Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Related Grammar For Dummies

Okay, I'm a little hesitant to post this because... Well, I'm about to show just how much of a grammar dummy I am, but... Well, surely I'm not really the only one. Okay, so here goes... (wish me luck )

I always try to read all the grammar questions posted on these boards, because I figure that if I could just learn grammar, I could improve my writing. Anyway, having said that, and given the brilliant grammarians (is that even a word?) we have here, I was wondering if anyone would be up for trying a little game (for the grammar idiots like me who are out here).

Now, one of my big problems is that often when trying to explain grammar, people will talk about things like... Let me give you an example. From the comma thread, I’ll start with a quote from the very first post. Artemis wrote:

Things like that, while I assume they are very useful, leave me scratching my head and saying, ‘What the hell is an adverbial dependent clause?' So... what to do?

Now, do any of you remember when you were in grade three or four and the teacher would write a sentence on the blackboard and then instruct the students to tell all the parts of the sentence?

Example:

Clark ran fast.

Okay, now let’s see if I can remember this (remember the title of the thread so don’t laugh if I get it wrong - and no, I’m not joking ):

Clark - noun (also the subject)
Ran - verb - past tense.
Fast... uhh... okay, object? Also... adjective? Or... uhh... adverb? No, adjective... I think. Or... maybe not .

(As you can see, I need a lot of help )

All right, so if anyone out there is interested in this game, this is how it would work. A person would post a sentence. The next person would come along and dissect the sentence and then, post a new sentence.

Now, as you can see, at least for grammar dummies like me, it would be nice to start fairly simply. But... Well, what are compound verbs and past perfect tenses and adverbial dependent clauses and... well, whatever else you can think of? Who are the truly brilliant grammarians among us? (I can tell you right now it isn’t me ).

So... what do you think? Anyone out there interested in seeing if we can all improve our grammar together (or at least if grammar idiots like me can)? Or is this a really, really stupid idea?

ML

Ooh! Me, me, me! Pick me!

I'm a bit of a mediocre grammarian, and I think this would be really fun.

When I was in eighth grade, we had "The Shurley Method" for learning grammar (a lot of the kids in the class called it the "Hurley Method"), and there were all these questions that were supposed to help you learn what the parts of the sentence were. The first question always was "Who, or what, is the sentence about?"

So, going with the sentence you gave as an example, I'd go:

Who, or what, is the sentence about? Clark - subject, proper noun (at least, I THINK a name is a proper noun . . . it might just be a pronoun . . . it's been a while since I did the Shurley Method)

What is being said about Clark? Clark ran - verb

Clark ran how? fast - adverb describing "ran"

By the by, here's how to tell whether something is an adjective or an adverb:

Adjectives answer the questions:
-What kind?
-Which one?
-How many?

While adverbs answer:
-How?
-When?
-Where?

Okay, here's my sentence:

Perry White did not become the editor of a major metropolitan newspaper because he could yodel.

ETA: JUST KIDDING! I don't think I could even remember all the questions to get the parts of that sentence . . . but if you want to take a whack at it just for kicks, go right ahead! Here's the REAL sentence:

Lois and Clark made out above the clouds.

OOOOH I'm an idiot when it comes to describing parts of a sentence. I just know what a noun is off the top of my head and I have to pause for a verb. It's just not something I had to memorize since grade 7. Even then we didn't get complicated.

Grade 7...12 years old...WOW, that's a few years shy away from twenty years. That hit me like a brick wall.

I unfortunately have nothing to offer other than, I don't think it's a dumb idea and I'm a grammar fool.

Okay, I'm going to give this a shot (deep breath). BUT I NEED SOMEONE TO TELL ME IF I'M RIGHT.

Lois, Clark, clouds - all nouns
Made out - compound verb - past tense
the - a definite article
above - preposition?
and - conjunction

(Another deep breath)

Lois and Clark - the subject
above the clouds - going by your Shurley method, DSD, this answers the question of 'where' so... I'd guess that this might be the adverbial dependant clause that Artemis spoke about.

That means that if 'above the clouds' was put at the beginning of the sentence, it would require a comma - as in: 'Above the clouds, Lois and Clark made out.'

So... how did I do? Did I get it? Do I get to come up with another sentence? (If I made any mistakes, the person who knows the right answer gets to come up with a new sentence)

ML

(All this is prefaced by "if I remember my 8th grade English correctly")

Actually, because "above" is a preposition, "above the clouds" is a prepositional phrase. "Above" is the preposition, and "the clouds" is the object of the preposition.

Technically "out" is an adverb/preposition too, but "made out" is an idiom so it doesn't really get analyzed literally. It's not really a compound verb, though.

Kaylle

Kaylle's right - "clouds" would be the object of the preposition, but OP's are nouns, so I'd say ML got it right enough to pose the next sentence.

An adjective describes a certain attribute of something. Such as hig, big, low, beautiful...

Usually this something is a noun.

For example: She is a beautiful singer.

The suffix -ly after one of this words usually turns it into an adverb. An adverb is descibing a verb. The name says it really.

For example: She sings beautifully.

In school I had a lot of problems with this, and so I figure that you do too. I mean you wouldn't say *She sings beautiful*, cause you know your language. But you don't have to think about it.

Prepositional phrase - okay, now I have a new thing to add to my list of phrases.

Compound verb - still obviously don't understand what that is. But hopefully I will soon

Anyway, since Kaylle didn't give a sentence and Caroline thinks I was close enough to pose the next sentence, I'll give it a shot.

New sentence: Lois always loved flying with Superman.

ML

ok... so as there is no confusion... I will try and help out a little bit...
This is a big difference with what you had before (Ie a Proper noun)


a PROnoun is a word that takes the place of a noun
PRO coming from the Latin meaning FOR as in swapping this for that

In essence: He, She, It, They, Them, We, are all pronouns
Can you think of more?

So in the sentence (The best way to learn these grammatical rules):
Lois and Clark were flying above the clouds; they were kissing at the same time.

L&C are [B]Proper nouns [B]
were flying [B]imperfect past tense...[B] because we do not know if they are still flying...
above the clouds [B] I forget but was mentioned above... [B] hihi
NO CONJUNCTION due to the use of a semicolon....

THEY [B]Pronoun[B]
were kissing [B] still in the past-imperfect tense [B]\
At the same time [B]I think is an adverb, as it describes the time sequence of the flight and kiss...[B]


A rule of thumb for PROPER nouns, is that these nouns are written with a Capitol letter anywhere in the sentence...
As in People's Names, The Plannet (short for THe Daily Plannet) Place names such as Metropolis (which in reality the fictional city was just named Metropolis because it literally means Large City... so if I were to write Ney York is a modern Metropolis, just as Athens and Rome were ancient metropolises )

[ ] hope this helps

OK, I'm going to try this, but I'm not sure if I'm right!

Lois always loved flying with Superman.

Lois - subject noun (proper)
always - adverb
loved - verb (past tense)
flying - gerund/direct object
with - preposition
Superman - object of the preposition/proper noun

I'm pretty sure of everything except the "flying" but I kind of guessed at that.

Someone let me know how I did!

MLT, a compound verb is something like have been, or will be, or such, where two verbs are used together. Tenses of verbs like past perfect describe the way you are speaking the verb like will be swimming, will swim, will have swam, will have been swimming, have been swimming, and so on. I'd have to check to remember which tenses have which combinations, but that is the general idea.

Caroline, I think you categorized flying correctly.

Now I'll see if I can break down that sentence about Perry.

Perry White: full name-proper noun
did not become: compound verb (see, MLT) with "negative" (I'm "not" sure what those "nots" are called)
the editor: definite article followed by the noun it describes.
of-preposition
a major metropolitan newspaper-prepositional phrase made up of an indefinite article and two adjectives describing a noun
because-conjunction
because he could yodel-dependent clause with a pronoun and a compound verb

As for an adverbial phrase, I think this is what it may describe.

Swiftly flying into Metropolis , Superman searched the city for criminal activity.

My ability to diagram a sentence is lost in the mists of time, but I found what looks to be a very nice online resource: http://www.englishgrammar101.com/Lessons/Default.aspx

Artemis

Actually, a compound verb is when two verbs are happening to the same subject, usually separated by a conjunction, such as "Bob jumped and yelled when Judy tickled him."

"Jumped and yelled" is the compound verb. And "when Judy tickled him" is an adverbial clause.

Verbs like "have been" or "will be" are another type of verb, and the first verb in the group is a "helping verb."

Superman is not only the object of the preposition, and a proper noun, but in this case is also the indirect object.

That doesn't seem quite right to me . . . let me see if I can crack it myself now.

Let's see . . .

Perry White did not become the editor of a major metropolitan newspaper = dependent clause
Perry White = the subject of the sentence, also a proper noun. (thanks for straightening me out on proper vs. pronouns!)
did become = verb + helping verb
not = adverb describing "become"
editor = direct object of "become"
the = article adjective
of a major metropolitan newspaper = prepositional phrase, also the whole phrase is an adjective describing "editor"
of = preposition
newspaper = object of the preposition
metropolitan = adjective describing "newspaper"
major = adjective also describing "newspaper"
a = article adjective
a major metropolitan newspaper = indirect object
because = conjunction
he could yodel = independent clause
he = subject pronoun
could yodel = verb and past-tense helping verb

This is fun - and I've been learning a lot - especially from the website you directed us to, Artemis.

But Gerry just sent me an email telling me that I'm not allowed to learn grammar anymore - that it's taking up valuable writing time . And since she used to be an English teacher, and has been helping me with my writing for years, I guess I have to do what she says .

So... although I'd really love to learn grammar, I guess I'm destined to remain ignorant .

ML

Artemis

THE is known as a definite article...

Which in essence means the use of the word THE defines which object is in question...

i.e.
The Cat that lives on Elm Street ate my fish
It was THE cat living on Elm Street as oposed to any other cat...
out of all the cats who could of possibly ate my fish, it was the one that lives on ELM

Vs the indefinite article ("A")

A cat that lives on Elm...
It was one of many cats living on Elm...

SO I went into THE Wal-Mart down Town..

Identifies a particular Wal-Mart

Whereas...
I went into (A) Wal-Mart down town
does not specify which particular store you visited, only that it was from the Wal-Mart chain of stores....


In English the indefinite article (a) is often left out, and is qually correct, unless one is trying to specify a particular number of items... such as in my CAT eating FISH example...

THE Cat from Elm street ate fish...
THE CAT who lives on Elm (only one cat in our sample lives on Elm, possibly others that live elsewhere), ate fish...

The CAT from ELm ate A fish...
as fish can be either singular or plural the indefinite article helps to specify a number of fish, A as oposed to TWO, or THREE fish...


I believe that many asian languages do not have any articles, definite or indefinite, thus we get many lovely examples of poor translations that read like pigeon...found all over the web...

Actually Darcy, I think that Perry sentence is kind of grammatically weird, because the part that ends with newspaper is the independent clause. It could stand by itself as a sentence. It's not true, which is why the sentence is weird. Because the because starts the he could yodel phrase, that is dependent. (Because he could yodel) would make no sense as a sentence by itself.

I suppose if you to rewrite the sentence as

Perry White could yodel, but this is not why he became the editor of the daily Plannet
would then give you an independant clause... He became the editor of the DP

(BUT THIS IS NOT THE BEST EXAMPLE< I AM JUST TRYING TO REWORK THE SENTENCE... it is not really the best example, becaues the phrase is intended in its use to emphasise Perry's other talents...

So a better example would be:
PW was the best EIC the Plannet had ever had because he knew the comings and goings of all his reporters, keeping up to date with every comma as it was written.

HERE this is an independant clause as Perry's knowledge of his reporters would make sence as a sentence, but in tying the sentences together we gain more information as to the bigger picture

EDIT:
Whereas with: Keeping up on every comma as it was written:

Is a dependant clause that describes Perry as he is keeping an eye on his reporters

Yeah, I knew it was grammatically weird. But I was going on "he could yodel," in other words, leaving off the conjunction, as the independent clause. And since we know that Perry DID become the editor of the DP, then "Perry White did not become the editor of a major metropolitan newspaper" can't really be independent, can it?

Or can it?

Oi. I confuse myself.

He could yodel is an independent clause, but with the because in front, it becomes dependent. You can't really separate a clause from the conjunction that precedes/describes it. That is why it is weird. Even though the sentence, "Perry White did not become editor..." is untrue, it can stand alone as a sentence. Grammatically, "(Insert name) did not become editor of a major metropolitan newspaper." would be a good sentence, and true except for a few select names that actually DID. In some ways, they are dependent on each other. In fact, that may be a rare grammar case. With the conjunction because, you could have two dependent clauses that can form a sentence when used together.