Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Related Time to reorganise the Archive?

Hey, guys

I've been thinking about this for a long time now and I've been wondering if the time has come to radically alter the way we collect stories for the Fanfic Archive

Traditionally, as most of you will know, most of the authors who post their stories here on the mbs, once they are sure they have a finished version, submit them for uploading to the Archive.

This year has seen the quietest time for the submissions that I can recall since I took over as EIC of the Archive. There have always been troughs and rush periods, of course, but this is the first time I've seen submissions being more often than not slow to come in and GEs twiddling their thumbs for months at a time.

Most of the year has been spent thoroughly convinced that next week will see no upload (although it's curiously always at this point that some author thinks to send in a story and we get a small flurry of two or three. How you guys know when to do that to keep us ticking over baffles me. Some kind of author ESP maybe. )

I think that part of the reason for this is that there has been a steady erosion over the years of the traditional link between the mbs and the Archive. Many new authors, I feel, come in and join the mbs and don't even know the Archive exists. And trying to ensure that everyone knows it's out there is difficult. Posts requesting submissions generally only spark off receipt of a couple of stories before the status quo settles back in. And such posts are quickly lost among newer posts.

There is of course a stickied thread with instructions on how to submit your story to the Archive, but who reads the stickied threads when joining a new mbs? I know I don't. Who has the time for that? So I'm sure that's less read than it is overlooked.

So, is it time to drastically reorganise the way we do things?

Many other fandoms, for example, work on an automatic system of collecting stories for their Archive, where the author has to actively opt out of having it uploaded rather than the onus being on them to volunteer their story.

Now, I've never liked this option, I have to say, as I think it tramples on an author's right to say where their story is posted. And we in this fandom have a specific problem with implementing something like that because, unlike those other fandoms, we insist on editing submissions before they are uploaded to the website. And taking an author's story and editing it, essentially without their permission, seems to me to be taking a step much further than just taking it and uploading it.

So I don't think that option works for us, but I toss it out anyway for debate.

The only other possible solution I've thought of is perhaps I should start posting an official EIC post in the comments folder of any new story posted here on the mbs. A "congratulations on posting your story. Do remember to send it along to the Archive when you're through' kind of thing.

Or I could email authors directly and solicit submissions from them.

In the past, I've always avoided doing either of these because I felt it was intrusive. If an author wanted their story on the Archive, they'd submit it. They didn't need me nagging them to do it.

But if we've gotten to the point where it's not choice that's leading to a dwindling of submissions but ignorance that the Archive is out there and available, maybe it's time to reassess that one. And to add to that, I've lost count of the number of times an author has mailed me with a story saying, "I found this on my hd. No idea why I haven't sent it in yet! Thought I had." so obviously one of those nagging emails might not go awry as a reminder now and then.

Anyway, I was going to do a poll, but I don't really have any solutions to offer, other than the vague ramblings above, and I'm not sure those are any help <G>. So I decided just to post the problem here instead and throw it open for debate and suggestions.

Maybe you don't even feel there's a problem that needs solving. If submissions are dwindling so be it, if the Archive has stories to upload fine, if it doesn't one week, that's fine too. And if that's the majority opinion, that's okay. I personally think it would be a shame. I don't think there's been a week on the Archive without an upload since its inception. I'd be kind of sad to see that tradition broken. And we're getting closer to it every week.

Discuss!

LabRat
Editor-in-Chief
The Lois and Clark Fanfic Archive

If you have the time to do it, I would say an official EIC post on the final comment folder of each story would be great. It's a nice reminder and for those new people who aren't aware of the archive, it's letting them know about another place to potentially get feedback.

I'd post in the final comment folders only, but that's only my own humble opinion.

Irene

Answering a question with another question, is there any way of ascertaining how many stories are written which don't make it to the Archive? By which I mean, how big a problem are we looking at? Is there a dwindling numbers of stories being written, which then reflects on the submissions to the Archive, or is it that people don't, for whatever reason, submit their finished stories?

I guess someone with nothing to do for a few days could go through the fanfic MBs for an entire year and count the number of completed stories posted. Any volunteers? <g> I know there are a few stories which aren't posted on the MBs (many of ML Thomson's stories come to mind, for example) but they wouldn't scew the results too badly, I wouldn't have thought.

Personally, I wouldn't object to the automatic option, but I also think it would be a great shame to lose the fandom's editing process. It makes us different (and better, dare I say?) to all the others and ensures that PG fic remain clear of inappropriate language.

Editing without the author's permission is a definite non-starter. What you *could* do is send an email to authors whose stories had been picked up by the automatic process offering them the chance to stop their story entering the Archive process (ie being edited, etc). If you don't receive a response from the author within a pre-defined time-frame, or you receive a negative response, the story doesn't go on the Archive.

Yvonne

Well, as someone who has taken the year off from writing fanfiction I did try and do my part by sending most of the old stories I had left on my hard drive in so that I would still be represented this year.

Like others I'm not sure if its a problem of writers not sending there stories in, or there is just fewer stories being posted. It does seem that there has been fewer ongoing stories being concurrently posted in recent months.

Personally, I don't think there needs to be a radical change in the way things are done. I think an occasional reminder thread like this one should be enough. If Labby posts such a reminder every few months I think those who are posting their stories on the mbs will get the message.

Tank (who wishes to point out that having his stories on the archives allowed him to retrieve most of his stories when a hard drive crash wiped out his entire cache of fanfiction)

Actually, it's much easier to calculate than that, Yvonne. Quoting for speed as at the moment I'm supposed to be cooking dinner for my soon to be home from work hubby and not here on the pc from an email from the Index Crew:

So if anyone has time to do that, before I do...


Tried that, Tank, but it's very much a short-term solution. It doesn't work over the long-term to solve the underlying problem.

All that happens when I post such a reminder is that I get a tiny flurry of email - say three new submissions, tops. Then silence again.

What I'm looking for now is a more long-term solution that solves the problem once and for all. Posts such as these, as I've done in the past, just work out as a temporary bandaid, unfortunately.

LabRat

Is only the number of uploads to the archive that are decreasing or thenumber of stories posted as weel? i mean, less stories posted might mean there are less uploads.

Since I have saved just about every story I've read and gone back and reread a number of them I must say that I prefer to download to my personal archive from the ARCHIVE. The file sizes are much smaller than me have to take each chapter from here and copy it into Word to make one file and save it. Also I like the descriptions of each story.

Since I'm not a writter I guess I should express and opinion but I'm going to anyway. I agree that probably many don't read the threads. Also it is easy to forget if you've done something or not. So I would think that a nicely worded email asking an author to submit their finished story to the Archive would be appropriate. You could also mention as Tank did that it saves their work in case they have a system crash. Although to quote Clark Kent, "Don't you back-up to floppy disks." Or in this day and age CD.

Again my vote is email or at the least the comments folder.

I think it may well be a reduced number of stories being written. A fair number of authors seem to have moved on to other fandoms, or at least to be splitting their attention between fandoms. And the list of new authors coming into the fandom is, I believe, getting smaller.

If that's the case, then maybe not updating every week is the way to go. It wouldn't be the first time. If you go by date, you can see that, back in the early days, updates were rather spotty. Sept '96, for example, had only 4 stories uploaded for the entire month, and there was no update between October 15 and November 11 of that year, either. February of '97 saw three stories in a single update, and no more.

Of course, that predates the GE system, and you can also see that there were times when huge batch uploads were followed by dry spells. April '97 being a good example. Seven stories on the first, three more on the fifth, and then nothing until a huge upload at the beginning of May.

Anyway... Reminding authors isn't a bad idea. I don't like the automatic idea, though. I do try to send in even throwaway fics (usually), but some need more work and editing before they're archive-worthy. I prefer being in control of what gets sent in, and to get it polished and ready myself.

(Note, BTW, that with the fundraiser coming up, there are a good number of stories currently being written which won't be publically posted for over a year... I know I'm working on one. It's turning fairly long by my standards, too. It's already nearly halfway to the mid-length barrier! So, expect something of a drought for the next couple months. It's only temporary and not really what you're talking about, but my point is that things will artificially look worse than they are for a while.)

Oh... poll thought. How about one to find out about FoLCs' awareness of the archive?

Do you archive your stories?
1. Of course!
2. Usually...
3. No, I don't think my stories aren't good enough for that.
4. No, your GEs frighten me with their helpfulness and gramatical knowledge.
5. Archive? What's that?
6. No, I don't write.
7. Other

Or something like that. Might be interesting to find out how much of a problem non-awareness really is, and maybe see if there are other reasons people aren't submitting.

I guess what I'm saying is that we should find out first what's causing the decline of submissions. If people not knowing about the archive really is a significant contributor, then sure, post an invitation/reminder in the comments thread for the last part. It'd help motivate people and raise awareness, if you're willing to put in the time. If the major reason, though, is that there just aren't as many stories being written these days (the show has been off the air for almost a decade...), then maybe it's time to consider updating every other week, or even monthly.

Paul

Okay... purely unscientific counting here..

TOC Folder:
-- 35 posts per page
-- 4 pages of posts since Jan 1st (5th page, top post is Dec 30th)
-- Subtract 1 for sticky post
-- Just a round number of about 10 unfinished fics
----------
129 possible fics


Uploaded to the archive in 2005:
January: 25 (includes fics posted on the boards in 2004)
February: 11
March: 11
April: 14
May: 21
June: 12
July: 21
August: 10
September: 1
-------------
Total number uploaded: 126

Subtract the two stories from authors who never (or rarely) post on the boards, plus 5-10 from 2004, we can make it about 116.

Which leaves about 13.

Makes you wonder if we should track those people down.

Ohboy. You know, there's a lot more people who post to the Archives than the Boards than I thought. There's also a few that were written years ago that just got posted this year (Tank).

Counting them up, there are a total of 64 of this year's TOC'd stories that made it to the archive. Out of 139 TOC's.



You know who you are. We're coming for you. Because I'm saving this file. *smirk*

(and now I'm going to do something productive. Like find a life)

Well, chiming in as someone who archives almost all her fics but, this year, has two unarchived stories...

Yes, in the main I believe that all stories should be sent to the Archive. And it's normally immediate for me: finish story, submit it. The two I didn't send this year are stories I consider out of the ordinary. I have personal reasons for not submitting one of them. The other is the tongue-in-cheek story I wrote about CC after the posting of In A Better Place: Revenge of the Muses. After a discussion in the fanfic folder, I decided that I would submit it to the Archive, with an explanation, but only after IABP had been uploaded.

Which leads to a question... CC, why isn't IABP on the Archive yet???

The other story, which I said hasn't been submitted for personal reasons, is Saying Goodbye - given the circumstances in which that was written, I didn't feel comfortable submitting it.

Over the years, the only other stories I can remember not submitting were cameo fics or other silly fics written in response to challenges - there was the Irish one for Sara a few years ago, a haircut story, several plot untwists and other similar types of story. It never occurred to me that those were suitable for the Archive or that anyone would be interested in them.

Anyway, yes, it seems that there are a number of stories so far this year which need to be submitted... time to chase up the authors!


Wendy

"Although to quote Clark Kent, "Don't you back-up to floppy disks." Or in this day and age CD."

This is not the time to discuss your compulsive behavior Kmar.

But actually, my old computer didn't have the capability of burning a back-up CD, and didn't have any floppy drives. In order to create back-ups I would have had to add an external unit of some kind, which I didn't have. So... I lost everything... BUT thanks to the archives I regained all the stories that were posted there and only lost a few stories that I hadn't sent.

Tank (who is pretty sure he now has the capability to burn back-up CDs but isn't sure how to do it... and hasn't really written anything anyway)

We have the e-mail each week of completed stories. Could an e-mail be sent to these people to now archive their stories?

I archive all my stories. Even the silly challenge responses. (I once had one removed, but it was a really silly thing so the Archive is better off without it )

Last month, I finished posting a long fic, The Walls Between Us. I haven't gotten to the process of getting it ready for the Archive yet, though, because I'm not very satisfied with it. I want to tweak some things here and there and I'm also considering deleting some things altogether, but this is a very time-consuming task I wasn't in the mood for lately.

Automatic archiving doesn't sound like a good idea to me either. I do believe that all stories should be submitted to the Archive, but at least give the writer some time to process them. They might have come across a major plothole that needs fixing, or something in equal need of editing.

Will be following this thread.
See ya,
AnnaBtG.

Yes I'm kind of compulsive about backing up my data files but that is because I once had a crash and lost all of them. Wasn't picking on you I had just watched that particular episode before I read this thread.

If you have a newer computer with a CD burner if you pop a CD into the machine it should start up the burning program by itself. Just be sure to close all other programs first. Then it will prompt you through the procedure.

Wow! So only roughly half the completed stories posted here make it to the archive? Houston, we have a problem...

Yvonne

Karen, just to be clear - I'm assuming that all of that 139 TOC'd stories represent completed stories? Not just stories that authors began posting and perhaps never completed?

LabRat

Okay, I don't have time to do the whole thing, but I just went to the fic index and did the ABC title page (all stories begun on these boards since their inception with titles beginning with A, B, or C).

I did it by counting up the stories on my screen, jotting down the numbers, scrolling down, and counting the next page. My findings, page by page, with totals:

Complete Stories:
9 + 14 + 10 + 10 + 12 + 8 + 11 + 9 + 12 + 5 = 100

Complete stories not yet archived:
3 + 05 + 02 + 02 + 04 + 4 + 02 + 1 + 04 + 2 = 29

So, for the ABCs, about 1 completed story in 3 has yet to be archived. Not only does that hold up in total, but the ratio pretty much holds true page by page. 3/9, 5/14, 2/10, 4/12... all pretty close to 1/3. There are some exceptions (4/8, 1/9...) but it still averages out neatly.

I may do DEF tonight, or someone else is welcome to do the next batch. Or maybe this is a reasonable sample. It's a good number of stories, and a cross-section of authors. Probably, if you took out the incomplete stories from Karen's count, you'd end up with a similar number.

Paul

no, 139 is total TOC's. My computer was running too slow to figure out which ones were complete. Probably 10-20 are not complete out of the 139.

I'm not sure there is a problem.

Writers of longer stories may hold back for some time as they re-edit their stories, taking into account comments received during the posting process on the mbs as well as their own second thoughts on writing style, plot, characterization, etc. I know that I did that. Also, it takes time for a GE to edit a story, and, speaking from my own experience, my GE's critique definitely improved my stories. (hi, Jeanne:) ) So that a story is not yet on the archive doesn't mean it won't be there.

Also, I'm wondering if the minimal feedback that many of us recieve once we do post to the archive makes the effort of posting not seem all that worthwhile.

Finally, I do believe that the decision to post to the archive is very much an individual writer's decision, and that we, as a group, must respect the decision of a writer to delay or hold back a story. For us, as a group, to interfer with that private decision, seems, to me, a tad... well... disrespectful.

That's not to say, though, that i don't look forward to seeing some stories ultimately posted on the archive

c