Lois & Clark Forums
Posted By: ShayneT Comments: Veritas 38 - 06/12/08 07:27 PM
Well, what do you think?
Posted By: Framework4 Re: Comments: Veritas 38 - 06/12/08 08:01 PM
clap clap
Delightful.
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He wasn’t going to be able to save everyone. ... How was he going to decide who was going to live and who was going to die?.... The man looked him in the eye and said, “Let’s start with the school. The parents would want it that way.”
Nicely played. Well done.
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Repairing roads when he should be digging people out of the rubble was counterintuitive, but Clark understood the reasoning behind it....With the roads open, twenty thousand soldiers were going to converge on the area. They’d be able to provide supply lines and services far in excess of what he’d be able to do alone.
Nice reasoning. This Clark is getting trained how to be the most effective Superman he can be.
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“He’s taking orders from the People’s Liberation Army in China,” Agent White said.

“It’s probably the most efficient way to coordinate the rescue efforts,” Lois said. “They know where to send him.”....Lois stared at Agent White, and despite his expression, she didn’t look away.
Well spoken. I'm liking your Lois more and more.
Posted By: BJ Re: Comments: Veritas 38 - 06/12/08 09:09 PM
Nice chapter, Shayne.
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As it turned out, there was nothing at all wrong with her pepper spray.
I love the way you brought us back to the pepper spray from the beginning of the story. clap Way to go, Lois! Hey, agent Randall has been asking for it since the beginning, too.

Loved it that Lois didn't back down against Agent White, either. It's not everyone that can stick up for themselves and their beliefs against that kind of authority and power.
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“It’s an embarrassment to the country.”

“Maybe the embarrassment is how the country is treating these people.” Lois stared at Agent White, and despite his expression, she didn’t look away.
Embarrassed when their actions are exposed as shameful - sort of like acting repentant only when caught in the sin. Interesting that Agent White and the government expect Lois to control Superman, like he's her creation or her puppet.

Oh, the scenes of the earthquake are so sad. I'm glad that Clark is able to find strength from the people around him. That he isn't only leaning on Lois to learn how to be a hero is a good thing. It'll make him stronger when he goes back home to face his own people (and Lana).

Brenda
Posted By: DebbieG Re: Comments: Veritas 38 - 06/12/08 09:27 PM
Shayne, you've done a great job of portraying the situation in China and the people involved. Everyone put asides other issues to focus on what's important: saving lives. Clark shows not just his strength but his strength of character.

And on the other hand we have...
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“It’s an embarrassment to the country.”
Once again, no good deed goes unpunished. It seems politics trumps people's lives in certain circles. This made me think of the response to Hurricane Katrina.
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“Maybe the embarrassment is how the country is treating these people.” Lois stared at Agent White, and despite his expression, she didn’t look away.
Lois shows what she's made of, too.

I would love to hear some of what the news media — and the man on the street — are saying about Clark. It's a good thing he did the interview before the China situation arose. He showed people what makes him tick, and they'll understand why he's doing what he's doing.
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How was he going to live with the guilt of his failures?
I hope Mother Nature gives Clark a break soon... frown Typhoons, tornados, earthquakes: he needs some rest.
Posted By: IolantheAlias Re: Comments: Veritas 38 - 06/12/08 10:36 PM
Oh Shayne, you've once again made my day by posting a chapter!

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The last call had been more than an hour ago, and he could tell from the tone of it that his superiors’ attitudes were changing. Doubtlessly they were seeing the live news footage and they were seeing what he was.

They needed the stranger for as long as they could keep him.

******************************

“He’s taking orders from the People’s Liberation Army in China,” Agent White said.

“It’s probably the most efficient way to coordinate the rescue efforts,” Lois said. “They know where to send him.”

“They’ve apparently seen your interview. They’ve made an offer of asylum for him and any of the other passengers who want it.”
He's got the Chinese on board. They recognize that by his actions, Clark is the real Superman. Also, it goes to show that Superman is world-wide. Maybe he was raised in America, but he helps the Earth. All of it.

You know, that's one of the sad bits of this story. Back in the day, America was looked up to, and admired, by the world. We were the shining city on a hill. Now, our reputation is tarnished, our ideals in tatters. This story shows clearly what America has sunk to. (Sorry for ranting. I'm passionate about this.)

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He squinted, and a moment later he glanced quickly at his aide. It wouldn’t do to admit what he thought he was seeing. Being thought to be mentally unstable would hurt his career.
LOL! I always get a kick out of people's reactions when they see the real Superman for the first time.


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Still, the story had gotten out, and combined with the increasing weight of evidence in the form of more and more news from the Chinese, interviewers were beginning to take Clark more seriously.
Yay! The biggest hurdle overcome. The story is out, the cat can't be put back in the bag. I'm only sorry that our own government is being such a bunch of weenies about it. They're acting like spoiled kids. I'm glad to see Clark's strategy is working.

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“I thought you were going to keep your boy under control,” Agent White said, his voice tight with controlled anger.
Wow, is that condescending. Firstly, Clark is nobody's "boy". In fact, that term is extremely derogatory in some circles.

Secondly, is Agent White implying that Lois and he had some sort of deal? She keeps "her boy under control" and he does - what?

If there is some implied deal, Lois isn't getting much out of it. She got out of federal custody only because Susan performed lawyer magic. I guess the unfreezing of the bank accounts is a first step. (I'll grudgingly admit that. But government agents have still caused Lois some major hassle.)

So all the advantage of the deal (if one exists) has been on Agent White's side, so far. Now the worm is turning and Agent White doesn't like it. Glad to see that Lois hasn't fallen for unspoken threats and influence and not-so-subtle pressure that Agent White has been purveying.

I'm really glad to see Agent Randal get his comeuppance. (I can't help but wonder who or what his political connections are.... please don't answer that as the speculation is more fun than the reality.)

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“Maybe the embarrassment is how the country is treating these people.” Lois stared at Agent White, and despite his expression, she didn’t look away.
Go, Shayne & Lois, tell it like it is!

The scary thing is the truth of this statement: We get the government we deserve.

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How was he going to live with the guilt of his failures?

He felt Colonel Kwan’s hand on his shoulder. He glanced up at the older man, who was looking at him with an expression of sympathy.

From his expression, Clark could see that Colonel Kwan had faced this sort of decision before, although probably not on this scale. The man looked him in the eye and said, “Let’s start with the school. The parents would want it that way.”
This is so moving. With only a few words, you've created a poignant drama. You've also made Colonel Kwan come alive. If he has faced that sort of decision before, what were the circumstances surrounding it? Was it large-scale, like Clark is facing now, or was it just leaving one man to die while other troops escaped? I guess we'll never know.


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Clark felt the breath rush back into his body as the world snapped back into focus. Suddenly it all seemed very clear.

It didn’t matter who he saved as long as he saved as many as he could. He’d already learned a great deal about shifting rubble in his work on the other schools and he wasn’t as afraid of causing collapses as he had been before.

He moved forward, his body suddenly a blur. He’d be faster this time; he had to be.

People were depending on him.
He is Superman. You've chronicled his growth from Clark Kent, hider in the shadows, to Superman, saver of lives, overt user of his Kryptonian powers, helper of millions.

Now to see Lois become the Lois we know and love...she's already there, professionally. But can she become the one who loves Clark, the half of the pair who are destined to be together? You've already touched on that in the last chapter. They just need some time together now.

It's great to see Superman using his powers all over the world. Although it's been 30+ chapters for us, it's been, what? a week or so in story time? Things are happening right and left. The only thing I'm worried about is that Clark has been so extremely busy. Will he be drained when the times comes to speak with our government? And will Lois ever get her sleep? She needs to be at full throttle.

I hope that the politicos don't kidnap Lois and force Clark to use extreme measures to break her out - it would be hard to negotiate then. Unfortunately, with the rigidity and fear shown by members of our government, I can easily see this situation escalating to a mutual unhappy ending. Pray that cooler heads prevail.

Already, Clark's strategy is eliciting responses from other governments (e.g., the Chinese and their offer of asylum). Soon our government will be forced to act in some public manner.

Please, Shayne, continue with your wonderful story. I look forward (eagerly!) to every chapter, and hope that there are many more chapters to come. Please post more soon.
Posted By: Cornelia Re: Comments: Veritas 38 - 06/13/08 12:27 PM
Great chapter! clap

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“I don’t know why you keep using him if you know he has a personal problem with me,” Lois said. “Wouldn’t it be smarter to reassign him someplace else, like the artic?”
“Agent Randal had political connections,” Agent White said, “Ones I can’t ignore.”
I don´t know how high up Randal´s political connections are, but if he keeps this kind of work on, they will not save him from landing behind a desk somewhere in a arctic village! (I hope so...)

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“They’ve apparently seen your interview. They’ve made an offer of asylum for him and any of the other passengers who want it.”
“I doubt any of them would be tempted,” Lois said, “Unless they were from China on their own world.”
“It’s an embarrassment to the country.”
“Maybe the embarrassment is how the country is treating these people.” Lois stared at Agent White, and despite his expression, she didn’t look away.
The pressure was already beginning.
Oh yes, pressure - but on whom? Now the media can quote Clark directly, and I don´t think Lois gave them anything which could be misunderstood. The media and the government can´t pin anything evil on him. Taking orders from an Chinese army officer? In a rescuing situation? Oh, come on, Agent White! Clark is no US official or soldier, he is Superman! Clark may be an US citizen, but Superman is a world citizen with US heritage. He is always neutral and doesn´t take sides, so he can work everywhere and there are no reservations toward him. Does the US government really think they can lay some claim on him? Based on what? Blackmailing him regarding the passengers? This will sound nice on TV! And Clark will talk on TV about it, no way he is going to sign a nondisclosure agreement!
And by the way: I hope, in the interview Clark also talks about the reasons why he has to go back to his universe. Preventing 9/11 in his world will be understood everywhere!

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They were heading for Beichuan, a city of 160,000 people that was going to be difficult to reach even with Clark’s help.
It was a scene of horror, reminding Clark of scenes he’d seen of the Nagasaki explosion.
It seems I got the name of the city wrong in my last review. You are right, it was Beichuan. And my impressions were the same as yours - Nagasaki, absolutely horrible.

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With his special hearing, Clark should have heard the heartbeats of tens of thousands of people. Instead all he heard was the sound of less than two thousand heartbeats, scattered throughout the rocky landscape. Those heartbeats he did hear were muffled and strained. Some were already slowing and stuttering to a halt.
This is heartbreaking! Great work, Shayne!

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Clark felt frozen, paralyzed with indecision. It was as though the entire world was slowing around him.
He wasn’t going to be able to save everyone. The realization of that felt like a lead weight in his stomach. How was he going to decide who was going to live and who was going to die?
How was he going to live with the guilt of his failures?
No shiny comic book Superman, but a very real character with very real feelings and fears!

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Clark felt the breath rush back into his body as the world snapped back into focus. Suddenly it all seemed very clear.
He moved forward, his body suddenly a blur. He’d be faster this time; he had to be.
People were depending on him.
He is learning quickly. And more and more growing into the suit!

And how long can Clark keep going without sleep? Even he has to sleep sometimes. And where will Agent White take Lois? He has to know by now that Susan will get her out in no time. Perhaps it´s about negotiations now? With whom? It´s really getting political, and this will be very interesting to watch!

Next chapter? *looks hopefully in Shayne´s direction*
Posted By: woody Re: Comments: Veritas 38 - 06/13/08 05:13 PM
Shayne, wonderful story. I've been following it closely, because of it's unique angle and your excellent writing. Also, this story is so unpredictable. Some others I can guess where they are going and am interested in the way the author will get there. This one, I want to see how you get wherever you're going and learn your destination as well.

Cornelia, ACLU stands for American Civil Liberties Union, and its a Union of Lawyers that deal specifically with cases dealing in civil rights, especially where they believe citizens' rights have been infringed.
Posted By: TOC Re: Comments: Veritas 38 - 06/13/08 10:45 PM
I have been insanely busy, and I still am, so I'm late to the party. But this was another wonderful part. Since I feel I have so little time, I won't quote much, but I have read through the other responses and I heartily agree with everything that has been said.

For myself, I want to point out two things. First, that it is amazing how you make us be with Clark when he performs his super stuff. You make us understand his decisions and see how he actually does what he does - I loved how he built that road. And you make us feel his despair, and then, you make us feel his determination once again. I loved this:

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He glanced back at the rescuers filing slowly out of the truck. Their expressions reflected his own horror, and for a moment Clark wanted to do nothing more than run.

It was overwhelming and he had no idea where to start. Every person he chose to save meant he wasn't saving someone else.

Clark felt frozen, paralyzed with indecision. It was as though the entire world was slowing around him.

He wasn't going to be able to save everyone. The realization of that felt like a lead weight in his stomach. How was he going to decide who was going to live and who was going to die?

How was he going to live with the guilt of his failures?

He felt Colonel Kwan's hand on his shoulder. He glanced up at the older man, who was looking at him with an expression of sympathy.

From his expression, Clark could see that Colonel Kwan had faced this sort of decision before, although probably not on this scale. The man looked him in the eye and said, “Let's start with the school. The parents would want it that way.”

Clark felt the breath rush back into his body as the world snapped back into focus. Suddenly it all seemed very clear.

It didn't matter who he saved as long as he saved as many as he could. He'd already learned a great deal about shifting rubble in his work on the other schools and he wasn't as afraid of causing collapses as he had been before.

He moved forward, his body suddenly a blur. He'd be faster this time; he had to be.

People were depending on him.
Sorry about the long quote, but it is brilliantly, exquisitely written. One sentence leads compellingly to the other, and when you are done you have transformed Clark from a horrified newbie who just knows that people are going to die, into a magnificent hero who knows that he is going to have to save as many people as he possibly can.

But for me, who grew up during the height of the Cold War, this quote is the most amazing one, the one I can't stop thinking about:

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“I thought you were going to keep your boy under control,” Agent White said, his voice tight with controlled anger.

“Clark?” Lois said. “The interview was my idea.”

“He's taking orders from the People's Liberation Army in China,” Agent White said.

“It's probably the most efficient way to coordinate the rescue efforts,” Lois said. “They know where to send him.”

“They've apparently seen your interview. They've made an offer of asylum for him and any of the other passengers who want it.”
China has offered Clark asylum!!! And they have offered asylum for all the passengers in the plane!

I grew up with pictures like this one, of an East German soldier jumping over barbed wire to the freedom in West Germany:

[img]http://www.cs.utah.edu/~hatch/images/europe/berlin.guard[/img]

The idea of American people being given asylum in China is, well, mindboggling to me. (Of course the passengers were not given asylum, only offered asylum, and I can't imagine that they would accept it.) Still, if this entire chain of events had really happened here and now, in this world, I can imagine that the passengers might be better off in China than in the United States. In China they would probably be released immediately and maybe offered jobs that required a good knowledge of English. For all of that, they would of course have felt extremely lost and out of place.

The interesting thing is that this could never have happened in the show. The way I remember the 1990s, there is no way whatsoever that a planeload of ordinary Americans could ever have been treated like they have been treated in this story. I don't think that the mysterious nature of the arrival of the plane would have been kept such a secret. And while I don't doubt that the 1990s American authorities would have detained the passengers for a while, I also believe that they would quickly have provided the passengers with lawyers and explained the situation to them. And there is no way that any of those passengers would even have considered going to China to be given asylum there!

What happened? Why is the United States of today so different from the United States of the 1990s? Silly question. 9/11 happened, that's what. (And maybe the Bush administration. I still wonder if things might not have been very different if Al Gore had been President in 2001 instead of Bush.)

In 2002 or 2003, I read a column by someone who speculated that the whole 9/11 thing might blow over, that it might soon be as forgotten as some sort of Spanish attack on American warships that happened in the late 1800s. That attack apparently made the American public outraged, but it was relatively soon forgotten, and it certainly hasn't poisoned the U.S. relationship with Spain in the long run.

I remember that when I read that column, I scoffed. 9/11 would be forgotten? Come on! And maybe Santa Claus exists, too! And after I read this part of your story, Shayne, I remembered that column again, and I nodded in satisfaction. 9/11 would be forgotten? Hah!

But then I thought about it a little more, and I realized that - yes, 9/11 has been forgotten. Sort of. At least when I check out American newspapers on the internet, they so rarely mention 9/11. And here in Sweden 9/11 has been forgotten for real, at least among some people. In less than two months I will get a new class of 16-year-old students. These kids were nine years old when the towers fell, and if they are anything like the students I teach most of the time, then most of them will take little or no interest in politics. If I ask them what happened on 9/11, many, and possibly most of them, will look blank. If I show them footage of the falling towers, more of them will remember. But still there will probably be some who think I'm showing them a scene from a movie.

So 9/11 has been sort of forgotten, but the world has been profoundly changed because of it. We live in a totally different world than we used to, but many people don't really remember how it got that way, or what the world used to be like before.

The biggest change is what has happened to America. The difference between the 1990s and today is the level of fear permeating the American society. Fear is an ugly thing. I think it may have been Winston Churchill who said, "We have nothing to fear but fear itself.". Well, I think Churchill was wrong about that, because there are other things to fear, too. But Churchill was at least partly right, because fear is a particularly ugly emotion. It dehumanizes us. It takes away our ability to identify with others and feel sympathy for others. Protecting ourselves is all that matters. The world shrinks around us, and all we can see is what is threatening us. I think Agent Randal was ridden by fear when he tried to kill Lois. I also think that Agent White was ridden by fear when he lashed out at Lois for not controlling Clark. And I think that their superiors are ridden by fear when they are ready to protect Agents Randal and White, even though one of them tried to kill Lois and the other one put most of the blame for what had happened on Lois.

I also think that the Chinese authorities in your story are not really scared of Clark. They believe in what the Superman suit stands for, and they can see that Clark is living up to the promise of the suit. They believe in him, so they want to keep him. And I think it is true that people in China today are generally not as scared as people in the United states are these days.

Is there a way back to the time when America was not so scared? I think many people all over the world would be happy to see that happen.

This is an incredibly thought-provoking story, Shayne.

Ann
Posted By: Ank. K. S. Re: Comments: Veritas 38 - 06/14/08 01:08 AM
I was so glad Randal got sprayed laugh Agent White's comments reflect how simple actions get a totally skewed political interpretation. thumbsup
Posted By: Darth Michael Re: Comments: Veritas 38 - 06/14/08 10:29 AM
Great use of the pepper spray. And the poor American government getting freaked out by a helping Superman lol And the serious stuff was well played, too.

Looking forward to part 39, Michael
Posted By: Terry Leatherwood Re: Comments: Veritas 38 - 06/14/08 06:54 PM
Ann wrote:
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Why is the United States of today so different from the United States of the 1990s? Silly question. 9/11 happened, that's what. (And maybe the Bush administration. I still wonder if things might not have been very different if Al Gore had been President in 2001 instead of Bush.)
You're probably right, Ann. We probably would have suffered more terrorist attacks in the months following 9/11 had Al Gore been president at the time.

Shayne, this is indeed a marvelous story. I love where you're going with this. I still want to see Pilar eat some crow in front of Lois, but I can wait. What I'm really ready to see is what Lois will decide when Clark tries to return the plane and its passengers to his world.

As far as how "paranoid" and "horrible" the government is being perceived in this story, I ask once again - what would you do differently? Would you release a plane full of people who don't exist into society? Would you blindly accept their assurances that they're perfectly innocent when there's no way some of them could even be alive, much less be here in the first place? Would you disregard the safety of the entire country for the sake of a two hundred impossible people?

I doubt it. Oh, it's easy to criticize from our comfortable computer chairs and rant about how terrible the political situation is today in America, but hysterical denunciations do no one any good. I don't know what Shayne's political affiliations might be and I don't care. What I do care about is this marvelous story being told, and I'd much rather hear about the readers' reactions to the story than political posturing.

A couple of years ago, I read a comment by an Australian blogger that put forth the opinion that the American Civil War (1861-1865) wasn't over slavery because the earliest document he could find addressing slavery was Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation, issued in January 1863. The guy was so far out of touch with US history that I didn't bother to correct him. I bring it up now only because some of the reactions to this story are even less informed than this guy's opinion was.

Please don't think that I believe that political opinions should be banned from this board. I don't believe that. And please don't believe that I think that anyone who disagrees with me is a moron. I certainly don't believe that. What I do believe is this: if you have an opinion, you should be able to support it with facts. If you can't support your opinion with facts, do some research to gather facts to support your opinion. And if you do this, you will occasionally (as I have done in the recent past) change your opinion.

One opinion I find constant is that this is a terrific story. I'm still with you, Shayne! Keep up the great work!
Posted By: TOC Re: Comments: Veritas 38 - 06/14/08 11:23 PM
On March 11, 2004, four separate but coordinated attacks were carried out by an Al Queda-inspired cell in Spain, killing 191 people on commuter trains in Madrid and wounding another 1,755.

[Linked Image]

What was Spain's reaction? A majority of the Spanish people blamed their right-wing government and voted for a left-wing government instead. The new government took home Spain's troops from Iraq. Otherwise, not much happened. There are no excessive security controls at Spanish airports. Tourists are welcome. People don't ask about your fingerprints or political affiliations or miniature Swiss Army knives.

Immigrants are welcome, too. Spain has been very generous when it comes to accepting refugees and illegal immigrants from Africa. And Spain has nothing that even remotely resembles Guantanamo, and also nothing that even remotely resembles the Patriot Act. Even so, Spain, like the United States, has not been the victim of more terrorist attacks.

When I grew up in the sixties, I knew where in the world you would find excessive security controls at the borders and secret prisons where nameless things might be going on. That was in the Communist countries. I didn't know why that was so, and the only answer I got when I asked was that the Communists were evil. And maybe they were, too, but when I look back, my chief impression is that they were scared. They felt inferior, and they feared being attacked or taken over by the West. (And the satellite states were not only scared of the West, of course, but they were every bit as scared of the Soviet Union.) So they clamped down so hard on their own countries and their own people to make sure that they were in control of things as much as possible. And they most certainly didn't give strangers the benefit of the doubt, either. They did not dare to trust.

I'm not saying that the United States is like the Communist countries in the sixties. Obviously the differences are enormous. But for all of that, I would never have guessed that I would see as many similarities between the European Communist countries of the sixties and the United States of the early twenty-first century as I see today. And the biggest similarity is the level of fear permeating these societies.

Sorry for going off topic and stealing your thread, Shayne.

Ann
Posted By: Queen of the Capes Re: Comments: Veritas 38 - 06/15/08 12:32 AM
Dude! Still reading, still loving, still want more! laugh

This chapter really humanized the Chinese for me. I mean, yeah, we all know that everyone is people and there's no "us"/"them" really, but there's knowing and then there's seeing. A big hug to you for putting human faces on big, scary Red China, and especially the PLA. sloppy
Posted By: Framework4 Re: Comments: Veritas 38 - 06/15/08 01:43 AM
Off topic reply moved
Posted By: Terry Leatherwood Re: Comments: Veritas 38 - 06/15/08 07:02 AM
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Sorry to break it to you but the US Civil War was about economics.
See, this is exactly what I was talking about. This is an assertion which has no supporting facts and is therefore suspect. Besides, I did not state that the Civil War was about slavery. I merely pointed out that someone with a Web platform came to a very uninformed conclusion and made a big deal of it. Ann's analysis, while incomplete, is much better because she pulls in some facts and draws conclusions from them.

Of course Spain hasn't suffered any more attacks, Ann. You don't attack an opponent who's already surrendered.

Back to the subject at hand. Mary made an excellent point about humanizing the people Superman is helping. You've done that with the food shipments to the refugees, with the tornado victims in Kansas, and now the earthquake victims in China. Superman's mission to help people transcends political differences and artificial national boundaries, which is something Agent White has yet to realize.

The Chinese government's offer of asylum for Superman and the passengers is a political ploy intended to embarrass the US government, and as such can't be taken at face value. They do not have the welfare of the individuals in mind. The L&C universe, as portrayed in the TV show, was quite naive about such things for the most part. Superman, by being concerned for and focused on the individual or individuals needing help, makes his help personal and more meaningful. It's significant that in the 50's TV series with George Reeves Superman stood for "truth, justice, and the American way" with a 48-star flag waving in the background in the title sequence, while L&C's Superman stands for "truth and justice."

I agree that Superman shouldn't belong to any single political entity, because if he did, he might be perceived (or used) as a weapon for that political entity. I really like how he's helping all across the globe, Shayne, and that he's not checking fingerprints or political party affiliations. He's presenting the unsullied hero to the world, and that's going to help him so very much in his quest to take the plane and the passengers home.
Posted By: TOC Re: Comments: Veritas 38 - 06/15/08 09:43 AM
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Of course Spain hasn't suffered any more attacks, Ann. You don't attack an opponent who's already surrendered.
Wow, Terry. You seriously mean that Spain has surrendered to Al Queda?

All I can say is that if that is true, hey, then it's not so bad to be ruled by Al Queda. Spain is a very nice country, if you ask me.

[Linked Image]

Al Queda country.

Ann
Posted By: Framework4 Re: Comments: Veritas 38 - 06/15/08 09:45 AM
Off topic reply moved.
Posted By: Elisabeth Re: Comments: Veritas 38 - 06/15/08 04:19 PM
Sorry to steal the thread away from decent feedback, Shayne. I cannot agree that all wars are based on economics. The truth is that all wars are based on something that the warrior and/or the government felt passionate about. While it is true that greed is a strong motivator, it sells humanity very short to say that it is the only thing that mankind feels passionate about. The Japanese would have said that WWII was about honor; to them it certainly wasn't about land or money.


Elisabeth
Posted By: alcyone Re: Comments: Veritas 38 - 06/15/08 04:36 PM
Considering that the Pacific War started out of Japanese aggression in China and it's colonizing ventures and escalated out of serious economic pressure from Western powers, I'd hazard that it was at bottom about land and money as well--even to them (as well as for the Western powers who felt threatened by the Japanese army near their piece of the pie).

Sorry about that Shayne. This is a really interesting fic though! I love the diversity and the respect in your portrayals. It's so refreshing. I'm aware I haven't been the most constant of readers, my apologies.
alcyone
Posted By: Framework4 Re: Comments: Veritas 38 - 06/15/08 07:46 PM
Off topic reply moved.
Posted By: Queen of the Capes Re: Comments: Veritas 38 - 06/16/08 12:13 AM
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Originally posted by Terry Leatherwood:


The Chinese government's offer of asylum for Superman and the passengers is a political ploy intended to embarrass the US government, and as such can't be taken at face value. They do not have the welfare of the individuals in mind.
I disagree, at least mostly. It occurs to me that if you meet a powerful individual with even a slight inclination towards helping you, and discover that there is something he wants, you will likely want to suck up to him by offering to help him out.

It could be that China wishes to express gratitude, or genuinely feels for the people in question, or wants to get in Superman's good graces, or some combination of all of those things, or none of them.

I think attributing *strictly* malicious intent to the Chinese government, though, would be at least partially contradictory to the humanization Shayne has given them in this story. It would be awkward at best to flip flop from "China is human" to "China is conniving and evil".

Furthermore, consider if the roles were reversed. A powerful Chinese superhero appears in the USA, does wonderful things for people without asking anything in return, and then you learn that he is from another world and his people are hostages of the Chinese government. What would you do? Any red-blooded American, I'm sure, would rally around him, decrying the "evil, commie @$(=$&@!*#'s" who are mistreating innocent human beings. We would considerate our duty, as representatives of America, Freedom, and all that is good, to right these horrible wrongs! It'd be an ego-fest for us. We'd be the rescuers, whereas our enemies are painted as the villains. No malicious *intent* is needed.

Does any of this make sense? Sorry, I'm not at my best debate-ability at 1:00 am. blush
Posted By: Terry Leatherwood Re: Comments: Veritas 38 - 06/16/08 06:50 PM
When I wrote disparagingly about the Chinese government's offer of asylum, I should have made myself clearer. I was not accusing them of being evil or dishonest. I was simply offering the observation that governments rarely, if ever, do anything which is not in their own best interests. I did not intend to deride the offer as "malicious," just self-serving. Much as the US government has been portrayed in this story.

Patrick, I don't think this is the proper forum for debating history. If we're going to do that, we need to be in the Off Topic folder. If you'll start the thread, I'll contribute, and I promise to be a gentleman about it.

Ann, you have to keep in mind that Al-Queda's goal in Spain was to get Spanish troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan, not to occupy and run the country. They succeeded. That sure looks like a win to me.

Shayne, please bring on the next chapter!
Posted By: Framework4 Re: Comments: Veritas 38 - 06/16/08 07:30 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Terry Leatherwood:
Patrick, I don't think this is the proper forum for debating history. If we're going to do that, we need to be in the Off Topic folder. If you'll start the thread, I'll contribute, and I promise to be a gentleman about it.
Point taken. I will stay on topic and refrain from sarcastic responses.

I have removed my off topic replies and moved them to here

Quote
Originally posted by Terry Leatherwood:
Shayne, please bring on the next chapter!
Clearly we agree on the most important point, Shayne please post. grovel
Posted By: Queen of the Capes Re: Comments: Veritas 38 - 06/16/08 10:35 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Terry Leatherwood:
When I wrote disparagingly about the Chinese government's offer of asylum, I should have made myself clearer. I was not accusing them of being evil or dishonest. I was simply offering the observation that governments rarely, if ever, do anything which is not in their own best interests. I did not intend to deride the offer as "malicious," just self-serving. Much as the US government has been portrayed in this story.
Ah, okay. I can agree with that assessment, then. smile Of course, there is also the possibility, however faint, that this is a case of genuine altruism, but you're right; such is rare in governments.

Quote
Originally posted by Framework4:

Point taken. I will stay on topic and refrain from sarcastic responses.
Sorry, I just have to go off-topic for a moment to say I *love* this Fandom. whinging
/hugs FoLCs sloppy

*cough* Okay, sappyness aside...

Shayne? Don't you think the next part is about due? grovel
Posted By: TOC Re: Comments: Veritas 38 - 06/17/08 12:16 AM
Quote
Ann, you have to keep in mind that Al-Queda's goal in Spain was to get Spanish troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan, not to occupy and run the country. They succeeded. That sure looks like a win to me.
Terry, a very clear majority of the Spanish people were against the idea that Spanish troops should be sent to fight a war in Iraq. The Spanish government was certainly within its rights to send troops there anyway, because that is what representative democracy is all about: the people elect their own government and the government makes decisions for them. However, precisely because the government can make very unpopular decisions, they are obliged to regularly put their power at stake in general elections. If the voters are unhappy with their government's overall performance, they will send their government packing and get themselves other representatives to make decisions for them.

That is what happened in Spain. The people didn't want Spanish troops to be sent to Iraq. The right-wing government sent troops to Iraq anyway. Before the upcoming election, the left-wing party promised to bring the Spanish troops home from Iraq, if it won the election. Three days before the election, Al Queda attacked Madrid. The right-wing government refused to even acknowledge the possibility that the terrorist attack may have been the work of Al Queda, and instead they blamed the local Basque terrorist organisation, the ETA. Instead of trying to argue that Spain fought a larger war, and that terrorist attacks may be the cost that Spain had to pay in order to help win a war that might bring democracy to the Middle East, the Spanish government stuck their heads in the sand and refused to even discuss and defend the costs of the unpopular war in Iraq. A majority of the Spanish people may not have bought the idea that Spain ought to make itself a target for Al Qeada in order to bring democracy to the Middle East, or that a victory in Iraq was in any way necessary in the larger fight for freedom, but the Spanish government did not even try.

A majority of the Spanish people were outraged at the fact that their government had not only sent troops to Iraq, but now they refused to acknowledge the possibility that Spain had suffered an Al Queda attack because of it. The Spanish people wanted to get rid of their present government, and they wanted the Spanish troops to be brought home from Iraq. So they voted for the left-wing party, which had promised to bring the Spanish troops home.

The left-wing party won. It had promised to take the Spanish troops home from Iraq, so it did.

You may call that surrender to Al Queda, Terry. I call it democracy.

Ann
Posted By: LabRat Re: Comments: Veritas 38 - 06/18/08 08:27 AM
[Linked Image]

While we don't jump all over posters on this forum when a thread wanders and have a fairly easy policy on the matter, I do think this one has wandered so far away from the point of the thread that it needs to be brought back into line.

Thread drift can be fun and I've always thought that it enhances a discussion rather than detracts from it, in most instances. And, for the most part, this has been an interesting conversation. But it has nothing to do with leaving feedback for Shayne's story.

So, although your opinions on the subject are more than welcome here, if you want to discuss world politics in depth, without any reference to how they connect to Shayne's story, then please do post your views in the thread that Patrick currently has ongoing for the purpose in the Off Topic folder.

Thanks!

I now return you to (hopefully) lots more lovely feedback for Shayne's story. wink

LabRat smile
Posted By: Artemis Re: Comments: Veritas 38 - 06/18/08 09:10 PM
Great story, Shane. Lots of political maneuvering going on. Keep it coming.
cool
Artemis
Posted By: Framework4 Re: Comments: Veritas 38 - 06/19/08 12:37 AM
Quote
Originally posted by LabRat:
I now return you to (hopefully) lots more lovely feedback for Shayne's story. wink
Hopefully our drifting off topic has not discouraged Shayne so much that he lets the story sit and age.

When last we left Clark
Quote
He moved forward, his body suddenly a blur. He’d be faster this time; he had to be.
People were depending on him.
And those of us here are depending on Shayne to post more of this delightful tale. For those coming in late the TOC for this tale.

I'd love to see some of the media coverage. I keep going back to the young reporter, Anita Mendoza, Action News, in part 30

She has seen Superman in action in person.
Quote
When the metal began to groan and the container began to rise, the blood ran from her face. He shifted the container and the crowd around them took a collective step back. The reporter remained where she was.
Likely she was saying things inside her station that caused them to treat the story less as a hoax and cover the events in serious tone.

I would love to watch some more behind the scenes bits. We looked at events standing on the shoulder of Lois's exboss
Quote
On the big screen the picture was six feet high, repeated across five different monitors. For the first time Pilar began to hate the way her station played the same news over and over again.

Everyone was expecting C.N.N. to have the story and all Pilar could do was watch helplessly as it all collapsed around her.
We need some more such views.
Posted By: IolantheAlias Re: Comments: Veritas 38 - 06/20/08 10:05 PM
I'm having withdrawal here!

It's June 20 and I haven't seen a chapter for a few days.

Shayne, Shayne, Shayne - I'm begging you! Write more!
Posted By: DebbieG Re: Comments: Veritas 38 - 06/21/08 11:33 AM
Terminal Boredom chuckled quietly as Lois Reader struggled against the ropes binding her to her chair. "I'm afraid you'll have a hard time freeing yourself. I know your reputation, and I've tied you up extra-carefully."

Lois put on a brave face. "All right, so maybe you've got me where you want me. But you still won't get away with this! Veritas will find me."

Boredom raised an eyebrow. "Veritas? What makes you think Veritas will save you?"

"It's saved me from you more times than I can count!" Her face colored slightly, as she reflected that perhaps she should rely a little less on Veritas to escape Boredom's clutches and little more on herself.

Boredom smiled blandly. "Have you considered that Veritas may not be coming this time?" He waves his arms. "Lead-lined, you know."

Lois blanched inside, but met his gaze firmly. "Veritas has never let me down, and it won't this time, either! I know it's coming!"

Boredom shrugged. "We shall see." He walked to the door. "Meditate on your faith, my dear. In a few hours I shall have my way with you." He turned out the lights and left Lois in darkness.

Lois shuddered at the thought of what Terminal Boredom could do to her. "Veritas," she whispered. "Where are you?"
Posted By: ShayneT Re: Comments: Veritas 38 - 06/21/08 01:09 PM
Sorry about the delay. A combination of lightning storms which left me unable to use my computer, family visiting from out of town, and not feeling well has slowed things down a bit.

I've got most of the next chapter done however, so hopefully it won't be much longer.
Posted By: DebbieG Re: Comments: Veritas 38 - 06/21/08 02:30 PM
I have family staying with me right now too... I know how busy it can keep you.

I hope you feel better soon, Shayne. Don't let our importuning distract you from that.
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