Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Related Deathfic Debate- love 'em, loathe 'em, and everywhere in between...

Okay, I'll start it!

I have a love/hate relationship to deathfic. Most of the time, fanfic is my escape. I don't want reality. I get that in spades in reality! I want escape. I want the good guys to win, the bad guys to pay, and the toys to all be put back in the happy ending. I'll suffer any angst along the way, but I want the happy ending.

Usually.

Sometimes, my mood is different.

Sometimes, a good writer MAKES me read a deathfic I normally won't.

Becky Bain did this to me once with a B&B (Beauty and the Beast) story. Not a deathfic per se, but in that fandom, there are two camps: one where happily ever after is with Beauty (Catherine), one where Beauty died (as in the TV show) and Beauty II (Diana) comes along to help the Beast heal. Talk about a touchy subject- does Catherine get happily ever after, or 6 feet under? I can easily read most Catherine died, Vincent got over it fanfic. Alternate reality and all is a wonderful thing. But then Becky had to write a really good story that twisted a knife in my gut... Catherene wasn't dead after all, but had to walk away out of love. Diana got her man. Catherine had her life.

Me? I had a boat load of hurt.

It haunts me still. Good writing does that. I knew going in I wasn't going to "like" the ending, but there it was, Becky's name on it... and I had to read it. And it's a great story in every way except... no happy ending for me.

Enter this new story about Lois dying at the hands of the justice system. Clark watching, helpless. Me? Stumbled on it. Saw the WHAM, disregarded it. Why?? Because 95% of the time other people's WHAMs don't WHAM me. The other 5%? In a "need to see how bad the accident was sort of way," I can't stay away. I wince, I skim, I squirm, and I keep reading because of the dang good writing that forces me to keep going. I lean into the pain, finish the story in relief, and sit in awe that the written word can cause such strong reactions.

I'm glad that most fanfic isn't deathfic. I don't seek out deathfic. I don't wallow in hours of long stories that end up being deathfic. It's not FUN!

But I'm so grateful for the chance to have my virtual world shaken up by great writing, that I'll keep reading it.

Carefully of course... and with lots of kleenex handy.

Jackie

I sometimes like my fanfic to be nice and fluffy. It's a nice change from the real world. However, if I get in the mood...bring on the heartache! I heard a line somewhere like "my fandom eats angst for breakfast." I don't remember where it came from, but it *totally* applies to me! Sometimes, there's nothing better than a great big bite of heartache. Now that being said, I don't know if I actually want anyone to *die* although I've killed off a main character or two back in the day in some unfinished stories. So it just depends on what kind of mood I'm in. Usually, though, if I'm reading fanfic before bed, I just want something fluffy to fall asleep to...usually.

Jen

I have a totally different viewpoint. To me, deathfic is the most awful thing I can read. It doesn't matter how well it's written. If it ends with finality, with Lois or Clark losing what makes them live and breathe, I won't read it, and if I've been tricked into reading it, I'm furious with the writer. I don't even want to think about such a possibility.

I know that many persons can read it and feel great crying their eyes out. I can't. At 58, I've lost too many people in real life, and seen death and grief too much in my line of work. I have seen people die. Death isn't romantic. It's final, and horrible. Yes, we all face it in the end, but it's not something I look forward to with any anticipation, and nothing at all that I can enjoy, even in a story. It may be part of life, but that doesn't make it any better. Diarrhea is part of life, too, but I'm not going to write a fanfic about it, and a digestive complication is a lot less serious than death.

I read to escape some of the unpleasant things that we all face, and some of the trials that I am currently enduring. Deathfic doesn't improve my frame of mind in such situations and I hate it. I will never write such a story and avoid like the plague any such stories that are written by other authors. To me, Lois and Clark is about hope, not despair. Stories about meaningless, premature death aren't hopeful, and to me are the antithesis of everything the series was about.

If that makes me shallow, so be it.

'Nuff said.

Nan

I'm going to respectfully disagree with you, Nan. I don't think that the willingness to read and write fanfic has much to do with age or innocence. Yes, I'm younger than you are (36 next month), but I've seen my fair share of real life. If I wrote a biography, they'd have to sell it as fiction, but that is neither here nor there.

I think that a comfort level with deathfic or "heavy-fic" (my new term for MAJOR angst without death) has more to do with two things:
1. What the is person experiencing in real life at the moment.
2. How they best process the emotions of tough times in real life.

For some people, enduring a hefty dose of reality is cause to run into the arms of happy-fic for comfort. Usually, that is me.
But sometimes, real life is just too real. Too much. Too intense. And I need to, for whatever reason, keep it together in that real life. But I need a release. A good cry with a movie like Somewhere in Time can do that for me. It's a safe outlet for real emotions that still lets me not "deal" with the real issues.

In other instances, I'm so worked up that I can't let go and have a good cry even if I want to. I'm not a crier. Don't even get tears in the eyes. I feel things deeply, but I don't often cry. It's exhausting, it leave my nose a mess, and my eyes feel dry! But there are times when I simply need to trigger the process and get the release. Crying for a movie or a fanfic etc. doesn't cost as much energy to me. I don't feel so drained as I do after a "real" cry. But it functions as a safety valve. So in summary- a heavy fic or a death fic can help me cope with the emotions of an icky real-life situation without having to directly deal with those emotions as they relate to that icky real life situation.

Sometimes, I even write dark passages to help me process those feelings and get them out. On paper, they free my soul for happier thoughts.

From the sounds of things, your fanfic therapy comes in the form of "escape from reality" to a place where things work out right. All the power to you! In no way does that make you shallow. It just means you know what you need to do to feed your soul. Don't apologize for that! Rather, embrace it and use that knowledge to feed your soul as much as it needs you to.

But I'm willing to bet that there are plenty of battle-worn people that actually seek out heavy stuff to help them cope. Fanfic is a safe forum. It's not real. We can write a death fic off as an alternate reality, what-if scenerio and not cannon, providing a different form of fanfic therapy than when used as an escape, but a form of therapy even so.

No way is better than another. It's just a case of what works for that individual. But I don't believe it correlates to age or life experience. Rather, it's a reflection of how we each cope as best we can.

And I'm going to go even futher and suggest that toying with death in fanfic is a way of grounding oneself in reality when life is going "too well" to be trusted. What better time to explore the issues of life and death than when we're on a natural high and looking down at the valley we know is coming?

Jackie

I'm not sure why people feel the need to be defensive about the fact that they don't enjoy a particular genre in fanfic. Deathfic, angst, kid fic, whatever...personal taste will always apply.

Deathfic is just like any other genre - some people will like it, some people won't.

End of story.

For myself, there are very few genres that I won't read. I have zero interest in reading slash and avoid reading that genre when I find it in other fandoms. But that's about it. Well, kid fic. Don't usually have much interest in that, either. Although, unlike slash, there have been exceptions to that over the years which I have enjoyed immensely.

Deathfic is obviously not going to be to everyone's tastes. Well written deathfic is fine with me. Too much of it is maudlin for the sake of it. But, again, there have been marvellous exceptions over the years for me.

Everyone else should feel free to have their mileage vary and think no more of it. We don't question why some people like a certain published author or published genre. We just accept with natural logic that it would be a boring world if everyone liked the same stories. By the same token, why should we give a second thought to the fact that tastes vary on genres within fanfic?

If it suits your tastes, read it. If it doesn't, read something that does. Life's way too short to be wasting time reading things you don't enjoy.

And I'd second that disagreement on age being a factor on enjoying deathfic. I too have had my share of painful loss - and I'm sure I'm not the only reader of deathfic who has - but somehow it's never connected with reading deathfic. I don't see fiction as real life and so it has less impact emotionally on me. I know that for others fiction is much more real and that's probably more of a factor in whether you read deathfic or not, I think, than age. How deeply emotionally involved you become in the story. How real (or not) you view the characters. Which again, is just down to infinite diversity in readers. Neither viewpoint is more important than the other - both are equally valid as reasons for like/dislike of the genre.

EDIT: I've been musing on it further and I've come to the conclusion that deathfic gives me hope. I know...weird. But thinking back on the examples that have moved me over the years, most of them are in the 'Somewhere In Time' bracket. Clark or Lois existing in some form after death and their love continuing after they are gone. Not all of my favourites fit into that group, but they are the vast majority.

Another thing which affects whether I read deathfic or not is my mood of the day/week/month/hour. Sometimes I'm in the mood for comedy, sometimes for angst with a happy ending and sometimes for the odd deathfic that comes my way. It's all good.


LabRat

I usually don't like deathfic. I haven't lost many people, but the ones I did lose have been painful. The world is an ugly ugly place, and fanfic is my escape.

There are a few exceptions. Dealing with death, I can do. Most of the time. Especially if it's a natural end and not painful. It really depends on the story, though. (I can't count how many times I've read Little Women, even though I know I'm going to bawl)

Just the thought of that fic seems extremely humorous to me... mental images bad.

I didn't say deathfic wasn't for other readers -- but it definitely isn't for me. As a nurse, I have been there when people were dying, and been there when it happened. I was there when a baby died. Not a pleasant situation. I was there when my sister died. That was much worse than the phone call informing me that my father had died.

If someone has written such a fanfic, then I want plenty of warning. I don't want to go anywhere near it. And I want to reiterate. To those who haven't seen death: death is not romantic. It's ugly. And what the people left behind go through isn't romantic either. Those scenes on TV when the person closes his eyes and slips away -- it doesn't happen like that. I know. And you don't get over it in a few days.

Romantic tragedy is wonderful, but reality isn't. It's not something anyone wants to go through. I have, and I don't want a story to rub it in. That was why I asked that someone post a warning in the WHAM thread yesterday.

Nan

Thank God, Nan:
(just kidding )
In general, I'm not a fan of deathfic. The exception is when it is also romantic. How you ask?
Lois and Clark are in their dotage (somehow I relate) and he and she have one last romantic fling or something. I'm also not a fan of giant angst. A little angst is O.K. because it fuels the drama. I like stories with a lot of hope or where problems are solved. But there are always exceptions. I read all of Nan's stories because I know she'll keep my tender little heart safe.
Mostly I just enjoy good writing. Usually that doesn't include authors who write in text messaging format.

Artemis

I'm not meaning to get picky here because I get what you're saying, but I know of so many people my age that have seen more, done more, and lost more than people two to three times our age. It goes with the job sometimes, and I'm thankful I'm not one of these people.

This is the main reason why I would write something that is just unbelievably dark or angsty. Granted I don't need this need for escapism every time I write a piece of unfluffy work, but it helps. And at this moment in my life I AM needing an outlet. While I would normally run into the arms of something happy, I need the cry. I need the heart wrenching agony of made up characters because it lets me allow myself to feel it. Perhaps when life gets to difficult people throw up a wall in order to keep everything out. This way we can feel what we should be feeling. Does this sound weird? Yeah. It does to me as well.

This is something that, had I not known it before a few months ago, I am coming to understand. But I don't think I ever saw death as being romantic. (Romeo and Juliet never did anything for me anyhoo! =D)

ANYhoo.

Other reasons why I would write deathfic. If I'm feeling particularly 'evil' I may write something.

I'm now wondering at how wise it is to post a reply while tired...

I guess I understand, Catherine, but I've simply seen too much death. I lost my sister in December at the age of 55, to non-smoker's lung cancer. I still haven't come to terms with it and deathfic only rubs salt in the wound at the present.

I've never been a fan of deathfic, though. I can't confer great meaning on death. Only life, and tragedy only leaves me with a feeling of tremendous pain and loss, and the feeling that something wonderful was wasted. That's probably one reason why I can't read it.

Nan

My viewpoint on this is that people do die, and refusing to admit the possibility in stories does omit a fairly important aspect of life.

I've killed off characters in several of my Buffy stories. It's a difficult decision to make, but sometimes it's the dramatically appropriate way to handle things. I'll typically post a warning, though at least once I've done that and killed off a second string character to lull readers into a false sense of security before taking out someone major in a later chapter.

Just thought I'd weigh in here...I enjoy any kind of fanfiction that is written well and in character. If the story is staying true to the characters, I can pretty much read anything.

This includes death fic. I read and write in many other fandoms (some of which being Buffy, Highlander, Remington Steele, Angel, Firefly, M*A*S*H, Doctor Who, Lost, Harry Potter, etc. etc.) and all of which have have many varied and different kinds of fic, the least of which controversially is death fic.

I mean, Harry Potter has fics with incest, fics in which Hermoine and Snape get together, slash fics including Harry and Draco, etc. etc.

So when it comes to death fic, it's pretty much a shrug of the shoulder for me as I've seen way weirder (and some of which have been REALLY scary).

That being said, when it comes to death fic I'm perfectly fine with it as long as it serves another purpose (other than to just knock off the character in question). There's no doubt about it that that was exactly what Catherine's story did.

Now, other people have different opinions. That's fine...it's what helps the world function and what makes us all different, so I can see where others are coming from. For some people death fic is just not their cup of tea. For me, it's only a story. I can write a fic and kill of my favourite character, but then I can write another one in which they are healthy and happy and perfectly fine.

We can't ever *truly* kill them until we run out of ideas. That's when I would start to get worried...

In terms of age and experience, I may be younger than some on this list (I'm 23), but in no way shape or form am I a stranger to death.

I watched my Grandfather slowly die from prostate cancer when I was 13. My grandmother lived with us when I was 17 while she died of lung cancer. I can still remember my dad waking me up at 5 in the morning to tell me my grandmother had died in her sleep in the bed that we had for her in the living room.

The body laid there for the entire day before the coroners came to get her.

So I know that death is not romantic and it's not beautiful.

But the beautiful thing about fanfiction is that it's NOT real and we can do with it whatever we choose.

Again, not trying to project my own opinions on to everyone else, just stating my own view of the situation.

*jumps off the soap box*

Hi,

I'd like to say that I'm not a fan of deathfic. Of course, everyone is entitled to their own tastes, but I tend to shy away from deathfics.

Some of my reasons have already been explored in earlier posts, but one has not.

I loved the show Lois and Clark for a number of reasons. One of these reasons was that it celebrated the idea of hope and goodwill.

Lois and Clark faced many traumas, but in their world good always triumphed over bad.

Now I am not naive, nor am I young, and I know that life isn't like that. I also know that sometimes 'death' is not always the worst thing that can happen. Often it is the quality of life that matters and how death takes us is important too.

I can read deathfics which have either Lois or Clark dying in old age. This is the cycle of life and I might shed a few tears, but my sensitive soul can accept that.

I also don't mind reading stories which have serious whams, I even write them, but I do prefer whams which can be put right. In fact, I've even written stories where secondary characters die.

However, stories where, in the end, evil destroys good... and in the case of Catherine's story, which was very well written, where justice which should be relied upon was dupped by evil and became evil in itself, was just a step too far for me.

I write and read fanfic for the same reasons I watched and loved the show. It made me feel uplifted and warm inside. Now this might be considered looking at life through rose-coloured spectacles and I can assure you, I don't do that.

But I do believe that hope and positive thinking is a very strong tool to negotiate the horrors of real life, and anything that can make me feel good about life is a bonus for me, including TV fantasy shows and fanfiction.

As I said at the start of my post, each one to his/her own tastes, but I prefer not to read fics where death is a strong theme.

Yours Jenni

I think I'll have to agree with Nan and Jenni -- I can deal with a little bit of angst (and some stories/authors get me involved with a lot of angst) but tragic death stories (and other WHAMs, to a lesser extent) just make me mad, and scared, and hopeless... and that's not what I'm here for.

It's a funny thing, though -- I can enjoy angst when it's set to music. Country music has a lot of songs that make me cry, and I love them. Rascal Flatts has a song called Sarabeth (well, actually, it's called Skin but you have to hear the song for that to make any sense ) about a teenager who's got a possibly fatal disease... and it's a beautiful song. But I know I would *not* want to read that as a story. Go figure.

PJ

I'd guess I go in between, then.

I can read deathfic, but I really, really prefer not to because they always leave me with a sense of...loss. And I don't like that feeling.

In the other hand, I've written a deathfic of my own (that was for Harry Potter, though).

So, I guess it might have a little bit to with what mood I'm in. And, probably how the fic is written. If the death is non-descriptic, then it's okay. Otherwise...well, there we have the sense of loss again. Plus, I'm very emotional. I cry at sad endings.

And...err, that didn't make sense, did it?

I just googled the lyrics. It made me feel all choked, as it reminds me of what my dad must have gone through. Although not a young person imagining their dreams of first moments being tainted by disease, my dad was a very very handsome man in his youth, and at the end of his life, his skin was peeling off in sheets and his face was all mottled and purplish because of what the cancer drugs had done to him.

(My dad died from a drug reaction called Stephens Johnson disease)

Normally, I don't do deathfics. I am, after all, the girl who threw a huge fit when forced to read Black Beauty for school. As with almost anything else in life, though, there are exceptions to my rules. And the exception with deathfics, for me, is that they not only be well-written but that they have a purpose.

The suffering on the way to death that some people have to endure is heart-breaking and the pain they leave behind with those who love them is truly tragic. Death itself doesn't particularly scare me, though. Nor does it make me feel hopeless. Life is a journey that culminates in death. But as I don't believe life ends there, I can even find death to be a blessing under the right circumstances.

I don't think it can be chalked up to being young and innocent, per se. I'm not going to take offense at that stereotype, because I'm sure it wasn't written for that purpose. Possibly the difference is due to personality. I may be young, but I'm not sure I'm particularly innocent. While I won't claim my life has been the equivalent to the sufferings faced by, say, someone my age who grew up in the Projects, I've lost several people dear to me.

So, a story to illustrate my point seems fitting (since we're all about stories here): When I was a kid, I lived in Kenya for several years; sometimes my dad would take me with him to visit people he was taking care of. We'd go to their shacks, and I saw little children dying from everything from malnutrition to HIV. I would hold their hands while he examined them and watch their bodies waste away to nothing over the weeks until they died. It was horrible and sad, but I'm really glad he took me anyway. It made me realise that injustice does exist, that people who are just as good as I am are dying every day, and that I not only need to be grateful for my own life, but I have a responsibility to try my best to help those who can't fight for themselves. Death isn't pretty, but at least in my case it's a lesson that has stuck with me my whole life.

That's the same way I view deathfics. Gratuitous death does nothing for me. Something like Catherine's story (sorry to pick on yours, but it's the one foremost in my mind ), reminds me of how flawed the justice system is and how that can lead to tragedy. Stories don't let you forget. Stories memorialise the best and worst of mankind. After all, it's thanks to the works of people such as Elie Wiesel that I, still unborn when it happened, know about the Holocaust in a real and intimate way that only someone who lived through it can impart. Hopefully that memory makes me more aware to the possibility of that happening in my own day and age. Stories do that.

For that reason I love them. And I hate them. But they're necessary for someone like me. Even the painful ones. And I venture to think that I'll probably feel the same when I'm old and worn-out by life.

According to my New Webster's Dictionary and Thesaurus, "catharsis" means "purgation; (the Aristotelian) purification or relief of the emotions through art, esp. tragedy". In other words, "catharsis" is the good feeling you experience after you have closely followed the tragic downfall and often death of a person.

Catharsis: the idea that watching and vicariously experiencing the tragedy of others is something that makes you feel good. People, I have never understood it.

How about this old Greek tragedy? A father kills his daughter and sacrifices her to the gods, because he needs a fair wind since he's off to Troy, where he is going to kill and murder and slaughter the inhabitants. Having accomplished his mass murder mission in Troy, he returns home, only to be killed by his wife, who is extremely upset with her husband for killing their daughter. The couple's dutiful son now recognizes that it is his filial duty to kill his mother to avenge his father, and he does so. The godesses of vengeance start hounding the son, demanding that he be killed, until the godess Athena intervenes. She explains that every child has only one true parent, namely the father, because the mother is really only a sort of oven where the already fully formed baby in the father's sperm grows to the proper size. Since the mother isn't her son's true parent, the son didn't commit a crime when he killed her, and he mustn't be punished. The end. This story was one of the most admired of the classic Greek tragedies, one of those supposed to make you feel the greatest amount of purification and relief. So, people, did it make you feel good?

The above tragedy was written down circa 2,400 years ago. Perhaps we shouldn't discuss such very old stories? How about something slightly more recent, such as the 400-year-old tragedies by Shakespeare? Personally I admire several of his tragedies, especially Hamlet and Romeo and Juliet. These plays are so relentlessly logical. If two families are mortal enemies, and a young man from one of the families falls in love with and secretly marries a young girl from the other family, what can you expect but tragedy and death? And if a father summons his son to carry out a mission of vengeance and death, how can you be surprised if the son is turned into an angel of death, so that every important character in "Hamlet" is dead by the end of the last act? I admire Shakespeare's tragedies, because they work so extremely well as cautionary tales, and they are, in their own way, so realistic. That does not mean that they make me feel good.

How about something still more recent? I read a crime-fic (is that what you call it?) about a world-class javelin thrower, who lost his right arm as he was rescuing some children from a burning car. The one-armed ex-athlete became his country's most popular TV show host, someone like Johnny Carson or possibly Oprah Winfrey, loved and trusted by everyone. What no one knew was that this one-armed, beloved TV host was a serial killer, who got his kicks out of torturing young girls to death, keeping them prisoners as he slowly crushed their right arm and let them bleed to death. Killing girls this way is what gave him his sexual kicks. To hide his horrible perversion, he entered into a sham marriage with a well-known woman, who wanted her own homosexual proclivities to be kept a secret from the public. So while this man and this woman were supposedly sharing a matrimonial bed, she was out sleeping with women and he was out killing young girls. In this book, we were introduced to the TV host's latest victim, a 15-year-old girl. We followed her as she tried to get the famous man's autograph, as she went to an out-of-the-way spot where he had promised to meet her, as she was taken to an unremarkable cottage which was in fact a sophisticated torture-chamber. We followed her as he turned on her and expertly caught her arm in a vice, where it was slowly crushed over the course of several days. We followed the police as they desperately tried to find the girl, and we were with them when they actually found her... about fifteen minutes too late. We followed the police when they seized the TV host and arrested him, but even as they did so, they knew they would never get this man convicted. Because there was no hard evidence against him, and there was no way a court would find such a famous and beloved person guilty of such utterly gruesome crimes, unless the evidence was overwhelming. He would be set free again, and eventually, he would start torturing and killing girls again. The end.

When I started reading this book, I had absolutely no idea it was going to turn out like this. The story was very well written and I was caught up in it. Almost up to the very end, I was sure the girl would be saved, although her arm would obviously have to be amputated. I was extremely horrified at the ending. And guess what? Very soon after I had finished reading it, ex-Beatle Paul McCartney married a moderately famous British model and amputee. People, does this ring a bell? Two famous people marry, one of them is a very beloved celebrity, and one of them is an amputee? It is all a sham marriage, so that the two newlyweds will be free to pursue their own quite different sexual agendas... such as murdering young girls? People, can you believe that when I heard of Paul McCartney's marriage, my first thought was that Paul McCartney was perhaps a mass murderer? Reading that book didn't make me feel good, but instead it made me sufficiently paranoid to think, however briefly, that Paul McCartney was perhaps a dangerous person because he had married a one-legged woman?

When I was twelve, my parents took me to see a performance of Rigoletto. In this opera, Rigoletto is a relatively disagreeable person, as far as I can remember. At the end of the last act, Rigoletto is punished. Guess how? His daughter is killed. And we, the audience, are treated to Rigoletto's grief and remorse, expressed in his splendid arias. I remembered that the audience was mesmerized, and afterwards, they broke into thunderous applause. But I was totally, totally horrified. I was twelve years old, just like Rigoletto's daughter. And I imagined that some people might perhaps want to punish my dad for one reason or another. To do that, they would kill me, just like Rigoletto's daughter was killed. My father would grieve, cry and complain as he cradled my dead body in his arms, just like Rigoletto. And around us, interested onlookers would gather. After a sufficient time, after my father was done with his public grieving, the onlookers would start applauding, just like the audience at the opera. They would feel so strangely moved. So sad, and yet so happy. They would be so happy that I was dead. Because thanks to my death, all those other people could get to watch my father's fine display of emotion. How uplifting that really was, in the midst of all sorrow!

I can't tell you how totally horrified I was, after seeing that performance of Rigoletto. Even today, 38 years later, the very name of Rigoletto makes me cringe. So tell me, people, because I don't understand. What is good about deathfic? How does it make you feel good to read about people's death? How does it make you interested to see a character sacrificed like a pawn, just so that you get to admire another character's reaction to her death?

Personally, I'm able to appreciate deathfic only, and only, if it is very realistic and sheds some very interesting light on the reality we all live in. Deathfic about unrealistic characters does nothing for me, except that it makes me feel sad and bad.

Lois and Clark are unrealistic characters, or at least Clark most certainly is. You don't shed any light on the world we live in by telling a deathfic about Lois and Clark. As for Catherine's story, which I admittedly only skimmed, i believe Lois was sentenced to death for one reason or another. But Lois and Clark live in Metropolis, which has long been established as being close to New York. To my knowledge, neither New York State nor New York City has capital punishment. Why would Metropolis have it? Because if it doesn't, we can't execute Lois, which was the whole point of this story anyway?

Would Clark support the death penalty, by the way? Would he bring criminals to justice so that they could be executed, even though he must know there would always be a chance that he might be mistaken about at least one of those he brought to their death? The way I think of Clark and Metropolis, Metropolis doesn't have capital punishment and Clark doesn't support it.

I dislike almost all kinds of deathfic, and I dislike Lois and Clark deathfic even more. Because, like Jenni said, Superman as well as Lois and Clark has always been about the triumph of good over evil. Literally. Also, Lois and Clark are in their own way immortal. They have been around since 1938, and they haven't aged a day since that time. The decades have rushed past, and Lois and Clark have evolved and adapted, but stayed young. This makes them a sort of fairy-tale characters. What's the point in murdering one of them? What could anyone want to prove? That it's fun to kill and break such characters, just to prove that you can? That Lois doesn't matter too much, so that we can kill her in order explore Clark's emotions, just like Rigoletto's daughter was killed so that we could enjoy Rigoletto's fine display of grief? That it would be fun to see Superman defeated and see evil prevail over good? Where is the catharsis in this? Where is the purification or relief? Tell me, people, because I don't understand.

Ann

Just a factual observation:
You did see the episodes The People v Lois Lane and Dead Lois Walking, Ann? Catherine's story was an adaptation of those episodes. New Troy (which is the state) does have the death penalty in Lois and Clark's universe. And, whether or not Clark supports it - which wasn't explored in the episodes - he trusts and respects the law. Up to, at least, the point at which he feels that the law itself is unjust.

As for my own personal feelings about deathfic, I'll try to come back later to explain. Fascinating discussion so far - there are some interesting perspectives being expressed.


Wendy

On LnC, Metropolis is in the state of New Troy, which, according to TPvLL and DLW, does indeed have the death penalty.

This is a very touchy subject for most people, which is why it was never addressed on the show, just like Lois and Clark's political affiliations were never talked about or whether or not they support a woman's right to choose. The only time that the show came close to touching on the subject was in Faster Than a Speeding Vixen when Clark went to interview Peter Massey before Massey's execution. Afterwards, he says to Lois: "They kept filing appeals, so the waiting went on 'til dawn. Boy, you come outta something like that really appreciating.... life." (This is from the script, as I don't have the episode handy right now.) That's not exactly a strong reproval of the death penalty, although it's not an endorsement either. Because Clark values life so much and refuses to kill, I would assume that he doesn't agree with putting someone to death, but he does accept it as part of the justice system.

Sorry to jump in here and kind of derail the thread. You may now get back to discussing the original post .

Edited to add: I see Wendy got there before I did.

I love to read deathfics If they are well written. I have read alot that doesn't make sense, and some that are just not to my taste. I guess I like things to be out of order. Yes, I love to read waffy stories. But I also like things to be shaken up everyonce in awhile. Tank is one of the authors I love to read when my mood leans that way.

I guess I love them. And I don't really see a problem in having deathfics. Cause if everything was the same, it would be boring. Now granted, I don't like to see my fave couple being ripped apart. But I don't like to read the same thing over and over again, either.

That's just my opinion.

Rach

Well, I find it interesting that I am the first one to bring up the question of the death penalty at all. If the LNC version of Metropolis couldn't have sentenced Lois to death, then in time, Lois's name could have been cleared, and she and Clark could have been reunited. Lois would still have been a victim of the injustice of the legal system, but things could have been put more or less right again for her and Clark. And Catherine's story wouldn't have been a deathfic.

Like I said, I respect deathfics that shed some serious light on the world we live in. But in my opinion, if you tell a story about an innocent woman being executed and then fail to discuss the death penalty, you are not trying to discuss the injustice of the real world. You are trying to break your readers' heart, but you are not encouraging them to think and draw conclusions.

I have checked the comment threads about Catherine's story and the comment thread here. No one before me thought of even bringing up the question of the death penalty. I take that to mean that Catherine wasn't too interested in the question herself, and that she didn't write her story so that people were encouraged to challenge the fairness of the death penalty itself.

Let me return to Clark's position on the question of the death penalty. You'd think that, when he saw Lois being sentenced to death, he would have wondered what he himself might have done to other people, when he brought them to justice. Or did he bring them to "justice"? He should have asked himself if he had actually contributed to the execution of innocent people - if he had, indeed, innocent people's blood on his hands.

To me, this would be a legitimate story if it seriously discussed the death penalty, since the death penalty is the absolutely necessary prerequisite for Catherine's story to evolve the way it does. The fact that no one before me commented on the death penalty means, to me, that whatever Catherine was trying to accomplish with her story, it wasn't to make us ask ourselves the most crucial questions about the injustice of the judicial system in the world today. Catherine's purpose was only, as far as I can see, to make us feel extremely, extremely sorry for Clark.

And finally, because I feel so terribly bad about Lois and Clark deathfic, I would much appreciate it if deathfics here had to carry a compulsory deathfic warning.

Ann

Quotes are what Ann wrote. Non-quotes are my replies.

I think it is much like the thrill some people get riding a roller coaster. You can get the crap frightened out of you, but you also know deep down you were never in real danger. It gives the emotional experience of terror/fear/rush of excitement at surviving it... all without real risk.

If I'm in the mood to explore the highs and lows of the human psyche... then yes, I find the experience satisfying. Not "fun" but satisfying.

And that is why have the "nasty" habit of reading the ending of the book as soon as am far enough into it to know who the basic players are. Drives my husband NUTS. But I am never stunned or betrayed by an author like you were... b/c I peek. And I enjoy reading MORE for having done so. I respect those who don't want spoilers. I'm very careful not to accidentally give a plot away, unless asked to. But I love spoilers. They keep me safe!

I think you were projecting your own experience onto the scenerio, which is certainly understandable given your age and lack of warning about the ending. In no way do I want to seem like I am minimizing the impact of the experience on YOU, but I don't think your interpretation refleted other audience members' experience. Perhaps the applause was in recognition of a fantastic perfomance? Recognition that the actors/singers brought those characters to LIFE mere feet from where the audience sat.

The catharsis doesn't come from feeling bad...it comes from feeling strongly and then having it end. You go back to real life more thankful, more grateful, more aware. THAT is the part that feels good. But to get there, you have to pay the price of admission. And frankly, I don't think we'd be able to maintain that intensity on a daily basis and stay sane. If I had to "count my blessings" every minute of every day, I'd go nuts. I need to back off a bit, get the job done. Navigate traffic. Pay the bills. Put dinner on the table. But I don't want to live at that distance, either. Fanfic, novels, biographies... they can all pull me back into a deeper emotional state. I hope that makes sense.


I totally disagree here. <grin> Just because they don't exist and aren't "realistic" doen't mean they can't teach us or make us appreciate the human experience. We relate to Clark's feelings of being an outsider. He's a alien, but we've all been "aliens" at one time or another. So we can learn something from Clark, right? Is how death is handled in this universe any diffferent? We all have to face death at some point. If I can get some tips on dealing with it, or practice in processing some of the issues that go along with it.... I'm better prepared for the real thing when it happens. And as far as this particular story... I'd put money on the fact that somewhere, at some time, a truly innocent person HAS been put to death in the name of justice. And loved ones had to endure it. So even this "far fetched" scenerio could happen to different people, in reality. And their pain is very real. They have to decide how to conduct themselves. Shoot the prison warden? Murder the warden's wife next week? Be there to provide moral support during the last moments? Get hysterical and make a scene? Those are real choices they faced, just like Clark did. And there are real consequences... just like in the story.

I hope this helps unmuddy the issue a bit for you Ann. If not...... can you accept that for me, there is indeded redeeming value and "pleasure" that comes from riding an emotional roller coaster, even if the ending is not uplifting? Sometimes the "fun" is the feeling of surviving the ride. Sometimes the pleasure (REAL pleasure) comes later, when I smell the roses and pause a moment, savoring life. It's not the "sadistic" joy of pleasure DURING the pain. It's the pleasure of relief that follows.

Jackie

Ann, I think the reason nobody brought up the legitimacy of the death penalty is because Catherine's story doesn't touch on that question. And just because it doesn't, that doesn't make the story any less legitimate, in my opinion. It's simply not the focal point. It's like saying Plato had no business writing the Apology and Crito, because he didn't discuss and provoke questions about the legitimacy of the death penalty. Are you going to blame Catherine for not turning a Lois & Clark fanfic into a political statement?

About Clark's opinion on corporal punishment, we can go round in circles about it all day, but in the end there's no definitive answer. We can draw on his personality and come up with a solid argument why he would be opposed to it, but he never came right out and said so. In fact, there's a strong indication that he accepts corporal punishment as part of the legal system.

As for compulsory deathfic warnings, I think that should be up to the author. It gives away the ending and some people may prefer not to be spoiled.

Just to get back on topic, I enjoy deathfic if it's well written, just like I sometimes enjoy movies if the ending's unhappy or ends with the death of a main character. It all depends on how it's done.

Ann, while I understand you're very much upset by having read a deathfic, our policy here is to *not* make warnings compulsory. Usually, authors will put a warning at the top of their story or in the WHAM warning thread if it's going to involve the death of a major character. However, this is a simpler courtesy and is by no means compulsory. We've had debates in the past about making such warnings compulsory, and the admin team decided against it, mostly because it would be an open door to all kinds of warning, like "Lois is kissing someone other than Clark" warnings or "Lois and Clark don't end up romantically involved at the end of this story" warnings. We really don't want to reach that point.

Ultimately, authors make choices, both when writing their story and when posting it with a foreword warning or not their readers. While I understand you were upset, I'm going to ask you to not repeatedly try to interpret Catherine's intentions when writing her story. I'm pretty sure she didn't mean to upset you by writing her story, and she doesn't deserve to be continually pointed at as someone who broke rules - she certainly didn't.

Kaethel
Boards Administrator

For me, it's not the skill of the writer, but the subject- death is death, well written or not. With death there is no curtain call, no second chance, no eraser on the end of your pencil. Once death has come,no tears, or shouts to heaven,will ever, ever change a thing.Death means you are out of time, eternally ,forever, fin.Where is the hope in that?

I repectfully and emphatically disagree. Just because the death penalty wan't the focus doesn't make the story an exercise in angst for the sake of angst. It means that the focus was on the consequence of this "what if" question. In this story, there were certain facts, certain circumstances, that were established. THIS was the hand Clark and Lois were dealt. Here are the cards. Now... given that hand of cards, what are they going to do with them?

The question was not IF poker is a good game. Heck, maybe they shouldn't even play solitaire! Cards might be evil. But that wasn't the question in this story; it's a question for a different story. THIS story asked "What do you do if you find yourself in position X even if you never asked to be here. But life doesn't always ask us before things happen.

What mother ASKED for her son to be on death row? The child she rocked at night with a 101 degree fever. The child she read stories to.... she never INTENDED to see him executed. But sometimes it happens that her precious little boy grows up into a very BAD man. Now what does she do? In my opinion, that about as real as it gets. And if we are forced to think about that mother, that father, that brother, that sister... that spouse... the story did indeed have a purpose beyond making Clark suffer.
Jackie

I have to write a short clarification here. I'm sorry I said that Catherine's story would have been "legitimate" if it had included a discussion about the death penalty. "Legitimate" was a bad choice of words. I mean, instead, that to me Catherine's story would have been interesting and thought-provoking if it had included a discussion about the death penalty.

I really wanted to bring this aspect up just to show what I find interesting about deathfic - the way it can make us realize things about the real world.

To me, though, experiencing the devastating emotion of seeing Lois die can never be worth it, if the emotion itself is all I get out of it.

Ann

SJH's position is very similar to mine. While writers can address any subject in their fanfics that they wish, Lois and Clark, the TV show, was about hope, first, last and always. Even Mxy said something similar to Clark in the comics, when he and Lois were discussing the possibility of children. When a story rips Lois and Clark apart forever and destroys everything they were, I can't see any hope whatsoever in it.

I would be the last person in the world to tell someone they can't write a certain story. I simply tried earlier to make clear the reasons why I can't read deathfics, and if I do read one by accident that I have nothing but resentment for the writer who didn't warn me. I fail to see why my viewpoint is any less valid than the viewpoints of others who enjoy deathfic. As I said earlier, yes, death is a part of life, but so are a lot of things you wouldn't want to see outside of a medical textbook. Just because I don't want to see the death of my favorite fanfic characters in a fanfic, it doesn't mean I am not fully aware of the fact of death. Maybe avoiding it does omit a fairly important aspect of life, but you know what, when I'm reading fanfic for escape, I *want* to leave that aspect out, important or not. I don't want to dwell on death when I'm looking for relief from the unpleasant realities of real life. It's not really something I get any joy from.

In any case, I'm willing to grant my respect to those who enjoy deathfic, but I'd appreciate a little respect for my position in return, so I don't have to feel that my viewpoint is considered somehow trivial because it doesn't happen to coincide with that of the majority.

Nan

No. The point is, I'm a grown-up and I get to choose what stories I spend my time reading.

Where are you getting the impression that your viewpoint is not respected? Isn't it out of respect for your viewpoint one of the very reasons that many writers post WHAM warnings? Your viewpoint is not trivial. I am totally missing where the impression that your position is trivial or not respected is coming from. I'm VERY confused here...

Jackie

I'm sorry, Jackie. I phrased that badly, but it's hard to explain. I have stated many times how much I really hate deathfic, and given reasons, and I'm essentially being told that my reasons are somehow wrong, misguided or something. I should accept death as a part of life (which I am all too aware of, btw) etc, etc. It leaves me with the impression that no matter what I say, the reasons for my genuine loathing of deathfics are somehow unimportant and I should change my attitude, which there is no chance of me doing. I have no objection to the attitudes of those who like such stories, but I really don't like being told that my reasons aren't valid -- and I've been told that by teachers who couldn't understand why I detested "The Red Badge of Courage", "Where the Red Fern Grows" and stories of a similar ilk. It just seems that to be considered someone of real depth and understanding you are supposed to like this stuff, and very few people are able to grasp the really deep revulsion I have for it. I like my stories to end with hope. Despair doesn't do anything for me at all but make me angry.

Nan

I do genuinely understand your feelings on the subject, Nan. I think what puzzles me is that I haven't actually seen anyone here saying that anyone who doesn't like deathfic should change their minds or that their reasons for not liking it are trivial. Various posters have just explained their own particular perspective - why it either bothers them or it doesn't.

As LabRat said way back in this thread, we all have our own preferences, likes and dislikes in fanfic. I'm well known for not much liking babyfic. Though I wouldn't for one moment compare my reasoning here to yours.

I just haven't seen anyone who does read deathfic indicate that they don't respect the opinions and preferences of those who don't. Maybe you misunderstood someone's intent?


Wendy

Maybe. I hope so. I've just run into so much complete disbelief over the years that I couldn't like some fabulous, wonderful story, full of deep layers of meaning, etc. etc., where the protagonist dies at the end. I'm told that I just can't see the deep underlying message in the story, and the thing is that all the great things that happened earlier are completely negated for me by the ending. It gets a little frustrating after a while.

In any case, I certainly have no objection to anyone writing deathfic, including Catherine. I just want to be warned ahead of time so I can stay away from it.

Nan

P.S.: I hated Love Story, too.

Oh, me too! And City of Angels... What a waste of time and energy invested into a doomed romance! (Didn't help that Nicholas Cage behaved like a bloody stalker, of course... )


Wendy

For the record, I think that anyone (those teachers you mentioned above included) that tries to tell someone that their TASTES are WRONG is shallow themself and possibly trying to compensate for it! :-) To imply that you would like something only if you "gave it a chance" or were "sophisticated" enough to comprehend the deeper issues is inexcusable at best. I'm sorry you've had to suffer the ignorance of those people. Hopefully, you'll never encounter that attitude here. But that history does explain your statement above.

Jackie

Understandable, Nan. But I really don't think you've been getting that here in this thread. Reading the thread, I, too, have been very confused as to where you seemed to be finding anyone disrespecting your views or telling you your opinion wasn't valid or was trivial. I could only find posts saying quite the opposite in fact! Most posters seem to be going out of their way to say that everyone's opinion is equal in this.

So thanks for clarifying where you've been coming from on that.

Once again, I'd reiterate that tastes differ and no one need be ashamed or defensive of that. It's what makes us unique as individuals and that's nothing negative. On either side of the divide.

I'm quite amazed actually to hear that your teachers would castigate you for not enjoying a particular movie. That's really quite outrageous. Although, I have to say that I've often come across the same attitude in respect to the 'classics'. There are very few examples of classic literature that I've enjoyed reading and which haven't bored me to tears (although I enjoy many of them acted out on screen) and I don't really see why I should read and enjoy them any more than any other novel just because someone, somewhere, has decided they're somehow special. So I share that sense of irritation with you when someone tsks and says, "You mean you haven't read Jane Austin?" as though it's some kind of social crime.

Anyway...Love Story I can agree with you on. Maudlin nonsense imo. The worst of saccharine, artificial emotion grafted on to a plot.

LabRat

PS - apologies to Wendy in advance for choosing Jane Austin as an example.

Oh wow! Wendy, you were onto something when you said in Catherine’s story FDK thread that this should be made into a separate thread for discussion and that it would be an interesting read. Because this is such an interesting read! I’ve been scrambling to find time at work to get to the site and see the new posts!

After thinking about this a lot, I realized that I am not passionately on either side of this issue. I have two mentalities – my Archive Mentality and my Boards Mentality. When I go to the archive, I am looking for a story and those searches reflect the types of stories I am interested in. Basically S1-S2 getting together scenarios, adaptations of favorite episodes like BatP, Hol, TOGoM, etc. I definitely don’t go looking for deathfics. So when I’m on the archive, I’m on a mission, and a little more close-minded. I know what I’m looking for, I have story descriptions to guide me and make me think I’ve found something I’d like.

Now... when I go to the Boards, I am not sure what a story is about, but I am always dying to see everyone’s work – see what/how they write and how they tell the story they choose to tell. I don’t read every story on the board, but I do read many. And I definitely read many stories that I know I would never read on the archive. I will find myself thoroughly enjoying a story that doesn’t fit into any of my favorite genres or just wrapped up in someone’s writing and style, even though the story is not exactly my general cup of tea

I am the same way with books. I enjoyed so many of the required reading I had at school from grade school through college. But if you put me in a bookstore and told me I could buy any of the books there, those would not be the ones I would buy.

Sorry if that doesn’t make any sense!! I guess what I’m trying to say is the boards allow me to sample other kinds of stories than the ones I stick to, the ones I enjoy the most. I will sometimes not like the stories or if I do, I will only read them once. The stories I love that I’ll read over and over again are pretty much in the archive category for me.

Now deathfics are more complicated, true. And I, too, definitely love the feeling of hope that this fandom provides – that these characters - this classic love story - provides. Seeing one of them die leaves you with a feeling that… well, isn’t that So I can understand why there are many people that won’t read these stories. I’ve seen words in this thread like “catharsis” and “escapism” and, well… they mean something different to everyone. We all read for different reasons. To escape different realities, long for different worlds. It's a very, very personal thing, and it should be! It would be boring if we all liked the same stories, if we all read for the same reasons, wrote for the same reasons… So there will be writers who explore something other writers would run the other way from. And for those writers there are readers who will want to read it… and readers who won’t. And like I said before, I am not passionately against deathfics. I just don’t seek them out.

For me, it’s simple: As a writer, I am constantly in search of good writing that I can lose myself in. Learn from. Writing that can evoke real emotions from me. As a reader – pretty much the same

So I think in this discussion, I fall somewhere to the middle (I'm a Libra, it's my lot in life )

~Nicole

You know, I think I totally read something into Catherine's story that maybe I shouldn't have. Regarding TOC's comment on how none of the comments mentioned the death penalty: I guess I sort of assumed the story WAS commenting on the death penalty--on the tragedy that occurs when justice goes awry. This is what would happen if Lois were to be executed for a crime the audience knew she didn't commit. I don't think I actually mentioned "death penalty" but I'm pretty sure I referred to the tragedy of it all. So, I guess I assumed, perhaps erroneously, that the point was at least partially to do with that. Whoops.

To Nan et al, I totally understand why you don't read deathfics and wouldn't wish to be within a ten-foot-pole of one. Sometimes I feel the same. As I mentioned above, I was really upset at having to read Black Beauty in school. I think most of us were trying to just discuss what we do find worthwhile in them, and why we do think they are worth writing/reading. I guess I was feeling somewhat castigated for liking them, as if I were juvenile or somehow lacking in real world knowledge--but you have said that wasn't the point, so I'm glad

Happy stories are always okay in my book too. My favourite stories, after all, end happily. And if I weren't such a sucker for hope and optimism, I most definitely wouldn't have watched this show. There's a lot of cheesiness after all

You guys won't be surprised that I hate deathfics. Having my 21-year-old son die in my arms increased my intolerance for such stories, but I have always hated stories that tear Lois & Clark apart permanently. That's probably because I am one of those readers who becomes totally immersed in a fic. For me, Lois and Clark have never been made-up characters that I can manipulate like Play-Doh figures. They exist as real people, maybe not in an alternate reality, but certainly in a corner of my heart, and what hurts them hurts me. I'm glad it's that way for some of you. It isn't for me. Emotional rollercoasters that end painfully never leave me with a feeling of relief afterwards. The better the writing and the fewer distractions arising from, for example, overly poetic language or non-American spelling or usage, the worse the reaction. After merely skimming Becky Bain's Ad Astra story, I was depressed for over a week.

Life is too short for me to waste being unnecessarily depressed, so I'm picky about what I read. Unfortunately, the wham warning on the most recent story could have applied equally well to Tank's "Love Disabled," in which one of the major characters was left broken. But his story was still a story of triumph and hope, and because I knew and enjoyed his story, I risked reading this one. Thankfully, I was unable to suspend my disbelief about the time frame of the premise long enough to get involved in the story.

I wish there was a way to let those of us who truly hate deathfics know about them ahead of time, but I can't think of anything that wouldn't impose on a different group of readers instead. But as you see from the way we describe our feelings, this isn't just a matter of preferring one kind of story over another (S1 vs S4 stories) or finding certain subject matter uninteresting (stories about secondary characters or about children/babies). Some of us are seriously distressed when we read these stories. Ah, well, I guess we'll just gritch, either publicly or privately, when we stumble onto one.

Hear hear, Sheila. One of the reasons I get so emphatic, and people get the wrong idea of what I'm trying to say, is my frustration with my inability to get across how fundamental my feeling about deathfics really is. It's not just a matter of taste or preference. It's a basic part of my personality. Others seem to think it's something that is a superficial dislike. It isn't. I hate deathfics with something so intrinsic to me that if I suddenly reversed my attitude I'd be somebody else, if that rather incoherent sentence makes any sense at all. I hate, loathe and despise deathfics. A story that rips Lois away from Clark or vice versa really hurts. I don't enjoy crying over something tragic, whether real or fictional, especially when the person involved is someone I value -- even if he or she is fictional. I can't make it more plain than that, and I wish I could make people understand that. The only thing I take away from a Lois and Clark deathfic is a feeling of vast depression and unhappiness. I don't want any more of that right now -- or ever, really. I've dealt with more than enough of the real thing in the last four months. I don't need someone to rub it in.

Nan

Thank you, Sheila, you said it so perfectly. I agree with everything you said.

I, too, get very engrossed in the stories I read. I identify very strongly with the people I read about. Often I identify, to some degree at least, with every at least moderately likable character in the story, and the death of any such character will hurt me. I will never - and I mean never - be able to say, after I have finished reading a story, oh, thank God, it was only Lois (Clark, Harry Potter, Frodo, Rigoletto's daughter etc) who was killed, not me!

The reason why I want deathfic to be about the real world, to tell me important things about the real world, is that that is the only way I can get over my depression of seeing those fictional characters die. I, too, understand that the real world is more important, and certainly more real, than fictive worlds and characters. You may say whatever you like about a book like "Uncle Tom's Cabin", but it did make people question the system of slavery. Rather than getting all wrapped up in the tragedy of Uncle Tom himself, a fictional character, people felt the need to do something to help those who were slaves in the real world. That's the kind of deathfic that I can appreciate, the deathfic that energizes us and directs our purpose outwards, into the real world.

But just experiencing the shocking ups and downs of an emotional rollercoaster ride ending in the death of a likeable character, without being given a suggestion what to do with my ensuing emotions of shock, loss and despondence, well, that will only make me feel very depressed.

As for deathfic about Lois and Clark, I have invested an incredible amount of emotion into these two characters since I was thirteen years old. Reading about the premature death of one of them is, to me, really like reading about the premature death of one of my dearest and oldest friends. Will I ever be able to like or appreciate that? No, I never will.

Ann

I just thought of something last night which amused me. When it comes to TV/movies I am completely of the opposite persuasion. Especially TV. I do NOT appreciate having my heroes die on me on screen. When a series ends, I want to know that they are living on happily somewhere out there in the ether.

And it especially irks me if it's done...'just because we can'. I might forgive TPTB if there's a solid plot reason for it...but it takes effort.

Still haven't forgiven Joss Weedon, for example, who seems to be of the former persuasion. And the Stargate crew in recent years have had an appalling propensity for killing off characters each season, for no good reason that I can see. (Don't talk to me about Jacob).

I don't know why there's that dichotomy in my viewpoint. Perhaps it's because the characters are more 'real' to me on screen than they are on paper and so I invest more emotionally in them. Who can tell?


LabRat

LabRat, perhaps this is due to the fact that if characters are killed on TV, they're gone and usually don't come back (unless they're named Buffy, Daniel or Lex, or happen to be part of a soap opera cast). If a character gets killed in fanfic, another writer, or even the same writer, can still use them in a new fic where they're alive and well . It's not so final and it's not 'official.'

You know that's an excellent theory, C_A. And, thinking about it you've probably hit the nail on the head.

If a TV character is killed off permanently and the show then continues (think Firefly/Serenity) then I'm stuck with that decision. There's talk of a new series of Firefly after the success of Serenity and to be honest, although I adore Firefly, I'm not interested in watching after what happened in the movie. I'd rather we had no more.

But, as you say, with fanfic, I can go on from reading a deathfic to reading another story where my heroes are miraculously back to life and on more adventures. So I'm not stuck with an irrevocable loss. I can change my mind.

And that probably does make all the difference.


LabRat

I really can't add any fresh opinions to what's already been said, but I would like to express my thanks to those with a different view to my own - Nan, Sheila and a few others - for explaining their views and feelings on the matter so clearly. I really do feel I've reached a new understanding by reading what you had to say on the subject - that is to say, I appreciate the true depth and strength of your feelings. So thanks.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure I'll ever truly understand the nature of those feelings, because I think I'm just wired so differently. The nearest I got was a wonderfully romantic film I once watched, where right at the end, in the last few frames, they killed off the hero. I could have punched a hole in the TV, I was so frustrated. I'd invested a lot of emotional energy in that guy, embraced his melancholy and his slightly whimsical lifestyle, watched with rising hope as he met and seemed to get his girl, and then sat on the edge of my seat when he got into a perilous situation, knowing full-well that he'd survive, because the hero always does, except...he didn't. Argh! But even then, I was only highly frustrated, not deeply upset. In fact, the film clearly didn't have *that* big an impact on me, because about two years later, I mistakenly rented it again and got exactly the same nasty surprise at the end. Duh.

I think the other thing to be learnt from this thread is just how many of us have been touched by death. You really don't get to live very long on this earth before you're confronted by it, and I suspect even those who haven't alluded to a personal experience on this thread have been through some pretty harrowing times with loved ones. What's interesting (and 'interesting' isn't a good word choice, but I'm stuck for a better one) is that there are probably as many different ways of dealing with bereavement as there are people who've been bereaved. Writing about death, therefore, is a difficult and sensitive business.

Yvonne

Wasn't trying to make anybody feel like their opinions were wrong for not liking death fics just because I do (or do if they are written well).

Everyone's opinions are different and that is what makes this place so very wonderful. Nobody has to like everything just because others do and nobody's opinions are wrong just because they are different.

I had a creative writing teacher tell me that fantasy wasn't true "literature" so I agree completely that literature (or film and tv) snobs are the worst kind. Just because somebody says it's a classic doesn't mean it is for you.

And just because some of us like death fics doesn't mean they have to be enjoyed by all.

Lab Rat,

I can understand your frustration with Joss over the fate of Wash on the Firefly film "Serenity"...many fans were left angry and hurt by what happened, but you can believe it wasn't done 'just because he could'. Joss has never been one to kill of a character for random reasons...everything he does has a purpose. Doesn't mean you have to like his purpose, but it is there

Don't know if you saw the finale of Angel but it had a very similar ending in that the fate of the characters remained unkown (but largely in doubt if you get my meaning). I personally loved the ambiguity because Joss meant it as a metaphor for his struggle against the networks (and the fans became part of that as well when we launched the Save Angel campaign). He knew that the foe he was up against (the network) was greater, but he fought anway and that's just what Angel did as well...

Maybe he didn't make it. But he sure as hell went out fighting (as did the fans)

"Personally, I kinda want to slay the dragon"...

Just quickly because I don't want to drag the thread off topic but, sorry, tvnerdgirl, but I ain't buying that one. <g> I saw no reason whatsoever in Serenity for two characters to die. Those deaths didn't add anything to the plot for me and I saw absolutely no dramatic reason for them. To me, they were done for purely gratuitous shock value and nothing else. And, for me, JW does has a history of 'just because'. Remember Anya? It's a trait of his I've never admired. Angel - I'd long since given up on that show before we reached the finale, but that one I don't count in 'just because'. Doesn't mean because he had a reason (or might have had - it's ambiguous as you say) in Angel that the deaths in Buffy and Serenity had value. imo, they didn't at all.

LabRat

One more question, prompted by the types of responses I've seen above. It seems, from what people have said, that the visceral level aversion is a life-long thing. This further supports my view that it's not a reflection of age or life experience, but rather how one is wired. So… has ANYONE? actually moved from one camp to the other? Or perhaps shifted in the degree of your response to deathfics? I've always been willing to read them... and that hasn't changed from my earliest bookworm days.

And I have to ask… what about Black Beauty turned you off, Capes? To me, it was a triumphant story complete with a happy ending. I can see why one would have an aversion to Charlotte's Web or Where the Red Fern Grows (Both of which I loved the first time I read them, as well as in revisits to them.)…but Black Beauty? I'm scratching my head here.

Jackie

Definitely not. If anything, my aversion has grown stronger as I've gone along.

Nan

I have always hated and become terribly depressed by deathfic. I think one of the reasons why I ultimately rejected my Christian religion is that several of the Biblical stories I read as a six- and seven-year-old got to me so extremely badly, especially the story about God drowning all of humanity under the Flood. And then how God tortured and eventually killed a lot of Egyptian children just because he wanted to punish Pharaoh. I also took it extremely badly that God would somehow need to have his own son tortured and killed just so that he would be able to forgive and save humanity.

Good for me, by the way, that there was no "Passion of the Christ" movie that my parents could have taken me to see when I was a kid - not that they would have been cruel enough to take me if there had been one, of course. But I read a positive review of the movie, where the reviewer was nevertheless appalled to see that a morally-superior looking woman had brought her two children, apparently around three and five years old, to see the movie with her.

Ann

Actually, I used to be very violently against any story I felt to have a "sad ending". That was basically all I had against Black Beauty--it ended with a death, so I perceived it to be completely and hopelessly sad.

On rereading it at an older age, I realised the death wasn't the point. But try telling that to a second grader.

I totally understand the viewpoints of Nan and others who hate deathfics, because I felt that way for a long time. As life changed for me, I guess I found that I couldn't believe in conventional happy endings, at least not all the time, so I started accepting others. And as I believe a lot of things are redeemable, I see the beauty even in sadness. Still, there are days when I have to read something very happy just because it is. I like both, but I think I still read more happy than sad overall. Unless it's required reading, and then I have no choice.

Capes, you said something about the story of Black Beauty which I found extremely illuminating, and true. You said about this tragic horse story that
Even though the story ends tragically, the tragic ending isn't the point of it. You will forgive me for saying that this is a piece of totally amazing wisdom.

People, I'm fifty years old. In a few months I'll be fifty-one. It's overwhelmingly probable that I have lived more than half of my life already.

Now let's do a bit more calculating. Astronomers believe that the universe is around fourteen billion years old. For all but fifty of those fourteen billion years, I didn't exist. In less than fifty years, I won't exist again. But the universe will go on and on, for an untold number of billion years.

People, just try to imagine the eons before me when I didn't exist, and the eons after me when I won't exist, either! It would be easy to say that I'm totally inconsequential, and in so many ways that would be absolutely true, too.

But this is what I believe. The point about us humans is not that we are inevitably going to die, or that our lives, from a cosmic perspective, are so unbelievably short. Heck, they are short even from a human point of view - do I vividly remember being seventeen, when it seemed impossible that I could ever become middle-aged, or old.

No, this is the point. The miracle about us humans is our lives. We live. For a very short time - some of us live so briefly that we never even become truly aware of our own existence. Others live more than a century, which is still very nearly nothing from a cosmic perspective. Still all our lives are miracles.

A friend of mine became pregnant after many years of trying to conceive a child. Just a week before she was expected to give birth, her little baby son got so tangled up in the umbilical cord that he got strangled while still inside his mother's body. He was stillborn, of course, but he was perfectly formed, a beautiful little boy. He never made it alive outside the amniotic fluid of the womb. But I know my friend sang and talked to him to him while she was expecting him. We have every reason to believe he heard and reacted to her voice. He rolled and kicked inside her womb. He had his own kind of awareness, and he was a living miracle inside the universe of his mother. He just got a shorter time to live than most of us.

The point is not that we all must die, or that we live such brief lives. The point and the miracle is that we live at all. I want the stories I read to celebrate that life. That doesn't mean that these stories can't acknowledge the fact that our lives will inevitably come to an end. They can indeed tell us that, and even detail the story of the main character's death. The stories can do that and still celebrate life, still make us see that the important thing wasn't the deaths, but the lives.

Stories that leave us with a sense of hopelessness and despair have failed to celebrate our lives, I think. And stories that get caught up in death without looking ahead, without giving us a suggestion as to what we could do to help those who are still alive, they just wallow in death, I think.

Ann

I just found this very intense thread today. Sheila and Nan explain clearly some of my feelings, too.

<<So… has ANYONE? actually moved from one camp to the other?>>

Yes, I'd say that when I was young, I did enjoy deathfics, and my analysis of the reason is that I had not had enough life experience to know those feelings on a personal level. I no longer enjoy a "cathartic" feeling from such themes, in fact I shy from them entirely. Why choose to read more about sadness and loss when life's got plenty?

LaurieD

Black Beauty's tragic ending????

I admit I have not read the book recently. But I could have sworn that the book ended with BB in a pasture of his long-ago owner's daughters. He was looking back on his life, reflecting, and said that he was content. I don't remember the book ending with his death.

The only death I remember was possibly Ginger's death. And then, it wasn't confirmed it was Ginger but perhaps another horse who happened to look like Ginger on the cart....

Can someone who has their copy available double check the ending and email me privately? This is going to drive me nuts and my only copy is either buried in a very scary book cupboard or was donated to a library a long time ago.

Thanks!
This has been a very interesting discussion.

Jackie

I still don't have a problem with death fics, but I do have a better understanding of why some FoLCs choose not to read them.

It all comes down to personal choice and what you feel comfortable with reading. Personally I sometimes enjoy a story that is a bit depressing, but then other times I want something warm and fluffy.

Anyhoo, I enjoyed seeing what others thought on the subject. It's been really interesting.

(Incidentally, "Where the Red Fern Grows" was one of my favourite books in school )

Never read "Black Beauty" though...

Or perhaps something in between those two ends of the spectrum?

Very interesting thread - I'm not sure that those who are uncomfortable with Lois or Clark deathfic are saying that fluff pieces are necessarily their preference. To assume that it is, is perhaps to trivialize both their reading patterns and the stories which they have written as well as the intensity of their personal, real life experiences.

This is not to malign fluff pieces, though - especially those that are sublime bits of piffle.

c (who had no idea Black Beauty was a horse snuff-fic!)

Actually, I didn't read Black Beauty either, so I can't say it's a horse snuff-fic. (Loved that word, Carol.) It's just that others said they felt bad reading it, so I assumed it ended tragically.

The most horrible deathfic I read as a young kid was actually a poem, called Little Black Sara (well, that's the English translation of what it was called in Swedish - it may originally have been written in English for all I know).

Anyway, the poem is about this little black girl living in Africa. And she's dying. She is very, very ill, and there was a picture of her lying down, waiting for her death. And would you know the girl was happy? Well, you see, she was thinking of what the "white teacher" - apparently a missionary - had told her. He had said that Jesus loved her, and when she died she would come to Jesus in heaven, and in heaven she would be so, so happy. And the poem ended something like this:

And little black Sara was made white and pure in the blood of the Lamb.

Even as a kid who had never heard of racism I was uncomfortable that little black Sara was going to be white when she came to heaven. Why? If God had thought she should be black on the earth, why couldn't she be black in heaven?

But of course, it was a lot worse that little Sara would have to die when she was seven years old or something. Why couldn't she be given a longer time to live on this earth?

But the very, very worst thing was that Sara was so happy that she was going to die. She was happy, because she was going to heaven. And this poem was the sort of educating, moralistic piece that told kids what they should feel. I strongly felt that the poem asked me to be happy about little Sara's death. By extension, it asked me to be happy about the deaths of all other kids, too, at least all Christian kids. They, too, would go to heaven. Ultimately, the poem asked me to be happy if I were to be seriously ill and die as a kid, since that would take me to heaven. And if the thought of dying very soon didn't make me happy, it just meant that I was a bad girl, and I should be ashamed of myself.

To me, this is the perfect example of deathfic that doesn't celebrate life, whatever else you can say about it. But, okay, I can see that a kid who was dying herself might take comfort from it. But again, it depends on the child, and I can't imagine ever feeling good or soothed myself by "Little Black Sara".

Ann

You've got it bang on. Although it is heavily implied that the dead horse is Ginger. Ginger's death is really the entire point of the book - the dreadful way that many horses were treated at that time.

The book was written by Anne Sewell because seeing these kinds of events on a daily basis distressed her so much that she wanted to prick the conscience of Victorian society. To an extent she did that and treatment for horses in many ways did improve as a result of the novel's huge success.

But Beauty doesn't die - you're right in that he ends his days dozing in the sun of his pasture, fussed over by the children of his previous owners. In fact, I think I'm right in saying at the end of the book he is even reunited with the little pony Merrylegs, who joins him in his blissful retirement. But that one I'm slightly more hazy on than Ginger and Beauty's fate.

The story has tragedy in it, but it doesn't end on a tragic, downbeat note or with a death.

Incidentally, you can download a free copy of the novel (along with many others which have no copyright attached) here at the wonderful
Project Gutenberg website. This site aims to gather all uncopyrighted material in one 'library' so that they can be freely accessed and either read online or downloaded to your pc.

Seems I got some of those details wrong - it's been decades since I read this one. But here are the final few paragraphs (with spoiler space for those who don't want to know <G>):

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I have now lived in this happy place a whole year. Joe is the best and kindest of grooms. My work is easy and pleasant, and I feel my strength and spirits all coming back again. Mr. Thoroughgood said to Joe the other day:

"In your place he will last till he is twenty years old--perhaps more."

Willie always speaks to me when he can, and treats me as his special friend. My ladies have promised that I shall never be sold, and so I have nothing to fear; and here my story ends. My troubles are all over, and I am at home; and often before I am quite awake, I fancy I am still in the orchard at Birtwick, standing with my old friends under the apple-trees.


LabRat

I've been following this thread since it started, and I thought I'd share my thoughts too.

Before I begin, let it be known that I've never lost anyone close to me, which may explain my current behaviour towards deathfics. Also - I haven't read much deathfic, so a good part of my views is based on literature books I've read that end with, or include, deaths ('Uncle Tom's Cabin', which has already been mentioned, and others). I have the same attitude towards books and fanfics, though, so I guess it's pretty safe to do that.

Deathfic is to me like any other fanfic genre. If it's well-written, I'll read it. Jackie said everything I'd want to say on catharsis, and I must say, catharsis works for me; besides, I'm of the kind who tend to express their feelings out loud (i.e. having temper tantrums etc.). A deathfic or otherwise angstfic has the power to dig in my soul, find all the negative feelings bottled in, and take them away with it when it's over. And that's particularly effective if it makes me cry, too; I love it when the story has the ability to work as an emotional rollercoaster of me, whether of happy or sad feelings. (The fact that I'm a huge fan of comedies must mean something.) A good deathfic/angstfic might make me feel sad, but afterwards I'll remember it and think, 'oh, that was *some* ride'!

Now, I understand that those who don't like deathfic might actually enjoy angstfic, but I can't help it - to me, death in fics is nothing more than an angst tool, and, in fact, my behaviour towards deathfic is the same as towards any angstfic. Some will argue that a deathfic generally can't have a happy ending, while an angstfic can, and that's what makes the difference. Well, to tell you the truth, to me it doesn't make much of a difference. "It's not the destination, it's the journey that counts," as others have said before me. I mean, I *will* be hoping for everyone to end up alive and well, but if they don't... well, that's life. I'll probably get sad, or angry (you wouldn't want to be near me when I first read 'Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix', where one of my favourite HP characters dies. I was mad with fury.) but I'll eventually get over it, and it'll feel good when I do.

Besides, by relating with the feelings of the heroes, I can get to experience things through the safety of living in reality; in the end, nobody will really die, and I'll have become acquainted (if only a little) with the feelings of loss, while I will be feeling cleansed of the negativity that often finds a hiding place inside me and builds up until it's explosion time. (Besides, 'catharsis' means exactly that: 'cleansing'.)

And since someone already mentioned Becky Bain's Ad Astra Per Aspera, I have to say it's one of my favourite L&C fics ever.

Same is my attitude towards writing angstfics/deathfics. I've written one L&C deathfic - it was one of my first fics, and it was far from a masterpiece, but I enjoyed exploring the feelings of guilt and loss through it. And, once I was done writing it, it was great to feel the relief of having the negativity out of my system.

Also, I've got four original pieces, of length varying from 2 to 5 pages. One of them is a story of someone dying, one is somebody's reflections on someone else's death, and the other two are not death-related, but relatively angsty. I wasn't feeling 'down' when I wrote them, the ideas just came to me. When I told my best friend about them, she shuddered. "Why be so macabre?" she asked. I didn't know what to say, except that my mind just worked like that at that moment. I can only say one thing for sure; it was satisfying to write these pieces. And I like reading them as well. For all the reasons I mentioned above.

BTW, Lab - that's one awesome link.

And one question: Is, say, a fic about Mayson's death considered a deathfic? I mean, of course it includes death and everything, but she dies anyway in the show.

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

I've talked so much about this that I must be boring everybody to tears by now. Hopefully, this will be my last comment in this thread.

When I was a kid, I noticed that most stories were about men, whereas a disproportionate number of deathfics were about women. Although I couldn't express it in so many words, I did feel, from a very early age, that men's lives were considered more important than women's and women's deaths were considered less important than men's.

When somebody's life - anybody's life - is used just so that I can experience a "cleansing" by imagining it being snuffed out, I don't feel cleansed, but enraged as well as depressed. I think the value of human life is being reduced and demeaned that way.

But especially, just because I feel that women's lives are generally considered cheaper and less valuable than men's, I get particularly enraged when a woman is killed either to offer us "cleansing", to allow us to wallow in death and still remain untouched by it, or to make a male character experience some interesting emotions. Rigoletto, Lot, Clark and even Black Beauty were treated as the natural and obvious protagonists of their stories, while Rigoletto's daughter, Lot's wife, Lois, Mayson and even Ginger the mare were the female sacrificial lambs, those whose lives were considered cheaper and less interesting than their male counterparts', and who could therefore be killed while their male counterparts lived on.

I'm a feminist, but I don't think I'm too extreme most of the time. But nothing, honestly, makes me more furious than seeing women's lives, their very existence, being considered less interesting and cheaper than that of males, so that they can be sacrificed just to elicit interesting reactions from the males, who are regarded as the main characters anyway. I will never, ever like a story that treats men as people and women as cannon fodder. I will always hate any Lois and Clark story where Clark is treated as the main character and Lois is a plaything or a tool which can be tweaked and bent in various directions just so that we get to watch Clark react.

Ann

I can see where you're coming from Toc, and it's a valid point.

I enjoy death fics, but that doesn't make the observation any less astute. I can definitely see why you would feel that way about death in books, shows, films, etc.

One of the reason I liked the show "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" as much as I did was because Joss saw the exact same thing in death in fiction or tv that you have just described.

In fact, the reason he created Buffy was because he was tired of seeing the typical horror movie in which "that blonde girl walks into an alley way, and is killed by the creature waiting for her." He didn't like the way horror films didn't seem to value human life (using them as cannon fodder), and he started "feeling sorry for that blonde girl". He wanted to see her "take back the night"

So in the very first scene of the first episode of Buffy "Welcome to the Hellmouth", Buffy (the blonde girl) does indeed walk into an alley way, but this time she is not only ready for him, she trounces him.

Joss never considered himself a feminist per se, but he did see the value in his characters lives, and although he killed some off it was never (and I still beleive this) pointless. Sad, yes. Pointless, no.

Lois and Clark was always rather good in that, nobody really died...but then again it kept some of the more interesting stories from being told. I would have liked to see Clark deal with the fact that he used that Kryponian move (the one where the block everything out except the desire to kill)on Nor. I mean, somehow it *didn't* kill him (the kryptonite did), but I felt that was a bit of a cop-out.

Clark's killer instinct (an inherant Kryptonian trait) *was* there. I was somewhat disappointed that they didn't deal with that on the show. Do I mean they should have had Clark actually KILL Nor? Well, maybe not given the show's rating and timeslot...but at least have Clark deal with the fact that he had it in him to kill Nor.

I would like to see a fanfiction however, in which he does. Technically that would be a death fic, but one in which another purpose is served.

Not all deathfics are Lois deathfics. (Incidentally if there is one out there with this particular plot line I'd love to know about it).

Anyway, I guess I'm just rambling.

Not trying to change anybody's view point, just mentioning one of things that always frustrated me about the series.

And I never liked that they killed Mayson. I *liked* Mayson and her death was indeed pointless. Besides, I always thought she and Dan Scardino would have made a good match

-tvnerdgirl
Anya: "Let's go assemble the cannon fodder"
Xander: "Sweetie, we're not calling them that..."
Anya: "Well not to their face!"
---

If you are looking for a violent Clark, you could try reading "The Heir: Healing" by Piper and Peace. You'll find it under "Peace" at Annesplace. It's a beautiful story, but I find it disturbing, mostly because Clark comes home from Krypton a changed man, more violent. He actually hurts Lois, not badly, but still. Well, people, this is an interesting question. Counsellors keep saying that the woman should leave her partner the first time he is violent with her. I felt bad enough about what Clark did to Lois in that story to feel he didn't really deserve another chance with her. I don't think most of you would agree, however.

And for those who want to see Clark kill, I'm sure I've read a story where Lex Luthor rapes Lois, and Clark responds by killing Lex. I'm fairly sure I read it at Annesplace, too, but I have no idea who wrote it or what it was called. Personally I really didn't like it, because I don't want to see Lois raped, and I don't want to see Clark kill. But anyone who wants to see Clark give in to his Kryptonian killer instinct should read it. Perhaps somebody out there knows which story I'm talking about?

Ann

I would like to point out that in the deathfic I wrote it was Clark who died...

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

You and me both. I *despise* all those movies that start with a happy family, then the wife and/or kids are killed (in some horrible unjust way), so the hero has something to do for the rest of the film. Hate them, hate them, hate them. One of the things I like about L&C is that Lois is rarely a helpless female waiting around for Superman to save her... she's in there kicking and fighting and not infrequently saving the day.

Which actually reminds me of a funny link... be glad you're not married to any character Harrison Ford ever played .

PJ

Anna posed an interesting question a while back about the deaths of minor characters (Mayson Drake, Dan Scardino, Jack [whose last name I cannot recall]) as opposed to the deaths of major characters (Lois, Clark, Perry, Jimmy), and I haven't seen an answer to it. Is it a deathfic if Lex dies? Or do we applaud that and write filksongs about it?

Is it okay to knock off Lana Lang? How about allowing Clark's or Lois's parents to die in the far future? Or is that a no-no, too?

What about criminals who try to trade their heads for Clark's (Spenser Spenser)? Is it okay to quick-freeze them and then shatter them like a cheap mirror?

I guess what I'm ranting about are guidelines. If there are any, I don't know what they are. I respect the preferences of those who don't want to read deathfic, but those of us who consider death to be a viable plot twist need to know how to label it when we do bump off somebody. I understand not wanting to see Lois or Clark die. I did a story last year where the alternate ending (which I did not post) saw Lois die and Lana live on. I didn't use that ending for a number of reasons, one of which was that I wanted to see Lois live on. But should that story have been labeled a deathfic? I honestly don't know.

Assuming that the character in the story is someone I like, having that character die for no good reason is extremely unsatisfying to me. It smacks of cheap opportunism and an attempt to shock the reader instead of uplift him or her. If, however, Lois were to die while preventing a nuclear war which would cost millions of lives, it would be something I could read and understand and even applaud, since she would have died to save the lives of others.

Having written that, I also understand that there are those who would not want to read that story irrespective of the nobility of the sacrifice. No problem. I have written before that not everybody likes everything, and that's perfectly okay. I am less drawn to the emotional aspects of Lois and Clark than I am to the dramatic potential. Doesn't mean I won't read the angsty relationship stories, or that I think they shouldn't be written, it just means they aren't my favorite.

It's the same reason I almost never flip over to the N-fic folder. The few things I've read there appear to be cheap attempts at soft porn, and I frankly don't care for it. So I don't read it. Doesn't mean someone else can't write it or read and appreciate it. But I'm glad it's over there, clearly labeled, so I know what I would be getting into.

From now on, if anyone dies in any of my stories, I will put a warning in the WHAM folder. I would not want anyone to feel cheated or tricked into reading something they would prefer not to. And please don't take this as petulance, because it's not. I really do appreciate the viewpoint of those who detest deathfic. I don't quite share it, but I do respect it.

You know, we never saw Asabi die in the series, either. Hmm...

I totally agree, Terry. This would have been a noble, selfless death, the kind of death that would have celebrated the life of the dead person.

This kind of deathfic may still depress me, but I'll never get infuriated by it. I'll never feel it was cheap. I'll never feel it sacrificed a character to cheap effect. I'll never feel that such a deathfic treats the dead person as if he or she was irrelevant in himself or in herself, as if that person only matters because others react to his or her death.

As for minor characters, I never like to see anyone die for no good reason. I don't want to see Lana or Mayson or even Dan Scardino die. I'd really feel upset about watching Jonathan or Martha die, or Perry. I could accept it, since they are old people, and as for Perry, we know he has "died" already. Or the actor who played him so memorably in the ABC show has died. It must be okay to write a fanfic story about Perry dying too, but I'll never like it much. (What about Jimmy dying? Frankly, I can't even imagine anyone writing such a story - well, except Tank! And, okay, I admit it - I do think Tank's death-of-Jimmy-fics are slightly funny. But I can't imagine anyone killing Jimmy for a, well, non-Tank reason. And I most decidedly wouldn't like it.)

I'll never be upset by the death of Luthor, on the other hand. Luthor is the sort of person who has done so many bad things, and who must really have so many enemies, that it can neither be surprising nor upsetting to see him die. And as for bad guys and villains in general, I'll never be upset by seeing someone die while they're trying to bring about somebody else's death.

But then, I'll never read a story just to wallow in a villain's death, either. And I'll never be sorry to see Luthor or any other villain survive. I'm never, and I mean never, here to read about anybody's death, just because I get some sort of a kick or a thrill out of it.

Ann

Not that I'd ever want anyone to read nfic if they have any kind of aversion to it, but I do feel compelled to respond to this one, Terry.

Just like any other genre, nfic covers a wide range of themes. Some are what we tend to term 'nfic romps' lightweight, mind candy, PWP, nothing but the characters indulging in a bit of sexual slap and tickle. Others are more serious-minded and integrated into a story about other themes. In some the sexual element is used as a springboad to explore other areas of the relationship between the characters.

Certainly, there are many nfic authors out there who put as much hard work into their nfic stories as any other author here and who would be deeply offended to hear their stories labelled as 'cheap attempts at soft porn'.

As with any genre - hold fast to your opinions on it, if you don't like it, don't read it, but please treat those who don't share that opinion and their work with respect.

I should probably point out, too, that the nfic folder isn't only for stories of a sexually explicit nature, but for stories which contain adult themes. Granted, the sexually explicit ones make up the greatest chunk of stories posted over there. But you will find some which contain no sex at all, or very little of it, but which are posted there because they breach the PG13 barrier in other ways.

Now returning you to your previous debate. <G>

LabRat

And returning to that debate...

...you bring up an interesting point, Terry, on who exactly merits the label deathfic. I thought I had an easy answer to it, but then I started typing and it got more complicated as I went along.

I personally wouldn't count any villain in a series. Mainly because I think part of their purpose in being there at all is to die. <g> The hero has to triumph over them. Sometimes that means they get led off to prison. Sometimes it involves a more painful exit.

Other than that, for LNC, I'd consider it a deathfic if any of the principle characters die. That would be Lois, Clark, Jimmy, Perry, Martha, Jonathan, Cat...think that's everyone. As with any such lists, I'm now convinced I've forgotten someone.

However, I think a deathfic is about more than just the characters chosen to die. I think for a story to be labelled a deathfic it has to be specifically about the character's death and how people react to it.

I've read many stories, for example, where Jonathan dies or Perry dies during the story, but it's part of a wider story and not the whole focus of it. And it's never struck me as I read that these are deathfic.

Having said that - as my mind grows ever more fuzzy on this issue where once there was clarity - if it was Lois or Clark who died - in any story - I'd probably consider it deathfic.

Does that makes sense?

Thought not.



Right. Okay. The conclusion I've reached then...

...nope. I got nothing.

LabRat (off to have breakfast and watch Judge Judy instead, which seems to be the extent of her mental limits right now )

Oh, dear.

You see, the discussion has now touched on one of my pet hates, and I just can't resist the opportunity to vent.

The pet hate in question is putting labels on things. Putting things in boxes. Categorising them. I hate it. You see, as soon as you put a label on something, it's a reason for the thing to be avoided. Excluded. And life becomes so predictable and dull, I think, if you only ever sample the things with nice, safe, pre-packaged labels.

Terry did it, quite unintentionally, I'm sure, with nfic. In the pre-packaged, short-hand world of labels, nfic equals soft porn. Terry doesn't want to read soft porn, so Terry doesn't read nfic. And thus misses out on all the nfic stories where there is very little or no sex.

We're all doing it with deathfic. Label a fic deathfic and immediately you'll repel anyone who doesn't want to read about major character death. But what if your definition of deathfic isn't the same as the next person's? Labrat is struggling like crazy just to voice her own thoughts on the subject, let alone put together a definition to which we could all subscribe.

Yes, I know we have to label things. Minors have to be protected from explicit sex and extreme violence. People will nut allergies really do need to know if the chocolate bar they're about to eat contains even a trace of nut.

But I do yearn for fewer labels on works of art (and here I'm including all forms of art, from music and dance to literature and poetry). Let's open our minds and sample whatever comes our way, instead of finding reasons *not* to try stuff.

I now return you to the deathfic debate.

Yvonne

...which is not to disrespect the reasons Nan and others gave for avoiding deathfic.

Deathfic not really my thing, it's not really L&C to me, but it's just a matter of taste.

But I would like to break a lance for Nfic. There are light stories with gratious sex, but they are quite easy to recognize and skim if that is not your pleasure.
But many has an enormous depth dealing with complex adult issues. If people skip them because you think they are soft porn you have missed a lot.

Hmmm, but the problem with this reasoning is that it assumes that labels exist ONLY to exclude things and they don't. This is particularly true with genre labels of any kind. They exist because that's what the consumer buys or wants in enough quantity to get someone's attention. That's both inclusive AND exclusive. I don't look for certain type of book to buy and read just because I don't want another type but because I have a finite amount of time and want to start with what I enjoy.

Does that mean I never take a chance on anything else outside my comfort zone? No. It simply means I'm very selective when I do. I want some information ahead of time so I know what I'm getting into and not simply to keep from squirming. It's also to be more fair to the artist. That informed choice on my part does not diminish the work of art but rather enhance it for me because when I'm more informed ahead of time I tend to judge the work not based on my own expectations but rather on what the artist was attempting to do.

I still may not like it overall, but at least if I'm informed ahead of time then I'm not misled from the start and letting that seriously color my judgment.

Just a thought, but is it possible that this is all a case of missing the forest for the trees? I'm not sure I can explain this but seems to me that this is a case of looking at something, i.e. labeling a story as deathfic, as being about content when it's actually truly about intent, usually intent on the author's part. (Not saying labeling is never about content, just that some labels aren't and I suspect deathfic is one of them.)

Why would most not get upset over the villain in a story dying? Probably because the intent of the story most likely wouldn't be directed towards exploring anyone's grief over it happening.

OTOH, why would so many get truly upset by Lois dying in a story? Probably because the intent is to explore Clark's grief in most cases. This is why I hesitated to post those first tentative parts of Atonement. My brain said it wasn't a deathfic because Lois was already dead. My heart, however, was telling me that my honest intention was most likely to explore Clark having to face the choice of going back in time in an attempt to save her. That is very much directly related to her death and his grief over it. How can it not be? Will it ultimately be considered a deathfic by anyone else? Heck if I know. The only thing I do know is that my own intent gave me pause. Still does if you want the truth.

And isn't the same true of the nfic label to some extent? We can say it's about content and I'll not deny it is related to a content threshold at the very least but in order to cross that threshold the author has to willingly choose to explore certain themes in the first place. Or they can choose not to and that is the crucial turning point to me.

I've only written one nfic. It's probably one of the least graphic stories in the archive but I've know it's nfic because all along my intent was to explore the sexual side of L&C's relationship. That is not PG material no matter how much actually sex is in the story.

I guess what I'm trying to do is make an observation that there seems to be an assumption that a deathfic label is only about giving away the ending to a story, i.e. it's content. Seems to me that's only true if the author's sole intent is to kill someone and only that. Is that truly the only intent of every fanfic where someone dies?

Because if it isn't . . .

Actually, I wasn't thinking of a 'label' in that context at all. I was merely thinking of what constitues a deathfic for me, while I'm reading it. Do I class it as deathfic or not? In the same way I'd say a story I just read was a kidfic or a tearjerker.

I wasn't at all thinking of it in the context of labelling a fic in respect of 'does it need to be labelled so those who don't like deathfic can avoid it'. Despite it being the core debate on this thread, that aspect just wasn't in my mind at all when I last posted.

LabRat

When all is said and done, a writer has to go where the story leads.I dont have to like it, but I do respect it.

Ok, I admit that I have not been reading this whole thread and see that I need to. I've been skiming every once in a while and happened upon Yvonne's above comment.

I am floored. and must admit my naiveté. I thought all nfic was about sex in some way shape and form. I have avoided getting a password for just such a reason.

Personally, I have nothing against violence. I'd rather not read things with truly rough language, but I will make exceptions. I flat out hate pre-marital sex or slashfic, thus the questions I sometimes email some authors or the warnings I get from others (a thank you to those who have warned me ), but that is another soap box, which I may or may not get on in another thread...

I would get a password to the Nfic forum and to Annsplace this second, if I could easily pick the stories that I could read without worrying blundering into soft porn.

As for deathfics...I don't particularly enjoy them, but if they are well done, maybe. Deathfics, to me, are about introspection and I am just not that crazy about that stuff.

James
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I've read this through three times and I still can't figure out where this is different or in opposition to what I said because I wasn't talking about "does it need to be labeled" either. I was talking about the fact that individual elements within a story, like a death or sex, aren't always what the story is really about. Nothing more than that.

However, I also acknowledge that their presence can very well cross a well-defined threshold for many people. I'm not sure the same thing can be said about kids or simple angst.

No answer, just more questions. Really.

You know, this debate has pushed a lot of hot buttons with a lot of people. While reading back through the comments (all of which are valid, and most of which are quite eloquent), I noticed some themes emerging.

Some people hate reading about death. Period. End of sentence. End of discussion.

Some people hate reading about the death or deaths of characters they love.

Some people hate reading about senseless, meaningless death.

Some don't mind if it moves the story along.

Some can accept a story with death in it if the death is somehow noble or self-sacrificing and either saves lives or makes many others safer in the future.

Some think every character in the story has concentric rings painted on his or her back and a neon "Shoot Here" sign pointing at the bullseye.

Just kidding about the last one. But it does show that different people have different tastes and different preferences. Just because I'm willing to kill off one or more of the characters in my story doesn't make it a bad story. (It also doesn't make it a good story.) Those authors who wouldn't write about a chipmunk getting run over haven't cheated the reading public by letting them know that death doesn't visit their stories.

And please, don't think I was bad-mouthing those who write n-fic. I was merely expressing my preference, just like everybody else has. I will never tell any of those authors that they can't or shouldn't write n-fic, but it's highly unlikely that I'll read it if the main theme is sex. Again, that is my personal preference.

My preference isn't the standard by which everyone else is judged, and it shouldn't be. That doesn't mean my preference isn't valid. The readers who don't want to read deathfic have a right to know that someone could die in a given story, and there's no reason to assault their sensitivities by refusing to let them know in general what's coming.

And despite all the very interesting discussion, we still haven't really landed on any deathfic guidelines. I was trying to ask a serious question in a whimsical manner in my earlier post. Would it be a valid guideline to say a major deathfic covers the death of a major positive character (like Clark or Jimmy or the Kents) and a secondary deathfic might describe the death of a secondary or original character?

That brings me to "The Write Stuff." It describes the deaths of four people, three of them murder victims and one rather messy suicide. All of them were original characters within the story. Is that story a deathfic? If so, is it a major or a secondary deathfic?

Please don't take this as whining. I really would like to know, because I don't want to offend anyone. Really. If I do, it's unintentional, and we're here mainly to have fun, right?

Not really, James. I haven't been on the nfic boards on this site, but judging by the list of stories nominated for nKerths, a lot of stories that appear are the same ones that appear on the fanfic forum ... with an added scene or two or three. I hesitated to say this, but I'll go ahead. The references to nfic as porn really offend me. The definition of "porn" is "creative activity (writing or pictures or films etc.) of no literary or artistic value other than to stimulate sexual desire." Since a number of the works on the nfic archive are "n" versions of Kerth winners, I don't think that description applies.

Sorry for the digression. Back to Terry's question about guidelines for deathfic. I thought the board's policy was not to require any kind of labels from authors, so I thought we (the non-deathfic readers) were just explaining our views, not trying to set guidelines.

Terry, I can't imagine how you could give a warning. I guess if Clark hadn't made it back from saving the world from that huge chunk of Krypton in "For the Greater Good," Wendy could have said, "Nan and Sheila keep away, but Ann can read this one." Catherine's recent vignette could have carried a "Nan, Ann, and Sheila keep off" warning. Since the problem for me is the death of Lois or Clark, a Jimmy, Martha, Jonathan, or Perry deathfic could carry a "Sheila can read this one, but Nan and Ann stay away" warning. You could have a little rating system: any death = No Nan; any story in which Lois or Clark dies = No Sheila; and any story in which someone dies without a heroic sacrifice, etc. = No Ann.

I'm being a little facetious because I truly don't see a fair way to warn people, especially with so many variables involved. I'm also unsure how Nan feels about the death of a villainous character. When Phil was planning the demise of Luthor in his final S6 ep, I was cheering him on every step of the way. If Nan feels that way, maybe the rating system could apply only to deaths of the good guys.

I've really tried very hard not to post again (honestly!), but Sheila's great rating proposal did me in. It works! I say we encourage mbs Admin to adopt it.

But now, since I find myself here .... personal opinion warning.

Part of the issue is that when we read fanfic we bring with it the baggage from the show - we already know and care for both the characters of Lois Lane and Clark Kent (and if we don't why are we hanging out on mbs dedicated to Lois and Clark?) . So when a fic kills either character prematurely or even begins with one of them dead, I am, as a reader bereft, a place I don't want to be. (been there in RL - it's not a great place and it's not one you ever truly leave)

For me, such a story is definitely a deathfic - I want to know upfront and not spend time reading a story only to find out the author has eliminatd one of the characters I love.

What about the secondary characters (Perry, Jimmy, the Kents, Ellen, Lucy, Cat?) That's distressing, too, although it depends on their age - Martha, Jonathan, Perry, set say 20 years in the future ...

Bill Henderson ... absolutely not, no, never, ever. A plea to death-writers, We'll give you Clark if you let us keep Bill!

Now an admission - I've written stories in which characters (not the bad guys) have died (well, okay, I as the writer killed them - the smoking keyboard is in my house.) I don't know what to think about that now.

Yes, the "woman demoted to plot device" use which others have mentioned. But more than that - also because Lois is a character in her *own right* for whom many of us care a great deal.

I'm not sure it's as easy as that for some readers to accept though because she already exists so firmly in our minds and hearts. She's not an orginal character whom we've never met before.

Yes, unless at the end he has made the decision to reverse time (as he did in the frist Reeves movie )

Btw, I was really excited when I first saw Beverly had posted a new fic - one of my favourite writers from the past. Sanctuary is terriffic.

Which bridges to nfic

Way too long a post already, though.

But, motion to adopt Sheila's warning system.

c

Your preference is perfectly valid, Terry. And there is nothing in my post to say otherwise. And no one here would object to your expressing that preference. Providing you do so within the guidelines of this forum.

What isn't valid is telling another author on this forum that their work is 'a cheap attempt at soft porn'. That's coming as close to flaming another board member as is possible. It's offensive and disrespectful.

Sadly, not, Terry. You went much further than simply expressing a preference.

You say that you didn't intend to badmouth nfic or its authors. But quite frankly I'm not sure how you expected telling an author they are writing cheap attempts at soft porn to be taken as anything else but badmouthing. It certainly wasn't a compliment.

Do I think you intended to cause offense? No, not at all. You're not a troublemaker and I don't believe you'd deliberately set out to offend anyone.

Do I think you simply didn't think it through before typing that comment? Yes. I believe that's probably true. Which is why I'm advocating that a little extra thought time before you hit post might be a good idea.

But no one has - or will - ask you not to give your opinion. You don't like nfic. Cool. You want to say so. That's fine. All that you - or anyone else - is being asked to do is think how you word that preference when you express an opinion about it and respect your fellow board members in the language you use.


LabRat

Sheila, how come you manage to say the things the rest of us are struggling to express?

So, let me formulate the No Ann deathfic warning. The story you'd better warn me off goes like this. Lois is alive in the beginning of the story, and she gets killed at or before the end. She doesn't die a natural death, but she gets killed (or executed - basically the same thing). The story is told in such a way that Clark and other family members don't grieve too much over her death (in which case I won't even be appeased by her return to life). Or else, Clark's grief is the whole point of the story, whereas Lois herself, as a person, is unimportant.

These two kinds of Lois deathfics not only kill Lois, but they also tell us that Lois was never important in herself when she was alive. We are not asked to take an interest in Lois herself in these stories. We are not asked to identify with her or to wish her well. She is, I think, either treated as an appendage or an accessory which can be discarded since she/it doesn't matter anyway, or else she is treated as Clark's pet interest and obsession, which could have been Krypto the dog for all the difference it would have made to the story about Clark's grief. Like I said, in both these kind of stories Lois doesn't matter and she starts out alive and ends up killed.

So, people, if any of you are going to write such a story, please warn me not to read it. Because if you don't, I'm going to post a challenge for you. The challenge will go like this: Try to write a story which naturally invites us to identify with Lois, care about Lois and wish Lois well. Are you Lois-killers capable of doing that?

Edit: So, don't I hate Clark deathfics? Well, it seems to me that while the Lois deathfics invite us to grieve for Clark, the Clark deathfics also invite us to grieve for Clark. The Clark deathfics generally make us feel that Clark was important while he was alive, whereas the Lois deathfics don't necessarily care much about Lois. That's why I don't feel that the Clark deathfics hurt and belittle Clark the way the Lois deathfics hurt and belittle Lois.

Ann

Well, I wrote a story last year in which Lois was killed. A Twist of Fates. I don't think that I come across, as a writer, as someone who sees Lois merely as a cipher. But then, what do I know? Maybe you should tell me: do I treat Lois with disrespect in my writing? Do I not identify with her? Do I treat her as a mere appendage?

I respect your views on deathfic, Ann, and your wish to avoid it at all costs. But I don't think that being disrespectful to authors who have written fic in which a major character dies is appropriate or fair.


Wendy

Actually, Wendy, I love A Twist of Fates! You can't possibly think that that story is disrespectful of Lois, can you? And it's not as if the ending of it would really make us feel depressed? I mean, honestly!!!

The way I see it, A Twist of Fates isn't a deathfic. And it's a totally great Lois story! I just love it.

And as I've already said, I don't think deathfics have to be avoided at all costs. But as I've also said, if a writer wants to kill Lois just to make us feel sorry for Clark, then I'd like to get something a little stronger than just a WHAM warning about that story.

I think perhaps you asked me if I think you disrespect Lois. Well, I don't recall you ever really killing Lois in any story of yours. Okay, I haven't read them all - there are, after all, over 160 of them in the Archive, but to my knowledge, you've never killed her. Perhaps you've killed her in a Tank-and-Wendy story with a Tank ending? If you have, I will think of it as a joke - not a very funny joke, but a joke nonetheless. Perhaps you've made Lois sacrifice her own life in order to save somebody else in one of your stories? If you have, I'll never truly like that story, because it will depress me, but I will certainly respect it. Perhaps you've written a story where Lois dies of old age? That would be okay with me, too.

It is certainly possible to treat a character disrespectfully without killing him or her. But as far as I can remember, you've never tortured Lois just to make us cry for Clark, for example. And with the possible exception of Without Consent, I don't think you have made Lois suffer too horribly in any story - and I have no principal objections to Without Consent, partly because that story is about the suffering of Lois and Clark. Besides, I really think it is all right to write a story where Lois is suffering quite badly, as long as you are not treating her suffering gleefully or insensitively. And you have never, and I mean never, made me feel that Lois's life and feelings aren't important to you. So where would I find the disrespect?

Edit: Beverly, in case you are reading this, please understand that I have no objection to the idea of starting a story off with the premise that Lois is dead. Whether or not I will dislike such a story depends on what happens later (e.g., I will certainly hate it if Clark finds another love interest, lives happily ever after and forgets Lois).


Ann

Wendy, you had me thinking I hadn't read Twist of Fates there for a second. <g> So I had to check it again. Yep, as I thought, Lois is alive and well at the end of the fic. So not a deathfic, but rather a 'temporary out-of-body' fic, a la Tryst or Out of Time. Who knows, maybe that's what I was writing in the character Jeff in Yesterday Upon the Stairs?

opinion warning again.

I didn't get that sense of disresepct at all from what Ann had written, but rather a sense of concern about those stories which trivialize Lois Lane. I guess we filter people's comments through our own particular prisms.

On the subject of warnings, it's all a bit circular. Some writers don't want to give away their endings, but in order to maintain their sense of 'artistic prerogative' (sorry for that very pompous term but nothing else is coming to mind) they have to be willing to disrespect the feelings of some of their readers. Some readers, in order to protect their own feelings, have to to ask that the writers resepct those feelings as more important than their own individual 'artistic perogative'.

c. (who is trying very hard and failing)

I read that story and had no problem with it, Wendy. More than that, actually. I enjoyed it. But it wasn't a deathfic because it didn't end with L&C separated by death. Similarly, for example, if Catherine had written her "Betrayal of Justice" so that Clark took Lois's dead body to STAR Labs where Dr. Klein revived her (which is possible from that kind of death even at our current level of medical science), and if Catherine had then explored Lois & Clark's sense of betrayal and decision to leave Superman behind, I would have been cheering and waving flags. It wouldn't have been a deathfic, and she could have spent real time exploring the effect of that betrayal and how L&C ultimately reconciled their sense of betrayal by the justice system with Clark's need to use his powers to help the innocent and helpless.

Maybe that's the difference for me. It's like ML's "Death of a Reporter" (?), in which Lois dies, but is brought back by TPTB because of Clark's desperate need for her. Or even the old "Scent of Magnolias" (?), in which an aged Lois dies before Clark but comes to him every night in a form he can hear and see and touch until he finally dies of old age and joins her, both young again. A deathfic ends with them separated, with the survivor in pain, always knowing what he/she has lost and cannot have again. For me, a deathfic denies the power of love or hope or courage or goodness or faithfulness to triumph over obstacles or overcome evil, and I can't read that. LOL! Maybe because I spent 75 minutes writing my previous post and then changed it four times after I posted it? Having been involved in several flame wars and once, to my shame, instigated one, I have finally learned to read ... re-read for the connotations of my words ... read yet again, picturing the people to whom I am responding and anticipating their reactions ... and then edit until I have removed any heat or finger-pointing. That, more than anything, explains why I don't participate more on the boards. If I responded to more than one or two threads per week, I would have no life at all. (Dang--I'm up to 50 minutes on this one and running out of time before work!)

Well, what we've tried to do on the boards, as you know, Carol, is to encourage a voluntary system of co-operation which, from what I can tell, most authors are happy to go along with. I think it would be unfair to require authors to post warnings which reveal part of their plot, but asking nicely seems to be working fairly well so far. Either in the story header, or by using the WHAM warning thread (where authors can be more specific without worrying about spoiling those readers who don't want to be spoiled), authors are, from what I can see, trying to be helpful to those readers who are genuinely upset by serious WHAMs.

Ann - and others - I used A Twist of Fates (admittedly, somewhat disingenuously) as an example because I wanted to make a general point, but it was easier to make in relation to myself. Yes, ATOF was not a deathfic in the strict sense, because Lois lives. But the point I wanted to make was that to suggest that anyone who does kill Lois in a story doesn't respect the character is unfair, to say the least, and could be considered offensive.

We all love the characters in our own way. It could be argued that, by giving Lois 24 hours to live and putting her through sheer torture, I want her to suffer and therefore can't have any respect for her as a character. I used my story as an example to make the point that it is not the case that anyone who kills a character in a story does not love the character, does not respect the character or sees the character as disposable. As with any other choice in fanfiction, it's all a matter of individual preference, and it's not fair to assign one person's interpretation onto another writer's choice.


Wendy

I've been working on a post for over an hour - like Sheila, I edit and re-edit over and over again - and see that some of what I was going to say has been covered by those who have posted while I was working on the bloomin' thing.

I have no aversion to deathfic, although I don't actively go out of my way looking for it. I can understand and do respect the intense and visceral reactions that people can feel for deathfic, even when I don't have those reactions myself.

If the death in the story seems, to me, to only be serving the plot purpose of having Clark or Lois grieving needlessly, then I will be disappointed by it, and will make a point of not rereading the story.

Has that happened in this fandom? Probably, but hardly often, unless there are a lot more deathfics out there than I am aware of. I've been reading L&C fic for 5 years now, but I still haven't worked my way through every story on the Archive, so there could be others out there that I haven't yet run across.

Ann wrote:
As I said, I may have missed these, but off the top of my head I can't think of one story where Lois - in life OR in death - was trivialized and deemed unimportant. I don't want a public - or private - list of the stories that you think fit this category, Ann, but how many are we talking about here? 2, 5, 20?

I think the "wham" thread that is stickied to the top of the fanfic forum is a good device for authors to use. Perhaps we could add a subject "for new authors" or something like that in the FAQs. It could point out the wham thread and list any other information that a new author could find useful when posting their first story here. Obviously not everyone will read it, but if it catches at least one person's eye and helps avoid a problem, it would be worth it.

Now I'm not criticizing Catherine for not posting in that thread. And she did use both a wham warning and a permanent "broken-toys" warning at the top of her story. I'm simply saying that perhaps she wasn't aware of the thread's existence or significance, where she could, if she had wanted, have given a more specific warning that Lois would die and the story would not end happily.

Kathy

Oops, Wendy, that's not at all what I meant by "circular" - what I was trying to suggest was that the needs of some readers and the needs of some writers blurr into each other and overlap and so they becomes part of a circle, in which it's difficult to tell where the reader's needs start/end and where the writer's needs start /end.

Does that make any sense?

If I go back over the years, I can think of several off the top of my head which did do just that. Now that's my own interpretaion of how those fics portrayed the character and may or may not be what the author wished to do, in fact, nor will it necessarily be how other readers interpret that same portrayal. I can think of a couple fics which did the same for Clark, too, btw.

c

I'm sorry, Wendy, but I did say in my previous post that I *don't* think that anyone who kills Lois is automatically disrespectful of her. I gave three examples of how a writer could kill Lois without being disrespectful. I certainly admit that there are also other ways to kill Lois and still show her respect.

But I'm going to keep insisting that the idea of killing Lois just to make us feel sorry for Clark *is* disrespectful. People, yesterday I read once again in a Swedish newspaper that 100-200 million women have been killed in what The Economist calls "gendercide". Okay. Does that mean that because 200 million women have been killed, our proper response should be to feel really, really sorry for 200 million men? Perhaps we should write a few fics describing the actual blow-by-blow killings of some of those women, so we can really cry for all those bereaved and lonely men out there?

Ann

...Death is not romantic...
...You're young and naive, so...
...Using and belittling Lois...

These are the three main things that struck me as I read. The first two are the ones that dug under my skin the most.

Yes, I understand that death is not romantic. Death is brutal and horrible, like a leg being cut off, and if you're unlucky enough you get to watch helplessly as it rots off and there's nothing you can do to stop it. So no, death in itself is not romantic. Perhaps then I see the way people survive romantic. No, not in the gushy mushy way, but the way that hearts DO seem to heal afterwards, how ever though they are nearly destroyed by the death of a loved one they someohow manage to get up in the morning. And even though the pain never fully leaves a person, eventually there's a day where you wake up and can go a few hours before you think about it.

And I may be young, but I'm not all that Naive. While I was never in any immediate danger with the exception of a couple mortar rounds, I WAS in a warzone for nine months. I'm one of the lucky ones who never fired her weapon at a living target, but I know people who have. I know the toll it takes on them, I've seen the piece of themselves they lost when they had to take another human's life, even though it had been the enemy. I've heard explosions on nearly a daily basis, each time wondering if it hit one of my own, or civillians. So, while I haven't experienced death, I've seen what it does.

And, truthfully, though I haven't experienced death I AM (to use my above analogy) watching helplessly as my leg rots off. I have been for several months now. My father, who was diagnosed with level FOUR metastatic Melenoma not six months ago, is on what are perhaps his last weeks. I went home this past weekend and saw with my own eyes what death does. He's not dead yet, but he's not the man he was before. And while the fact that he's dying is in no way romantic whatsoever, I think that the fact that his beloved wife (my beloved stepmother) gave up everything - she was working AND going to school - to make his last moments on earth as peaceful and as comfortable as she can, yes I find that to be one of the most romantic things on this earth. When I talk about romance here, I'm not meaning wining and dining, I mean the beauty of the love they share. And when I see them together still, I see a love that anyone of us would kill to have. And they're losing that, and talking to my stepmom she said she wouldn't give back a single day of the five years they spent together, even knowing the heartache she's going through and will go through. I've seen a man watch his older brother, a mother and father watching their son, heck I'm watching my own FATHER die.

And I apologize for the rant, but to suggest that I'm too naive to know what death does to people is patronizing and if I may be blunt a little insulting.

*deep breath, big grin*

Sorry. Anyway. I am in no way saying that those of you who prefer not to read deathfic shouldn't feel that way. There are subjects I myself hate to read, and to have someone tell me I'm WRONG for not liking it would grate my nerves to no end. And I also realize that most of this wouldn't have happened had I written 'Deathfic' somewhere in the beginning. I've learned, and from now on the deathfic warning would probably take up half the frickin page.

And now, onto my having been able to bring Lois back. Yes, its true. There are ways in the LnC universe that Lois may have been brought back. Who knows, they could be living somewhere isolated where people never even heard of Lois and Clark, happily feeding eachother pineapple bits. I didn't write anything about their whereabouts afterward. Just about Jimmy's reaction.

But really though, wouldn't bringing her back lessen things? Kind of cheapen the whole thing as well? While it would work in several cases, as it did in the story Wendy mentioned above, it doesn't work on all. Would Romeo and Juliet (a play I don't like) have been as impactful had they found a miracle cure at the end? Not that I compare myself to shakespeare or anything.

Anyway, that's my past due long winded response to this thread.

And I think that even after my dad passes I'd still read deathfic, still write it even. But that's just me, really.

And another thing: I personally don't feel that what I wrote was disrespectful or lowered Lois in anyway. No, it wasn't JUST to show Clark's pain although we did see that.

And no Ann, I wouldn't mourn for the 200 men. I would feel for the families of the women who died, because there ARE people out there that had loved them. But really... Gendercide? I would be more enraged that something like that even happened. And why bring up just the women who died? Why not mention the countless thousands who die every day? Why NOT mourn for the families who lost their loved ones as WELL as those who lost their lives? Is that disrespectful to the people who DID die? Am I supposed to mourn JUST the loss of my father, and not the heartache left behind? So while you insist that my handling of BoJ was disrespectful to Lois, please allow me to maintain that it was NOT. I was as true to her character as I could be, and to me that IS respect.

And now I really must end this because its getting to be longer than most fic I write... That and I'm hungry and lunch will be over soon.

-CB