Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Related Kerth Nominating Questions

Have just checked through the category descritpions and also the suggestions about nominating.

1. The suggestion is that we can nominate up to 8 stories per category. Given the smaller number of stories this year, am wondering if the K-Com would suggest we stick with 5 as a max?

2. Are the criteria in the categories on Kerths website what we are to go by? -- have noticed, in catching up, in the K quizzes that a couple of stories that don't fit a particualar catgory descriptors have got included either in that quiz or the recommnedations.

Thanks in advance for answering this (how' s that for optimism:) ) am about to leave town again and so wanted to know before I go.

c

I'm not K-Com but just wanted to comment on Carol's second question: sometimes the question of what stories do or don't fit a category is kind of subjective. For example, the winner in a particular category one year seemed to me not to be at all suited to that category; yet enough people thought it was to get it on the shortlist and vote it into first place. So, you know, my opinion was kind of outvoted there.

I suspect the best bet there is to nominate what you think fits the categories, and then it's up to K-Com to deal with the resulting... whatever.


Wendy

Thanks, Wendy, for replying. Sorry, should have been more specific. I know there's always some subjectivity involved in nominating but this category seems a clear-cut one. The category is "Best Relationship"; here's the website descritpion:

So I would assume any story that doesn't "focus on L & C's relationship" would not be eligible in this cat? Just wanted to clarify.

c.

Yeah, that's about it, Carol But like Wendy says, we try to go with the majority of FOLCs on which stories go where, so there's definitely wiggle-room.

PJ

LOL, Pam - that's not an answer<vbg> Do see the wiggle-room potential is some categories but perhaps not in Best Relationship as described on the website. So still wondering...

oh, btw, what about the number of nominations per cat?

c

Hmm... I see what you mean, Carol. I included Chris Carr's A Match Made in Chicago in the Relationship quiz, and that's actually about Lucy and Dan. That one slipped through, I'm afraid. Shame, because as relationship stories go it's a lovely one.


Wendy (who trusts K-Com to ensure that her nominations, if equally sloppy, translate to sensible arrangements on the ballot )

My assumption has been that the Drama category is intended for stories with strong A plots, and the Relationship category for strong B plots. So I'd be inclined to put A Match Made in Chicago into Relationship for that reason, even though it's not about Lois and Clark themselves. Similarly with stories about relationships with parents or early girl/boyfriends or children, now that the Early Years/Superfutures category is gone.

Just my 2p
Mere

Looks like we really do need a K-Com clarification on "Relationship" then.

c

Just saw this today ... I'm going to send the link to Erin to get her up to speed and we'll discuss it. I have a feeling I know how Erin will answer both of your questions, Carol, but I want to check with her first, especially on the nomination numbers.

Kathy

Speaking as someone who thinks that most of her stories are dramas but who hates and avoids A plots like the plague, I've always disputed this. <g>

Here's the dictionary definition (from Chambers), leaving out the definitions pertinent to the stage: a series of absorbing, exciting, tense or tragic, etc events

I reckon a story can be all of those things without having a strong A plot. It's more likely that the story will have a balance of A and B plots. The tensions brought about by facing a difficult 'action' situation whilst also dealing with challenging relationship issues are what, IMO, makes a good drama. Overdone, of course, it slips into melodrama <g>.

Yvonne

Yes, that's the dictionary definition. The Kerth category definition, though, contains the term "A-plot" - granted, there's weasel room in the "not always".

If tense relationship stories counted as Drama, there wouldn't be any need for a Relationship category. IMHO, of course.

Mere

P.S. Plenty of A-plot in Purity and Misery, at least!

OK, subject discussed, and answers agreed upon.

1) The nomination form will contain 8 slots per category, as it did last year. That doesn't mean that you have to fill every slot -- we actually expect most people won't. But we see no reason to limit people to 5 noms/category, even with the lower number of eligible stories. Tha's why we trimmed the category list.

2) As for the descriptions, obviously this is a case where we can't anticipate every plotline. So we say, please use your own judgement. If you want to nominate a story about Lucy and Dan (or Martha and Jonathan, or Perry and Alice, or ...) in the Relationship category, go for it! I wouldn't take the category description as 100% firm in this case, as it's one we couldn't really anticipate.

Hope that helps!

Kathy
Kerth Committee Member

Yvonne, I really hate to be the one to break this to you ( ) . . . but just because an A-plot is tightly intertwined with the B-plot does not mean it isn't there.

Thanks, Kathy for your reply. It was Chris's story I was thinking of - a wonderful (and clever) piece and I did want to include it in my nominations in that category.

Sad though that there's no category just for a Lois and Clark relationship fic.

c.

Yeah, Rivka. :rolleyes: I guess it's that word 'strong' that scares me - don't think I've ever written a strong A plot in my entire life .

I've just checked the Kerth definition, and actually, it doesn't say anything about strong A plots, so I'm happy :

Yvonne

Uh . . . That sure sounds like "strong A-plot" to me.

And, Yvonne, so do your stories. I think this may be one of those self-assessment blindness things.

Yeah, I think I'm with Yvonne on this one. I'm not sure what the inclusion or absence of an A-plot has to do with a story being considered a Drama.

IMHO, if a story was written in which Lois contracted a terminal disease and Clark was taking care of her while Bernie Klein struggled (off stage) to find a cure, I'd consider this both a Drama and a Relationship story. As far as I can see, it doesn't have an A-plot, especially if the cure-finding is kept off scene. But it would be what I would consider a highly dramatic premise.

I suppose it comes down to how we define A-plot. It was always my understanding that in this fandom, A-plot was defined as any action external to the central relationship on which the story hangs. Things involving criminals, the Daily Planet, investigations, etc. Some sort of action or activity that is not centered on the interaction between two characters (usually Lois and Clark). The A-plot might drive interaction, but it does not evolve from it, at least not initially. A story doesn't have to include an A-plot or it could be almost 100% A-plot.

Again IMHO, it's not the inclusion of A-plot that makes something a drama. You could have an A-plot (the Prankster breaks out of jail) that can be used to write a very funny story (not a drama) or a very intense, angsty dramatic story. And the reverse is true. You could have a story in which Lois and Clark are sitting in Lois's living room talking, no A-plot whatsoever, and it could be very funny (not a drama) or very intense, angsty and dramatic. Nothing exiting happening per se, but still a drama based on the tone and subject of their conversation.

Same thing applies to the relationship category. It was my understanding that a relationship story simply has to contain a relationship, and it can be a funny story or a dramatic story. Too, it could contain an A-plot or not. As long as it contains a substantial focus on a relationship, it qualifies.

It's not what's in the story, it's the tone of the story that makes it a drama. And it's not the tone of the story that makes it a relationship story but rather the content. At least, that's what I'd interpreted the Drama and Relationship categories to mean. There is significant crossover between the two - they are not mutually exclusive.

I can understand the confusion. I suggest for next year that there be a split in the Drama category - Drama/A-Plot and Drama/Relationship if people feel strongly about there needing to be an A-plot in the story in order for it to be eligible for the Best Dramatic category.

Lynn

Not a bad suggestion, Lynn, just please keep in mind that it will depend mostly on whether there are enough stories with a central a-plot to support splitting the category.

One of the reasons that we tweaked the definition of Drama in the first place (last year) was that there seem to be fewer and fewer stories where the a-plot (the chasing the bad guys thing) is the main driving force of the story. Thus, we chose to open the category up slightly to include the types of stories you describe -- where there is a serious, suspenseful situation, but the threat may not always be from an outside source.

I think most of us lament the fact that fewer people attempt a fully fleshed out a-plot -- I know those of us on the KCom certainly do. And we also would all personally love to reward those writers who take on this difficult task and produce an outstanding story. What it comes down to then, really, is whether the Kerths should be a "leader" or a "follower".

On the KCom, we've always taken the viewpoint that the only "charge" the Kerths have is to represent the stories that have been released in the previous year. That's one reason we sometimes have to make changes to categories kind of late in the game (like we did this year). We have to wait until near the end of each calendar year to figure out what kinds of stories have been released, in what numbers, and determine what themes have been the most prevelent.

Others have suggested over the years, however, that the Kerths should be more proactive -- that the KCom should take on the responsibility of encouraging certain types of stories. For example, goes the thinking, if the Kerths were to include categories where there are fewer eligible stories, more people would attempt to write stories to fit in those categories, in hopes of having a better shot at an award.

Those of us on the committee see advantages to this approach, to be certain, but we ultimately think that it would be presumptuous of us, as a committee, to tell the fandom what kinds of stories are "preferable". Instead, we just try our best to keep an eye on trends that are created by the fandom in general, and let the readers and writers decide which stories (or types of stories) are the most popular.

Kathy

I can see the dilemma, Kathy. I can't speak for any other writers, but I've never written a story with the thought of having it fit in a specific Kerth category. I've always just written what story was in my head and then wondered if it would even fit any category. And I honestly don't know if what you are saying would work - encourage people to write a specific story to "go for" a Kerth in that category. It might just work.

You face a tough job, and you guys are doing great!

Lynn

Is it just me, or have there been and increased number of elseworld stories last year? I love them, but there are so many some will have to fit into other categories, like drama, relationship, etc. The one category I miss this year is "Best Series". You have a bunch of contenders there.

Artemis
Edit: I see Best Series was discussed in another thread. I posted this before I read that. My solution as been to break apart the series (plural) and nominate them as individual stories in separate categories so they don't compete against each other. But again the call for drama, relationship, or best supporting character is a very subjective call.
O.K. I've just read the discussion about lumping stories of a series together and I'm a little bit more informed. I'm going to hang with my original plan and see how it flies.

I was thinking of this the other day... in connection with the "Best Original/Supporting Character" -- that's a brand new category this year; we've never had anything close to it, really. And yet, we're overflowing with strong contenders for it. The K-Com didn't have to try to encourage people to write good supporting characters. We just identified the trend (perhaps belatedly ). So, we'll re-assess next year, and see how many stories seem to feature strong bad-guy A-plots. Get writing, people!

PJ

Just my opinion, but I'm in favor of the "follower" category. You've identified the trends in the previous year, which have sprung up spontaneously among the various writers. If the Oscar race is your model, that's what they do. They don't change categories often, but this is the first year Animation is a serious race. It's well known that creative ideas travel in packs in writing and in -belive it or not - science. Why or how this happens is not really understood, but it is well documented. Therefore, "forcing" (although you are really not) the issue seems unnecessary. Who knows, maybe the muses have a union?

Artemis

*ponders*

Ok, the thing is, I agree with this also:

OMG - Artemis! Don't give them ideas! They're uppity enough as it is!

/me slaps her hands over her Muse's eyes...oh, look...chocolate over in the corner of the room there...


LabRat

Let me begin by saying that I have no opinion about what categories we should have for the Kerth’s this year. I trust the Kerth committee to make those decisions.

But there is one thing I would like to say. Like it or not, I do think the Kerth committee is a leader in terms of what stories get written. For example, it would never have occurred to me that such a creature as a ‘series’ even existed if there hadn’t been a Kerth category for it. I would have simply thought an author wrote a story and then, afterwards, decided that they wanted to write a second story which followed from the first. However, knowing that there was such a creature, I turned my mind to trying to write one. And that’s what I did this year for Without A Superman. When I wrote the first word of Without A Superman (Clark Kent’s Quest), I knew that there were going to be three stories which were going to have completely different and distinct A plots and yet were going to have a B plot which ran throughout. To me, each story stands on it’s own and yet none of the stories should be read without the others. But I would never have written that story if the Kerth category of ‘series’ hadn’t given me the idea.

I also find myself reading the discussion every year about whether a Drama should have an A-plot and it always leaves me thinking that people in this fandom don’t particularly like A-plots. Since I’m not a good enough writer to write a story without an A-plot, I must admit that I find that the idea saddens me. It makes me less inclined to write stories because I sort of figure that my stories aren’t what people really want to read anymore.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

Just a couple more points. Another example of how Kerth categories have affected my stories was that one year there were a large number of TOGOM re-writes. Being me, I never noticed the trend. But then the Kerth committee created a category that year specifically for those stories. It got me to thinking, wondering if I could write a TOGOM re-write that was different from all the others. The end result was The Second Stage of Grief. So once again, the Kerth committee’s decision influenced me to write a story. The fact that the category didn't exist in the coming year was irrelevant. The fact that the category had existed at one time was what caused me to think of a new idea for a story.

This year, with the Kerth committee creating a new category for creation of a new character, I find myself wondering if I could... Ah, but that’s a different story .

I have to say that I agree with a lot of what MLT says.

Well, MLT, I have to say that reading your post makes me want to read your stories. I do like A plots, and I appreciate them when I find them.

Your doubts here echo the ones I had when I wrote Extraordinary Man II. Most of the feedback I got was very complimentary about the relationship parts of the story, but few people had anything to say about the A plot. It almost made me wonder why I'd bothered with it!

Oh, and please don't say you are not a good enough writer to write a story without an A plot! I'm sure others would say that they are not good enough writers to write stories with an A plot. It's all a matter of where an author's strengths and preferences lie. Neither one is better or worse than the other; it's simply a reflection of people liking different things and having talents in different areas.

So, please, rest assured, you're not crying in the wilderness here. Or, if you are, we're singing quite the duet!

As for whether the Kerths are leaders or followers in influencing what people write, I have to say that I think they are both and, if anything, there is a kind of circular pattern.

When categories like Best Villain get dropped I think that, yes, this reflects the kinds of stories that have been written in the previous year. But it also -- I think -- sends signals that these kinds of stories aren't being written and are unpopular... and that may influence what people continue to write.

This is one reason why I'm so delighted to see the new Best Original / Supporting Character category this year. It shows that writers were writing stories outside the boundaries of the 2003 Kerth Categories, and I think that speaks volumes for the powers of creativity at work within this community.

I, myself, have often wondered about trying to write for the FoLC 'market'; I see a hunger for and appreciation of long and (often) angsty relationship fics, or pure, unadulterated waffyness (is that a word?). But I don't find it in me to write long relationship stories, be they waffy or angsty. In the end, I write what I feel like writing... and either people like it or they don't (although I hope they will).

Chris (one of FoLCdom's eternal runners-up )

I personally love a good strong A-plot. When mixed well with a B-plot, you have something similar (or exactly) a "lost episode". It's great seeing something similar to what you'd see in one episode, especially if it's longer than what you could fit into 45-ish minutes. So please, don't stop writing them!

I think the influence is a circle of sorts. The writers influence the Kerths, which influence the writers. The Kerths show off trends that may not otherwise be noticable, and provide ideas.

This is so interesting to read, because it shows me that writers come at a story from really different angles.

When I have an idea in my head, I never really think much about whether or not anyone will want to read it or if it fits into what might be "popular" at the moment. Usually, a story that I write is a story that I'd like to read, so my stories reflect *my* personal tastes.

Since A-plots for me (and I'm very much speaking only for myself!) are enjoyable to read only in as much as they involve the LnC relationship, I tend not to write intricate A-plots that are not simply tools to further the B-plot. Kind of like watching an LnC episode - I always skipped over the A-plot stuff unless it showed LnC in some stage of their relationship. For example, in Lucky Leon when Lois and Clark on on stakeout. This is part of the A-plot, but I love to watch it because what it reveals about LnC's advancing relationship. When morning comes and the story switches focus back to the bad guys, I hit the fast-forward button.

But I do know that there are many, many readers out there who love A-plots. Just like there are those who love mysteries or true-crime dramas or espionage stories, etc. Variety is the spice of life.

I guess I'm saying that I would hope writers don't walk away from a story idea they are excited about simply because they think there is no readership for it. Doing that kind of creates a circular situation. People who like to read A-plot stuff will leave when there are no offerings, leading to a group of readers and writers leaning toward B-plot heavy stories, which in turn makes it look as if no one wants to read A-plot stuff anymore.

Lynn

MLT and Chris - I think you're wrong that the readers don't appreciate a good A-plot. That's why, imho, we have (and should continue to have) a Kerth category specifically for A-plot stories.

It's unfortunate that its name, "Best Drama", always makes people hem and haw and say "But the English word 'drama' doesn't specifically mean an A-plot." I don't think there *is* an English word that specifically means an A-plot. There was a debate one year about whether the term "Best Comedy" really meant the same as best funny story, or whether the name should be changed to something else (I forget what). I think it's simpler if people just go by the category descriptions and aren't too picky about the precise names...

(What, me - picky? Never! What could possibly give anyone that impression?!? )

Mere

I'll agree with ML that writers aren't completely unaware of what other trends are going on, when deciding what to write. And awards can be a nice little incentive, or get someone thinking "hey, what if?". So there's definitely that aspect to it.

As an example: I wrote "My Interview with Superman" because (originally) I wanted to create something to submit to the Merriweathers. That got me started thinking about writing something, and influenced my writing style. Also, there have been several alt-Clark stories recently (the ones by Nan & Krissie spring to mind, but there are others), and it got me to wondering if I could find any new way to approach the idea. No H.G.Wells, no immediate hostility to overcome... and I had an image in my head of alt-Lois watching alt-Clark from the crowd, analyzing him before approaching him. Err, I've wandered from the topic

Anyway, yes, there is some "leadership" effect to the Kerths, but we've chosen to downplay it rather than try to exploit it to select preferred types of stories. What a can of worms that would be... we don't wanna go there.

PJ

So, Mere, your assertion is that if a story does not contain an A-plot, it cannot be considered a drama, regardless of the tone of the story or seriousness of the theme?

I wasn't around for any previous debates on that topic, so I'm somewhat confused by this definition of the word "drama" which requires an A-plot.

Lynn

Very interesting discussion! Personally, other than one Valentine's story and one challenge fic, I've never tried writing a story aimed at a particular readership or category. Taking MLT's song and changing the words slightly, I'm just not a good enough writer to be able to do that. I write what I like and if other people like it too, then I'm lucky.

Inspiration for stories, however, is a slightly different thing, IMO. It comes from a wide range of sources - not, in my case, Kerth categories, but I can see how that would work for other people. BRing as I do for Wendy, for example, I'm well aware of the popularity of TOGOM stories <g> and once tried to write my own - on the basis that if other writers were having fun with this scenario, then perhaps I could, too. I stress writers rather than readers - my motivation to give it a try was to join in the fun other writers were having, not to write a story which would be popular. Anyway, I failed dismally. <g>

Mere, it seems to me that if we want a category which rewards strong A plots, then we should call the category "Best 'A' Plot" <bg>.

MLT, it's not that we don't like A plots. It's just that a lot of us feel very ill-equipped to write them, and we're actually very jealous of people like you and Jenni Debbage who can craft a complex and convincing 'villain' plot. Also, often the story we choose to tell just doesn't need a particularly strong A plot. Lynn's Butterfly Legacy is a good case in point - great drama, IMHO, but zero A plot. Anyway, don't you dare stop writing your kind of L&C story, because I for one enjoy them tremendously.

Yvonne

Yvonne wrote:
Ha! Tell me about it. I have this poor fic sitting on my hard drive, which is has the B-plot entirely worked out and has run into trouble for lack of an A-plot to tie it together. I second that bit about being jealous -- I am truly in awe of writers who can craft a good A-plot. (Speaking of which, does anyone know what has become of Shayne Terry?)

In fact, the stories that make me really sit up and take notice are the ones with a good balance of A-plot and B-plot, such as Yvonne's "Damaged" (which is heavy on the B-plot, certainly, but still has a wonderful A-plot so our favourite characters have a problem to solve together), Wendy's "When Larry Met Charlie", and Nan's "Four Days to Nightfall" -- just for example.

Now, since we evil fanfic writers just lurve to pour on the angst, how about a category for "Best Kryptonite Story"?

JM

Actually, I guess for me there are two different forces at work here. I write because I get an idea (from a variety of sourses, the Kerth's being only one of them) and I have to find out how the story is going to end. So I write.

But I write a lot of stories which have never, and will never be posted. A couple of those stories have even gone to my Beta readers before I decided not to post. A lot more have never even been sent to my Beta readers.

I have to do a lot of extra work after a story is written to make it suitable for others. I spend hundreds of hours on editing a story before I even send it to my Beta readers. And I usually don't bother doing that if I'm not sure that people will want to read it.

I'm only commenting on it because if I find myself reluctant to post, then others probably do as well. And I'd hate to have people not posting because they think that people only want relationship driven stories.

Perhaps the way to deal with it is by having Best Drama - A Plot Driven and Best Drama - Relationship Driven. And then get rid of the Relationship category all together. Just an idea.

Jumping in with a few random thoughts of my own, after having watched with facination as the thread developed...

Drama, I think, used to be the A-plot category. There used to be "Best Villain" and, I think, something like "Best Action." Those, along with "Best Lost Episode," were dropped, and, for a while, Drama was the place that caught all the stories that would have gone to the old categories. "Best Relationship" was for B-plot stories and "Best Drama" was sort of opposite it, for A-plots. I don't think that's really the case anymore, though. As others have said, a story can be a drama with or without an A-plot.

As for leading or lagging... On reflection, actually, I realize that I can only speak for myself. I write whatever comes to mind, regardless of how popular I think it'll be or what categories it might or might not fit, and I send it in when it's ready (or when the archive needs stories to flesh out the weekly upload). I have little to no control over what story I'm working on, what kind of a plot it has, how long it will be, or any of that. It's all dependant upon what ideas come to me and where those ideas take me. Sure, sometimes I respond to challenges, focusing my thoughts on the idea there and trying to see where they go, but beyond that very basic level, I simply can't write to order.

I know I'd love to be able to write a good solid A-plot, and I know that I've got a few stories mouldering away in my WIPs folder waiting for A-plots to make them work. The best A-plot I've ever written was the one that was controlled by reader input. I didn't know how to write it, so I let you guys do all the work. <g>

As for A-plots in general... I enjoy reading a good story, whether it has an A-plot or not. Let me say, ML, you write good stories. Please don't stop. (I would, however, personally prefer to read your stories on the MBs. I find myself intimidated by long stories for no reason I can really name, and am more likely to read them if they're fed to me in managable chunks. That may just be me, though...)

In any case, there's something in all this that scares me a bit. This whole idea of what types of stories are "popular" and trying to fit in with that is sending up warning signals in my head. I mean, if that's really the way that writers are going to go about things, then pretty soon we'll end up with an homogenized pool of stories. Everything will have B-plots and nothing will have A-plots and then certain types of B-plots will fade away and basically we'll have everyone writing the same story. What's the point? Where's the fun?

I do hope that there's room for more variety than that in this fandom, and that, just as importantly, all you writers out there realize it.

Oh, and Chris, there is no such thing as a "runner-up." Winning is very cool, but it's the icing on the cake. It's my understanding that, quite often, the winner is decided by a rather narrow margin. If your stories are consistently nominated, then that should tell you something.

I think there was something else that I wanted to say, but if so, I can't remember what it was. Oh well. I'll just toss this out there and see what you FoLCs make of it.

Paul

EDIT: Just saw ML's latest post (which came up while I was writing this one).

/me sees ML admitting to withholding fic, considers saying something, and then decides that it's more important to just get out the way. Very fast.

Lynn, I'm trying very hard to avoid any debate on the meaning of the English word "drama". All I'm interested in is the definition of the Kerth Drama category. I firmly believe that the two concepts are poles apart.

In respect of the Kerth category: no, I don't believe that an A-plot is absolutely necessary for the Drama category, because the definition on the Kerths page no longer says it is: However, I do also believe that it makes sense to have a Kerth category for stories which have fully-fledged A-plots and another for stories which are heavy on the B-plot side. Whether they're called "Best Drama" and "Best Relationship", "Best A-plot" and "Best B-plot", "Best Drama: A-plot Driven" and "Best Drama: Relationship Driven", or "Best Plugh" and "Best Xyzzy" is a matter of near-complete indifference to me... except that I kinda wish the annual arguments about what to call the damn things could be sorted out sometime before the heat death of the universe.

Mere (not holding her breath )

I've really got no excuse for this post, but...

Hey, that's me!

Paul

You do know that is punishable by FoLC law, right? Fic *must* be posted! Now.. now I'm going to have to sic my cat on you. Sammy, attack! No, not pets, attack! Yes, I love you too, now attack! Fine. Go sit on her wrist, or something. *goes to find another punishment*

Mere, I think we'll just have to agree to differ.

You see (and forgive me if I've understood you wrongly) Relationship and Drama as complimentary opposites, ie Relationship's strength is its B-plot, and Drama's is its A-plot. In a Venn diagram, they'd probably be overlapping circles. I, conversely, see them as two unrelated categories; one celebrates the Relationship aspect of a story, and the other celebrates the mix of humour, angst, relationship development, etc, which when put together, make a good drama. In my Venn diagram, they'd be two separate circles - or perhaps the Relationship circle would even be inside the Drama circle.

As I say, differing opinions, and I don't think we'll ever manage to agree - we both think we're right.

Yvonne

PS: ML, you have stories which haven't been posted??? You do know that was a dangerous thing to admit to, don't you? I see fans tooling up with disks and USB keys and password-breaking programs as we speak...

They think appears to be the operative words here. How about, instead of thinking that they know what readers want - just post and see?

If you never post, well it's just a self-fulfilling prophecy, isn't it?

Go on - they might just surprise you.

LabRat

Hazel

LOL LabRat:
Yes, we don't want to give the muses ideas!!!
Oh, M.L., I can't believe you have stories you haven't posted!! For shame, for shame. You have such great stories. And Chris, I definitely liked your A-plot in Extraordinary Man II.
I like A-plot and I like B-plot in about any mixture. I like Yvonne's idea of a Venn Diagram of Drama and Relationship where there is an overlaping area. I'm probably happiest reading in that area. I love Nan's A driven stories too.
I'm more inclined to write stories I'd like to read and not worry about categories.
Remember, feedback though appreciated, isn't really a good measure of how much readers enjoy your stories because a lot of readers don't give feedback.

Artemis

LOL, Yvonne!

I wanted to say that it doesn't much matter what we think as individuals - it comes down to what KComm put in the category descriptions.

But of course, KComm doesn't have any control over what people nominate where... so some people, such as Carol, will nominate stories according to the category descriptions; other people, such as you and Lynn, will nominate according to their interpretations of the category names; and the really obsti^H^H^H^H^H^H diffic^H^H^H^H^H^H^H opinio^H^H^H^H^H^H^H dogmatic people like me will nominate the stories where they think they should go even if neither the category names or descriptions really match up... like good revelation scenes rather than good fics which happen to have revelations in them, in the Revelation categories.

Ah well - it'll all come out in the wash in the end, and with a bit of luck all the best stories will win something!

Mere

Okay, I've given this some thought and I've come to the following conclusions:

First, I'll generally write stories because I want to write them, rather than because I think they will fit neatly into a particular fanfic niche. (I certainly didn't have a niche in mind when I wrote A Match Made In Chicago; in fact, I was waiting for the tomatoes to come flying in my direction, given the subject matter! ) In other words, I let inspiration dictate what I write.

Second, I do think how much enthusiasm I can muster for a WIP is influenced by my (possibly wrong) perceptions of what will be popular with readers. For short stories, this is probably less of a concern in so far as there is relatively little time and effort involved in putting them down on paper.

Longer stories, though, require a lot of planning and effort. (Not that I've written that many... but this might explain why.) If I doubt there is a readership out there, I might be tempted not to embark on / complete such a major project. Alternatively, I might stall part way through.

My perceptions of what is popular, however, is only one factor in determining what or how I write, and I don't think that it is the major one. A story has to 'grab' me enough for me to be bothered to finish it. It depends on my mood and what RL is up to, too. Plus, I have a dreadful habit of flitting from one idea to another. I wish that I could focus more on just one project and wrestle it into submission before starting on the next... but it doesn't work that way!

Changing tack slightly:

Thank you to Paul and Artemis for words of support!

Paul: I hear what you are saying about 'no such thing as a runner up', and, giving all the reading that I've been doing over the last few weeks, I do appreciate that Kerth competition is very stiff. The fact remains, I've never yet mananged to win a Kerth, and that year on year 'failure' does sap at my morale! I try not to let it, but it happens. I wonder how many other people in a similar position feel the same way. (Sorry for the whinge, guys.)

Artemis: thank you for saying that you liked EMII's A Plot. I needed to hear that. Believe me, I did.

Chris

I feel guilty for not giving more feedback!! Truth be told, if I've dl from the Archive I'm unlikely to give feedback. If I'm reading in parts from the MBs, I'll probably chime in a FDK thread with "Way to go!" It depends on how RL is doing. I reread EMI, BTW to get me ready to read EMII.
Anyway, be sure to keep writing. You have a solid talent.
r/
Artemis

Chris, there is definitely a difference between winning and not winning, I'll grant you that. I've won once. Which, I have to say, is one more than I ever expected I'd win. Being nominated for the first time was a huge thrill, but winning, even for a "minor" category like Super Short, was amazing. I'd actually had a speech prepared in my head, just in case it did happen, but was so taken aback that it was literally days before I remembered what I'd planned to say.

I can understand your disapointment, too. I had expected to pick up an Alt-Kerth (are we ever going to have those again, BTW?), and even though I had a lot of fun participating, I have to admit I was, well, disappointed that, despite several nominations, I didn't win a single category.

I also remember being disappointed when the first Kerths came along and all my stories were eligible and I didn't pick up a single nomination.

The next year was even more frustrating because of a single story, arguably my best story to date. It was a Spider-man crossover, and it had taken me months to write. It was my first real B-plot, it had something like a real A-plot, and to this day, it remains the only story I've written myself to ever break 100k. At the time I wrote it, the archive was offering a BR referral service. I took them up on it, but my BR got involved with RL issues and took a year to get back to me. By then, another story had been submitted with the title I'd been intending to use. So I came up with a new title and sent the story in, only to discover that the system of GEs had been established. The story was reviewed again (this time by my first GE, some woman from the UK by the name of Wendy...) and then uploaded (in that batch that took the archive's total over 1000). I was, by then, pretty proud of it, and I'd put a lot of effort into it. For the second Kerths, though, the category of "Best Fanboy" story (where I'd thought it would have the best chance) was abolished. My story wasn't nominated at all, but, to my surprise, another Spider-man crossover did get the nod... the one that had taken my title!

So, anyway.. what was my point? Oh, right. I've been through frustration and disappointment and I can sympathize. I've won once, and I realize what that can mean. I still hold, however, that just being nominated is a big deal, all the more so when it happens regularly.

So, let's take a look at your situation. You have 21 stories on the archive. 5 of those are eligible this year. Of the remaining 16, 11 have been nominated. With your nomination for Best New Author, that makes 12. That is absolutely amazing. Do you realize how many authors can claim anything like that (by total or percentage)? No more than a handful, I assure you. Do you have any idea how many have never even been nominated?

Okay, yeah. Winning would be very cool. It's always something to hope for. Hoping a dozen times only to see it not happen can be frustrating and disappointing, sure. You've still got one of the best track records around, one that I'm sure plenty of good writers would envy. It's all in how you look at it, Chris.

Anyway, that's enough rambling out of me for now. What I'm trying to say is that I think you're a darned good writer, and obviously there are plenty of FoLCs who would agree. So, keep writing, and don't let that very fierce and very slim margin between nomination and winning get you down.

Paul

Thank you, Paul. Now I feel very, um, but oddly better, too.

Chris

At one time I held the 'Susan Lucci' title of L&C fandom of the most nominations without a win. I quite possibly still do. (Not the most nominations, mind you, but just the most without a win). Now this is a title I'm perversely proud of... BUT Chris has been right on my tail for some time, so...

I think it's time to give that gal a Kerth. After all, she is an excellant writer and has written many Kerth worthy efforts. So lets get in there and vote for Chris.

Tank (who thinks he maybe should have waited until the nominations to start his cheerleading for Ms. Carr)

Catching up here and also frantically trying to get my nominations together. But, having read through all the replies and also checked the quizzes, it looks like I'm probably the only person who takes the Kerth category descriptors literally!
So have concluded I too can ignore them except for the length requirements. That should makes nominating easier.
Second Tank's cheer for Chris and adding one for him too.

c