In the 'Would Alt-Clark kill himself' thread, the conversation strayed a little off-topic, as it frequently does, to the subject of warnings for WHAMmy stories. We have some authors who are reluctant to post what they feel are spoilers for their stories, believing that these reduce the dramatic impact, although they are willing to do it for the sake of those readers who are unhappy with the idea of encountering serious WHAMs without a warning. There are readers who prefer not to read, or are wary of, stories with serious WHAMs, and appreciate being given a warning so that they can choose whether to read the story or not, or wait until it's complete. And then there are readers who are happy to take what comes and hate being spoiled in any way.

How can these different views be accommodated? Thus far, the practice - out of courtesy - has been for authors to include a WHAM warning, and sometimes a 'fixing the toys' promise, at the start of their story. But this, while seen as a much-appreciated courtesy by some, is a clear spoiler to others.

(I should add that, while this practice is far from mandatory - though I suspect some readers wish it were - it is customary on the Archive for deathfics - stories where either Lois or Clark dies - to be labelled as such).

Once, Tank used a separate thread for his WHAM warning, simply telling readers that it was there and they could read or not read as they wished. That was less of a spoiler for those readers who didn't want to be spoiled, though the mere existence of that thread told them that there was something WHAMmy in the story.

So here's a different idea. You may be aware that there is already a Tank Warning thread stickied to the top of the fanfic folder. What if we created a WHAM warning thread in both Fanfic and nFanfic, and authors posting stories with WHAMs could post their WHAM warning in there - or ask someone else to post it for them, so that their name appearing in that thread didn't offer a spoiler for any reader who didn't want to be spoiled. I'm sure a means could be worked out, too, whereby the story title didn't need to be in the subject-line.

The question is, of course, whether readers would actually check warnings threads like these. So please vote, and post to tell us what you think!


Wendy

I've checked the 'hate' option, although that is putting things a bit strongly.

As a courtesy, I would put warnings on a story for others, but I have to say that I don't like doing so. Equally, overall I think I'd prefer not to be warned about content in other people's stories.

So, yes, a WHAM thread sounds like a very good idea to me.

Chris

I think other applies to me. I may be out of the loop, but I'm not sure that there's such a problem with the current way of doing things that this is a necessary addition. It seems like an unneeded encumbrance to me.

But I could be entirely misreading the situation as, admittedly, I don't often visit the fanfic folder these days and so I'm not really up to speed with current trends. So, really, my opinion isn't worth much on this one.

There's also the matter of TOCs, as mentioned in one of the options. I don't mind updating/making TOCs for stories - but having to check WHAM warning threads and add them in - I'm not sure I'd have the necessary time for that addition to the workload. Although, I guess it would depend on how many stories it affected each week.


LabRat

Ah, but I can't see any reason why the WHAM warning would have to be added to the ToC, Rat - after all, that would kind of defeat the object. If there's a link to the WHAM warning thread in the ToC, then a reader who didn't want to be spoiled... would end up spoiled.

As to whether it's a problem or not, a few people did raise it as a kind of niggle in the previous poll thread. Readers and authors said they'd accepted the status quo because some readers needed it and they felt it was a small price to pay for courtesy to those readers - but they still wished there was another way around it which would please everyone.


Wendy

Excellent idea.

IMHO, this "wham thread" option accomodates both reader types.

Those among us who don't want to be spoilt by a warning can enjoy unbidden.

Those among us who prefer a warning can always check the thread before taking on a new story.

Just my thoughts,
Ankit

EDIT: Also, I think, if and when this policy is implemented, everyone should be informed via email or something one is bound to notice (if possible)...

I was referring to the first option in your poll, Wendy:

So..this isn't an option on the table, then?

LabRat

Ah! Sorry, I misunderstood! At the moment, some authors also put their WHAM warnings in the ToC, which is why I included that. If you look at the ToC for Yvonne's Clark Kent, This Is Your Life, you'll see the warning included there.

But with the proposal of a WHAM warning thread there would be no need for a WHAM warning to be included anywhere other than in the warning thread. Readers could check there to see whether a story they were about to start reading had a warning posted about it or not. So, again, readers who didn't want a warning wouldn't be spoiled by the ToC or the start of the story. In other words, no ToC would contain any mention of WHAM warnings.


Wendy

And, maybe the TOC folder can also have a copy of the wham warning thread STICKIE

Ah, I see. One of the few authors who does her own TOC these days. See? Out of the loop.

I think you've just hit the nail on the head of why I'm dubious about this one, Anks. Yes, it does suit the readers. But what about the authors? I think I'd find myself uncomfortable with a definite rule that says authors must provide warnings on their stories. Whether it's on the story itself or in a specific thread.

It's the idea of making this a fast and firm rule which authors must obey that's bothering me, I think. Rather than leaving it up to personal choice and the discretion of the author. There are authors who don't like providing warnings, as Wendy says in her introduction to the poll. But none of the options in the poll cater for this - i.e. "No, I don't want to have to post warnings - I want to make it my choice."

Actually, I think the real problem for me is that I just really don't believe in warnings. Period. They offend me deeply. <g>

I'm sure I'm in the minority on this one though - so you can safely ignore my rambling on it and work out a solution that best suits everyone else.

LabRat

Yeah, I think the reason some authors dislike the present convention, Rat, is that - like you - they don't like having to provide warnings or reassurances at all. But, over time, we've come to recognise that if we don't give WHAM warnings there'll be complaints.

For instance, when I posted For The Greater Good, I didn't want to include any comment about the way the story would turn out. But I knew very well that if I didn't offer a reassurance that Clark wouldn't die I'd lose lots of readers. So I included the reassurance - and was proved right by the number of readers who stated firmly that they wouldn't have read the story had I not provided that assurance. Likewise, just this last week when I started to post A Twist of Fates I had a specific question directed at me about the outcome I intended to offer - and I felt obliged to offer reassurance.

Likewise, I remember Lynn, when starting to post Haunting Eden, being pushed quite hard to be more specific about the general WHAM warning she'd decided voluntarily, out of courtesy, to include.

So, while these warnings are't mandatory, they seem to be expected, whether or not authors like the idea of giving spoilers for their stories. As Tank said in the other thread - quoting from a couple of separate posts here:


So I'm just wondering whether the idea of a separate warning thread might be a compromise wherein writers could still abide by convention but not give such a blatant spoiler. No-one is suggesting making it a firm rule, though! Posting a warning is and would remain voluntary - though, as Tank said, most of us do it, for the reasons he cites.


Wendy

I don't think that providing a thread to document wham warnings necessarily makes it mandatory for authors to post there. It still remains optional, so far as I can see.

Yvonne

I kind of like WHAM warnings when the authors post simply because I think of them as reading a book jacket or the back of a movie box. When I open up a James Patterson book, I like knowing beforehand, okay this one's about a serial killer, and this one's about bombing cities...etc.

I'm not so much a fan of the reassurance lines telling me that everything's going to get 'fixed' in the end. I think that's a bigger spoiler than anything else. The whole point of reading is to find out whether or not something's going to turn out the way I expect. Otherwise, if you tell me, for example, someone's getting shot in this story, but everything will be okay in the end...it kind of defeats the purpose of me reading it, other than just enjoying the author's writing style and characters. It's like watching the movie Titanic. The boat sinks.

That being said, I think a thread for WHAM warnings is fine.

JD

JD, for people like you, a reassurance ruins the story because you read to find out what happens. That reminds me of my husband, who feels cheated if someone tells him which team wins when he hasn't seen his videotape of the game yet.

OTOH, people like me read to find out how it happens. We're the ones who watch the videotape after we know who won because we want to find out how our team managed to snatch a win away from the other guys. But if I know we lost, I won't watch. I don't need to live through a depressing outcome--in a game or in a story.

However, knowing the outcome is good doesn't seem to stop me from being tense or frightened or heartbroken while I read through it, so I don't think authors should assume that a WHAM warning or a reassurance causes loss of suspense or dramatic impact for all readers. Maybe some of us stress over stories more than others do, and we need to know that things will eventually work out okay to bring the suspense down to a manageable level.

In any case, to accommodate readers like me who take depressing stories too much to heart as well as readers who feel that WHAM warnings or reassurances cause too much loss of suspense, a WHAM thread seems like a reasonable compromise.

Chris said it best for me.

A WHAM warning thread would a very good idea, Thanks for the idea, Wendy

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

Yes! A WHAM thread would be great. This would definitely get me reading installments again instead of waiting for the completed story at the archive. After several major disappointments I too stopped reading in the fanfic folder. My time is too precious to waste it on reading stories that make me go

I became a fan of a TV series that was witty and sassy and gave me a loving couple, slowly growing into friendship and true love. Something that is very rarely seen on screen these days. If I want promiscuity, beheadings and the likes I can tune in to a dozen series or just sit back and watch the news.

Personally, I don't mind reading death fics; depends on how well-written they are. Lois has to die sometime, so that is only a natural thing to happen. Or, the next encounter with Kryptonite can be fatal to Clark and Lois is left alone. Not a problem. It could happen. They can experience heartbreak e.g. stay childless, lose a child, whatever. As long as it's the normal disasters that can befall any other couple, I can take it.

I just don't want to read stories about our L&C universe where Lois is married to Luthor or Dan or Ching and Clark to Lana. I don't want to read stories where Lois beats her child to a pulp or AltClark commits suicide. Really, for me that is just one bridge too far.

Now, in an Elseworld, that's a different piece of cake. In an Elseworld I can stomach anything, as long as its a believable premise and the story is well written. Loises and Clarks in other Universes can marry Luthor, Lana and Scardino to their hearts content and have other professions too. I've read really great fics, full of Whams, doing just that and they are amongst my favorite stories.

As a writer, I can write whatever I want; as a reader, I must have the right to choose. That's why printed books have flaps and you can check the premise of a movie in your TV guide. Why deny FoLC that right? Some of us want to read only WAFFy, feel-good stories; others live for mayhem and disaster; some don't care about next-gen stories. So what? To each his/her own!

So, yes, please, give us saps a warning thread, please!

End of rant!

Ursie

It's interesting that a few people are comparing wham warnings to the blurb on book covers, because I never thought of them like that before. I can see where you're coming from; there are certainly parallels. However, I've always thought of a wham warning as a notice that bad or violent stuff is going to happen in this story, and that it will likely happen to one of the main characters. Book covers, on the other hand - and I've just checked a few at random from my bookshelves - appear to set the scene for the reader and pose a few unanswered questions to which you can only find the answers by reading the book. They're there as a teaser; as a sales tool, really. They don't, so far as I've seen, tell you specifically that a rape, murder, character death etc is going to happen.

I think the book cover parallel works best with writers' introductions; most of us give them, although we don't necessarily use them to set the scene for the reader. Often they're used to inject a personal note - why we wrote the story, for example, or to thank the people who assisted in the writing of the story.

Perhaps it would be nice to start a tradition of book cover style intros as well as wham warnings. Nothing obligatory, of course, although it's just occurred to me that the archive requires some sort of intro, so it's something most writers will have to do at some point anyway. What do people think?

Yvonne

I'm wondering if this dialog hasn't become somewhat of a 'tempest in a teapot'.

When I made mention of the board 'conventions' in the other thread it was mostly just to point out that there was more to consider in writing a story about altClark killing himself than just the character aspect of whether he could or not. There was also the consideration as to how such a story would be received. I never intended for it to become an issue in and of itself.

Like Labby I'm not a fan of warnings or labels because I see them as a form of censorship which is something I'm not generally for... but, as I also said, I can understand the desire for such and have become comfortable with wishes of the majority. And I do think that it is the wish of the majority.

I guess my real question is... is this really a big problem now?

Tank Endings were originally conceived as a joke. They were never intended to stand as the 'real' ending of a story (unless is was a short vignette designed to be 'evil fun'). They were merely a wink and a nod pause in a story put there to give the gentle reader a little tweak of the nose. Still, they engendered a great deal of negative responses from those who felt they spoiled their enjoyment of the story. So, the Tank Ending warnings were born.

But, nobody writes Tank Endings anymore. The concept has run it's course and don't seem to hold any interest for writers anymore, and that's fine. So, is this 'concern' over wham warnings a signal that there are suddenly some writers out there who want to explore darker themes? Is this just the beginning of another story fad?

Over the last year or so there have only been a handful of stories that have included wham warnings, and some of them probably didn't really need them. Are we looking at a sudden increase in stories that need warnings? As Wendy mentions, warnings aren't some hard and fast rule, but are merely an act of consideration for the general readership. I guess I have to wonder if the writers who have, or might wish to write stories to the left of 'happily ever after' really feel too constricted by the board conventions?

As a writer I don't necessarily like it idea of a pre-post warning on one of my stories, but one also has to 'know your audience'.

Truthfully I don't really care one way or the other whether or not a 'wham warning header' is brought into being or not. But is complicating the reading and writing process of fanfics by adding another step to the process needed? Maybe it is? I don't know how much work would be involved in such a move but I wouldn't want to burden some member of the board administration with creating something that would get very little use (ie: Tank Endings)

Tank (who probably should have spent this much time on a story rather than a response thread to a poll )

Tank, I have to say I agree with (most <G>) of what you say here.

Like you, I'm still less than sure that this is such a huge problem that it requires a solution. Of any kind. Rather than the status quo that's been working just fine up till now, far as I can tell.

I am a little sad to hear that authors feel constrained to provide warnings to avoid censure or 'complaints' from readers who want them. I know most of us want to make life easy for ourselves, but it just seems wrong somehow to be forced into it. And is it by a majority? I wonder about that too. I get the impression actually that the majority of readers don't care about warnings either way.

That said, thanks, Wendy, for the clarification that this wouldn't be mandatory. Bottom line, if we're talking here about a WHAM warning thread where authors who desire to warn readers can put a warning without feeling it's spoiling their story, then that's just fine and dandy with me. I probably wouldn't use it myself, but if it fills a need for other authors and readers, all to the good.

Any misgivings I'd have would be with making it a firm rule that it must be used. Since that doesn't seem to be what's being proposed here, I don't really have a problem with it.

I do wonder though...just as an philosophical aside...where do we draw the line here? I personally don't enjoy reading fanfic about Lois being pregnant or 'kid fic' - they just don't suit my tastes. Should we have a Pregnancy/Children warning thread to warn me that a story might contain these elements so that I can avoid them?

I'm sure there must be other examples.

I'm just tossing this out for debate, but really when you consider it, such a warning thread would be just as valid as one for WHAMs. So, where do you stop? Do we fill the mbs completely with warnings for everything under the sun?

Or do others believe that there is a fundamental difference that makes WHAMs somehow separate and distinct from all other genres? Perhaps there is and I'm just missing it here. I know that I would put a warning on a story if it had significantly violent content - I did that with my gothic fairy tale. Perhaps WHAMs fall under the same umbrella.

Just thinking aloud here. <g> And, as usual, playing Devil's Advocate and ending up answering my own questions. Maybe.

LabRat

Tank asks whether darker stories are becoming more or less common - I haven't done any real analysis of this but I do know that some authors I BR for or talk to are finding themselves increasingly drawn towards darker themes. And finding the need to provide a WHAM warning as a result.

Anyway, I'm inclined to suggest that we could give the idea of a thread a try. If people then don't use it, we simply unsticky it and return to the status quo.


Wendy

Sounds like a plan to me. Go for it.

LabRat

I'm glad. Many stories have lost their punch for me when I read a warning at the begining. I'm live on the wild side...no warnings for me.

Thank you!!!!

I think it is great for those who do want the warning too. A one stop warning shop.

If we have this WHAM warning thread, then does the WHAM warning get included in the full story when it's uploaded to the archive? I can see a reason to include it because some readers don't access these boards and won't see the WHAM warning thread. But then all readers who read off the archive instead of the boards will be forced to see the WHAM warning/spoiler. Personally, I don't care either way. I like stories with WHAMs in them and I used to hate the WHAM warnings/spoilers, but I've grown used to them and try to skip reading details about the warnings in the story intros.

Simba

The Archive and the mbs, although working nicely in conjunction with each other, are two entirely different and separate forums, Simba, so rules which apply on one don't necessarily follow on the other, and vice versa.

I'm not aware that there's any specific rule for warnings on the Archive - although I'd probably have to check over the FAQ to be positive.

Regardless, in my tenure as EIC of the Archive, I've generally adopted a 'leave it to the author' policy.

Generally, the only time I'd contact an author to request they think about putting a warning on their story would be if I'd had a complaint about the content. That happens very, very rarely though and it would still be approached on a case by case basis, rather than as a general fast and firm rule.

I can only specifically recall asking an author to include a warning prior to their story being uploaded, once, and that was with a story that was about the aftermath of 9/11, which was uploaded very shortly after the event, when emotions were still raw.

So, basically, since I'm all for letting the author make up their own minds on this one, that's generally the current policy on warnings as far as the Archive is concerned. If an author feels that they want to include a warning, that's fine. Equally it's fine if they prefer not to spoil their story in advance with one.

The only exception would be if the GE editing the story felt that it required a warning because there was, say, excessive violence in it or it dealt with a sensitive subject. In that case, the GE's opinion would over-rule the author's. If they couldn't agree, it would be referred back to me, and my decision either way on whether a warning should be included would be final. Again, I can't say we've had many incidences of that over the years, either.

So, mostly, for the Archive, it's a non-issue.

LabRat

Just catching up here ...

I like to know beforehand if the toys have been broken so I can avoid a story which will only be upsetting. (i'm one of the last fans of "Lois and Clark" on these boards I think ) and so I appeciate a warning, whether it's at the beginning of a fic or in a separate folder. I also like to see them in archive descriptors and i do appreciate an author who is up front with her readers.

I'm also one of those readers who appreciates deathfic warnings - RL is about death and I read L & C fic to escape. But that said, I'm ok with Clark's death in some circumstances - for example in Wendy's FTGG, it would have seemd very logical for it to have ended with Clark's death. But I would have wanted to know it's coming, not be surprised by it (as a reader, I'm not into suspense <g>) Still I can see that writers don't like to give away their endings.

However, I'm not at all comfortable with fics which kill Lois - who knows why. Perhaps because she's the physically weaker of the two and so more vulnerable -- it somehow seems like a cheap shot to beat up on her when Clark's physically almost invincible. But who knows?

So think the new warning folder is a good idea
c.

As a writer, I prefer not to put anything at the top of my story that gives any of it away, especially some story element that I've worked hard to make a surprise or have dramatic impact. However, out of respect for those who do like to avoid stories with WHAMs, I've accepted the need to include a "Story contains WHAMs" disclaimer.

Be that as it may, when it goes to offering up anything more than that - a "The toys will be fixed" or details on the specifics of the WHAM - then I truly do balk. If the reader knows that the ending will be happy, none of the intense emotions I wish to create will be met, IMO.

Therefore, I fully support Wendy's idea. For those who tend to shy away from emotionally intense stories, they can make a quick stop in the WHAMS Warning thread to see if the writer has issued a disclaimer, then determine if the story should be avoided. Perhaps incorporating Yvonne's idea would be an added service - a book-type blurb giving a brief story summary (without giving anything away) might offer readers a better idea about what to expect. Those of us who like to jump in blindly can just avoid that WHAM Warning thread altogether.

On the flip side, writers have to make a concerted effort to leave such a warning, and then I think we can feel guilt-free in WHAMming our little hearts out.

Lynn

As one one appreciates well written "emotionally intense" stories, I'd like to add that it's not that element that I'm personally looking to see identified in a WHAM warning thread but rather a more specific warning that the toys have been broken.

A WHAM fic may or may not be emotionally intense. One of the most emotionally intense fics I've read is Chris's wonderful A Gift from Shetland but I wouldn't describe it as a WHAM fic at all. It occurs to me now that we seem to have different understandings of what constitutes a WHAM

c

Oh, I don't think so, Carol. I think there are currently 1143 of us. Either that or there are one heck of a lot of people hanging out here for nothing and wasting their time.

Some of us may enjoy different genres of fanfic to others, but that doesn't make us any the less fans of the show or of the romance or of the characters than anyone else.

LabRat

It might make an interesting poll, Labrat, It's been almost 8 years since the show ended. As well, there are many people who have joined the boards since that time who are also fans of Smallville. Given the blurring of time and also SV's radically different characterization of Clark Kent, I think there has been a morphing of the two characterizations for many people.

c

Speaking as one who has never even seen an episode of Smallville, Carol, and who knows she's not alone, that really does seem like something of an exaggeration.

Seriously, there have always been stories which seem 'in character' and others which seem 'out of character' to individual readers; a far smaller number will seem out of character to more than one reader. I don't think the arrival of Smallville has changed much in that respect - I've been reading fanfic since around about the end of Season 2 (1995?) and, actually, it's my impression that the quality of fanfic, including characterisation, plot development, structure, style and use of language, has overall improved since then - of course, the arrival of authors such as LabRat, Yvonne, you yourself, Nan, CC, Lynn, ML, Tank and many more have helped there.


Wendy

I agree with most of what you've written, Wendy.

But who knows why people do join the mbs? I don't think you can completely dismiss the Smallville influence, however. I would guess, too, that some members have joined because they're Superman fans, as distinct from L & C fans, and belong to various Superman boards as well (am assuming those boards are out here . Also, it may be that some join simply because they're Clark Kent fans (as distinct from Lois Lane and Clark Kent fans:) )

All this is inevitable, of course, especially as we move away in time from the the show for which these boards are named.

I didn't mention fanfic, which you've raised, let alone its quality, but that too could be a reason for joining. Now, I can't speak to that becuase I'm not a member (let alone read ) other fanfom fics and so I can't speak to the calibre of what is posted here. But I have noticed a few posters comment on the care which is taken here with our fics. So the quality of the fanfic (as opposed to its specific L & C: TNAoS charcteristics) may be a motivator too.

I'll add too that some may have joined because they're fan-video fans. There are some very good ones here.

c

This is undoubtedly true. Equally true, however, is that some will obviously be pure LNC fans. You can't dismiss all 1143 of them by the above criteria, Carol.

Actually, I'd imagine that the majority will be pure LNC fans, if the evidence of the mbs is anything to go by. We're primarily a forum about LNC fanfic - that takes up the biggest chunk of posts. Given the amount of comments posted to such fanfic, I doubt pure LNC fans are in the minority among members, since the fanfic deals primarily with the characterisations of TNAOS:LAC. Not Smallville. Not Superman the comics. Not Superman the movies. And so on.

But, yes, a poll might be interesting. Although I don't think it would provide evidence of your conclusion that you are the only LNC fan hanging out on these mbs. But it might be interesting, nevertheless, to see what primary Superman source or interest members have. Sounds like fun.


LabRat

In fact, I didn't do so, Labrat.

c

Okay... I'm a bit puzzled. I've been part of the Lois and Clark fandom for 8 years now. I've been a fan of Lois and Clark for a good 10 years.

My main interests are Lois and Clark fanfic, Lois and Clark fanfic trailers and Lois and Clark music videos. Fanfic, trailers and music videos are activities that all derive from the TV show Lois and Clark.

If it wasn't about Lois and Clark, I wouldn't be interested. I don't read (let alone write) Smallville fanfic, make trailers for Ally McBeal stories, or watch Star Trek music videos, but if I did (after all, none of us signed an exclusivity contract with Lois and Clark ), I'd post them where they belong, in their own fandom.

Anyway, the only reason why I care about the activities described above is because they are about Lois and Clark. I thought that made me without a shadow of a doubt a fan of Lois and Clark.

Seriously, why would anyone join these boards, write fanfic, make videos, if they don't care about *this* TV show and its characters? Makes no sense to me. The internet is a fairly big place, and there are fandoms for pretty much every single TV show out there. There's no way somebody who doesn't care about Lois and Clark (the Dean Cain and Teri Hatcher incarnation) would stick to this place when they could find a fandom that would suit *their* primary interest. We're not the centre of the universe.

Kaethel

Oh. So that was just me, then?