Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Related Why no "Lois moving on" fics?

That’s okay. I really thought it was mine since it rather reflects some of my feelings about the first season Lois.


Yes, I do.


Yeah, but after this episode, he turned into Lois’ doormat.


Forgot about that one. Good get, Clark.


I don’t remember that part. Weren’t they both working on the story? Independently?


No, I don’t think that.


Oh, I do have respect of Lois’ love of Superman. And yes it was real to her. I never doubted that. I like the fics that explore Superman breaking down and giving in to Lois’ love for Superman. So I wonder why when you see those few fics where Superman gives in to her and starts a relationship with her (as Superman) that folks say he is being dishonest with her because he is not telling her he is Clark Kent? Is that any more dishonest than Clark keeping the fact from her that he is Superman? (And I’ve been writing one… shameless plug. It’s on the nfic side.)


Yes, I suppose you are right - at least when he rejected her. He was hurting, but he shouldn’t have hurt her in return. He could have told Lois that he knew she would not love him the same if he was just a normal man instead of saying.. “Under the circumstances…”


I never meant to insinuate that.


No, I don’t dislike Lois. Really, I don’t. I disliked the first season Lois. And while I know a lot of the Folcs here are strictly LnC fans, I’m not. I like all the genres of Superman, so that’s why I say that for me, Clark is the main character. And hey, I’m not the only one that feels that way (even among the LnC fans).


I thought the same thing. I’m seeing you on the boards more now, ML, so I hope that means you are feeling better and able to sit better.


Yes, I agree that it’s a great avenue of exploration.


That’s true, but it was still actually left up in the air what would have happened. Remember he also went on record to say they would have a kid that suddenly grew into a teenager as happened on Angel. (And god forbid that should have happened….)


Exactly.


I don’t want to see her punished either. But I do enjoy elseworld fics where something totally different happens - be it with Clark or Lois.


No, I don’t dislike Lois. I disliked things that she did. I also disliked things Clark did, but not as much as I disliked the things that Lois did.

I mentioned this before I read this part of your feedback. Well… I’d think it would be pretty stupid. Have you watched how cheesy it was on Angel? But there was a fic that I recently read that sort of dealt with this. It’s a short fic called Superman’s Pajamas and is available on the archive.


Well, in this particular thread I was expounding on ‘Lois getting some of her own medicine’. I’m not a Lois basher really. But when I watched the first season sometimes I just wanted to reach into the screen and strangle her. She was just so different that any Lois I had ever come across. It bugged me. It still does. Man, if I’d ever treated one of my male co-workers the way Lois treated hers, I bet I would have gotten in trouble. She did change and soften, and I would have loved to see that continue in a fifth season. I really like the Lois in the fourth season. She still had her edge, but she was kind and thoughtful and didn’t have the overpowering urge to be always be cruel. But I’ve read threads where people say that they don’t like this softer, nicer Lois. To me, that sweet Lois was the real Lois. And I thought she was more in line with Loises from other genres.


If I write one, will you read it? Will anyone?


Mxyzptlk


Well, I seem to be good for doing that myself…. So, no I don’t mind, but I will defend myself in again saying that I was expounding on ‘Lois getting some of her own medicine’.


Why the women, of course.


Okay, Ann, what you said sounds remotely like something you said in another thread that you started and I don’t believe many folks agreed with you. Now please don’t think I’m being harsh. I don’t even know what the outcome was in that thread because quite frankly I stopped reading it.


And as you well know, Ann, we agreed to disagree on the subject of Lois (and Clark) a long time ago.


I disagree with this. I’ve found far more acceptance and ‘protection’ from the women (both wonderful friends and family) in my life than from the men (including friends and family).

Hmmm... still an interesting thread.

Yes...that was when I lost interest in Angel for a long time and although I went back to it eventually, I never quite enjoyed it as much as before the awful Connor.

You'll have noted, of course, that Tim Minear was responsible for Connor. I guess having been cheated out of writing this story arc for LNC, he resurrected it when he went on to work on Angel. So he got his way in the end.

It's this plan that sometimes makes me glad we never got a fifth season. I don't think I could have taken this plot on my favourite show. I kind of feel LNC escaped poor Angel's fate.

LabRat

Thanks, Nancy, for taking the time to expand your thoughts.

Honestly... no. As I've said before, I'm no more interested in dead-Clark, Lois moves on fics than the reverse. But I would expect all those readers who like the dead-Lois, Clark moves on fics would read it - think it's a genre preference thing.

re Ann's theory about men and women - historically, on a very broad scale, it's born out by the repressive laws in effect in most ancient, and pre-modern civilizations (so-called ) For example, the UK- married women weren't legally permitted to own property until 1872, couldn't divorce their husbands for adultery (or any reason) although a man could divorce his wife for adultery. Custody of the kids, in the very unlikely case of a divorce went automatically to the husband. A woman's evidence was not accepted in a court or law, a man could legally beat his wife, etc., etc. This, of course, had a significant impact on shaping woman's behaviour over the centuries.

Since everyone's eyes are now glazing over at the history stuff...

c.

Yes but she doesn’t acknowledge it to Clark and (presumable) to any others of her co-workers. Could you blame them for thinking her false and disrespectful?

That wasn’t as I saw it, Lois congratulated him on out manuvering her for the story, essentially being a greater bitch then herself, But Clark of course didn’t care about the story, he just tried to show her that was goes around comes around. But that went above her head, due to her self absorption.

The thing is that Lois is a seriously flawed character, She is pleasant enough when everyone adores her and things goes her way, but she has several traits that would make her rather unpopular in the lunch room I imagine. Clark OTOH seems like the perfect son in law, handsome, pleasant, kind, committed I don’t find it strange that women would take his part(several fics have worked with this too, everyone at the Daily planet automatically assume that any discord is Lois fault.)

We know that Lois bitchiness stems from insecurity not malice, she constantly has to prove that she is the best due to bad self-confidence, if someone else gets praise she takes it as criticism of her own work. That kind of people don’t get many friends. I think part of the reason Lois treats Clark so harshly is that she is taken by his looks and charm, but don’t care to fall for him.

This is how I see it too. That they have such a different outlook is what creates the dynamism between them. Lois is a very complex character, which I imagine is the reason she gets Clark’s attention. And Lois does mellow when she understand that someone loves her for who she is, not what she can do. And I agree with Nancy, Lois in the later episode was the woman she wanted to be.
At the same time Clark IS singularly unique, he is a god, she is human, to other people it’s not her own traits but superman s attention that makes her special. I’ve even see this realisation in some fic’s like in Wendy’s “Second thoughts” where she notice this herself.

You're Superman - the world needs you! Nobody needs me!" She saw him flinch, as if her words hurt him. "*I* need you," he told her, his voice husky. "*I* need you, Lois.."

a bit of a contradiction here, in your argument - she either acknowledges it, or not. Also I'm not sure viewers needed to see a literal newsroom pronouncement: "Clark I was wrong". Lois's body language at the end said it all.

All I'm suggesting is that we apply the same 'rules' so to speak to Lois as we do to Clark. Nothing more. If we find reasons to rationalize Clark's bad behaviour, then let's do the same for Lois. Let's be fair.

One of the things I enjoyed about the show was that neither character was portrayed as perfect. That was one of the great things about the show. That, and the humour. Notice, too, that Lois is the butt of that humour, from Perry, Jimmy, and Clark, a lot more than is Clark. Were they being cruel to her? I don't think so, but if we're to be consistent in condemning a person's snarky comments, then we have to say yes.

I'm going to disagree with you there. Were he a god, he would be very boring, and I'd have stopped watching.

Lois and Clark's character flaws may have be different but they both had them. Let's not put Clark Kent on a pedestal.

c.

For if knowledge is power, then a GOD AM *I*!

... Sorry, wrong city.

Well, he can be a god and still be flawed. After all, look at the Greek and Roman gods with all of their flaws and petty jealousies. And heavens know that Clark is built like one. *fans self*

What was the topic again?

Good God , Karen, I never meant to suggest he wasn't a god, physically. Oh no, no. Blasphemy, heresy.

Fanning self, too. (recalling the towel scene....

but thinking Arwn didn't have that in mind

c.

Lois acknowledge Clark’s ruthlessness in going after the story, as she put it he “won” . Which is high praise indeed. But, Clark wanted to show her how it felt to be the victim of that behaviour, something she just doesn't get. Lois still thinks that it’s OK exploit other people to get what she want.

I’m all for that , I just wanted the point out that Lois personality is abrasive and just like in real life that means she will seldom get the benefit of the doubt.

As a Karen said, Nordic or Greek mythology, shows that gods doesn’t have to be boring or perfect. My point is that Clark holds all the power, he doesn’t have to accept anything that he doesn’t like, that he use that power with utmost restraint is simply a choice of his. He could do whatever he pleases with Lois, or anyone else.

for example? And what was Clark doing when he came on to Toni Taylor?

c.

He was UNDER COVER. His cover was a sailor who had just lost his job--the coming on to Toni Taylor bit was PART OF HIS COVER.

As for the part where he threw her into a dumpster, and the part leading up to it . . .

He didn't really have much of a chance to think of what to say before Toni came into the room there. True, what he did say (blowing Lois's cover) was a major faux pas, but we all know how much trouble Clark has with thinking of excuses/cover-ups under pressure (Cheese of the Month Club, anyone?).

As for the dumpster, the bouncer was WATCHING him. He had to do something difinitive, or be suspected himself.

From what I can tell, it looks like he was perplexed by Lois's treatment of him up to that point--they were partners, after all, and she was keeping things from him.

That whole episode was a case of crossed signals.

Lois thought Clark wanted to horn in on her story and take all the credit, but Clark was confused by everything she said along those lines because that WASN'T his intention.

He wanted to work WITH her on it, even AFTER he'd screwed up and blown her cover, but she wouldn't listen and kept berating him for the mistake he'd already admitted he'd made.

Good to know. Somehow I had the idea that you wanted to see one of these.


And yes, I understood Ann’s perspective from a historical standpoint, but it’s not like that so much anymore. (At least in the so called industrialized countries.)


Thank you!


Well, I’d have to say that’s true. It took guts for the woman to come back to the newsroom looking like she did. Most of us would have stopped by home and cleaned up…


Some folks have mentioned that Lois thought it was okay to steal others’ stories. And that does seem to be the case. But yet she was crushed because Claude did the same to her. Shouldn’t she have learned something there?


Yes, that seems fair. But Arawn is right (fair or not) - those with an abrasive personality will seldom get the benefit of the doubt.


Hmm... I'm not sure that coming on to Toni Taylor would be exploiting her. He didn't make her any false promises.

My point is that our current Western industrialized society has been around for just a short time, while humanity has been around for a long time. Honestly, I don't think the more primitive and subconscious parts of our brains really believe that we now live in a world where women don't have to cling to one strong male for their own protection. I think these parts of our brains keep telling us that it's dangerous for women to generally side with women against men, and that it is best for a woman's own safety to like and believe in the strongest of guys. And I believe that these parts of our brains read LnC fanfics too, and when they do they tell us that Clark can easily be forgiven for perhaps treating Lois dismissively, but Lois can't easily be forgiven for being dismissive of Clark.

But let me say for the record, too, that some aspects of first season Lois turn me off. Particularly her acceptance of Lex's proposal. "My" Lois simply wouldn't do that, which is why I don't like stories where a woman with "my" Lois's name is being punished for marrying Lex. I like it even less if a man with "my" Clark's name ends up happily married to someone else.

Ann

Coming back to my plea to "judge Lois" by the same standards we use for Clark.

Darcy's take on IGaCOY rationalizes everything that Clark did - it was all either reasonable or someone else's false. Thus he did very little wrong.

So to be fair to Lois:
Darcy wrote:
True he was undercover - but it was Lois who had *been* undercover up to that point - Clark shows up later, without having told her what he was planning, let alone consulting with her about it back at the Planet. If he genuinely respected her as a colleague, he would not have acted so unilaterally.

So what is going on here when he decides to go undercover? How to interpret it? That's when our biases kick in - is Clark arrogant here? Is he horning in on Lois's story? or is it that he doubts her ability to get the story? Or does he want to protect her ? A patriarchal notion, but let's face it, Lois is trouble-prone.

True. His flirting with Tony, kissing her later was all part of that- it was false and so, by definition, it was exploitative.
So what matters here -how do we look at it? It was exploitive but was it 'okay'? He suspects Toni is part of the Toasters and, also he wants the bartender job. So okay to use Toni because his motivation, to bust a criminal gang, is good? Did he need to cross the line into flirtation to accomplish his goals?

(Lois, btw, was also prepared to use her "sexual wiles" as Clark once accused her of doing (or was that "teased"? )

'Faux pas' is a very gentle term. So adorable that Clark Kent, with his difficulty coming up with excuses. We could also say it was stupid and thoughtless. He screwed up, but then used his mistake to remove his so-called partner from the front lines of the story. Maybe very clever on his part after all.

Anyway, i could rewrite Darcy's post , "spinning" it all from Lois's point of view .

Which has been my point all along. Let's try not to be so one-sided. Clark wasn't a saint.

Yes, it was. I enjoyed it. Although not the Toni taylor bit . (nor Clark's goatee!!) and throwing Lois in the dumpster was more force than was necessary. It was one of those moments of disconnect for me - he seemed to enjoy tossing her. (the other disconnect was the stalker stuff that he occasionally did)
But there was a lot of fun in the ep plus some good L & C banter - old movie, battle of the sexes, screwball comedy.

Nancy wrote:
lol - It's the reasons for the imbalance that interested me.
But death-fic and moving on fic are not for me, regardless of whether it's Lois or Clark. I stated this a couple of times earlier in the thread.

When? Aside from the incident I mentioned above and about which Lois was very upset afterwards, I can't think of any. So she had learned from Claude. (or perhaps it was something she knew all along?)

I'll repeat something else I've said before in the thread - I don't think Lois was perfect, either in S1 or in any other season. Nor was Clark. And it was that imperfection that made the show interesting. S1 Lois did a couple of things in S1 that appalled me; but so did Clark, although Clark's most appalling moments would come after S1

And what do words mean? One person's "assertiveness" is another person's "abrasive" and another's "feisty".

Yes, I think you have a point there, Ann. For example, we beat up on Lois for her insensitivity in asking Clark, after he's confessed his love for her, to find Superman. Yet, we don't beat up on Clark for dismissing Lois's love for Superman, something he's known for some time. Why the difference in treatment? ( Imo, neither were at their finest in these examples:) )

Looking back over this thread, I see that a lot of posters are Lois fans as well as Clark, but they're not the majority. Most posts in this thread reflect either an indifference or a hostility to the character of Lois Lane, and aren't prepared to cut her any slack at all. I wonder if that's true for most of the people on these boards? Anyway, I fold. it's been interesting reading people's posts.

c.

Boy, this reminds me of all those old 'True Defender' debates of yesteryear. Any other 'old timers' remember the various splinter groups of the past? I can remember we had TDOLL (True Defenders Of Lois Lane) and TDOCK (True Defenders of Clark Kent), but there were others that my memory is hazy on.

I've never been a fan of St. Lois or St. Clark. It's the very fact that we're dealing with two flawed human beings who make mistakes which makes the characters so attractive to me.

And I've always been very fond of S1 Lois. Like Clark, I think, I see her abrasiveness and almost manic hunger for success as a wall of armour concealing a vulnerable and desperately lonely soul. So I've always been willing to cut her a lot of slack.

As for Clark, it's the fact that he's striving so hard to be 'normal' and human, despite his powers and his alien origins, that endear him to me, so the mistakes he makes I'm willing to cut him some slack on, too, for the most part. *

I don't require my heroes to be perfect. It's their mistakes and flaws which make them interesting to me.

Which is just my perspective, of course. The above isn't in response to any particular previous post or pov or because I think anyone is trying to make Lois and/or Clark perfect.


LabRat

* Except for the fire hydrant. There are some mistakes I can't let slip past and I still think he deserved a good slapping for that one.

It seems I owe Lois an apology.

You got the story, _and_ you took me down a peg in the process. I guess I deserved that. You worked hard an earned your success.

She does seem to admit that stealing his story was wrong, even if she doesn’t gets right out and apologize, and the “you worked hard” might not have been for him successfully pulling her legs.

CC,
Breaking and entering, bribing, sabotaging other reporters work. How about, her eagerness to get a story out of the robbery of Clarks apartment?

Oh I don’t blame Lois for flirting with the bad guys. But too me it seem rather systematic, like say Dr Winniger, or Clark for that matter, if it’s something in it for her. Clark also seemed to be genuinely disappointed that Taylor turned out to be a rotten egg, as if he actually cared for her, to Lois the scuzballs are just that.

Lois didn’t want him there, he went there because he feared for her safety. That was how I interpreted blowing her cover too, by doing so she wouldn’t be exposed. So you might say that he didn’t respect her choices and judgment OTOH he does have some good reasons for that.

I saw it like that too, I think he was becoming rather exasperated, Lois simply didn’t care to cooperate with him, (not that I say she was obliged to).

If you had Lois Lane with her primadonna airs working in your office, do you think you would like her? Do you think your co-workers would like her?

I see nothing similar here. I never thought Clark dismissed Lois love for superman, there are several times he gives her input on how superman might see her. And he is certainly ready to bask in her adoration when he is feeling low. It’s just that he don’t believe she cares for Clark Kent and he can’t give her Superman because it’s a role he plays.

OTOH asking a guy that just confessed his love to you to go and fetch the man of your dreams is…cruel in the extreme, I even thought it OCC, even if Lois is self absorbed she shouldn’t be that insensitive.


Nancy,

But we know that she was distraught, that she says she had never done it before and blamed her obsession with Superman for it.

Labrat,
Exactly my interpretation, but most of the people around would just see her surface, It’s also why I find the gentler Lois of the last seasons a natural progression, she wasn’t lonely anymore.

I will admit that I haven't been fully following this thread but I think that the what has to be remembered is that everyone is basing their observations on what they saw on the television series. A series we all enjoyed, but have to reallize was written by writers who often exhibited a less than perfect record in writing our main characters with a consistant personality.

The needs of the storyline often overruled what would seem logical for the character.

Over the years it appears that part of the fun of this folcdom had been coming up with 'reasonable' explainations for the inconsistant behaviors that were written into scripts for the sake of plot.

Tank (who says that, at least, this varied behavoir gives fic writers a basis in 'canon' to allow actions to fit their own stories)

Absolutely. And, of course, it's not just LNC that suffered from that. It's a feature of almost every TV show out there.

It's that aspect from fans - of all my TV favourites, not just LNC - that I enjoy most, I have to say. Fun, indeed!

LabRat

Yes, which is why it's always seemed to me something of a fool's errand to draw conclusions from specific events or even entire episodes. Rather, draw back from the fine detail and take the long view - the broad impression the series leaves us with of the main characters.

Yvonne

Hmm... I believe I’m going to have to pull out IGaCOY and watch it again.


Well, it was mentioned that she tried to steal Clark’s story, and that’s why he sent her on the wild goose chase at the dump (or sewer plant).


The fire hydrant? You mean as in, “Look, there’s an elephant?”


Most people wouldn’t. Only those that had gotten under the surface.


I agree.


Yes, it is. I didn’t particularly think it was out of character for her though (but yeah, she shouldn’t have been that insensitive. - heck, she could have yelled for Superman from a rooftop.)


Yes, I can see that, too - at times. But did we really know that about her during strictly the first season? There were few glimpses into her softer side during that season (or at least few that I remember.)


That’s true, Tank.


Well, said, Yvonne.

I mean Superman interfering with city workers and setting off a fire hydrant just so the local kids can cool off in the heat in MoSB.

Stuart is a firefighter and each summer local kids setting off fire hydrants to cool themselves off are the bane of his and his colleagues' existance. It's not only anti-social, it's dangerous and puts lives at risk. It can cause water pressure to drop sharply in the immediate area, making it difficult for firefighters to do their job if there's a fire in the vicinity.

So every time I see Superman do it I want to slap him hard. Or throw something through the TV. It sets my teeth on edge every time. Fire hydrants are there for firefighters to put out fires, Superman! They ARE. NOT. SHOWERS! <g>

I've been known to complain about it a time or two on this forum.

LabRat (trying hard now to remember the elephant <g>)