Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Related Why is the smut locked in?

I don’t want to ruffle any feathers but I’m really curious, most posters here seem to be mothers with children and not particularly prudish or conservative.
Why is access to the Nfic section password protected? Wouldn’t it simply be enough to label it as sexually explicit content?

For those of you that doesn’t know: the Nfic section contains vanilla sex between consenting adults virtually always tastefully done as a part of the love story.
I see more violence on Sunday mornings cartoon shows and get more risqué things in my Mailbox each morning, What exactly is that you think you are protecting minors from?
On the top of my head I can recall two stories I hesitate to let a child read.
Really, If I wanted to shape a child’s sexuality into a conventional mold I would encourage the reading of the LcNfic.
If you consider fanfic as such, haven’t smut always been a big part of the phenomena?(In fact before becoming interested I thought fanfic was synonymous with written sexual fantasies), but the entire Folc world seems too treat it unusually uptight to me.
It’s no big deal, but I think many ( especially females )are drawn to fanfic for the smut. If access was easier the Nfic authors would receive more well deserved attention, and more people would likely discover the archive, more people would be tempted to write, making it a win-win situation for everybody.

So please explain the thoughts behind this because I don’t understand it at all.

I believe the thinking is that minors should not have access to those kind of stories. In some states in the USA the age of consent is 18 (it's 16 in most), so I think that's why the age limit is 18 on these boards as well (though I'm not sure about that). Also, you need to be 18 to see NC-17 movies (that is movies containing graphic sex scenes) in the States.

I have no idea why this fandom is comparatively strict in regard to this issue. Most fandoms don't have password protection for nfic, just a warning. You'll have to ask those that have been around the L&C fandom longer than I have. Maybe it's specifically because there's lots of moms with younger children and they wouldn't want their kids reading nfic.

Personally, I agree with you, but the consensus here seems to be that the nfic issue is being handled well, and I don't think it's worth a debate or fight (or possibly flame war ). Plus I'm not very involved in fanfic, so it doesn't really affect me.

As an author of some of those fics, I like the extra protection provided by requiring a password. I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable posting there if I thought it didn't take a special effort to get in - rather than just relying on someone reading a warning. I don't want to offend anyone and it seems to me that if you have to go to the extra effort of getting a password, I know at the very least that you know what you're getting yourself into.

ML

Well, the United States has quite a few laws and statutes involving obscenity, especially related to the distribution of sexually explicit material to minors, to the point where I think it's always better to be safe than sorry. I'm not sure if this is still accurate, but at one point I am very certain it was illegal to knowingly distribute sexually explicit material to minors, and we do have minors that access this board.

http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/ceos/obscenity_stats.html

* 18 USC § 1470



Transfer of Obscene Material to Minors

Penalties: Imprisonment for up to 10 years, and a fine of up to $250,000.

And the boards are run from the US. Hadn't thought about that. Aria makes a good point. In this case, it probably is better to be safe than sorry.

I do have a question, though. Can anyone tell us what percentage of the regular members do have a password? (Just curious - provided that it's not pushing the lines for you to let us know).

ML

It's more or less for a few reasons.

Firstly, because of the particularly family nature of the Superman myth, I believe that in the very early days of FoLCdom, those who set up such sites felt that they had a special responsiblity to ensure that minors couldn't access X-rated material, which didn't apply to the source material of most other fandoms.

Also, back in the day, things were very different than they are today. And nfic was the source of very intense friction in the fandom. Today, nfic is just one more genre in FoLCdom. Back then...well, it was the fic that dare not speak its name. The cause of many a flame war between those who wanted to read/write nfic and those who had some reason to not want it to be any part of the fandom and who viewed it as repugnant. Whether it was from a moral, religious or whatever perspective. Often, it was enough just to mention the word nfic on a list or forum to provoke war. Nfic was tip-toed around in an effort to avoid such conflicts between the two camps and passwording was just one more means of keeping the peace.

And, so it has become tradition within the fandom, more or less.

Secondly, as Aria points out, there are actually legal ramifications to not passwording nfic sites because this forum is hosted in the US. We don't do it because we're prudes or trying to spoil anyone's fun, but because it protects us and the forum from any trouble.

It hasn't been unknown in the past, for example, for the admins to be blasted with email from irate parents who have just discovered their little darlings reading nfic. (Although they have backed down sharply when we can show them proof - through the password/access application forms - that said little darlings lied their back teeth off about their age to gain access. ) So, you see, Arawn:

It's never been entirely about protecting minors. Partly it was to protect the fandom from splits and flame wars and general unpleasantness. And partly to protect us from legal hassles.

At a personal level, I'm ambivulent about the segregation. It wouldn't matter to me one jot if the stories were all posted in one section and just labelled accordingly as to rating. And I'm especially grateful to websites in the past (Menolly's, Flakeydom's etc) which didn't password their sites. Because I probably wouldn't have read or written nfic if they had.

But within the fandom, I recognise why it's being done and have no quibble with the reasons for it.

ML, I don't know if we're able to grab that particularly info out of the stats. But if we can, we will.

LabRat

Hmm. I get the whole protecting the fandom bit and the law, I'm just wondering why getting a novel that contains graphic sex in a drugstore is just so easy to get in comparison. I suppose it's due to the ability of "happening upon" smut, as opposed to grabbing one of those books, giving them to mommy and freaking her out. I think someone mentioned this on one of the polemic nfic threads and I found myself scratching my head.

But yes, I find myself convinced that this is a reflection not only of the fandom wanting to protect itself, but also being conscious that the material (aka the whole Superman series) could entice youngsters in a way perhaps other series wouldn't.

It's interesting you mention "vanilla sex." But alas, I don't have time to comment further

And you don’t, if you have to click the I,m over 18, enter, button? Reading an erotic story isn’t like looking at pictures you have to immerse yourself to get too the juicy parts, it doesn’t happen by accident, and even when they get too the juicy parts what is it that people will encounter? I have virtually never read something that any teenager I know would consider more then the basics.


But this is about a half galaxy beyond safe. You can hardly click on an random internet link without being directed to a porn site. There is countless sites with erotic stories. The least explicit that makes the nfic section look like a kindergarten. If a box with “don’t enter if you are above 18” isn’t enough there should be about a million American websites that should be prosecuted for obscenity for hugely better reason than Lcnfanfic. And what about all other adult fanfic sites are they all run from Europe?

Seriously I might be a pervert but who could go to the Nfic section for masturbation material? I don’t know about what kind of adult filters you have for your kids, but I would be happy see any kid of mine reading in the Nfic section. Provided such vanilla smut could hold their attention.


OK, but really are their anyone that finds Nfic section kinky today? I really would like someone explaining why in that case(not to call them prudes, I’m just honestly curious why they think it would matter.)

Comparitively speaking, it's harder. You have to pay for the book, and you have to do it in person. I'm also fairly sure that there are laws preventing the display of books of this nature in windows accessible to the street. Or at least, this was true at one point. Stuff gets knocked down as unconstitutional so fast... new stuff gets put in its place... it's really hard to keep track of it all.

This is kind of an everyone else is doing it so why can't we? argument. Which doesn't really work on the legal side of things. All it takes is one really irate parent.

Obscenity laws in the US have always been a source of great contention. After all, who decides what is obscene? A litmus test has even been established in order to determine what makes something obscene. But it is generally accepted that things that fail this litmus test are not protected under free speech. And, really, why play with fire?

Another thing I forgot to mention -- not everything out there is hosted in the US. Sometimes it's a case of jurisdiction.

Yes, but the problem is, Arawn, that this is your view. It's not everyone's view. You only have to look out in the real world and see what people complain about on TV and in the media to realise that what one person considers inoffensive another considers abhorrant and outrageous.

And I don't think that some religious viewpoints of sexually explicit material is such an unknown or rare event that it's impossible to understand why someone coming from that viewpoint would consider nfic very far from innocent and suitable for minors to read.

I happen to agree with your pov. I've always argued that in FoLCdom nfic is mostly about two consenting adults enjoying a healthy, loving physical relationship and have been happy to defend my writing/reading of it in that context.

However, others don't feel that way and their pov is also worthy of consideration.

I've never been terribly impressed, either, I have to say with those click if you're over 18 buttons. They are pretty meaningless, since they rely on the honesty of the clicker to work. And, as I said in my previous post, our experience is that some minors lie to get access to nfic. You might as well just not bother having the button at all and just have a free for all, for all the barrier they provide.

LabRat

Well, no, actually, because some stories in the nfic section don't contain any sex. They're there because they break the PG boundary in other ways - ie, they contain strong language and/or violence.

Yvonne

I have always understood that the reason we have a password for nfic is to comply with U.S. law, simple as that. But I think that it also says something about the nature of our fandom - that we have respect for the wishes of people with varying viewpoints. And it's not like the admins are making us perform a ritual sacrifice to get the password, on the contrary it's fairly easy, so what does having a password hurt? Seems like the best of both worlds to me.

Aria,
I mustn’t have been very clear. I would think that it’s fairly obvious that obscenity laws you referred to doesn’t apply. Otherwise how could all those countless pornsites operate out of the US, without passwords?

Labrat,
I hope I didn’t give the impression that I wanted to force people to read Nfic. Only that those that were interested should have easier access.

And your password system doesn’t?

Yvonne,

Wouldn’t it simply be enough to label it as sexually explicit content?

Well,label it stories that some Americans find unsuitable for children or something. As long as everyone understand what it is, it should be fine.

I have never read Nfic for the smut factor. I discovered a host of interesting authors and that they had Nfic rated stories and I wanted more. Generally I’m very reluctant to register to new sites. It would have surprised me greatly if the nfic were pornographic and they weren’t, they just treated sex as the natural part of life it is. Sure there is a sexual romp here and there, but those are cute rather then arousing IMO.

Mrs Mosley,
In what way would an adult material warning be more disrespectful then the present system?

As I said, the greater the difficulty to access the material the more people will dismiss it. I think there are plenty of people out there that pass over the Nfic because they can't be bothered with the registration.

I can definitely see where they're coming from with the password. Especially knowing what happened with fanfiction.net and all of the angry mail they were getting when people discovered their children reading risque stories.

Though I do believe that it is a parents job to make sure their children are viewing appropriate content. It also wasn't that long ago that I was a minor, and I had no more trouble back then accessing smutty stories and the such as I do now, though I do remember being frustrated when I wasn't successfull in finding any Lois and Clark nfic I could read! :p

No, you were clear. You appear to me to be saying that other pornsites obviously can, so why can't we? That's a whole different issue to me.

Just because they do it doesn't mean they're technically allowed. Also, just because they are in English, or appear to be a United States company does not mean they are hosted in the United States. A lot of them work out of other countries where US law enforcement really cannot do much to take them down. Or, they do happen to operate in the US and have managed to fly under the radar. Also, there is a *ton* of law enforcement work just to get rid of one, but naturally, even as all this work is being done, more and more sprout up.

It's a problem, yes, but I don't see the legitimacy in arguing that because site XYZ hasn't gotten caught yet means that site QRS can go ahead and do it.

But, anyway, you would really have to discuss the true legality of this with a US smut law expert to get a definitive answer. I've taken coursework in this, but that was a while ago. The details have since leaked from my brain, and legislation has surely changed My job does involve aspects of law enforcement and the Internet, but in a vastly unrelated area

Please, don't get me wrong. I'm fairly liberal-minded when it comes to these things, and I happen to think that a lot of it is silly, but the point is that not everyone *does* think this way. I'm just explaining my understanding from a legal standpoint. It's generally safest to operate with the least tolerant denominator in mind.

Really? I've always thought that nfic in every fandom garners more interest and enthusiasm than PG fic. The more you lock it down, the more allure it has and the more people are beating down the doors to get to it. I've certainly never had the impression it was "dismissed" by readers, here or anywhere else.

I don't think the nfic posted here is especially damaging (another one of those value judgments, of course, since everyone's definition of what might be damaging differs, and perhaps differs even further according to who's reading it) but I also don't think it hurts to password protect it. As others have said, it's pretty easy to get the password, both here and at the nfic archive. If it keeps the site owners out of legal trouble, it's certainly not too much to ask that readers send a simple e-mail.

Caroline

Not always. As Yvonne said above, the Nfic section also includes especially violent fics that take them over the PG-13 rating. Not to mention, the sex portrayed isn't always "vanilla," whether it's between two consenting adults or not.

Some Nfic actually is pornographic, IMO--which isn't to say I don't enjoy it. And I've found that, as long as the writing is good, even the "cute romps" can be arousing.

It's all a matter of how your imagination works when you read.

Me, I didn't ask for access to the Nfic forum until I saw a fic in the PG forum which was further along as an Nfic--I wanted more chapters, and I wanted them NOW, so I asked for Nfic access.

That isn't to say that I would necessarily want my 11-year-old brother to read Nfic--I firmly believe that there is a time and age for every piece of knowledge, and that exactly what happens during sex doesn't have to be known about when you're 11. It's enough to sum it up for that age group--or skip to the "morning after" scene, IMO, if there's sex in the story at all.

Also, I think it's strange that many people in this thread use the word "smut" as an all-'round term for Nfic. To me, "smut" is more on the line with "porn," "S&M," or even "rape," than with "vanilla sex" or "making love." Any thoughts?

Well, okay, maybe not "rape." But "smut" definitely has a MUCH less-innocent connotation for me than "consenting sex between adults" or "making love."

Hmm. I have yet to read a fic which I find violent enough to garner an Nfic rating. I don't doubt there are though, I'm just wondering what fics have hard violent scenes because I have yet to come across one that I could definitely see outside of the PG-13 rating. It seems pretty uncharacteristic with the fandom in general.

It's convention more than anything else. To label all fics that have sex in them as "fics that contain love making" or "consenting sex between adults" is to some extent bowing down to political correctness. I say this because although I do agree that the word carries negative connotations, it's been adopted so wildly across fandoms that I see no reason to be made uncomfortable by it (although I guess if you make the argument that it implies there is nothing but sex, a writer would be entitled to disagree).