Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Related Does anybody feel awkward when . . .

I don't know if my experience is unique, but I was wondering:

Those of you who do beta-reading and editing, if you're younger than the author of the fic (and you know it), do you ever feel awkward editing their work, or even making suggestions to improve the story?

It's not even just fanfic I'm talking about--I once edited/beta-read a textbook that one of my older friends (he's at least in his fifties, and I'm 23) was writing, and I have to say, I was kind of afraid to tell it to him straight, because of the age difference, and the fact that the younger person--me--was doing the editing, instead of the other way around. Luckily, my friend was really good about it.

Or how about when you first BR/edit a story for an author whose stories you've read before, and utterly loved? Does seeing the rough draft of their newest work make you skittish about helping them improve it?

No, I can't say that this kind of thing has ever crossed my mind or bothered me, now that you mention it.

When I beta read for someone they've generally asked me to do it for them and I've generally informed them that I don't mind beta reading for them, so long as they're clear that I'll not hold back, it'll be warts and all, if I have a problem with something I'll say so...etc etc.

This is how I like my betas to work - I'd much rather a beta told me privately I'd screwed up somewhere than that they kept quiet and several dozen readers did after I posted.

If they're cool with that, then I figure it's my job to give them my honest opinion. I never really think beyond that as to what their status or age or whatever is. I just do what they've asked me to.

When it comes to this, I'm just delighted to be able to get to view their latest work early on and if I can offer something that helps them make the story better or just sparks them off on something they hadn't thought of, that's always a pleasure. Mostly, I guess because I know how wonderful those moments are when a beta does them for me, so it's always nice to return the favour.


LabRat

This hasn't happened to me in the fanfic world, but it has in the real world. I have found that it can be very difficult critiquing someone significantly older. I always assume they see me as a young person over any other quality or experience I may have, but in the last few years I have realized that often this isn't the case at all. Also I am now on the other side of 25, so that has helped, too.

LOL, course this is that, too. These days, there are fewer authors older than me to begin with.

Yeah, the people I beta/edit for have asked me to do it too. But on the other hand, I have been told before (by someone who wasn't talking about writing of any kind) basically that, since I was so young I couldn't have enough knowledge/experience to know what I was talking about.

And I guess, when I really get into the beta work, it kind of reminds me of that, and I'm afraid that, even though they may have said they were okay with a full beta job, they might not have realized just what that entailed (if they've never had a beta before, that is).

Not to mention, I know I sometimes resent it when people younger than I am (especilly my siblings) tell me I'm wrong about something. I guess I'm just a bit "neurotic" about the possibility that they might not appreciate that I really DO know what I'm talking about, despite the fact that I'm younger and have possibly had less education than they have. Know what I mean?

Yeah, I sort of know what you mean in general.

It's been a number of years since I've Beta'ed, BUT my last job before I left my stint real world and started working on my Master's this fall was essentially an editing job. After I designed (or received a pre-designed file) at the print shop in which I worked, I also got the pleasure of telling clients what was wrong with their file, why they can't use this size font, and no the file they sent me isn't compatible with any of the company programs.

I'm 22 years old and I'm as nicely as possible ripping apart and putting back together other, older peoples' projects. :p

It was a tad daunting at times, but it depends on who you work for (or Beta for). Half of the people didn't know how old I was to begin with, and the other half who actually came into the shop treated me as if I knew what I was talking about and listened to my opinions before printing. Somewhere in there a third of the group didn't care one bit and went ahead and told me to print the way they wanted. Our favorite phrase in the pre-press room was, garbage in, garbage out.

Jen

Experience and maturity help, but age is no gaurentee of either.

As long as you know what you're doing, as long as BR and author work well together (respect each other, understand what's expected of each other, etc), then I see no reason for age to come into it at all.

That's one of the nice things about the 'net: it's a great equalizer.

Paul

What Paul said. And, I think, the crucial thing is to come to an understanding between author and beta on what the rules are and what each expects of the other right at the start, before you even open a story file. That way there are no unpleasant surprises.

If you know in advance that Author A is only wanting praise from you or just wants you to read through the story and give them an overall view of characterisation and plot, then you know not to waste your time pointing out those typos or glitches.

Equally, if Author B says, "Give me the works, anything goes and don't hold anything back..." you know they won't freak out when you do just that. (Or if they do, you can always remind them you're just doing what they told you to.)

As Martha says: Communication is key!


LabRat

I don't think age makes any difference what-so-ever. We all have different talents. Some of us are better at grammar and punctuation than others, and some are very good with characterization. Age makes no difference at all.
~~~

Again, we all have different talents. I don't think this makes any difference.
~~~


I agree with LabRat, that a beta should be honest and forthright.

Then, too, people need different things from their beta. Some people just want to know how a certain idea works, etc, and want to be told what's good and bad. Other people need mostly grammar and punctuation.

Of course, like Lisa said (or implied), this can be more difficult in person, especially if the person is resistant to the idea. It all depends on whether they ask for your help or not.

I think I've got you beat by a couple of years, Labby...
Or if they have never done a beta before...

I think this goes away a little when you get older.

And having less or more education means nothing. Just because someone has a master's degree or whatever, doesn't mean they know what you know and doesn't mean they have your talents.

Gadfries, are there really people who don't want this pointed out:
Finally, this is somewhat off topic, but I gotta say that I'm doing a beta for someone and the story is really great. A previous beta told her to not bother with a long fic because her English language skills were just too bad. I was aghast. If the beta didn't think they could handle it, then it would have been nicer if they told her that, than to tell her not to bother trying to post the fic. So this wonderful author has had this great little fic that has just been sitting on her hard drive waiting for the light of day....

Yeah, I know what you mean. I've managed to push it aside, but I occasionally think about it. (Note that I started BRing when I was 15! )

What *really* makes me awkward, though, is BRing in English for native English speakers - younger or older than me alike. (When they're older, it's even worse ) I think, 'how can I correct someone who speaks English everyday?'. But then I think that I can at least point out the typos and go ahead with it *g* To be honest, BRing has helped *me* improve as well - made me look up words, discuss grammatical phenomena, and get a different degree of insight into writing. Because, suppose the writer has some awkward phrasing. You have to try to figure out what they mean, and help them rephrase so that the meaning shows clearly.

Anyways - the short answer was 'yes, but I've coped with it. There are worse things in life and BRing '

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

wel, Anna, just cuz English might be us's nativ langage dusn't means we 'uns knows how to does it right. Duz it?

Joking aside, I've seen native English speakers / writers who do worse. I'd have no problem sending my stuff to a non-English speaker who speaks / writes English well. In fact, TOC, whose native language is Swedish, has been known to correct me on multiple occasions and has done little mini betas for me. [And I bet if I hadn't said that many of you would never know TOC (Ann) wasn't a native English speaker.]

I've had BRs who are both older and younger than me. I've had one BR who is exactly half my age, and another younger even than that. I've had BRs whose first language isn't English.

The one thing all my BRs have had in common, and the reason why I begged them to BR for me in the first place, is this: they're good at what they do. They have an eye for characterisation, or for plot, or for when a story drags or something's not quite right - or for all of those. Usually, they have an eye for spelling, grammar and typos as well, but for me that's less important because I'm generally fairly accurate in that regard. They're also usually wonderful at giving me ideas for developing particular threads further, or for picking up on some minor point in the story and pointing out that it's a huge opportunity for character or plot development.

So, Darcy or Anna or anyone else wondering about this: I think your age, or your native language, is completely irrelevant to anyone who's asked you to BR for them. Take it from me, that's not what writers care about where their BRs are concerned!


Wendy

Actually, I think that sometimes people who have learned English as a second language have better grammatical skills than those of us who grew up speaking English. After all, they didn't learn all the bad habits we did when learning English.

You should hear my extended family when they get together. I'm not sure they know the difference between lend and borrow - let alone the subtleties of grammar . On the other hand, they did grow up north of seven - which all of you from southern Ontario should understand - and yes, there are rumors of inbreeding

As for all of you grammar experts out there... I’m convinced that you are all part of some elite group that gets together every once in a while and change all the rules - just to keep us novices from understanding them

ML

Nah . . .

I just get kind of anal when I write my own stories--don't like to turn in anything less than mostly-clean copy. Some of that kicks in when I BR/edit, and grammar/spelling/punctuation errors make me cringe when I read them.

The rules haven't changed--much. And even the ones that have changed I don't pay attention to, 'cause I'm convinced that the "newer" rules are just created so people can be sloppy about grammar and say they're still right. :p

Hehehe... They haven't changed that much. But we like to keep you on your toes!!

Amen to this:

I'm still appalled that it's now considered acceptable to use 'ain't'.
~~

And doesn't it just make you furious when you miss something even after you have read it at least a dozen times??

Yup.

Ah, but I've realised over the years that we don't miss them. It's just that the little beggers breed behind your back soon as you close down the file. And then when you open it up again, there they are, large as life, where they never were previously.

Really - it's the only explanation.

LabRat

Actually, Classica, "ain't" was perfectly acceptable back in the 1800s or so, treated as a contraction like any other (can't, won't, aren't, etc).

I'm not sure of its exact history, but being considered unacceptable was, I believe, a relatively recent development.

Paul

Oh, so that's what happens! I'm so relieved, Labby. I thought my problem was that I didn't understand the rules for commas. I feel much better knowing that there's some sort of virus in my computer just placing commas and removing commas at random.

ML