Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Related How evil can Clark be and still be cut slack?

I hope you don't! I love them too. If I could... I would change my middle name to ...

I don't think I could ever see Lois as a nun though. Now a really kick butt vampire slayer... that I could see. (as we saw in Shayne's buffy cross over fic)

Key point was that I did not have any problem with anyone writing a vampire fic. My issue was I don't want to read it.

Example warning:
So I did not read it.

I agree with Patrick.

I cannot debate at all on this issue, because I am not familiar enough with vampires to debate. Why? Because I choose not to read them. That should be my choice. I get huffy when they're foisted on me by an author, in the same way that I get huffy when an author slams immorality into the last scene. Normally, I just silently quite reading, but I can't say that I'm not offended when it comes without foreshadowing or warning.

I don't think there's anything wrong with a reader saying, "Don't foist your immorality on me." I don't even think it's wrong to say it with enthusiasm.

I want to thank those of you who quit yelling at Patrick about that, since he never asked for anything to be sensored, but instead asked for the ability to make informed consent.

Elisabeth

Of course, one man's immorality....

It's perfectly fine to state that you don't like a particular plot theme or genre or story. So long as it's done with politeness.

However, telling the author that their character is 'scum', simply because you don't like those plot choices, is perhaps a little less polite than we tend to encourage on this forum and Patrick was - rightly imo - taken to task for that.

And, frankly, Elisabeth, to accuse an author of being immoral simply because you don't like their story would very much be treading across the line of flaming imo. It's a personal insult, rather than a critique of plot or characterisation.

I tend to applaud Laura's attitude to all of this. When all is said and done, please do recognise that all we are talking about here are some fictional stories. I can understand getting riled up when things don't suit you - I've closed down many a story file myself with a grimace of annoyance or disgust because I didn't like where the author took the story - but there are many more serious injustices and horrors going on out there in the real world to get fired up about than fanfic, at the end of the day. And it seems utterly pointless to me to create ill feeling or go around insulting people just because of a fanfic.

Let's put this into some perspective.

LabRat

ETA: I see that Labby posted while I was writing this, and she covered much of the same ground. But I'll leave it up here just in case...

***

But Elisabeth, the point is that there are no rules requiring authors to post any kind of warning. You have your own areas of discomfort about a certain number of items; another reader may feel fine with all of those, but have an equal number of other subjects that are taboo for them. How can authors possibly give enough warnings to satisfy the varied tastes and sensitivities of the readers?

I can understand if you or Patrick - or anyone here - reads a story and there's something that made you exceptionally uncomfortable, if not downright distressed. There are certainly other readers here who have experienced that, but the decision, debated many times, is to not make warnings mandatory.

I never interpreted Patrick's post as trying to censor the subject matter, but simply that he felt a WHAM warning must be posted. Even if WHAM warnings were mandatory, you can see from different responses that a WHAM for him isn't necessarily the same as a WHAM for others.

And here I would say again that the issue is that something that is "immoral" to you is not necessarily to me, or to others on the mbs. I can't speak directly to Laura's story because I've only skimmed it, as I have all the vampire fics posted in the past weeks, because they're not really my thing. I will admit that what I did see was very well-written, so I may get sucked in in spite of myself. I don't think there is anything wrong with you posting feedback and saying something alongs the lines of "I found the presence of xxxxxxxxxxxxxx in this story disturbing, because of my xxxxxx beliefs in xxxxxxxxx and xxxxxxxxx". That lets the author know something that you didn't like and why you didn't like it. But I personally was concerned by your use of the term "foisting" - I think of authors as sharing their stories with us, in large part to entertain us and share their love of L&C. I don't think they're using them to try to force their way of thinking upon us.


Kathy

LOL - and here I was just thinking, Kathy, that you'd made some excellent additional points.

LabRat

I agree that just because most of us tend to 'close' story that contains horror and death (especially when it is committed by the hero of the story), doesn't mean that such a story should not exist.

Nor does it mean that such a story is not well-written or should be condemned.

It is just another genre that exists. And I agree that such stories should be given a BIG HUGE warning so that readers know what is in it.


'Kudos' Labby! (as everybody call you)
Well said!

Please, don't put words in my mouth. I never said so-and-so is immoral. I said that the story pushes that on people.

When a person talks about right and wrong, they are said to foist their morality on a person. However, there is the flip side that when no warning is given, they've just had something offensive shoved into their faces. I try to avoid that which offends me. I tend to stay silent when I'm offended and just discontinue reading. But that doesn't mean that, simply because this board doesn't require it, it isn't polite to post a warning--particularly in this case where the mere subject pushes the envelope of PG-13. Most vampire movies are rated higher than PG-13 and are catalogued as horror. It's rude to take something that is categorized by the industry as horror and post it to a PG-13 board without warning--even if this part didn't contain anything graphic.

Patrick is fully within his rights to ask them to post a warning. I am fully within my right to support him. And I am not intending to flame anyone. I am simply passionate about my desire to keep my heart clean. I don't want to be influenced by that, Labby. I can't simply pass that off as fluff, because once it's in my mind I can't take it out again.

You act as if this is all a big gray area, but both readers and authors alike know when they're treading on shaky ground: deathfics, on-screen sex, rape, and other emotional issue. Vampire stories are, in essence, deathfics. So please don't act like it's a wishy-washy matter of opinion whether they're offensive or not. Let the reader make a fully-informed choice.

Elisabeth

Maybe you haven't read the threads that have discussed deathfics, Elisabeth. It's been debated more than once, but it's been decided that warnings are not necessarily for anything, including deathfics. It's entirely up to the author to choose whether or not to post a warning. Unless a majority of board members rise up in rebellion against this policy, I think it will stand.

As I said in my previous post, my impression was that Patrick was demanding a warning and complaining that one had not been given. That is more than merely asking, but perhaps I interpreted it differently than others did. In any case, it's the author's choice.

Kathy

To answer the original question...

No, he could not be a good guy, IF he killed the others to eat them. If he waited until they died naturally and then ate them, then yes, he could still be a good guy.


As for the rest of this thread.

There is no harm in Patrick asking for a warning. Demanding yes, asking, no.

As for 'foisting', I will not speak on Elisabeth's behalf, as that way leads to things I don't want to think about. However, I can speak on my feelings about authors that don't give clear warning.

(fair warning, my '!' are for emphasis alone.)

As several authors know, I really hate it when LnC have pre-marital sex. I have always hated it. To me, that cheapens Superman and everything he stands for. Or, at least, stood for up to and including our beloved show.

I feel 'conned' when I am reading a really good story, and in the last screen of the last part, they sleep together. Pardon me, but I mentally go "AAARRGGHH!" when that happens and the story is totally ruined for me.

Case in point. ShayneT's story 'Duet' is a perfect example and I know is one of the stories my beloved is thinking about. We loved that story. We were rooting for the characters. And then in the last page, it was ruined, for us. That is what I would call Bait and Switch. We read and read and read, each chapter better than the last and then, blech!

Don't get me wrong, I love Shayne's writing. He is one of the best on this board and I am sooo glad he is writing again. But, in all honesty, Elisabeth and I felt gut punched.

I realize that by revealing that little fact would 'ruin' it for other readers that like that kind of thing. However, it was one of the things that started me reading less and less of stories here. I just didn't want to take the chance of being disappointed again.

Infact, I just PMed Laura about F&I with my soon to be normal question I will start asking the authors from now on. If I can't have a warning, I will just have to be cautious and ask before reading.

James

I will let Patrick speak for himself. But I think the authors know when they're in a gray area. Whether they should be required or not is for a different discussion, but I believe it is polite.

Elisabeth

Okay, I really don't like to get into these types of discussions. For one, not much bothers me. I always try to have the attitude that "to each their own." But these last few posts did make me pause.

As a newbie author, I must admit that reading this thread is a little discouraging. I'm starting to feel like I need to keep a list of different warnings for all the things that might end up in one of my stories. I completely understand that there are things that people feel strongly about--their morals, ideals, and beliefs.

But does this mean that if I don't add a warning that the characters in my story might have sex before marriage, or that a character will die, or that a character will be a vampire, or that a character will lie or steal, or that a character will commit adultery, or that a character will get drunk, or that a character will...

As you can see, that list can become really long.

I'm becoming worried that anytime I post a story, or a part to a story, I might unknowingly step on someone's toes, because for me, there are plenty of gray areas--what I see as treading on shaky ground could be a completely different concept for someone else.

Another point that I'd like to make is that an author might not always know where their story is going when they first start writing it. An example would be my story, Exposure. I've pretty much made most of it up as I went along, even going so far as to write scenes way toward the end. And in this story, I do have an ending scene where Lois and Clark make love before they are married. I hadn't planned for it to end that way back in the beginning, but as I wrote even further into the story, my muse struck again with another idea and it just seemed to work.

I'd also like to point out that on the issue of immorality, not everyone will view it in the same light. I used to view sex as something that was completely off limits until marriage. But my past experiences--ones that I won't even begin to go into--has shaped that belief into something different--something involving gray areas.

I sincerely hope that I've expressed myself clearly enough. Another main reason I stay out of these types of discussions is because I feel that I have a difficult time putting into words what I'm trying to get across.

And this post is in no way implying that readers shouldn't feel strongly about certain themes or genres. I'm only pointing out that what one reader might feel strongly about, another author might not even think twice about. It doesn't necessarily mean that the author was being rude not to include the warning, it just might mean that the author has different ideas, beliefs, and morals than the reader, and maybe the author didn't think a warning was necessary.

And I can't speak on behalf of all authors, but I know that I wouldn't be offended if a reader emailed me and asked some questions regarding a story I was posting. I'd rather give away the plot to the reader and have them quit reading, rather than step on any toes in the future.

Because there are so many different readers with so many different tastes, that how can we, as authors, really know what kinds of warnings to put up? Furthermore, should we start posting the first part of our stories with the title "warnings page?"

I'll quit my rambling now. This is my 10 cents (I couldn't possibly keep it to 2 )

This comment makes me stop and take pause, too. I think "shaky ground" is something open to interpretation for both reader and author, especially in the gfic folder. If the mandate is PG-13 or below, you're only going to get so much leeway to begin with (for the author) and you're going to have a certain amount of safety (for the reader) in knowing it's not going to be overtly violent/sexual, etc. There is a separate folder for stories of more graphic nature. If you pare down the gfic folder, at a certain point, it becomes nothing more than Disney tales.

One of the most beloved and debated stories on here is "Faustian Bargain," which was written both as gfic and nfic. The story contains more than one of what is being considered "shaky" perimeters, but that is what makes it such an intricate piece of writing. I can say the same about "For the Greater Good," which is a beautiful, emotional story, and yet somehow falls into "shaky ground."

People have asked me if I am going to turn my story, "Inside Out," into gfic. The thing is, the sex between Lois and Clark -- and yes, it is premarital -- is a key factor in the story, and I don't see how I can keep the integrity of the story if I take out certain elements. But that doesn't make my story -- or anyone else's containing similar content --immoral. Besides, what some may find as completely reprehensible may be a huge draw to others. After all, the nfic folder certainly gets a lot of traffic.

I think any time that someone is brave enough to pick up a pen or a keyboard and try writing a story based on a legacy as storied as Superman and/or Lois and Clark, they're to be commended.

And furthermore, as someone who writes "George and Lynn" stories, which I am fully aware are not allowed here, and who knows, may not even be allowed to be mentioned here, I know what it is like to have your story labeled, and it's not a good feeling. If you open some of these stories, it will take all of two seconds to figure out that it's not about Lois and Clark and/or what you were looking for and you can close it and move on. As far as I am concerned, labeling stories serves one purpose and one purpose alone: to mark someone's work as something that someone may feel is undesirable and therefore serve a warning to people. It casts judgment on a story before it is even read.

Imagine if every book at Barnes & Noble came with color-coded dots that indicated whether the book would have sex, violence, emotional angst or anything else. I daresay a lot more people would just wait for the movie version.

I wasn't demanding, rather I was whining. I read this story that started really well and ran right off the edge of the building and dropped 30 floor and hit the sidewalk hard.

So I was whining that no one warned me. I suppose I was spoiled by the folks who have done vampire stuff recently.

Then I got into an off topic debate in the feedback because people have been desensitized and did not see why I felt like I'd been sucker punched.

So it got out of hand and I started a thread elsewhere so I could explain why it bothered me so much without dumping on Laura's story.

I am not trying to push my moral point of view. I have a very ridge view of morality. I do not however believe I have the right to impose my morals onto other people without their consent.

Nor do I think anyone CAN impose morality from outside.

My point in asking "How evil can Clark be and still be cut slack?" was to explore what the general feeling on this subject is.

Am I being unreasonable in asking for a warning for what I think was a major wham?

By the nature and tone of the response clearly I was being unreasonable.

It turns out the problem is the classic fish in water story. The water is transparent to the fish.

And there we part company. That Clark is in my opinion scum. Period. That the author does not agree is their right and it is your right to disagree but by my values he is scum.

Tough. Someone wants to excuse him, justify his killing people, bloodlust or not, for his own selfish longing. Go for it. But I don't want to read a story where that behavior is ever justified.

Let's make it clearer. How would you feel about a story where Clark was an active pedophile and the author felt that he was still a good guy? And the author did not think it needed a wham warning?

Now do you see how I felt?

Anyways it is clear that the only reason there was no wham warning was that it just never occurred to Laura that it might bother someone.

And it is clear from the response that she is in the majority. So I'll just be more careful, wait for the first FDK thread and check it out PRIOR to reading a new story.

catching up on last night's posts:)

Just a small point - I'm curious about why Patick has been censured for using the word 'scum' to describe the Clark Kent of the vampire story while another poster was not censured at all for calling Patrick 'rude' and 'immature' ?

How we use language is so important. As a few people have pointed out to me, I don't use language very well. But I do try to improve (most of the time )

As for the warning thing, I'm not as certain it's as a grey an area as depicted in the previous posts, although it's certainly not clear cut either.
(forgive the mixed metaphor )

But it's my impression from people's comments and fdk on fics that most people on these boards would agree on this narrow definiition of "death-fic": it's one in which either Lois and/ or Clark dies.

Where the 'greyness' enters is over whether that narrow definition should be extended to other characters -secondary ones like Martha, Jimmy, or Luthor, new characters created in the course of a fic etc. For some, if there's a death in the fic, it's ... a Deathfic! (using exclamation points is my new guilty pleasure )

How we read is important , as well.
For example, I didn't get any sense that Elisabeth was trying to "foist" her values on anyone else, but was explaining what those were and how it affected her reaction to fanfics. Nothing wrong with that - it's interesting to know, imo. Just as it's interesting to know why some people react differently to deathfics than other readers, or to kid-fics or crossovers.

The warning thing: it's forever a circuitous argument about the reader's feelings versus the writer's ego. Both are valid. Most writers are now up front with "the" deathfic warning which many of us shallow types who can't handle death appreciate.

This new custom of posting a suggestion that you might want to check the warning at the end of the story is really good idea - the best of both worlds. Although it won't work for multi-part stories, so it's not perfect.

One more ramble - would some people be as put-off by a Clark Kent/Superman who had red hair, freckles and was an inch or two below the average height of an American male, as some are by a Clark Kent/Superman who kills for purely personal reasons?

For example, I understand that a lot of fanboys didn't like Dean Cain as Superman because he had brown eyes, and the biggest flaw of all - he was too short.

Anyway, fuzzy early morning rambles.

c.

James said:

Patrick said:

I think these are both very sensible ideas. Personally, I would probably elect to include a general caution or summary if I thought I was posting something significantly out of the mainstream or something that touched on one of the hot-button issues in this forum, but I am very unlikely to include a detailed "warning" about every single thing that someone might find offensive in my story. Even if I were inclined to do that, which I'm not, as several here have pointed out, we all have different ideas of what's offensive anyway, and I'm sure I'd miss something. As long as my story is properly rated and conforms to the requirements of the board, I think the burden must be shifted to the readers to take responsibility for their own reading material.

Patrick's decision to use the FDK threads as a guide is something I've been doing for as long as I've been reading fan fiction. I haven't read Laura's story because, while I enjoy her writing very much, I have zero interest in reading about vampires and kind of a narrow definition of what sorts of AU scenarios work for me. I knew it was a vampire story from the posting of the first comment, so I gave it a miss.

And while as an author I won't post a detailed warning, I would be very happy to respond to a PM from someone who wanted to know if certain elements were likely to appear in the story. And I do usually know with a fair degree of accuracy what even a long story is likely to contain, so please feel free to ask away. But I simply can't know which of those included elements is likely to offend which readers. Just trying to remember which of my kids likes mayonnaise and which doesn’t is kind of taxing to this poor old tired brain these days.

Of course, a final option is to wait and read the story once it's been archived, assuming it is. The content will be set in stone, as it were, and the summary will provide at least a hint as to what the story is about. If anything there raises concern, an e-mail could be sent to the author. I have no desire to foist my writing on someone who doesn't want to read it or might be made uncomfortable by it, and I doubt any of the other authors here do either. The reluctance to post detailed warnings stems from a disinclination to spoil the story for the people who do want to read it - not because I want to "trick" someone into reading it who is likely to find it offensive.

As a reader, I've always assumed that the burden was on me to manage my own reading. And yes, there are certain themes that are just absolute deal-breakers for me, and there have been times I've been frustrated by getting deep into a story and then having one of those deal-breakers rear its ugly head. But ultimately, I come down on the side of the authors' right not to spoil their stories with tons of warnings. Unless and until the moderators of this board start requiring detailed warnings to be appended to each and every story, readers who have specific content concerns might just have to take extra steps to make sure they avoid that content. Fortunately, there are several ways already in place to do that.

Best,

Caroline

EDIT

You know actually... I'm not getting into this anymore. I should have just stepped away when I did.