Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Related A Bit of a Writing Riddle

OK, I've written a couple of sentences in my latest WIP that have me scratching my head. They sound correct to my "ears", but when I look at them carefully, I'm not sure that they actually mean what I intend them to mean.

For example:

In the sentence:

He had little doubt that they weren't the same shoes he'd already bought.

Now, does this mean

a) He was pretty sure that these were the same shoes he'd already bought
or
b) He was pretty sure that these were not the same shoes he'd already bought

Another one is:

She wondered if perhaps she hadn't dreamt the whole thing altogether.

Does this mean

a) She wondered if she had dreamt the whole thing?
or
b) She wondered if she had not dreamt the whole thing?

In both instances, my intention is to say a but I fear that I've said b instead. Which is the correct way? The more I think about it, the more confused I become.

What's this called? Is it a double negative?

Do I just think too much?

Lynn

I'm thinking B on this one. That was my initial reaction. After rereading it a few times, I'm confused even more. So I'm going to stick with B.

Initial reaction was B. But that's because I knew what I thought, but couldn't translate it to the choices. She's wondering if it wasn't actually a dream, instead of reality.

Ok well little doubt = pretty sure, so I would pick b.


This one I'm not really sure about. I want to say it sounds like a to me, but literally taken, it would mean b, I think. Arrgh. Maybe this is some weird subjective case?

These are the things that make me hate the English language ;p

Lynn,

For the second one, I think the sentence could go either way, depending on inflection and context. I instinctively read it as A (which is what you intended, right?), but if you emphasized the "hadn't" and put it in context, it could be B. (What an awful dream. She stumbled out of bed to find the mud from the dream decorating the kitchen floor. She wondered if perhaps she hadn't dreamt the whole thing.) Note: Just noticed. The 'altogether' seems to clarify that she thinks it was a dream.

For the first one, I think the sentence is awkward -- in that it takes a couple read-throughs to figure out what exactly you meant (no instinct kicks in like with number two). And after looking at it, I think it clearly says B. Ha had little doubt = He was pretty sure. That = what he's sure of. They weren't the same shoes he'd already bought = They were not the shoes he's already bought.

Any help?

Bethy

Without knowing any previous context which might clarify the intention of the writer, my answer would be B for #1 and A for #2. I would read the first literally and the second as an idiom. Neither is a double negative. However these examples illustrate the kind of unclear writing that we all fall into at times. Whenever the writer's meaning is unclear, s/he should re-write until it is clear.

Jude

Hi Lynn!
That was quite a riddle! After puzzling for a while over them, I'm in agreement with everyone else--after really analyzing these I think they both actually mean B. The first might be a double-negative problem (which are always confusing, I think!) and I'd think the best way to resolve it would be:

"He was fairly certain that they were the same shoes he'd already bought."

For the second one, since we're taking it out of context it's harder. I think what you're trying to say is, "Wow! A crazy/amazing thing just happened! Maybe it was all just a dream!" If that's the case, try:

"She wondered if perhaps she had dreamt the whole thing altogether."

BUT! If I've misunderstood you, and your point was to say, "Whoa, what a crazy/amazing dream! Wait a minute, I think it really did happen!" ...then I'd stick with your original.

Does that make any sense? I hope I've helped!
--Wanda

My answers are B for 1 and A for two. The first one I had to read through a couple of times; I just went for the literal meaning. The second one...it's kind of the way I talk sometimes, so I based it on that. Jude called it, oh yeah, an idiom. I suppose I speak using a lot of idioms.


JD

My take would be to rewrite both sentences so that whatever meaning you intended was clear.

Tank (who always takes the easy way out)

In case you're interested in an ESL's opinion:

The first sentence looks to me like option A. Although, depending on "how" you read this, you may think he has a nagging thought that they may not be the shoes he'd already bought. When you write pretty sure instead, the nagging thought almost disappears.

The second sentence looks to me like option B.

(I have to point out though, Tank's got a point )

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

Yeah, I'm pretty much with the others.

The first one clearly says B to me.

The second could go either way, but I would actually read it as C -- both. It's the "perhaps." That adds an extra degree of uncertainty. So, she's thinking "hmm. Was that a dream? Maybe. Or maybe not. It's just so weird..." She's debating back and forth, not sure what to think.

Ultimately, I'm with Tank. If it's so confusing that your readers will have to look back over it and take it apart, if it's so confusing that, rereading it, even you aren't sure what it says, if it's so confusing that you have to post here ask "does this say what I think it says?" ... well, then, I say it's time for some rewriting.

Paul

Coming into this discussion late, I have to agree with Tank. When in doubt, rewrite.

But I'd like to make a few comments:

In the first case, although it is not technically a double negative, the sentence structure is built implying the negative. (much in the same way that certain words build in the conditional like "if". In many languages other than English, the double negative is the right construction. That's why I think that the sentence sounds right to Anna.

In the second sentence what confuses me is the "if perhaps"...and ..."whole thing altogether" which are both redundant. The sentence makes perfect sense simply as: She wondered if she had dreamt the whole thing.

Often, the simpler the sentences, the clearer they are. You know, the KISS principle.

Just keep writing away, Lynn. I'm looking forward to reading your next work.

gerry

Thank you all, so much, for the help on this one.

I think on Example #1, it is pretty clear that the way I have it written is not the way meaning I meant to convey. So back to the proverbial drawing board...

As for the second example, Jude nailed it - it must be that the phrase is an idiom, which is why it sounds all right even though taking it apart might tend to make it mean something that it wasn't supposed to.

Contextually, the sentence figures in this way: Something great happened to Lois. But it happened a long time ago, and her memory of it had faded. In fact, she was starting to wonder if it had ever really happened at all. She wondered if perhaps she hadn't dreamt the whole thing altogether.

In the end, I guess you all are telling me the best way to go. Rewrite both sentences, make them more simple, and remove any confusion altogether.

Thanks
Lynn