Kerry has conceded! He just raised several points in my opinion.

James , who hopes this doesn't get me in trouble

Yes, James, that was a nice surprise. I was worried they'd try to drag the process through the mud again. But Kerry showed enough class to accept the results gracefully. I'm sure it wasn't easy for him.

But at least Kerry still has a Senate seat -- Edwards is now unemployed and NC has two Republican Senators.

PJ

Great. 4 more years of fear, fear, and more fear. Great choice, fellow Americans. I am moving to Canada. At least Dennis Kucinich kept his seat in congress as did Stephanie Tubbs Jones. And as much as I wanted a democrat to win Ohio senator, George Voinavich is probably our best republican choice -- any Republican who could have been mayor of Cleveland has to be middle of the road on most major issues that directly affect us (i.e. balanced budget, jobs, etc.).

- Laura (who has so much more to say about the intelligence level of Americans, Iraq and terrorists and Bush, but will refrain)

I'd like to step in and issue a warning. It's fine to celebrate that your candiate has won but please keep in mind where there's a winner there is also a loser.

I hate to be the downer, but we've had some political 'dicussions' before and they never end well.

I won't stop this thread ... yet. However, keep in mind the minute it get's out of hand, this will be shut down with NO WARNING or with NO QUESTIONS ASKED.

Party on.

Oh, a major ditto! As close as this election got during the end, I thought it was going to be even closer...hair pulling, recounts, ficuses being thrown out windows.

I'm just a little disappointed Kerry lost (my mother would kill me in my sleep for that), but really, I liked both candidates; each supported some issues for me.

JD
who's glad all this is finally wrapping up!

I'm listening to Kerry's concession speech now, and I have to admit I'm impressed. Very statesmanlike, and I've never liked him more.

PJ

Well, there is a silver lining ...

At least now Bush has to clean up his own mess in Iraq. I didn't envy Kerry having to inherit that nightmare.

And since Dick Cheney certainly won't be running in 2008, we might have the opportunity to get some decent candidates in office in four years. John McCain (be still my heart!) vs. John Edwards (ditto!), anyone? <g>

I suppose it's too much to hope that Hillary Clinton would run, but I can dream.

Kathy

My husband and I were trying to wonder at the possibility of a Clinton/Obama ticket in 2008. It'd be a long shot, but I'd be on board.

Lynn

GRIN GRIN GRIN GRIN GRIN YAHOOOO!!! GRIN GRIN GRIN


TEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEJ<who's gonna be able to sleep wonderfully tonight>

I personally would be really surprised if Hillary *doesn't* run in 2008. Should be fun

PJ

I STRONGLY suggest that the moderator lock out this thread now. Before emotions can get heightened and things are said in the heat of the moment. Things that we may deeply believe but will serve no purpose as a topic for debate here.

This was a very divisive election. Nowhere in the recent past has there been such a polarity of stances on the issues.

Personally I'm deeply disappointed in the results of the election and am very worried about the next four years. But this is not the place to vent those concerns.

Tank (who won't revisit this thread because he doesn't want his impressions of the people he knows in this fandom to be colored by political opinions that he can't understand)

There has been some moderator discussion about this already, Tank. It's been generally agreed to leave things open for now, but keep an eye out. It's a policy that's served us well before with similarly dangerous threads.

Personally, I don't like closing threads. I prefer to leave people freedom, where possible. So far, we've kept things civil, despite strong feelings on both sides. I hope we can continue to do so.

The mods will be watching this thread and any similar threads very closely, but for now, I think we're going to trust that FoLCs can remain polite despite their differences.

Please be considerate of the feelings of others here. Above all, we're FoLCs. Some of us are very happy about what happened. Some of us are angry or scared or depressed or some combination of the above. Obviously, being too expressive on either side -- happy or upset -- is going to hurt, perhaps even offend, the others. Please keep that in mind. In the end, I think what's most important here is that, whatever else we are, we're friends.

Paul

Same here, Jen.

Above all, I'm really glad that the election wasn't drawn out like in 2000. I thought it was very noble of Kerry to concede Ohio and gracefully bow out. I think a lot of people (on both sides) were disenfranchised by the litigation last time and I'm glad to see that both Bush and Kerry ran a much cleaner campaign this time around.

As for next time, I'm hoping for a Clinton v Giuliani or McCain race.

~Anna

I'm severely unhappy about the situation. I have my reasons that I've been spouting for months, but when it all came down to it, I felt so awfully alone this morning, even though 48% of the country or whatever was feeling the same way.

Just full of sadness, fear, and disappointment.

Ohh, I stopped by and visited the folks' tonight. Dad is so convinced that it's going to be Hilary vs. argh I can't remember the name...it reminded me of Frisk? in '08. Anyway, I'm already looking forward to that election and the debates.

JD

As an outsider, I've been reading both the election threads with great interest - the results of this election campaign are so important beyond the borders of the U.S.

Not from where I was watching, sadly - some of the most negative campaign adds and extravagant distortions of opposing opinions I've ever seen.

I've been heartened though by the respect shown here by most of the posters for the 'other side'.

cc m

I'm guessing he means Bill Frist, who's the majority leader in the Senate (I think ). I don't know who might show up on the Republican side; it'll be a pretty wide open field. I'd love to see Condoleeza Rice running...

PJ

Actually, I heard yesterday on some post election coverage on ABC that Hillary is the top seated Democratic forerunner for 2008. More than likely she will run. And dare I say, she might just win, too! I think it's been her intention from the time Bill left office to be placed in this exact position. She just needed to show that she was capable of service to the people and many feel she's doing that in NY.

SQD (who was not surprised by the outcome this year)

I heard yesterday that the bookies have already tagged Hillary as the favourite to win in 2008.

Interestingly though, I saw the last couple of minutes of a news debate this morning over breakfast and both of the guests - Americans, but no idea who they were or what qualified them to have an expert opinion - said that they seriously doubted Hillary would be chosen for the Democrats as she would be 'too divisive'. I wasn't sure if they meant for the Democrats or for the country as a whole. These two seemed to be on opposite sides of the fence - Republican and Democrat? - but in total agreement on that one issue. Anyone? As an outsider who hasn't been paying attention, I'm not sure why she would be any more divisive than anyone else. Naming no names. <g>

Oh, and talking of ad campaigns - I was absolutely gobsmacked in the weeks leading up to the vote while watching a news show which stated that in Las Vegas alone something like 700+ ads for both parties (1,400+ total) were shown in one week there. Holy Mother of Pearl! And over here we think having to listen to a party political broadcast once in a blue moon is boring!


LabRat

Labrat, I'm guessing that what those commentators meant was that she carries too much baggage from her husband's term in office. People seemed to either love her or hate her, without a whole lot of middle ground. She also has been labeled as being extremely far to the left with her politics, but if you look at her record in the Senate so far, she's actually relatively moderate. I think she's surprised a lot of people with how well she's done as a Senator, that she's been willing to work with Republicans and such on getting bills passed.

But I do think she might have a tough time getting the nomination, not because Democrats wouldn't vote for her in the primary but because the party might feel that she wouldn't have the best chance of winning the overall election. (That was actually always my concern with Kerry -- I think Bush could have been defeated, but Kerry was not the one who could do it.)

Four years is a long time away, though; who knows what might happen between now and then. A solid eight years in the Senate could give Hillary a record that would sell well with the public.

Kathy

Commentators! That was the word I was looking for earlier! <g>

And, thanks, Kathy - I see. I wonder then if she's missed the boat. I think there was a point where she had the sympathy vote, wasn't there? At least, I kind of got that impression. But that's long gone, I think. Lost an advantage there.

And I agree absolutely about Kerry. I deplore the modern political trend which says you can only be voted into office if you look good and have a charismatic speaking personality. Which isn't a trait only held by Americans. Makes you wonder how many great leaders we would have missed out on if that had held true centuries back. :rolleyes: But, it's a sad truth of today's world and I guess you have to pander to the superficiality of it...or you get nowhere.

LabRat

Oh, I think we're a little more discerning than that. I love Dubya, but he's not especially handsome and while he has his moments, he's not a great speaker And don't get me started on the debates... :rolleyes:

And if a sparkling personality was required, Al Gore would never have gotten as far as he did...

For what it's worth, on the conservative side of punditry, it's been assumed for years that Hillary intends to run -- actually, there was speculation for a while that the Clintons were actually hoping Kerry would lose, or even subtly sabotaging the campaign, so Hillary would have a clearer shot at 2008. They think a lot of her votes have been a conscious effort to build her image. But what do they know?

PJ

I think 'they' are onto something. The timing of Bill Clinton's life saving bypass surgery was just a little too convenient to my way of thinking. The campaign gets hot and where is he? Out lending a hand? Rallying the base? Nooooo! He's in the hospital. "Recovering."

Whatever that means.

And, really, if you look, you can see the hand of Hillary in it. She was the one who just stood there and watched him eat all those cheeseburgers.

Diabolical.

(Ok. I'm just playing. That was too juicy to resist.)

Actually, read a really interesting article today proposing the ideal candidate for the Dems to run in '08 was...Gore. Was quite surprised and intrigued by that idea.

I do have my eye on Obama, though. I think he's our future rockstar.

CC

I just found this out.

No matter how I feel about their politics, the Edwards need our prayers.

Edwards\' Wife Has Breast Cancer

James

Despite my own disappointment at Kerry's loss, you have to wonder if the loss is actually a blessing in disguise for the Edwards. Say what you will, but the stress of going from the campaign trail to the V.P. position and dealing with breast cancer would be a lot to deal with at once.

Other than that, I'm being quiet about politics. The rest of the my life is spent analyzing politics and current events. This is one of the few places I have to escape that sometimes depressing reality, and I'd like to keep it that way.

Cheers,
Elle

Uh-uh.

Clinton is fiercely hated and running her just insures that El Smirk's brother Jeb get's a shot at the White House.

Also, Obama would be in the middle of his first term as a US Senator. Way too soon for him - try more 2016 or 2020.

Four more years of Shrub...gah.

Check this site out: www.sorryeverybody.com

Warning: Some Bush supporters may not like the site, although the site is only expressing the feelings of 48% of US voting population. There is nothing ridiculing Bush last time I checked.

Simba

Well, 48% are unhappy but 51% are happy. I guess its just not 51% of the L&C community.

I also appreciated John Kerry's speech and hope that the democrats can meet the President half way. We are still one country, inspite of the recent rumor I heard that North wishes the South would cecede

I also don't think Hilary can get the nomination. With Iowa, and So. Carolina (I think, or was it No. Carolina) being so early on the primary ballots, it would be an uphill battle for the nomination. However, it would be interesting. I think that the USA is still not ready for a woman president, IMHO. Would the democrats take that risk? It would be brave.

I appreciate the PTB letting this thread exist and hope everyone will remain considerate of others and their views.

It depends on who the Republicans pick for the nominee.

I'd rather see John Edwards get the Democratic nomination. And no, I didn't vote for Bush because I'm worried about the quality of jobs in the US.

If all the jobs that we gain end up being Walmart and McDonald's jobs, what are those of us with college degrees supposed to do for a living? Go to India? My dream was to work in IT, but I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon. How can I get experience in IT if all the entry-level grunt work is being shipped overseas? I have a year or so of experience doing web development. Two years if you count volunteering. I was laid off from my dream job doing Cold Fusion web development two years ago. During that time I've had to temp and do boring administrative work.

My dad went to India this summer because the company he works for is outsourcing mechanical engineers. Not software engineers, but regular engineers -- drafters and such. My boss went there because our company is outsourcing customer service.

And I'm still a perma-temp because my company has a hiring freeze that will probably last until the end of the year. My boss wants to hire me permanently, but he can't get HR to approve it. While there have been some jobs posted in the want ads locally, they are still mostly temporary jobs. Yeah, the US added some jobs in October, but a lot of them were minimum-wage jobs.

I hope that Bush will remove the incentive for companies to outsource jobs. The fact that it's only starting to really recover from 9/11 now doesn't speak that well for our president.

Simba, I haven't been able to get that page to open, I guess its servers are busy -- I saw some of the pictures, though, on another site, with captions. Of course, Kerry supporters might not like that one...
[edit -- link removed for over-snarkiness]

That minority of us who are disgustingly happy are trying to restrain our glee in public

As for early primaries, I assure you it's *not* North Carolina; we're one of the last states to vote in the primaries, so by the time it gets to us, there isn't any meaningful choice anymore. Help, I'm being disenfranchised! Now we see the violence inherent in the system...

PJ
who is feeling good
for those few who don't get it, that last line or two was a joke

I'm trying really hard not to overreact here, but I don't see why anyone would like that site, Kerry supporters or not. "We don't agree with you, so let's pass nasty judgments on your physical appearance and whether or not you're worth having sex with." That's mature... And this is supposed to convince people to come around to their way of thinking?

Kaylle

I supported Kerry and I don't like that web site. Everyone who is eligible to vote has the right to vote for whoever they want to in the US. Let's get the election behind us and work towards a better future, rather than contributing to the political divide.

Sorry about that, guys. CC has made me see the errors of my ways, and... nope, sorry, CC, not even for you will I volunteer to go door to door for Hillary <g>

I did get carried away a little, though, and I apologize for all ill-feelings that resulted. Thanks for being bigger human beings than me and not flaming back.

On a (hopefully) funnier note -- you may want to check out "20 reasons not to post your picture on the Internet." It's totally non-political, and should provide a few laughs.

PJ

Of course I didn't mean right away, Pam. I still have to get TEEEJ on board!

CC

If you're still reading the political news, you're seeing AP articles like these: and On a personal note: my son, a college student, received a message on his cell phone that told him he could call a particular number to get the address of where he was to vote. Although he'd voted in the primary and knew exactly where he was to vote, since he'd heard that ballots cast at the wrong location would not be accepted and counted he called the number to check if the data he would have been given was correct. It wasn't.

I can't address the AP articles, but I have made a formal complaint about the intentional misinformation.

Yes, I've heard some of those stories, too -- my grandmother's area had people calling seniors telling them they couldn't vote... and I'm not a bit surprised to hear about problems with new electronic voting machines, either. That kinda stuff happens, I suppose, but it's a disgrace, no matter which side is doing it.

Hope you get some results from your complaint, Ethnica!

PJ

That's a scream, Pam! Thanks!

I just saw a page with exit poll results - it makes interesting reading.
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/155/story_15546_1.html

Mere

Yes, exit polls are interesting to browse. There are more available at CNN.com. They have the national polls and you can also get state-by-state results and polls off their US Presidential Election Homepage.

I was looking throught the polls last night. As you say, a very interesting read.

Paul

The thing that frustrates me about those sorts of polls is that (like our own poll section) the multiple-choice questions never contain all the choices. Or leave them very undefined, anyway.

[rant]Pundits will be weeks talking about what "moral values" means... and I'm not sure they'll ever sort it out because I strongly suspect it means different things to different people. Is it gay marriage, abortion, prayer in schools...? Those overlap a lot, of course, but we don't know by how much, or which are more important, since that's not part of the question.

I'm signed up with a polling company (thanks, Wendy! ? What if the pollsters assume I want to be a good little citizen of the UN and am just woefully uninformed? [/rant]

I guess I don't have a point here <g> and don't intend to argue any of those issues... I'm just frustrated about certain poll questions, and therefore, I'm skeptical of poll results.

PJ

And, Pam, there are people who disagree with you on everything you just ranted about. Ex. War on Terror and War in Iraq are distinctly different issues to some people because we don't believe the war in Iraq was at all motivated by terrorism. (and others think the US is handling just about all issues equally badly).

Laura (signed up with the same polling company thanks to Wendy )

Yes, Laura, exactly. There's such a wide disagreement over pretty much everything that it's probably impossible for polls to sum things up concisely.

You're signed up for that polling co., are you? You must be the one who's been cancelling out my answers!

PJ

Ok, Wendy, Pam, or Laura,

Where is this polling place/site and how do I get there?

James

James, it's here: http://www.yougov.com You have to sign up, but it's quick and free -- they say they'll pay you for surveys, and I suppose they do, but it's only about a dollar a survey, and they won't send anything out until they owe you $50. At the rate I'm going, I might give myself a nice little birthday present, next April... <g>

PJ

But...this seems pointed at the other side of the ocean...Am I confused?

James

There is an American version -- yougovamerica.com.

And, Pam, yes I am sure I am the one who cancels out every one of your votes . I bet my answers are polar opposites from yours in every single category. Political, social, religious, etc .


- Laura

The truth for me was I really want someone else to ran. Bush I thought was to off on jobs but Kerry had good points and if it had been anyone but him making them I would have wanted that person to win. My problem with Kerry was he was always changing his mind. He never stuck with anything.

But I have to say I really respected Kerry for not dragging us through another 2000 which was a nightmare. I truely believe the Kerry wanted what is best for the USA but the problem is like with me and the rest of us what we think is Best for the USA sometimes doesn't match what Rep/Dem think is.

And my Prayers on with the Edwards family in this time of trouble.

P.S. Something my Mom said right after the last debate. How can they say who won a debate because it's not who wins but who you agree with that your going to vote for.