Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Related Wanna write longer/shorter fics, but don't know how?

How many of you writers out there (like me) can write a great vignette, but have trouble with anything longer than 6 or 7 pages?

On the other hand, how many people (such as Nan Smith or LabRat) can write awesome 500-1,000KB epics without much trouble? Do you have trouble with shorter stories?

Share your experiences here, and if you have some tips on how to make a fic longer or shorter, by all means, please clue us in!

Well, first of all, thanks for the compliment, DSDragon.

LabRat

See, I'd love to have the "problem" that shorter stories tend to get longer as I indulge my muse.

But even with the longer stories I have planned (there are two right now in the works, so to speak) they always end up about only half as long as I expect them to be, and the chapters I write seem so short they could just be called "scenes."

I have trouble creating sub-plots that aren't "cutesy," and A-plots are pretty much beyond me. Not to say I wouldn't LOVE to write a good action fic, but I don't know a lot of the terminology (for fight scenes if I need them) and my villains fall just short of "bad to the bone," much less evil.

You know, as per the definition of a short story, I did read it in one sitting...

Anyway, I think I'm too impatient when it comes to writing. It's funny; I'll happily work on a painting for months. Put it down, come back to it. Totally redo it a month later. But I get bored writing. I tell my characters, "Do something interesting already!" And people have told me I have a couple of premises under my belt that would make a good longer story, but aside from being extremely self-critical and gun-shy since there are like some Epic Masters in my presence, I also get hung up on the logistics. K, Lois, walk inside your apartment door, put down your coat, did you shut the door?

I think it would be a total rush to work on a long story for like a year or two, but aside from biting at writing both A and B plots, (and what story exists without action or romance <g>), I've also watched my creative flair flush down the toilet. I don't think I've written anything since at least 2005.

Randomly, I'm also INCREDIBLY concise, which doesn't really work out for a longer story anyway. There are so few introspection-laden stories I'll read, that I'm just like, if I don't want to read it, why do I want to write it? But I haven't actually come up with an answer to that question yet...

This has been another session of all over the wall thoughts by Jen. I wonder how many posts I've made over the years right after having had a drink...

Cheers,
Jen

I know exactly what you mean. I tend to be able to summarize things on paper very well--when I'm not rambling as I type, anyway.

But even for high school term papers, I got into a bit of a bind when I had to have a 50-page collection of essays, but only had just over 30--I didn't see the relevance or the need for more analysis because I figured I'd said all I could on the one subject. I got a little better in my first college-level English class, but just barely.

For fanfiction, I think I've just got a lack of good plans. When I start out, I have a great plan for the beginning of the story, and I figure that I'll just find the rest as I go - or brainstorm and outline one chapter at a time - but then I get to the next chapter, and I find out I have no idea what to do next, or even how I want the story to end.

And then the whole concise thing appears again. The plans I do make are so generalized, that I might have "Clark enlists Jimmy's help for X task" as the WHOLE plan for one chapter, and I've got to write the whole thing from that. I've learned how to outline essays, but without ideas for endings that go with my beginnings, I have a LOT of trouble outlining fics.

Lately I don't seem to be able to write anything easily. My long stories keep getting longer and more complicated, and my short stories just blunder off into oblivion. The last story I managed to finish was a grand total of 5 pages; I started it in 2000 and finished it this March . And my last L&C fic was in 2004!

With short stories, I just get to a point where I don't know what comes next. Then the story has to float around in my brain for two or three years until one day inspiration hits, I realize where the story is going, and I can finish it up in an afternoon. That was how I managed to finish Ordinary Lovers. I wrote about half of the conversation the story centers on, and then tried and tried to figure out where the conversation went next with no luck whatsoever. Then one day (while I was in the shower ) it all came together and I realized not only where the story needed to go but that it had always been going in that direction and just waiting for me to catch up <g>.

Anyway, all that to say I don't have any tips, but at least you're not alone I can't finish things to save my life. (Just ask my betas how many unfinished stories I have going ...)

Kaylle

Oh, I can finish things--as long as I start them. My problem is the stories I write are all so much shorter than I originally hoped they'd be.

Well, I've said it before, so feel free to tune out now but I've discovered over the years that with longer fics, I have to make an outline. And yeah, my outlines start out vague -- when planning out Tryst, I had one section that said, and I quote, "stuff happens."

I won't tell you it's easy, though. I have a lot of trouble outlining whole stories, too. I tend to start off with ideas about a beginning and an ending, with no idea what I'll fill the middle with. But I start off trying to figure out what sorts of things *have* to happen, to get from beginning to end. Then once I have an idea of what has to happen, I start thinking of *how* exactly they can happen.

Like in Hearts Divided -- I had Lois & the dancers in the nightclub, and I needed to get them onto Kal's spaceship. I was stuck there for ages. But then I asked my husband how *he* would kidnap four nightclub dancers, and he came up with a very workable ideas. Mind you, he was also looking at me funny but the idea worked, and that's the main thing.

Or to work with your example -- Okay, Clark needs to get Jimmy to help him do X. Is Jimmy gonna want to do this, or will he need to be convinced? (Or even strong-armed? Might have to send in Lois for that job ) What does Clark know about the task that he can share with Jimmy at this point -- will he hold back any details? How are they getting along with each other -- buddies, or have other events in the story made things strained between them? Where are they when the conversation happens? What time of day? Who else is there?

I generally find that I'll have to work a lot at getting a scene outlined but once I have the idea firmly worked out in my mind, writing it is (relatively) easy.

That kind of outline, I cannot do very far in advance. Two or three scenes at a time, maybe. I think of it as driving down a highway in a heavy fog. I can see clearly for about 20 feet, and through the mist I think I see where I want to go, so I know I can get that far, and once I get there, another 20 feet are visible, etc.

So once I got my dancers onto the spaceship, then I faced another problem -- what the heck were they going to do for the next week? Well, they've been kidnapped. They'll react to that. Kal will react to them. The guilty crewmen should probably get some sort of trial. How would they be punished? Figuring out the answer to *that* gave me the key to how I was going to wrap up the whole story. (I still remember where I was when it came to me -- a parking lot, on a sunny day in February of 2001, at the corner of Hwy 64 and Laura Duncan Rd. ) I love those moments when the fog lifts for a moment and I get a glimpse of what's on the road ahead. But then I got that part written and faced the same dilemma again. *Now* what do they do to pass the time? So I was right back to "stuff happens" and had to work it out from scratch.

So, um, that was a long-winded way of saying I generally use outlines They start out very general, and I add details as I go. What needs to happen, how can it happen, what needs to happen first before the other thing works, and how can *that* happen, and... well, you get the idea.

Oh, and Jen? Just slip in descriptions with the dialog.

"I can't believe you did that," Lois complained, crossing the room to drop her coat onto a chair. "Why did you do that?"

Clark closed the apartment door behind him. "Well, it seemed like a good idea at the time, Lois."

And I should probably go to bed now I'm rambling, and I haven't even got the excuse of having been drinking

PJ

I get that much. My problem is that I don't even know the general what HAS to happen for the whole fic. All I usually have are beginnings--or a complete vignette. I even outline the beginnings pretty well too.

Maybe it would help if I used a complete vignette idea (as opposed to the little bits of fluff I've been writing lately) as the general outline for a longer story?

Now there's an idea. Then, I can flesh out each part/scene/whatever into a chapter or so by using a more specific outline.

Thanks for the idea, Marissa!

Well, you know where L&C are at the start of the story. Maybe they're partners, maybe they don't even know each other yet. And at the end, you want them to be in love with each other. There's all sorts of ways to get them there (see half the archive). What suits your time period -- can you use events from the series in a slightly different way (or a radically different way) to get them together? Want to cook up some angsty misunderstandings, or give them a horrible disease to fight? Is there going to be a bad guy?

Personally, I find A-plots very useful. It gives them something to do while getting together -- things to talk about other than how they feel. I mean, I love the heart-to-hearts but they don't always flow well. "Hi, I'm Lois and my boss says I have to put up with you." "Lois, I'm deeply in love with you. Please marry me." "Oh, yes, Clark, I love you, too!"

Okay, I'm definitely loopy now...

PJ

Ah, A-plots. Wish I had ideas for A-plots.

I haven't exactly been writing a lot for the boards yet, but I have some experience with writing, though not in English.

I had often trouble to find enough stuff to make a proper A-plot. I could think of certain scenes that I'd love to write, but a scene is definitely not enough to be a whole story.

I work that way...I take several scenes that I'd love to write and try to link them. I usually have the climax of my story in mind and think about a logical way to get there. And then I wonder where other smaller scenes could fit in. When I know what the general problem of my characters will be, I search for possible conflicts on their way.

As to large scenes...I often write them down in a short way and enlarge them later. I include thoughts of the character or descriptions of the surrounding. I think about ways to let the evil appear even meaner. Sometimes quotations from movies give me some ideas or stories that I've read. When I have trouble with continuing my story, I read through the previous parts and search for a way to improve them. Sometimes dealing with another problem helps a lot to solve your first one.

Another helpful thing is: Write about things you have experienced on your own. Was there a girlfriend or boyfriend being mean to you? I always find it helpful to know how I felt in a situation and to use that knowledge for another character.

I often start writing before I even know how the story will go on. And sometimes it developes in a very different way than I first thought.

One example.. I had a character dealing with a big complot against him. He was working as some kind of undercover-cop, but his parents were thinking that he was indeed a criminal. No one, not even his wife knew about his real job. She wondered why she had never met her in-laws. First I wanted to use this as a silent conflict in the background. The character's father blamed him for destroying the family and didn't want to talk to his son ever again. Then I suddenly decided to let them meet each other.
My best ideas occur usually while I'm writing the story. I search for holes in it and try to fill them and sometimes change them on my way.

Of course I know that every writer works different and maybe you can't write without having a plan at first.

To get out of dead ends it often helps me to think about my characters motivation, especially the motive of the evil ones. Why do they do certain things. How are they thinking? What would the Lex Luthor of the show do in a situation? When I'm stuck with my story I don't force me to write on. Usually I wander through the archive and read stories of others and soemtimes I get ideas, then. Thinking about other things takes the presure away and my mind starts to work...

Well, the first thing I would say is that I hope you're not underestimating the value of a "great vignette." I do understand the frustration that can come from wanting to write something longer and feeling unable to, but a well-written vignette is every bit as worthy as an epic story, and often harder to accomplish, IMO. You can get away with some weak sections in a longer work and still manage to write a decent story, but in a short piece, every single word has to be just so or the whole thing is likely to collapse. Vignettes often don't generate as much review excitement as multi-part stories with thrilling cliffhangers, but it doesn't mean that they are less worth the writing.

As to your original question, I seem to have the opposite problem lately. I'm very capable of writing ten pages in which absolutely nothing happens. Sometimes this is an OK thing, if the ten pages manage to advance characterization or give necessary insight into the characters' emotions, and sometimes it's just verbal diarrhea. The trick is knowing which is which . (Mental note: should really find beta...)

If you have a story that you think needs fleshing out, then I would suggest you look for places where you're telling the readers something and try to show them instead. So rather than saying, "Clark was lonely," give the readers a short scene showing Clark being lonely. What would your Clark do when he was lonely? Would he wander around his apartment fixing things? Would he increase the time he spent being Superman? Would he hover around outside Lois's apartment?

One writer (I think it was Meredith Knight, but I'm not going to look it up, so someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong...) showed us Clark compulsively making sandwiches out of random ingredients in his refrigerator while Lois was supposed to be on a date with Lex Luthor. So instead of "Clark was lonely," "Clark was jealous," or "Clark was at loose ends," we get an endearing image of him trying to fill his time and take his mind off her date by making sandwiches. And later, of course, Lois bites into one of the sandwiches (tomato and peanut butter, IIRC!) and the author was able to use the scene just that bit more. Lovely.

When I write a WiP, I try to throw "extra" elements into early parts that I might be able to use later. These are little details, little bits of scenery or characterization that I think might be useful at some point. If I don't find a place to expand on them, that's usually OK, but if I do, it gives me some material to work with and hopefully gives the impression that I plan my stories considerably better than I actually do. You know Chekhov's rule - if there's a gun on the wall in the first act, then it needs to be fired in the last? Well, I'm not that organized as a writer, so I just put lots of guns on the wall. That way, even if I only fire a few of them, at least they're there to work with if I need them. In my story "If I Were You," I stuck in a cat that wound up being one such element. It didn't add materially to the plot, but it was one of those little details that added something to characterization and to the overall mood of the story. And yes, it made it longer, too

With anything you write, you can read over what you've written and look for places that can be expanded, details added, bits of scenery described, etc. And you'll also have places where you might want to eliminate same. Sometimes more is just...more. A writer like CC Aiken can say more with a raised eyebrow and a well-placed ellipsis than I can in five paragraphs of exposition. A well-written sentence of dialogue can often stand on its own and should be left on its own and allowed to do its thing.

I don't know if you work with a beta reader or not, but I do think that second set of eyes and impressions can be awfully helpful with edits of this type. If you can find someone honest enough to tell you that her eyes glazed over during this bit and that she was really hoping you'd do more with that section, it can be oh-so-helpful. Because when you're writing it, it's often hard to evaluate that kind of thing yourself.

I may not have told you anything you didn't already know, but I do find the question interesting and have been pondering your post every since I first saw it. So thanks for letting me ramble on, and good luck to you in your writing

Best,

Caroline

I'm afraid of jinxing myself, but I feel that your question is really relevant to me. I recently started on a project and this time I told myself it wouldn't be enough to just do a vignette (as I have on other fandoms). Don't get me wrong. I like vigenettes and some can be breathtakingly beautiful, but personally I find a good B-plot ladden A-plot the most satisfying thing to read. I love seeing the characters slowly change throughout a fic and I feel this takes a tremendous amount of effort when there is a concrete A-plot to work out with all its logistics. And an A-plot can include a vignette, in fact--I started with one and moved on from there.

Now, I've begun to write long things before and always stopped once I reached a bump. This time I hit up the idea through copious outlining, which I had to go back and revise every time something got added or taken out, or I chose another angle. I found that keeping internal consistency within the fic was hugely important, but a pain in the butt. I'm hoping that the outline and my wonderful beta will help keep me on track.

Strangely enough when I began other projects I always had problems making them longer, but now the opposite has been happening as the story became a lot longer than I had imagined it. The first time I realized this I felt pretty frustrated. I thought I had actually gotten to a key point, only to find that if I were to leave some parts out, the story would end up flat. I think stuff like this had I not had an outline would make me throw in the towel. The worst part is wanting so desperately to get to the other side, but knowing that you still have a lot of stuff to resolve in terms of the A-plot. Another concern for me is how much is too much? There's a thin line separating 'involved' A-plots, from A-plots that are out of control. There's a ton of maneuvering to do not just in the plot, but also characterization and overall structure.

So that's my experience at any rate. Thus far it's been really hard for me and I'm not even doing a WIP. I definitely admire authors who dare to post as they write a lot more now that I know how hard it is to keep internal consistency in a longer fic. All the same, I think a good outline is essential--having a point to get to first and then working out the details in concrete ways really solidifies the foundation. I mean, I'm sure there are genuises who don't need to outline, but for the most part, I think it really helps to keep a long fic in check.

I really hope I haven't jinxed myself...

Well, I certainly wouldn't put myself in the genius bracket. But I do have to say that I've never outlined a story in my life.

When it works for you as a method, it can be a terrific tool. Or so I understand from the authors who use it. But I wouldn't consider it necessary. Simply because my own personal experience tells me otherwise. So, equally, if it doesn't work for you as a method, I don't think you should force yourself to use it or think that somehow you're doing it all wrong. Different horses for different courses. The best advice I think an author can get is cling on to what works for you and ditch what doesn't. Whatever gets the story finished really.

Outlines bore me. I find that if I know too much of where I'm going to start with, I lose interest in setting the story down on the page even before I get going. What I enjoy most about the writing process is the twists and turns that surprise me as I write, the ideas that occur along the way. So I just don't like to pin things down too much in advance.

Which isn't to say that I'm completely blind at the outset. My usual method of beginning a story is that I get a series of mental images - snatches of dialogue, parts of a situation - and I jot them down in a file while they're fresh in my head. They can be from any point in the story - beginning, middle or end. If I get enough of these to form some kind of coherent mix, I figure I've enough to start a story. Then, it's just a case of filling in all the blank bits in between the bits I've already thought of.

Although, in recent years and since writing for FoLCdom, I've changed this process slightly in that rather than just diving in and filling in a blank wherever - say the first scene I write is the penultimate one or one in the middle - I've tried to restrict myself to writing in linear. Starting from the beginning of the story and moving progressively to the end. Just simply because it's much easier for a beta to follow what's going on that way. It's kind of less fun than darting around all over the place, but by the same token it gives you less problems, too. <g>

The only time I can recall when I did anything remotely resembling an outline was when I had to concede defeat and sit down and workout a timeline for the second half of Masques. I was switching between several locations and timezones by that point and it had become very confusing. I'd probably still be trying to figure it all out if it hadn't been for Kaethel helping me. What a headache! And that did help me keep track of where I was and proved very valuable.

Other than that, I will, very occasionally, jot down a note in a blank section. But it's usually confined to 'insert nfic here' or some such.


LabRat

Well, when I wrote that bit I was specifically referring to those of us who have a problem with writing longer fics. Of course I don't mean it as a universal, but when a fic is more than ten parts or so, I consider whoever gets all the turns and twists down sans previous mapping to be really, really talented. And very, very mentally organized. To my scatterbrained self that's as awe-inspiring as being a genius.

Also, I suspect you and I might have different definitions of what an "outline" is. I have a much more fluid conception of it--I don't see an outline as something that sets anything in stone so much as a concise map. An outline consists of anything that points to where one wants to go and helps keep the "eye on the ball," so to speak. As new things pop up, one can go back and tweak the outline to see how to bring the new developments in and make them work with the original goal. In that sense one can even think of any scene written in advance as an outline in that it guides you to where you want to be. But that also depends on how formulistic one is. I'm very much so, given that I very rarely write creatively and generally approach written work in a detached way.

But yes, some people don't need the help and can sit down and write a twenty parter and more without any clues, just building on what they have written.

That is freaking talent. I'm just sayin'.

LOL! Ditto here. Except that I actually did try it for the first time ever with my current WiP. I had this bright, shiny description of each part and then one morning I decided that the whole idea was stupid and I needed to take the story in a completely different direction. Now every chapter is like jumping out of an airplane and hoping my parachute opens. I'm not much of an outliner!

Which is not to say that outlines aren't wonderful tools and that my stories wouldn't be better if I used one. I just don't. I do, of course, have a mental outline that I work from, and I usually have a series of key scenes along the way that I *know* will be in the story. Sometimes I go ahead and put them on paper and sometimes I don't, but one way or another they're there, giving me benchmarks to meet along the way.

I hope that makes sense. It's kind of like playing connect-the-dots. If I have enough of those dots to connect when I start the story, I have a certain amount of confidence that I'll be able to see it through to the end, even if I'm writing as I go. I've started one L&C story that I would truly love to write, and I think it has the potential to be a good one, but I don't have enough of those mental scenes constructed to have a clear vision of the story through to the end, so I wouldn't dare start posting it as a WiP. It would not be enough to just put plot points on an outline and assume I'll be able to make them happen - I have to be able to "see" them happening in my head, from the beginning of the scene to the end. Do other writers do this? Or do I maybe need therapy?

I also, like LabRat, have been forced to "timeline" on occasion, though I find the activity tedious in the extreme. I need to do it right now, as a matter of fact, which is why I'm here procrastinating and rattling on about process instead of actually working on my story

Best,

Caroline

Oh, definitely not. I'm just tired of not being able to write longer fics as well, and I think it's affecting my vignette plot ideas too. I'll go to write a vignette that's popped into my head while trying to write a longer story, and the vignette will turn out way too cute, or way too "First, he did this, then she did that . . ." for what I was planning, all because it feels like the longer story is turning out like crap and is too short already.

Yup, "verbal diarrhea" pretty much describes what happens to my vignettes when I get frustrated with trying to write a longer fic.

That's the part I always have trouble with. I get the whole "Show, don't tell" thing, but I can never spot the places in my own fics where that applies--it always seems that I've said everything I can say about whatever subject.

As for beta readers . . . I've had a couple before (none in FoLCdom yet), but only one of them (for an original story I'd written) had really told me about that type of thing.

Not to mention, I tend to get impatient for feedback when I've written a story and (bad habit, I know) totally skip the beta stage so that I can post the story on the boards here, submit it to the archive, and get that feedback.

I remember that fic! I think I might've read it twice now--that's how many times I've been through the archive at least. It was an interesting thing--I'd never thought of Clark doing anything other than throwing himself into more Superman stuff when he was trying to get his mind off of things, and that was pretty original.

*Shudder* I did that--once. Although, I didn't really call them "extra" at the time--I was just following what I'd thought was the style I wanted to emulate. I threw two whole, completely unnecessary sub-plots into a (somewhat short--14 pages or so) Star Trek fic I was writing (the very first fanfic I ever wrote), and when my dad's best friend got ahold of it, he tore it up (to my--at first--embarrassment, and then gratitude)--my first beta reader, and that was before I even knew I was writing fanfiction (I'd never even heard the term before I got into Buffy the Vampire Slayer a few years later)!

I know exactly what you mean. But before I get a beta, maybe it would be a good idea to at least know where one of my WIPs is going first. Then again, maybe a beta could help me by looking over my outlines? Hmm . . . something to think about.

Oh, definitely. Not that vignettes and/or shorts can't have both B- and/or A-plots, but I prefer a story I can really sink my teeth into, and if a longer fic is poorly organized/written or doesn't have much substance (despite good or bad organization/writing), then it just doesn't do anything for me. Heaven forbid I should ever churn out a poorly organized, poorly written longer fic myself!

I think that's also part of my troubles--I get so caught up in trying to make the story GOOD that I leave out things that seem frivolous to me, although they might not really be frivolous.

I'd just like to have one epic (or a half-sized epic--100KB-300KB or so . . .)--and possibly sequels. The trouble is, that like you, I also desperately want to get to the other side, and all that writing seems so daunting to me that I either procrastinate so much that I lose interest in the story (or the fandom--that's happened to me before, and I'm determined it won't happen here--I've loved the show too long for that), or the story never even gets started.

Oh, definitely. I think my problem is that I've been trying to use my vignette/short method to write longer fics--just let them flow from my brain to the keyboard as they come (or jot down a note in some margin somewhere about the story idea until such time as I CAN let the story flow).

I tend to forget ideas I've had for stories unless I write them down, and for a longer fics, I think an outline would be better than just margin notes, since I'd have to keep them in a coherent order.

I'd still put the same TYPE of notes in the outline (two or three phrases that I'm sure will jog my memory about a great scene or story arc that I've thought of)--there'd just be more of them, and they'd be lined up in the order I want them in the story.

In a way, I guess you could say that my margin notes are usually my "outline" (even though there's usually only one note) for my vignettes. For longer stories, I think I'll go with a more formal type of outline (indented numbered and lettered lists of notes)--change my method depending on what type of story I want to write, you know?

I can't write the whole scene until I've gotten to that point in the story. Which isn't to say that I don't get ideas for future scenes while I'm still in the beginning of writing. I just can't write them out of order--I'm a very linear thinker/writer. But I do write a little margin note--possibly with a line or two of dialogue if it's something I REALLY want to remember to use--in the margin of the page I'm writing on, or on the printout of what I've written so far. (I take printouts to work with me so that I can write on my breaks without having to send the story files to my computer at work, which is technically frowned upon.)

Same here. I tend to read a LOT of fics on the archive, one right after the other. I would never be able to sit back down to write more of a fic I had left sitting if I didn't have a written plan somewhere--I'd get my own story lines mixed up with everyone else's!

I don't have much trouble with timelines in my own stories. Usually, I know how much time needs to pass between scenes and stuff, and I frequently re-read what I've written in hopes of having an idea for what to write next (or just to re-familiarize myself with the story and what I've written so far after a long procrastination).

But sometimes, when I'm READING stories, I have no idea how much time has passed. I mean, one scene, Lois'll be pregnant or something, and then in the next scene you won't get any clues about time until a page or two in, and then all of a sudden, the baby's five years old! That's kind of annoying, but tolerable, I guess. The worst part is if the author didn't put a scene break or anything (besides a new paragraph) between the two!

Thanks for all your great comments and ideas! I've been procrastinating working on a couple of stories, but as soon as I'm done procrastinating, I'm going to put some of these in practice.

I have some tips for finding A-Plots. I'm sure others have other ideas (which I would love to hear):

1. Is there a bad guy from the series that you'd like to use? Maybe someone escapes from jail... or comes back to life... or maybe at the end of an episode, he just disappeared and never reappeared. If you have a bad guy from the show, see what he/she did in that episode. It might give you ideas for what he/she might do now.

2. Watch the news. There is often some story on the news that will give me an idea for an A-Plot. (Of course, don't tell anyone why you've suddenly decided to start watching the news ). Or watch newsprograms - W5, 20/20 - shows like that. For example, in The Other Woman, there is a group of politicians who are using underage prostitutes. That idea came right out of local news where alligations arose about a group of prominent people in the communitee using the same group of underage prostitutes. I just added Luthor to the equation.

3. Music - although, at least for me, music tends to give me inspiration for B-Plots more than A-Plots.

4. Is there something in your B-Plot idea that leads you to a corresponding A-Plot? For example, when I started writing The People v. Clark Kent, all I really knew was that Clark is convicted of murder and I had all sorts of great scenes in mind for how he and Lois would each deal with that. The problem was that I had to then find an A-Plot that allowed Clark to go to jail for murder which didn't do damage to Clark's character. So is there something in your B-Plot that will allow you to create an A-Plot?

5. Science sites on the internet. I've done that occassionally. Surf the internet for sites about time travel or alternate universes or other such stuff that science fiction is made of.

I'd love to hear any other ideas people have.

ML

Great ideas, ML! I'm glad you posted them--I'd have never thought of the last four. No, wait . . . I did do one short fic based totally on a song. It wasn't B-plot, and it wasn't A-plot either--it just kinda was.

I've sort of thought of the first one, but didn't really know which villain to pick. It might help when I get my season 4 DVD set this November though--I can't remember ANY of the season 4 villains (unless they were used in previous seasons, of course--but then I can't remember what the old villains did in season 4)!

As for watching/reading the news . . . I've been toying with the idea for awhile of getting my own subscription to our local daily paper, but two things always stop me from doing it:

1) When I think of it, I don't have enough money for the subscription I'd want--at least a year.

2) I'd be getting this subscription, and it will take me an hour or two to read through that newspaper every day, at least, which will cut down on my fanfic reading/writing time. Especially since 40 hours of every week is automatically taken by work.

BUT, I have heard some news doozies just by listening to the radio in the morning on the way to work. The weekday morning DJ's often talk about news just as I'm getting a few blocks away from where I park, and sometimes the news is pretty funny/interesting/inspiring/whatever.

For example, in some middle-eastern (or was it African?) country a couple months ago, there was this guy who owed a lot of money to a loan shark, and couldn't pay it.

So, he basically said, "Take my wife, please!"

The loan shark took his wife, and forgave the debt.

The surprising thing is, the guy's wife was OKAY with it! She said she prefered life at the loan shark's house, because at her husband's house she was constantly expected to cook and clean and stuff and didn't have time to herself.

Anyway, back on track:

My B-plots are usually just fluff, and for vignettes, I just mention in my author's notes how the B-plot corresponds to the series, or what I've changed to suit my purposes. I guess I could flesh out and actually write how the changes happened if I wanted to write a longer fic--I've been lazy about that, I think.

DSDragon, thank you for posting this question, and everyone else, thank you for responding.

This topic has come at just the right time for me, because I am struggling with my first long fic. I actually do have an outline, because that is how I work best, but I am having a problem filling in the chapters. But I am working on it.

Random thoughts here...

It sounds like you are a "Pantser" -- a writer who writes by the seat of the pants. This is opposed to a Plotter, who has an outline, timeline, storyboard, whatever to act as a roadmap. Neither is right or wrong. It's whatever works for you. I usually have notes scribbled all over a piece of paper with some notes on each character, a scene idea or two, maybe a snappy line of dialogue that's popped into my mind and ideas for a location. The method that works for you is the "right" one.

Excellent suggestion! And one I struggle with myself. Showing involves strong verbs and dialogue. That example of Clark making all the sandwiches a perfect example of showing and not telling. One rule of thumb I've read is if you can get the information across in dialogue rather than narrative, do it.

Amen to that! I just took an old vignette, reworked it and sold it to a magazine. And that brings me to my next point.

In fanfiction, the characters and universe are already created for you. You don't have to explain who they are, what they do for a living, what they look like, what their backstory is, et cetera. That takes up a lot of page count in original fiction. So your fanfic may be a little shorter simply because you didn't have to create your own universe and characters.

ML gave some good examples of finding plot ideas. I keep a folder of interesting articles I see in the local paper or even on Internet news sites. Most recently was about a jilted bride who used her non-refundable reception as a fundraiser for a children's charity. That little news item is the basis for a story I'm working on now.

Also, ask "What if?"

Just my two cents. Hope it helps.

Ah, but being a "pantser" doesn't work for me if I'm trying to write a longer fic--I get stuck. So, I'm thinking I'm a "pantser" for vignettes and shorts, and I should probably try and be a "plotter" for long fics.

I do that sometimes too. I just don't like to ask "What if?" about episodes/ideas that have been done many, many times already. I like to find something at least semi-unique to write about in my fanfiction (most of my fics so far have been based on ideas that I haven't read about at all, or have only seen one or two stories about in the archives)--which is why I will NEVER, EVER write a TOGOM-based fic.

Never say never. :p

I finally broke down and had a silly 'what-if.' It's probably the longest fic I've ever written...6 pages! Hehe. It's the only time I've ever gotten away with no significant A or B plot...ah, the joys of comedic re-writes!

Jen

I have always been fascinated by plots.

This article is extremely interesting about the history of pulp fiction writing and has several links to plot lists. Plot devices Notice that it's multiple pages.

This one, might also be of interest: The Lester Dent Pulp Paper Master Fiction Plot


Very often people tries to sort out all the basic plots, this is one of the more known ones:

The Twenty plots:


#1 QUEST - the plot involves the Protagonist's search for a person, place or thing, tangible or intangible (but must be quantifiable, so think of this as a noun; i.e., immortality).

#2 ADVENTURE - this plot involves the Protagonist going in search of their fortune, and since fortune is never found at home, the Protagonist goes to search for it somewhere over the rainbow.

#3 PURSUIT - this plot literally involves hide-and-seek, one person chasing another.

#4 RESCUE - this plot involves the Protagonist searching for someone or something, usually consisting of three main characters - the Protagonist, the Victim & the Antagonist.

#5 ESCAPE - plot involves a Protagonist confined against their will who wants to escape (does not include some one trying to escape their personal demons).

#6 REVENGE - retaliation by Protagonist or Antagonist against the other for real or imagined injury.

#7 THE RIDDLE - plot involves the Protagonist's search for clues to find the hidden meaning of something in question that is deliberately enigmatic or ambiguous.

#8 RIVALRY - plot involves Protagonist competing for same object or goal as another person (their rival).

#9 UNDERDOG - plot involves a Protagonist competing for an object or goal that is at a great disadvantage and is faced with overwhelming odds.

#10 TEMPTATION - plot involves a Protagonist that for one reason or another is induced or persuaded to do something that is unwise, wrong or immoral.

#11 METAMORPHOSIS - this plot involves the physical characteristics of the Protagonist actually changing from one form to another (reflecting their inner psychological identity).

#12 TRANSFORMATION - plot involves the process of change in the Protagonist as they journey through a stage of life that moves them from one significant character state to another.

#13 MATURATION - plot involves the Protagonist facing a problem that is part of growing up, and from dealing with it, emerging into a state of adulthood (going from innocence to experience).

#14 LOVE - plot involves the Protagonist overcoming the obstacles to love that keeps them from consummating (engaging in) true love.

#15 FORBIDDEN LOVE - plot involves Protagonist(s) overcoming obstacles created by social mores and taboos to consummate their relationship (and sometimes finding it at too high a price to live with).

#16 SACRIFICE - plot involves the Protagonist taking action(s) that is motivated by a higher purpose (concept) such as love, honor, charity or for the sake of humanity.

#17 DISCOVERY - plot that is the most character-centered of all, involves the Protagonist having to overcome an upheavel(s) in their life, and thereby discovering something important (and buried) within them a better understanding of life (i.e., better appreciation of their life, a clearer purpose in their life, etc.)

#18 WRETCHED EXCESS - plot involves a Protagonist who, either by choice or by accident, pushes the limits of acceptable behavior to the extreme and is forced to deal with the consequences (generally deals with the psychological decline of the character).

#19 ASCENSION - rags-to-riches plot deals with the rise (success) of Protagonist due to a dominating character trait that helps them to succeed.

#20 DECISION - riches-to-rags plot deals with the fall (destruction) of Protagonist due to dominating character trait that eventually destroys their success.


BTW are there some place with plot summaries of the Superman comics? That would be a good starting point because it has always been hard to create a challenge for a semidivine being.

This was very well done in the series IMO, many plots revolved around attacking Superman's values and trying kill his characters rather then his person(something that is just about impossible.)
I would suggest that you try to avoid kryptonite. That is hard. Notice that not even the collective brainpower of Hollywood can create a plot that isn't dependent on the substance.

Wow . . . Thanks for posting that list!