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#147816 06/21/05 01:14 PM
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LabRat Offline OP
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Just read this on the BBC news website. Found all the differing povs fascinating, but not sure I agree with losing it. Kind of fond of it really. <g>

Quote
According to the laws of language we need them, but are apostrophes really necessary? Not according to those fighting the punctuation purists.

Any advocate of a punctuation cull risks offending a lot of people.

More than 2.5m people have read Lynne Truss's bestseller Eats, Shoots and Leaves, which attacks infringements of the rules of written English language.

But linguist Kate Burridge says punctuation could do with being cut down and the rules of language reviewed.

Her new book Weeds in the Garden of Words considers how the "glorious garden" of the English language has evolved. Just as one weed is another gardener's flower, she says, the same goes for words and their usage in English - sometimes we just haven't realised their virtues.

Burridge's views on punctuation counter those of self-confessed punctuation pedant Truss.

Take the possessive apostrophe, described by Truss as "our long-suffering little friend". It is often surplus to requirements, according to Burridge.

When she suggested on Australian radio that the possessive apostrophe be dropped, she received a barrage of criticism.

"I could not have predicted the outcry," she says. "Public flogging would have been too light a punishment. That was the first time I realised people were so passionate about it."

Once after addressing an audience, a man told her how many times she had said "sort of" and concluded her use of it meant she didn't know what she was talking about.

He represents the views of what she calls the "sticklers", who fiercely oppose her views on language.

"Rules are important, but they are not all good," she says. "People can get too worried about these things. The letters I got when I suggested dropping the possessive apostrophe were quite hostile."

The normal apostrophe is useful but not the possessive, she says. Its supporters say it avoids ambiguity in meaning, (like sisters' books / sister's books), but Burridge thinks context makes it redundant.

The hyphen is also surplus to requirements in many cases, she says, because even the editors of the Concise Oxford English Dictionary admitted they're not sure of its proper usage.

Burridge argues that dictionaries need to acknowledge new words and usages of grammar and punctuation to stay relevant. She is currently backing a campaign to get the "yeah-but-no-but" catchphrase of Little Britain character Vicky Pollard entered into the Collins English Dictionary.

Modern technology is leading the way in streamlining language. The use of words and punctuation in e-mails, texts and internet chatrooms is a type of speech written down and has loosened the straitjacket effect writing had on language, says Burridge.

But the distinction between speech and writing is something that should be kept, argue some.

"Punctuation is a way of showing respect to language," says linguist Tom Daydon.

"We have to learn the distinction between speech and writing because our audience is different with each. When we talk to people they can ask if they don't understand something but they can't if we write a letter to them, so rules are needed."

But the emphasis should be on clarity, rather than rules, argues Burridge and she is not alone. Roy Corden, professor of language and literacy at Nottingham Trent University, says rules often make things more confusing.

"Take the apostrophe, there is so much confusion over how to use it you have to wonder if it has become dysfunctional," he says.

"The fundamentals of grammar will always be needed but people tend to act as if all the rules have been handed down from on high and cannot be altered. The problem with that is language is always changing, the internet and mobile phones have had a dramatic impact on it.

"I think it comes down to a question of clarity, do the rules make language any clearer? If not we need to ask if they are still of use."

But not all change is good. Burridge is quick to criticise "evil weed" words, such as dishonest euphemisms that try to sound neutral when really they are negative, such as friendly fire and downsize.

Despite her approach, she does not think punctuation will die out because it provides the "props" of writing.

And as the success of Truss's bestseller shows for every person who wants the rules of language reviewed, there is another who feels passionately towards preserving them.

But Truss herself believes her campaign to retain the rules of the written word will fail.

"It's quite depressing to be standing up for a system of marks that's dying," she says. "There's no point doing it because it will die."

Punctuation clarifies complex sentences and without it, nuances would be lost, she says.

And the possessive apostrophe?

Despite the confusion among many, it's there to help and clarify, says Truss. Dropping it would be "capitulating to ignorance".
Discuss? laugh

LabRat smile



Athos: If you'd told us what you were doing, we might have been able to plan this properly.
Aramis: Yes, sorry.
Athos: No, no, by all means, let's keep things suicidal.


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My reaction to the article reminds me of the time I was checking out a book at the library, and my library card stirred up an issue. The guy behind the desk radioed to his supervisor in his most serious voice, "We have an issue." And I stood there saying to myself, okay, world hunger is an issue. The Challenger explosion? That was an issue. But my *library* card?! Where in the world am I going with this? you might ask. Well, I'd die. I'd have an absolute conniption if we dropped the possessive apostrophe. I now completely understand the librarian behind the desk who called my library card "an issue." Dropping the possessive apostrophe? Definitely an issue for me.


Jen


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Someone on another forum recently declared that the subjunctive mood would die soon, and no one would care. I declared that he was wrong, I would care! He clarified that by "soon" he meant likely sometime after I was dead . . . wink

I think the possessive apostrophe is even more needed than the subjunctive!

Although . . . if it meant that people would STOP PLURALIZING with apostrophes (the infamous "grocer's apostrophe"), I might go along with it.


Do you know the most surprising thing about divorce? It doesn't actually kill you, like a bullet to the heart or a head-on car wreck. It should. When someone you've promised to cherish till death do you part says, "I never loved you," it should kill you instantly.

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Hack from Nowheresville
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English as a garden, ohhh I like that analogy.

I'd always thought about English as a wall, with the bricks as words and the mortor as grammar.

You can do it any old way with slapdash mortor and random bricks, and quite possibly the wall will stay up.
[Linked Image]
(This is my kind of English <g>)

In fact you can make a dry stone wall, and it can still stand up.
[Linked Image]

But you can make a beautifully finished wall with good bricks and good mortor, with good pointing, and the wall could last for ever.
[Linked Image]
(This wall is about 2000 years old, by the way...)

But I like the idea of a garden, gardens are all different.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

And in a garden, weeds are just flowers in the wrong place.

Helga


Knowledge is knowing that tomatoes are a fruit.

Intelligence is not putting them in a fruit salad.
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LabRat Offline OP
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Helga that's...inspired. Like a poem. With pictures. goofy

LabRat smile (trying hard to lose the image in her head of Jen being surrounded by armed guards as security shutters slam into place and alarms wail... )



Athos: If you'd told us what you were doing, we might have been able to plan this properly.
Aramis: Yes, sorry.
Athos: No, no, by all means, let's keep things suicidal.


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Well, when all was said and done...I just needed a new card because they old one stopped working when they would swipe it...

Jen
look for me on the next edition of Library Fraud


"Meg...who let you back in the house?" -Family Guy
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LabRat Offline OP
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You know...that was my first thought. Well, my second thought after the armed guards, which didn't seem likely.

Technology. If I had a pound for every time technology was at the heart of a library ticket error...

LabRat smile



Athos: If you'd told us what you were doing, we might have been able to plan this properly.
Aramis: Yes, sorry.
Athos: No, no, by all means, let's keep things suicidal.


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Languages change over time, and usually to make things simpler instead of more complicated. So I wouldn't be surprised if apostrophes go away in time. I just hope it isn't too soon.


I believe there's a hero in all of us that keeps us honest, gives us strength, makes us noble, and finally allows us to die with pride, even though sometimes we have to be steady and give up the thing we want the most. Even our dreams. -- Aunt May, Spider-Man 2

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