Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Related Why is the smut locked in?

What exactly is that you think you are protecting minors from?

I don't want to offend anyone and it seems to me that if you have to go to the extra effort of getting a password, I know at the very least that you know what you're getting yourself into.

Well, the United States has quite a few laws and statutes involving obscenity, especially related to the distribution of sexually explicit material to minors, to the point where I think it's always better to be safe than sorry.

It's never been entirely about protecting minors. Partly it was to protect the fandom from splits and flame wars and general unpleasantness. And partly to protect us from legal hassles.

I get the whole protecting the fandom bit and the law, I'm just wondering why getting a novel that contains graphic sex in a drugstore is just so easy to get in comparison.

But this is about a half galaxy beyond safe. You can hardly click on an random internet link without being directed to a porn site.

I don’t know about what kind of adult filters you have for your kids, but I would be happy see any kid of mine reading in the Nfic section. Provided such vanilla smut could hold their attention.

Wouldn’t it simply be enough to label it as sexually explicit content?

This is kind of an everyone else is doing it so why can't we? argument. Which doesn't really work on the legal side of things. All it takes is one really irate parent.

Yes, but the problem is, Arawn, that this is your view. It's not everyone's view. You only have to look out in the real world and see what people complain about on TV and in the media to realise that what one person considers inoffensive another considers abhorrant and outrageous.

I've never been terribly impressed, either, I have to say with those click if you're over 18 buttons. They are pretty meaningless, since they rely on the honesty of the clicker to work.

Well, no, actually, because some stories in the nfic section don't contain any sex. They're there because they break the PG boundary in other ways - ie, they contain strong language and/or violence.

But I think that it also says something about the nature of our fandom - that we have respect for the wishes of people with varying viewpoints.

And it's not like the admins are making us perform a ritual sacrifice to get the password, on the contrary it's fairly easy, so what does having a password hurt?

I mustn’t have been very clear. I would think that it’s fairly obvious that obscenity laws you referred to doesn’t apply. Otherwise how could all those countless pornsites operate out of the US, without passwords?

As I said, the greater the difficulty to access the material the more people will dismiss it. I think there are plenty of people out there that pass over the Nfic because they can't be bothered with the registration.

For those of you that doesn’t know: the Nfic section contains vanilla sex between consenting adults virtually always tastefully done as a part of the love story.

It would have surprised me greatly if the nfic were pornographic and they weren’t, they just treated sex as the natural part of life it is. Sure there is a sexual romp here and there, but those are cute rather then arousing IMO.

Not always. As Yvonne said above, the Nfic section also includes especially violent fics that take them over the PG-13 rating. Not to mention, the sex portrayed isn't always "vanilla," whether it's between two consenting adults or not.

Also, I think it's strange that many people in this thread use the word "smut" as an all-'round term for Nfic. To me, "smut" is more on the line with "porn," "S&M," or even "rape," than with "vanilla sex" or "making love." Any thoughts?

Hmm. I have yet to read a fic which I find violent enough to garner an Nfic rating.

Sure, Nfic being called "smut" is a convention (and not just in L&C fic)--but couldn't the convention have been made around a word with a less negative--and in some people's minds--overly dirty (read: unneccesarily, almost disgustingly, kinky--as opposed to just kinky)--connotation?

But we've had countless debates on this one over the years and have yet to come to a concensus on what would be a suitable replacment, so it stays nfic until we do.

Really? I've always thought that nfic in every fandom garners more interest and enthusiasm than PG fic. The more you lock it down, the more allure it has and the more people are beating down the doors to get to it. I've certainly never had the impression it was "dismissed" by readers, here or anywhere else.

As Yvonne said above, the Nfic section also includes especially violent fics that take them over the PG-13 rating. Not to mention, the sex portrayed isn't always "vanilla," whether it's between two consenting adults or not.

Also, I think it's strange that many people in this thread use the word "smut" as an all-'round term for Nfic. To me, "smut" is more on the line with "porn," "S&M," or even "rape," than with "vanilla sex" or "making love." Any thoughts?

Chicks aren't wired that way. Mostly, chicks have to know something *about* the warm bodies on screen before it becomes anything but a fairly clinical *insert tab A into slot B* sort of a thing. Simply looking at people having sex is USELESS if I don't have some sort of clue about them, don't care about 'em, don't have an emotional investment in 'em. This is why a movie like, say, Dangerous Liasions or 9 1/2 Weeks is hotter for a chick to watch than something entitled "Reform School Sluts" even though the latter involves substantially more *ahem* pink bits on screen.
In addition, chicks like written porn. I do not know of *any* men who actually buy or read romance novels. Do not let the name fool you. These are fairly explicit, definitely strong lime, and, depending on the writer, fading well into lemon hues. [Lime: very strongly implied sex between characters but without graphic description of body parts and so forth. Lemon: graphically depicted sex between characters with explicit description of body parts.]
I'm sure you know the ones, with the raised shiny lettering for the title. They have a picture of a guy and a chick on the cover, chick probably in period costume, guy probably wearing black pants and a flowy white shirt that apparently stops buttoning at the navel. Odds are she's got her leg up around his waist, no doubt showing a considerable expanse of what will most definitely be referred to in the text of the thing as 'creamy thigh'.
Men do not buy these novels. Men do not, so far as I'm aware, *read* these novels. However, judging from the contents of my local bookstore, this is a genre which exceeds science fiction, westerns, mysteries, and fantasy in sheer volume of shelf space. Obviously, this stuff sells to someone. I submit that the 'someone' in question is chicks.
Now, given that chicks like to know something about the characters engaging in hot sweaty monkey sex *and* given that chicks like written porn, the average romance novel has to plow through fifty or so pages of 'getting to know the characters' before there's any sex. This takes time. (I'm getting to the point. Honest.)
Enter the fanfic.
Here are characters familiar to the reader. All the 'getting to know them' stuff is taken care of by actual canonical material (the television show, the anime episodes, whatever). These are characters that the reader already knows tons of stuff about. What they wear, how they act, what they look like, their beliefs, how they know each other. Lots of stuff. Heck, odds are that these are characters the reader *likes* on one level or another. I know I don't read fanfic for things I am not a fan of, anyway.
In fanfic, suddenly it becomes possible to skip straight to the 'good bits' without going through all the boring exposition and stuff first. The reader already KNOWS all the boring exposition. There is no real need to do all that. You can skip right to the sex part. From a chick perspective, smut fanfic is the heroin of porn. It's admirably quick, to the point, and still strangely satisfying (for the reasons pointed out above).

OK, but really are their anyone that finds Nfic section kinky today?

Obscenity laws in the US have always been a source of great contention. After all, who decides what is obscene?

And, as I said in my previous post, our experience is that some minors lie to get access to nfic. You might as well just not bother having the button at all and just have a free for all, for all the barrier they provide.

It hasn't been unknown in the past, for example, for the admins to be blasted with email from irate parents who have just discovered their little darlings reading nfic. (Although they have backed down sharply when we can show them proof - through the password/access application forms - that said little darlings lied their back teeth off about their age to gain access

I do remember being frustrated when I wasn't successfull in finding any Lois and Clark nfic I could read!

Also, I think it's strange that many people in this thread use the word "smut" as an all-'round term for Nfic. To me, "smut" is more on the line with "porn," "S&M," or even "rape," than with "vanilla sex" or "making love." Any thoughts?

Well, okay, maybe not "rape." But "smut" definitely has a MUCH less-innocent connotation for me than "consenting sex between adults" or "making love."

Although . . . come to think of it, I don't know of any other word besides "sex," or "sex fics" that might fit.

To me, smut definitely has a much less innocent connotation.

But, LabRat, as you previously said:

Yes, the n stands for naughty. It's a convention which I myself think is out of date. Back when it was coined the majority of nfic was, I believe, of the mind candy, romp variety. Nowadays, the genre encompasses a far greater range of themes.

In fanfic, suddenly it becomes possible to skip straight to the 'good bits' without going through all the boring exposition and stuff first. The reader already KNOWS all the boring exposition. There is no real need to do all that. You can skip right to the sex part. From a chick perspective, smut fanfic is the heroin of porn. It's admirably quick, to the point, and still strangely satisfying (for the reasons pointed out above).

Hmmm . . . Back when I read BtVS fic, I always thought it stood for the "N" in "NC-17." But "naughty" fits too.

I'll bite about the quote, because I think the question of why fanfics go towards "NC-17" territory and why people like them is a loaded one.

No, you were clear. You appear to me to be saying that other pornsites obviously can, so why can't we? That's a whole different issue to me.

A lot of them work out of other countries where US law enforcement really cannot do much to take them down. Or, they do happen to operate in the US and have managed to fly under the radar. Also, there is a *ton* of law enforcement work just to get rid of one, but naturally, even as all this work is being done, more and more sprout up.

What I meant is, it takes such little effort to be dishonest with the click button system that it might as well not be there, if all you have to do is click on 'yes, I'm over 18' and you're in.

With the password system, it's amazing how often we actually catch out the dishonest (and I'm not saying here how they trip themselves up.), simply because the system requires a little more effort to get there, even if you are being dishonest.

It generates a quite different impression in me whenever I see it. But, if it's widely used for nfic in other fandoms, I can understand why people use it and don't mean what I do when I say smut.

I'll bite about the quote, because I think the question of why fanfics go towards "NC-17" territory and why people like them is a loaded one.

Does English have a word for ladies hm erotica, in my own language there is one, you know the creamy thighs bodice ripper thing, I thought smut was that word in English.

Personally, I only think it makes it harder for everybody to get in. When I filled in the form all I said was that I was over eighteen. I saw no way that you could verify that, which made me wonder why it was in place. I mean even if some ten-year-old fill in the blanks wrong, all she has to do is try a new email address.

I can also not see why it's necessary to have stricter security measures on this site then bona fide pornsites. If people want porn I can't imagine way they would come here.

Faced with that choice? We're hot dang gonna go with the path of least resistance and the system that cuts down the abusive emails we get.

I’m sure there are many different reasons why women are into smutfic all people are different but as an all purpose explanation I thought she made a lot of sense.

I thought I'd already gone into this one and explained the reasons why we have a password/controlled access system here. It's got nothing to do with being concerned that someone who likes hardcore porn might read our stories. It's all about ensuring that nfic is restricted to those over the age of 18 and not made freely available to minors.

In the end, this is the system the admins have chosen for this forum. Just as the owner of another website - or a porn website - may choose the click button, that's entirely up to them.

What is also highly likely is that were we to replace this system with free for all access to nfic, we would get complaints from those who don't like nfic, whether they could avoid it or not. And, most likely, from the parents of minors who don't think it's right for their children to read that kind of sexually explicit content.

Faced with that choice? We're hot dang gonna go with the path of least resistance and the system that cuts down the abusive emails we get.

Then again how does the Harry Potter sites handle it, It would surprise me if this kind of problem didn’t dwarf yours, but perhaps they are just more thick-skinned and inclined to take the extra work.(not implying laziness now, how much free work people want to spend on fansites is of course up to them.)

What I wondered was why you went further to ensure this then other fanfic sites...

Then again how does the Harry Potter sites handle it, It would surprise me if this kind of problem didn’t dwarf yours, but perhaps they are just more thick-skinned and inclined to take the extra work.

Perhaps the G and Nfic groups in this community are to small to split and this forces them to compromise to a greater degree.

What I wondered was why you went further to ensure this then other fanfic sites

I don't know what other fanfiction you read, and it is certainly true that different fandoms handle things differently, but in my experience, there just isn't anything about the system here that is especially unusual or noteworthy.

Many of these sprang up in the wake of Fanfiction.net's decision to ban NC-17 material some years back, and security at these sites tightened up somewhat further after a flurry of C&D letters were sent on behalf of JK Rowling and Warner Brothers to various sites that housed explicit material.

Password? There's still a password? I thought our accounts were just added to a list of those who can enter that section after getting approval from Annette.

I bow before you obvious superior knowledge of fanfic.

No people I know would find it offensive,

Under what circumstance does this Cease and Desist stuff occur? Isn’t Rowlins famous for approving of fanfic? And what change when the authors form a another community?

but for how any Americans could believe that smutfic wasn’t legal.

But that since American law enforcement doesn’t prosecute the multitude of erotic literature sites that are a hundred times more sexually explicit then the Nfic archive , this form of erotica is obviously legal in the US.

I have difficulty understanding how this can be such problem since the fandom isn’t in the spotlight. Does Lcfic attract more minors then other fansites? (I suppose that could be it since the show was rather family oriented).

There have most certainly, however, been laws to prevent disseminating smutfic and various materials considered obscene to minors, which is what I was trying to talk about and quoted from the usdoj website.

My other point was that you shouldn't necessarily use sites already in existence as examples for what is legal. Just because a site is in existence, does not mean that it is not open to prosecution.

this place has little if anything to fear from American law.

True, but if the hypothetical transgression is so widespread and so much more extreme, it’s a reasonable assumption. (And the US has the largest porn industry in the world which suggests they are not that sensitive.)

But, as LabRat and others have pointed out over and over, the law is far from the only reason these systems developed. Helga's right; when this fandom started there were a lot of under-18s around.

But you've had this explained to you ad nauseam now - I know that many of the posts in this thread are now repeating themselves. So I'm wondering what's left that you don't understand about the reasoning?

The system's not going to change - particularly as there seems to be no demand at all for it to change, other than your own suggestion.

Is this now a case of flogging an extremely dead horse?

Is this now a case of flogging an extremely dead horse?

(And the US has the largest porn industry in the world which suggests they are not that sensitive.)

One thing pains me, though - that stories that were written as brilliant nfic are locked away and get reposted as watered-down gfic. Yes, that does bother me.

But if they weren't gfic-ified (don't you love my new word), they couldn't go into the archive. I am first in line to read good nfic, but good stories are good even without the nfic scenes and it would be disappointing if they weren't archived. I know Annesplace has an nfic archive, and I hope they are posted there as well, but lcfanfic.com is the primary place where our stories are saved, and it would be sad if these weren't included.

Wendy, I have the utmost respect for the dead, horses included, and make a sincere attempt to avoid flogging them . However, I'm pretty sure I've posted more to this thread than I have to any other on these boards, including my own story threads. I find discussions of fandom culture and politics interesting, and IMO, that is what this has been. It has remained civil and intelligent, even when the posters have held differing opinions.

Originally posted by TOC:
One thing pains me, though - that stories that were written as brilliant nfic are locked away and get reposted as watered-down gfic.

One thing pains me, though - that stories that were written as brilliant nfic are locked away and get reposted as watered-down gfic. Yes, that does bother me.

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One thing pains me, though - that stories that were written as brilliant nfic are locked away and get reposted as watered-down gfic. Yes, that does bother me.
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Well, Ann, I've read some fics that were better as gfic or pgfic because the nfic version was pretty lousy, so this isn't always true.

Plus...you get more fdk.

I posted a story over the summer which did really well on the nfic side. I spent hours cleaning it up into a PG version and... <crickets chirping>

It would appear that only two people have read it. <shrug> I had expected that would happen (that most people had read and commented on the N side) so I'm not *complaining*, I'm just playing devil's advocate.

I've also noticed that a few people feel intimidated about starting a fdk thread if there isn't already one available -

It really wants to make it's way to the archive...

I understand *exactly* what Rivka is saying. There are just those people out there (on occasion me included - depending on my frame of mind) that just prefer not to read the nfic scenes. Who actually prefer that stuff to be left behind closed doors or left up to their imaginations (like the good old Cary Grant movies... mmm... yum!)

Originally posted by TOC:
Yes, Rivka, but I don't expect people to rewrite their deathfics and remove the death from it. I don't expect deathfics to exist in another version which can be uploaded to the Archive, while the fic containing the death can not.

I understand *exactly* what Rivka is saying. There are just those people out there (on occasion me included - depending on my frame of mind) that just prefer not to read the nfic scenes. Who actually prefer that stuff to be left behind closed doors or left up to their imaginations (like the good old Cary Grant movies... mmm... yum!)

No, you just protest every deathfic to the point that authors are unwilling to write/post them.

I think people are still reading, they may just be too busy (as Rivka made us aware) to post fdk.

No, you just protest every deathfic to the point that authors are unwilling to write/post them.

I think it because those with Nfic access are the hardcore readers, otherwise they wouldn’t have taking the trouble to get in, and they aren’t as hesitant in making noise either as those that are just browsing.

I’ve great difficulty believing that the Gfic version of Faustian is more rewarding then the original and would much rather see Sue writing something new. So I really hope that those authors that Giefiy their Nfic doesn’t do it simply to get the recognition their stories deserve.

Why can’t people just not read those stories that doesn’t appeal to them?

And from my experience the Gfic version of a fic is often less intense, some I’ve even misunderstood because things had been cut to harshly.

I’ve great difficulty believing that the Gfic version of Faustian is more rewarding then the origina

And so what if Nfic authors who Gify their fics ARE looking for recognition in Gfic? Feedback is what keeps authors going, after all.

Originally posted by LabRat:
While spellchecking this post, the spellchecker kept urging me to replace 'deathfic' with 'pathfinder'. In what bizarro world are they connected?

If I wanted to re-read Faustian and somehow didn't have access or want to read the nfic version, I would very happily read the PG version, because I loved the "story" -- more than just the smut. I have no idea if anyone understands what I mean by that... but well... there you have it.

I’ve great difficulty believing that the Gfic version of Faustian is more rewarding then the original

If I wanted to re-read Faustian and somehow didn't have access or want to read the nfic version, I would very happily read the PG version, because I loved the "story" -- more than just the smut. I have no idea if anyone understands what I mean by that... but well... there you have it.

I have to give massive kudos to Sue for the huge job of making it PG-13 and I hope she gets a bunch of feedback from the younger/non nfic reading members of this fanfic community. I never thought it could happen.

I consider myself a "hardcore reader," since I've now read most of the fics at the archives at least twice now--and I did that within the space of 10 months. But I did not start reading the Nfic at Annesplace until I was about half-way to 3/4 of the way through the archive the SECOND time.

And so what if Nfic authors who Gify their fics ARE looking for recognition in Gfic?

It all depends on one's definition of "rewarding." I find Gfic versions of Nfic quite rewarding, as long as there's still a great plot leftover after the adult themes are cut.

They may really want to read a story by a particular author but just find smut offensive.

The A-plot and the relationship aspect as well as her spectacular characterizations are something that I would hate for anyone to miss.

Believe me, FB's PG version is good!

I’ve never read Nfic for the smut. If the sex isn’t driving the relationship or plot forward I just skim over it. At the same time sex is a large part of healthy normal relationship and when you have stories that flinch from it, it suspends my disbelief. It’s like those American TV-series where the woman mummify herself in the sheets the morning after. You are pulled out of the story and made to contemplate why people are scared of boobies, rather then immersing yourself in the show.

I know for me personally, I wouldn't allow my kids to read anything on the nfic page... I don't feel the subject matter is at all appropriate for the young and impressionable... but that's basically because no matter what I may write, and or read myself personally, I don't believe in treating sex flippantly - I believe in marriage and *forever* and monogamy and all that sentimental stuff (and a lot of other very admamant, very personal views that I refuse to get into a discussion about) that I'm sure a lot of people would disagree with me on. That's one of the things that I loved about the original Lois & Clark series, was the level of regard it had for marriage before intimacy... that may be because it was in the 8:00 time slot on ABC, but even so... I appreciated it because I hate the TV shows where everyone is jumping in bed with everyone else at the drop of a hat...

And so, because of those beliefs (marriage and forever, etc...) and because I would be trying to instill those beliefs in my child, I wouldn't allow them to read nfic, while they were young and impressionable - and certainly not during their teenage years while their hormones are running wild and rampant. I don't want what someone else has written to teach my kids about sex... that would be my job.

But the nice thing about these boards is that everyone is very tactful in presenting their views on things, and we do have a wide range of different cultures and backgrounds presented here. In some instances, we just have to agree to disagree on things.

But I do think that the password protection - even with it's flaws and faults - is a good measure to have in place... if for nothing else to protect the owners of this wonderful fansite.

And so, because of those beliefs (marriage and forever, etc...) and because I would be trying to instill those beliefs in my child, I wouldn't allow them to read nfic, while they were young and impressionable - and certainly not during their teenage years while their hormones are running wild and rampant.

But for now, in my admittedly naive 24-year-old opinion, I'd say there are definitely worse ways to learn about sex than L&C fic.

This has nothing to do with me being prudish or offended by smut--I just don't think it's an integral part of the story, most of the time.