Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Related The Care and Feeding of Beta Readers

Authors, how do you treat your betas? Or maybe I should ask betas how they want to be treated <g>

I'm getting to the point again where I'll need a BR, so I've been thinking about this lately. I want someone who's got the same general idea of the characters that I have, someone to keep my commas in line, someone to help me keep track of my plot, and mostly, someone to cheerlead for me I like to have several betas for each story, if I can. So, who do I choose? Well, there are the people I've worked well with before. But some of them are busy with other stories or traveling or changing continents or something silly like that If I know they're really busy I might not even bother asking if they've got the time to help me out. Betas put in a lot of their time for a story that doesn't even have their name under the title and I try to be appreciative of mine.

So, I'm thinking on the keyboard, so to speak... is there an established etiquette for treating beta readers? Betas, have you been abused? Authors, has a beta reader done you wrong? Any horror stories out there?

Try to keep it to generalities, though, without pointing any fingers. This isn't about getting back at anyone. In fact, we can just all assume that any bad examples involved FOLCs who've already left the fandom, so it couldn't possibly be any of us <g>

Make any sense? Discuss amongst yourselves!

PJ

You are very lucky, Pam. Some authors have people jumping to beta read their stories. A post like this makes others who have one beta reader when they kind of wish they had more -- and have asked numerous times -- very jealous. It seems like you have no trouble finding betas, your trouble is choosing which ones to use. And that is VERY lucky, indeed.

Don't get me wrong, I am eternally grateful for Tricia's help on all of my stories, but sometimes I want a second opinion. I understand that it is a matter of interests and styles and personality, but I know I would love to have a second or third beta reader -- and that could be due to my own insecurity. It constantly baffles me why some authors have tons of adoring fans and beta readers while others have none. I know this is going to be flamed, but at this point, I don't care. It seems that the people who have tons of readers and people nagging them/clammoring for more are the people who have the most beta readers. And I understand that. It's only natural.

I really think that people actively avoid reading my stories when they see my name. And the same is probably true for beta reading -- i.e. she is a bad writer. her stories are going to be hard/painful to get through. I know others feel this way after a conversation on IRC yesterday. I know at least in my case, my grammar isn't too bad, and what I really need help with is plot -- whether it is realistic and if I have used too much repitition .

Anyway, I've probably said too much. I am usually good at keeping my mouth shut. Wait. I am never good at keeping my mouth shut.

Laura (waiting for people to tell her she's crazy like they always do)

I have been lucky, true... though not as much as I might have made it sound. I've also spent years building up friendships and exchanging favors with other authors. Like the times I shamelessly beg to beta <g> Still, there are times I can't get anyone to look at my stuff, for one reason or another -- and I never just assume that people are going to want to help me with the next story, just because they did with the last one, so in a sense, I'm starting from scratch each time.

Forgive me if I'm not coherent -- my daughter started running a fever last night and threw up about four or five times overnight. So I'm sleep-deprived and distracted by a cranky child.

PJ

Writing this in several spurts as I'm running late on my very carefully planned schedule for the night (get out of work, go to the post office to get some Can $ - WOOHOO, go home, give my key to the neighbours, finish my packing - WOOHOO, make mac and cheese, eat, have a hot bubble bath, watch TV, read a little, spend time on irc, sleep...) Anyway, in between looking over the pasta and checking my email, here's my opinion.

Beta-readers... I can't ever be grateful enough towards them. I'm very lucky indeed to have always worked with the same betas. Nevertheless, what you said struck a chord, Pam. Like you, I never assume that just because my betas usually read all my stories, they will read the next one.

I think that's mostly because as a regular BR for those particular people (those who do write anyway - /me glares at El and Annette), I've had to decline BRing for them several times, much as I hated to. And so I know how busy and stressed one can become, especially when things pile up and you never see the end of it.

So whenever I do have time to write a little and send things to my BRs, I ask them first. If they say they're too busy, then so be it. And if they take the story and then later on tell me they really don't have time after all, well, that's okay, too. We've all had times in our life where we just couldn't handle everything.

After all, BRs aren't paid. They don't owe us anything. It's already a HUGE favour they're doing us of looking over our stories and offering us the suggestions/feedback/edits/cheerleading we thrive for. So A HUNDRED CHEERS FOR BRs!!!!!!! You guys are the best.

Laura, your post made me think of something, actually. I realise that here again I've been very lucky to get BRs that like the same kind of thing as I do. I think it's essential to find a beta you're compatible with. Someone who shares your tastes in writing and reading, and who has the same perception of the characters as you do. I'm not saying it's easy to find, but if you do find one of those, then they're extremely precious.

Anyway, that's just my .02 on beta-reading. Hope that made sense. Now going to eat that pasta.

Kaethel

I've always been of the opinion that beta reading is like marriage. It's not as simple as just author and beta reader getting together. There does have to be some compatiblity there, otherwise it's not going to work. For example, it's no good volunteering to beta read for an author who loves to write introspection if you hate introspection. That's a simplistic example, but it makes the point.

Most authors have, I think, built up beta readers through friendships first. Or through beta reading for compatible authors and getting return favours. Sometimes, the way to gain a beta reader is to be a beta reader.

I do feel guilty about not rushing to answer each and every beta reading ad I see. I like to help - especially if it's a new author, just starting out. My own betas have given me so much help and made writing so enjoyable and fun and educational over the years, that I do like to give a little of that back to the community so to speak where I can. But I simply don't have time to beta read for all and have to accept that. Nor, I think, do many authors here. We have lives too.

On the care of betas? Don't be demanding. Do ask if someone has time to beta for you - never assume that just because they had time to beta your first story that they can automatically cope with your second...and third...and fourth.

Remember to thank them for their time and hard work. They don't get paid for this, so make them feel appreciated. And do credit them in the story itself. It all helps to make them feel that they're not being taken for granted.

I know there's more than that but I'm out of posting time. (Stargate starts in zero minus five minutes and I have to set the DVD to record ) But may come back later, if I think of something else vitally important that's worth posting.

LabRat

I agree with everyone so far in that establishing a good beta/writer relationship is based very much on a mutual appreciation for the same thing. For example, I love KathyB's writing and have asked for her help on one of my stories. She kindly assisted me and her input was invaluable. However, on this last story - high angst and WHAM factor - I think KathyB would have been quite possibly the last person I would have approached for a beta reader because I know she doesn't prefer that kind of story.

But also, I think there is another critical element. I don't think it's only what you write but also how well you work with the betas who have so kindly offered to help you. Because that's exactly what they are doing - helping you. Taking some of their very valuable time to read your story carefully and make remarks as to what they like and how they think your story could be improved. If you aren't happy with how quickly your beta reader can get through your stuff or that they might need to bump your story down in priority for other RL issues, then I think that relationship is doomed to fail. In which case, I see it as only reasonable for the beta to explain his/her limitations and be permitted to walk away from the story without any hard feelings.

Same thing goes with comments - if your beta consistently gives you advice with which you disagree, then it seems an almost pointless exercise to have him/her look over your stuff. Not that you should feel pressured to make every suggested change. Simply, if there is rarely if ever an issue on which you agree, then it seems as if the match is not a very good fit and you should perhaps find a different beta reader. I know as a beta reader that it would be very frustrating to make suggestions that were constantly ignored or that incited actual argument. It's all a matter of opinion and since no one gets paid to be a beta, there is certainly no reason to endure a headache.

Taking care of your beta can be as simple as a thank-you in the notes of your story but should also include a healthy dose of respect for that person. I think a writer should never, never assume that the beta has nothing else to do in his/her life that they can focus entirely on the story at any given moment. Patience is key as is understanding that sometimes things just come up that take precidence. For me, I have a nasty habit of shutting down all other functions when I'm in the midst of writing. I just can't focus on anything else, so I have to apologize profusely to the writers on whose stories I'm working because it takes me much longer to turn my remarks around.

I have two beta readers that I use consistently, and as long as they are willing, I feel very happy and grateful for their help. I do ask them, however, with every new story if they have the time, energy, and inclination to start up a new effort. I warn them if it will be long and involved. And I tell them with every section that I send to them that they should take as much time as necessary. If either of them were to need to back out for any reason (even that they just got sick and tired of the story and no longer felt they had anything of value to offer) I would competely understand. Nothing in this world worse than trying to beta read a story that for whatever reason is just not sitting quite right with you. I'd much rather have someone tell me honestly that they need to beg off than to grimace every time they see my name in their e-mail inbox.

And I return the favor - my door is always open to look over my betas' stuff in return. In fact, that's not a payback - I view that as a bonus for myself because I get to read their amazing stuff first!!

Sometimes I've prevailed upon people to help me out with questions regarding elements of a story. For example, I grilled DocJill one night on IRC for some medical answers. I've engaged Tricia in numerous e-mails regarding things about Australia that I've needed clarified. And I think I've even asked Wendy for the name of a good bookstore in London. While I don't consider any of these people official beta readers, still I am so very grateful for their help and thankful that we have a community so willing to share their collective knowledge.



Lynn

How true, Lynn! Unfortunately I had to back out a couple of times and every single time the authors I was BR-ing for were extremely kind and understood that much as I hated it I wasn't able to help them anymore. Not once I felt they resented me or weren't grateful for what little I could do.

Moreover, they credited and thanked me in their stories. (That actually still boggles the mind. I mean, I dump them and they thank me?? Hmm...makes you wonder if maybe they were happy to have finally got rid of me...

I'm going to come back to read the thread properly in a bit - something Laura said made me want to respond immediately.

Laura, I was there for that conversation you mention in your post. First off, I have to say that what you say here is ridiculous. I don't know who in particular you're talking about here, but I'll give myself as an example, whether or not I fall into the category you mention.

Currently, I have one regular BR: Yvonne - and I am immensely, inordinately grateful for what she does for me. Others BR for me occasionally, when they have time.

What do you consider to be lots of BRs? Two? Three? If your styles are compatible, one can be plenty. I understand that at present you have two.

As for the IRC conversation, what that was about was explaining that people who are already BRing for several different authors don't neceessarily have time to take on new authors - though I sometimes will if I have free time and I'm not busy with GEing and/or moving continents as well at the same time. Needless to say, I stopped BRing for those writers.

I've also just had writers send me, out of the blue, something they've written. No advance request; not even a 'I wondered if you'd be interested in BRing this for me' - just 'I wrote this - what do you think?'.

So this is what works for me - when I'm BRing, and when I'm working with BRs myself.

Thanks for the thread, Pam!


Wendy

I think the BR/writer relationship is very often a symbiotic one. Just about everyone I've beta read for has also BRed my stuff. It's not just a simple return favour, either. It's a very tentative, gentle "um...I don't suppose...if you're not too busy...?"

Never forget that we're in this for fun. The moment I feel like I'm stopping someone else from having fun is the moment I'll back off so fast you won't see me for dust.

Yvonne

Having been honored to pick up the title of Beta Reader, I feel utterly humbled that someone is willing to give my opinion any credance in her current work. And I'm even more thrilled when I see that idea worked into the story.

As far as using a beta reader, I was glad for the sporatic times someone offered <<big hugs to those, you know who you are>>. The ideas were very welcome even if I wasn't patient enough to wait around for them to email me back. Just knowing there was somebody interested in my work inspired me to write even more.

TEEEEEEEEJ

I'm what you'd call a "very active" reader. I have asked to BR for some authors whose works I admire. I've also inadvertently BR'd by asking for advance copy when I've headed out on the road (sneaky...but they take pity on me when I sit in airports ) I feel that I've 'discovered' some authors (I can't believe how great Jon Wolff's stories were.) And sometimes I've found that being very different from the author (age, background, whatever) is of use. (I once had to threaten a writer to remove a reference to a "grassy knoll". She said 'but I liked that phrase'. I insisted that she not use it...EVER.)

I'd love to take on new BR duties, but I'll hasten to add that "you get what you ask for". I'll do grammar, punctuation, context, and simple sensory feedback (how did that paragraph make you feel Ms. Murphy?). But it's much easier to BR when an author is looking for something specific and asks that a particular pass be for a particular purpose. I'm always worried about insulting someone if I get too picky or not specific enough. In other words, if you want writing help, that's one thing; if you want to know 'if the story works for me', that's another. I confess to being unsure of my role sometimes, so I like clarity of purpose. Then again, I've BR'd a couple of times when I really felt like saying--send this back when you've spell checked it--so I'd say the only thing that is really BR abuse is expecting them to correct the simple stuff that you should have already checked out.

If you are a writer looking for a BR, I'm open for duty again. Feel free to email me. (You can go through the MK site below...it's easiest.)

Sherry

Great thread, Pam!

Reading all of these great responses leads me to another question...

Is it considered bad form to leave your BR with a cliffhanger?

Sometimes I'll feel guilty for this very thing, but in all actuality, I kinda want to know if it's a *good* cliffhanger. Is that selfish? Should I be waiting until the next part is ready to be BR before I send *both* parts off? Or do BRs like that sort of thing...you know...that masochistic trait that we all may or may not admit to having?

Sara (who is really lurking -- hiding from everyone, including her BRs, until her next part is done -- so you didn't see me here )

I'd be willing to beta read for people but I never volunteer because I usually never know what I'm getting myself into.

So, some advice...

Writers, if you want a beta reader, and you decide to post a message on these boards asking for one, it would be great if you included the following information:

*Genre of the story or brief description of it (really, if you want to catch my interest so that I'll want to beta it, say something ABOUT your story!)

*Current length of the story (just to give the potential beta a rough estimate of how much time they'll be investing. I know, it varies, but I might be more prone to taking a job if I'm sure it won't be a 150k-word novel or something. Although those can be fun, I do have to make time for my own writing SOMETIME.)

*State explicitly what you'd like your beta(s) to do -- up front.

*If you want it beta'ed in a hurry (like "within a week") then say so! If you're more flexible, say so. Just be honest & clear. Personally, I'd be much more prone to beta'ing for you if you said that it could be done within a month or two... cuz yeah I'm slow. But that's just me.

(*watches as all the writers run away*)

*And finally, state what kind of criticism you'll accept. I mean I know it sounds silly, but I know someone who asked for a beta reader, and then sent them her story. The beta reader told this writer that she didn't like certain parts of it, and gave her all this advice. The writer was in tears, because she hadn't wanted criticism, she'd just wanted compliments and some spellchecking. Well sorry, guys, but it doesn't work that way. So it would be really helpful if you state upfront something like "Constructive criticism strongly desired!" because I'd much rather beta for someone who I can be honest with than someone I have to tiptoe around. But if you just need a spellchecker, then say so, and I'll just stick to doing that one task and not comment on your plot at all.


I have run across a few beta requests that are just, like: "I need a beta for a story I'm working on, I need help with the plot. Thanks."

That doesn't tell me much of anything and definitely doesn't get me intrigued enough to want to read your story or help you out.

Sara, regarding cliffhangers, I don't think it's inherently bad to leave your BR with one, as long as you recognize that they might be screaming at you for what comes next. <g>

Seriously, though, I've left my BRs with cliffhangers, either suspenseful ones or just plain boring ones, just because I hadn't written what came next yet. (I still give Wendy a lot of credit for putting up with me on WFBL. I would leave her for weeks or months at a time simply because I had given her all I had and hadn't had time to write more.) And I've BRed stories with cliffhangers, as well, and have happily written to the author with a "Ack! You can't leave me there!" that left us both laughing. Sometimes that was all they'd written, and sometimes they'd send me what they had so far of the next section, but as long as I felt we were communicating on the story, I was fine.

So to me, the difference between a BR experience that leaves me excited and one that leaves me frustrated is how I interact with the author. I once stopped BRing for someone in the middle of a story because she was making me crazy by withholding information. For example, she'd send me a part that I felt was wildly out of character, but when I'd tell her so, she'd just keep sending me vague (and I felt patronizing) comments like "Ha ha, you'll find out soon enough!" instead of letting me know what she had in mind or why she was doing it the way she was. This was incredibly frustrating to me because I was putting in a lot of time making what I hoped were insightful and helpful comments, only to have it made very clear that she wasn't changing anything nor even cared what I thought of it. That's when I finally told her that I would just read the story when it came out and to please stop sending me sections. When a BR job is frustrating rather than fun (for either party -- I've certainly used BRs who didn't share my vision of the characters and probably drove them nuts by not taking their suggestions ) -- then those two people are not compatible and should not be working together.

Kathy

I'll respond in detail tomorrow -- I am getting sleepy now , but I needed to say this.

Actually, Wendy, you weren't. I did have a BR conversation in the channel, but the conversation I referred to was actually a private one. It would violate confidences if I said who it was, though, because I am not sure she even wants to get into this.

I am just saying that it is important for people who have people who nag and have readers clammer for more of a story are lucky. What do I consider "a lot"? More than 1 beta reader and more than 10 comments on a story. Like I said,I know can never win this argument when people are so set that they are right and I am wrong.

- Laura

Well, I'm not sure I have much to add, but I did have a couple things I wanted to mention.

First off, there's an old thread by the same title that might be of interest. At first, I thought someone had gone and dug it up. I was very surprised to discover that this was an entirely new thread which had somehow filled out since yesterday. Anyway, if you want to, you can go here for some more posts on the same subject. There are pointers for how to treat a BR and some for how to get one. If you're reading this thread, that one is probably worth at least a quick look. Unfortunately, a lot of the discussion was lost during a boards crash, but there are still some interesting points.

Second -- Sara, it's okay to leave your BRs with a cliffhanger. In fact, I've worked with an author who deliberately did that (and, just as I typed this, popped up to say "hi" on AIM. ). The idea was that she wanted to get my reaction to the cliffhanger, to see how well it would go over, to see what I was thinking (How will it be resolved? What will happen next?).

Another author sent me a full outline along with a bunch of scenes which were more or less in order (but missing bits and pieces). It's what she had at the time. So, I knew what was going to happen, and then had the opportunity to see how well it fit together and how it got fleshed out. I could see how she was setting things up, too.

I know of others who only send out their stories to be BRed after they're complete. The BRs read, send comments, and then the author goes back through and creates a whole new draft.

There are a bunch of very different approaches, but all are entirely workable. It depends on what you have written, how you write, when the BR joins in, and what you want the BR to do/look out for.

(BTW, as long as I'm writing (and you're presumably reading), I wanted to double-check that you got my email, Sara. Aparantly, I've been having trouble sending email. I get it just fine, but it doesn't always send. If you don't have the message I sent Tuesday morning, please let me know.

EDIT: Never mind. I read the boards from the bottom up, so I hadn't seen that you'd already posted.)

As for myself, I rarely work with a BR. I'm not sure why. Usually, I just write short things and don't bother looking for someone to edit. It's those rare times when I have a longer story that I look for a BR, but, like Laura, I've often had trouble finding one. I'm sure the fact that I don't have anyone I regularly work with is a factor, but I can think of a couple other factors, as well. Quality of writing and social connections certainly come into play.

I was thrilled when Sara (Farnegal) volunteered to read for me. I'm just sorry I haven't had anything to send her since then. I've been tired and haven't written anything in weeks. Hopefully, I'll get back to writing soon-ish, and hopefully Sara won't be too busy or something by then. We'll see.

Anyway, I've kind of lost my chain of thought now, and I don't think I have more to add. So, sorry for the abrupt ending, but that's it. For now.

Paul

Having found time to read the rest of the thread now, I just wanted to add that I agree with everyone who said that it takes time to build up to having BRs and to getting a steady working relationship with them. For at least my first year of writing, I didn't have any BRs. Yvonne was my first beta-reader, with Jenni a close second: I was working on a story and had got stuck, and they each offered to take a look. And thanks to their help I got reassurance that the story was worth persevering with and suggestions to get it finished. Others have BRed for me over the years - sometimes because they're interested in a particular story, sometimes because I've been BRing for them and have asked, as Yvonne said, 'um... if you're not too busy...?' And, yes, as LabRat has said, these relationships do mostly develop through friendships. I like X's writing, we get chatting on email or IRC or whatever, we get along well and become friendly, we start talking about plots and so on and brainstorming - and then the question gets asked. Or X likes my writing, or whatever.

Beta-reading is nothing like Archive editing. If someone just wants spelling and grammar checked, that's easy - unless you're talking half a dozen errors per line. BRing for someone does require a degree of compatibility - Rat, Kathy and a few others made those points too.

Beta-reading is one of the most valuable services anyone can provide for an author. And maybe, with any luck, one benefit of this thread might be that someone who has never thought about BRing could consider giving it a try?


Wendy

To the authors.

I've read probably about 90% of the stories on the lcfanfic site and a good many of the ones here. Plus I've saved them all to disk. I'm not a very good writer myself but I was told years ago when I was in school that I had good ideas but just wasn't good at expressing them in story. Anyway the reason for this posting is to say I would be happy to Beta read for someone.

My favorite stories are the ones that stick closes to the characterization on the show although I'm flexible. I guess the only stories I truly don't like are deathfics or Tank Endings. I really hate Tank Endings. Alt-World stories are fine. I also really like stories that occur before marriage but after the revelation. I guess want I'm saying is I can be flexible as long as you don't go killing off the main characters. (Lois, Clark, Perry or Jimmy).

Also NFic stories are great too.

Is it okay to leave your BR on a cliffhanger? Oh, boy. I used to be considerate and finish a complete section before I sent it off to my BR, but these days, I'm just as likely to send them something that stops in the middle of a sentence. That's just part of the mystical relationship that many people have referred to - you get more familiar with each other and the boundaries begin to shift a little.

Yvonne

There are writers who *don't* leave their BR's hanging off cliffs? One of my earliest adventures in BR'ing was for Chris, on Dimensions of Loving, and I recall the cruel cliffhangers she left me dangling on... <g> I think I threatened her once or twice, and by that point, I knew where she lived... In general, though, I think it's fine to send a cliffhanger, to see what reaction it gets, and what expectations are being set up. Just be aware that if it works, you're in trouble

Paul, thanks for finding that old thread! I knew we'd done one awhile ago, but a quick search didn't turn it up, so I stopped looking.

PJ

I once had a very enlightening conversation with CC about her cliffhangers and she emailed me a big hunk of text for the purpose of discussing where to put the break. If I may be so bold, I think it was helpful to discuss how breaking at point A would send *this* message and she'd be threatened by *this* group; and how breaking at point B would send *this other* message and she'd be threatened by *this other* group. :p

I think it helped her clarify the message she wanted to send. (As opposed to those days when she just loves yanking the whole bunch of us around. )

Sherry

Beta-reading? Yikes... this is kind of a grey area for me, as my very first experience with BRing makes me go is because a certain little bird goes into a bit of a tail-spin midflight when I do things like that, and I want to see all of these fab fics sooner rather than later... rest assured, I'll beat them all out of her and onto the boards eventually. Hear that, Pel?!? And I'm currently looking over Paul's story, which is just utterly fantastic and which I'm enjoying immensly, and;

Awwww... normally in a situation like this I'd nag til my throat went raw [just ask Pel <g>] for new parts... but I fully understand having-no-time, Paul. Whenever you're ready, I'm right here - and no, I won't be too busy

And... okay, really should be sleeping. Anyway, this was my two cents' worth... hope I haven't irritated people by being a day or two or a dozen late in replying to this thread...

Sara

I know this thread was last month topic, but does this topic really fades out?

Well, I just wanted to say that, as an ESL writer I do need all the help I can get. And to BR for someone as hyper as me is an extremely difficult thing to do.

The first time I came here, I asked for a BR. At first, no one accepted that and I decided I should post at least one part of my story so perhaps someone would pity me and would agree to help me. Needless to say my writing was a total disaster, but, fortunately, I got help.

My first BRs were SQD and SuperRoo. One completing each other's job. I couldn't thank them enough everytime I posted a part. I sent them kisses, notworthies... and everything I could to express how grateful I was (And still am) for the changes they made on my writing.

A little after, RL took both girls away, leaving me an orphan on the boards. That's when I met Rachel (psychofurball) who took the position of Best-Reader. She didn't look for grammar, but reassured me everytime I needed it and when I didn't need it either.

Sometimes, for quick things like the MLTVs, I got really nice people who helped me at noodles-speed. I also cant thank them enough.

I must quote something LabRat said:

Labby, I'd like to thank you very much for handling this hard task of BRing for a newbie ESL like me. Your comments, your support, and your honesty makes me become a better writer.

Finally, I'd like to thank SQD for letting me return the favor and be her Best-Reader.

As you all know an ESL could never correct grammar from a native speaker so I just Best-Read. I just try to do my best to give back to her all her support and her caring for me and for my stories.

I know I need to work on a few things to improve each day. I know I cant thank all my BRs enough. But let me here show my appreciation for all you guys who BR for someone.

Now that I am a BR myself, I can tell you... we don't receive any money, but what we get in return is priceless.

Thanks for your time. And if anyone wants to BR this post for me... Er... I would accept.

MDL.