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Posted By: ShayneT Comments: Veritas 18 - 04/03/08 08:01 PM
Well, what do you think?
Posted By: carolm Re: Comments: Veritas 18 - 04/03/08 08:18 PM
Fascinating as always.

Clark's thoughts on how much he should get involved were interesting. Nice to see he flew Cyrus to N. O. smile . I was actually just posting on my class website about FEMA and Katrina...

Not what I expected from whoever was talking to Lois. Can't wait to see what the website says. At least someone, somewhere is starting to believe the whole alternate universe thing. As implausible as it sounds, it actually may be the most probable explanation [of course, we know it's true, but from their perspective].

More soon please smile .
Carol
Posted By: QueenOfAces Re: Comments: Veritas 18 - 04/03/08 08:35 PM
Shayne,

This is a fascinating story. I love all of the little details you throw in there, from the computers to the impact of Hurricane Katrina (having grown up on the Mississippi Gulf Coast, this is a particularly personal issue for me). I also love how you are using the events of our world to help Clark make a decision about becoming Superman in his own world. This is a very clever and thoughtful piece, and I look forward to seeing where you will go next.
Posted By: DebbieG Re: Comments: Veritas 18 - 04/03/08 09:34 PM
Shayne, quite aside from being a great Lois and Clark fanfic, this is a great story in its own right. I have to echo what everyone else said: fascinating!
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“What would you say if I told you we’ve catalogued more than three thousand pieces of evidence that said these people were telling the truth?”
I knew someone had to actually be doing their job. laugh
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“About half of the duplicates were fifteen years younger than their counterparts here.”
Like Javier! I thought there was a reason they wanted his photos from 15 years ago...
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“That’s what the boys upstairs keep insisting. They won’t believe what the people on the scene are telling them…or the experts either.”
That seems to be par for the course these days, doesn't it? frown
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Lucy Lane wasn’t some deluded cultist, or even a dedicated terrorist and traitor. She was telling the truth, and the other people on the plane were telling the truth.

Which meant the sister she’d grown up with, the sister she’d practically raised, was really dead.
Of course this is the first thing she is going to think of. Poor Lois! I wonder how she and Lucy will handle this when they meet again. The same is true in reverse for Lucy, though I wonder if the passengers are ever going to be told that they've visited a parallel world.

After she's gotten over the initial shock, there are a lot more implications. Like, "Clark Kent" is really named Clark Kent, he's the only one not in custody, he was "hanging" from the plane that had non-functional engines (a piece of information "Deep Throat" didn't pass on, but Lois noticed herself)... and he cleaned her windows from the outside.
Posted By: TOC Re: Comments: Veritas 18 - 04/04/08 12:04 AM
I'm afraid I'm going to be critical this time, Shayne.

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For someone who had seemed so levelheaded just a few minutes before, Cyrus had screamed like a girl once they were both in the air.
I found this vaguely sexist. Admittedly, that's a minor quibble.

I was also irritated at Lois's attitude, when she insisted on describing the people from the plane as cultist or as parts of a hoax:

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“What do you think all this is, Ms. Lane?” the voice asked.

“It's some kind of hoax, obviously. Maybe a cult related thing.”
She should know better than that by now. The hoax or cult "theory" doesn't explain anything, and what's more, it doesn't even hold up as a description. But then again, I can see Lois playing the devil's advocate to make her source reveal as much as possible to her about the case, so this, too, is a minor quibble.

This, on the other hand, made me freeze:

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The nation was in its second war with Iraq; he'd been able to pick up that much.

He was going to have to make some decisions before he went back. He wasn't going to allow these things to happen again if he could help it. If he had to shore up levees with his own hands, he'd do it.

Was he willing to remove a dictator from power if it meant saving thousands of lives?
Clark is seriously considering removing his world's Saddam Hussein from power if he manages to make it back home?

How would he go about accomplishing that? Would he swoop down from the sky, grab Saddam Hussein from his palace or from his hiding-place, and kill him? Or would he swoop down from the sky, grab Saddam Hussein, and bring him to justice? If so, whose justice? The justice of the United States?

Does Clark think he would save thousands of lives if he turned himself into his own world's American super-weapon, aimed at other nations? Particularly if he launched himself against Saddam Hussein? Never mind that Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with 9/11? If Clark goes back home and prepares to take out Saddam Hussein, Osama bin Laden and the rest of Al Qaeda can go on planning 9/11 in peace and quiet to their hearts' content.

Clark hasn't even contemplated the question of why his nation is in its second war with Iraq. He hasn't asked himself if it may have anything at all to do with bad judgement on the part of his own country's administration. So instead of wondering if he ought to try to dissuade his own country from launching a needless attack on Iraq, he is wondering if he should attack Iraq and Saddam Hussein pre-emptively himself. He is, in fact, asking himself if he should do, pre-emptively, what George W. Bush wants to be done anyway. He is prepared to turn himself into a pre-emptively striking super-version of George Bush?

I'm sorry about being so harsh and horrified. I don't think you meant it quite like that, Shayne. But just the other day I read about a survey which found that even today, in 2008, people in western Europe still distrust George Bush more than they distrust Vladimir Putin of Russia. To most Americans, this probably sounds like a crazy way of looking at the world, but there is in fact a reason for it. Vladimir Putin has never started a war. Since the Soviet Union fell and became Russia plus a number of smaller nations, Russia has never started a war. (Okay, yes, they did start one against Chechnya, but that was comparable to the U.S. was against Afghanistan... you know, a war against a nation demonstrably sheltering terrorists.) Compared with that, Bush seems like a loose cannon indeed. Remember that if the Pentagon and CIA and other branches of U.S. intelligence had not stepped in and stopped Bush, he might have started a war against Iran by now.

So please, please, Shayne, don't let Clark swoop down from the sky and take out Saddam Hussein, at least not without a massive international backing behind him. Do let him shore up the levees of New Orleans, though, and do let him find out a lot of facts about Al Qaeda so that he can prevent 9/11 from happening to his world.

Ann
Posted By: Framework4 Re: Comments: Veritas 18 - 04/04/08 02:16 AM
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Originally posted by TOC:
Does Clark think he would save thousands of lives if he turned himself into his own world's American super-weapon, aimed at other nations? Particularly if he launched himself against Saddam Hussein?
Maybe he's thinking of swooping down and removing that world's George Bush?
Posted By: DebbieG Re: Comments: Veritas 18 - 04/04/08 09:40 AM
I agree with Ann's view on the realities behind the Iraq war, but I'm not worried about Clark, nor Shayne's portrayal of his thoughts. Clark has many powers, but omniscience is not one of them: one of the things I like about the LnC version of Clark is that he's human, not a god.

He's been getting what he can from the media while being on the run from the government, and if you just watched TV or hurriedly browsed a few newspapers, you might think Saddam was involved with 9/11 too. Being new to this world and on the run, I think we can cut him a little slack. Being Clark, I'm sure he would think through all the ethical issues before getting involved, and I think that's what Shayne is having him do here.

Presumably, in his own world, Clark would be much better informed on the events leading up to 9/11 and the Iraq war. And I hope he (and the Daily Planet) would do a better job than our media have in conveying accurate information to the public. frown

I've often thought that it would be very hard for Superman to operate in the real world: there would be clamoring from all sides for him to get involved in political and military things he probably shouldn't. Politicians would be trying to capitalize on him, and might badmouth him if he didn't do what they wanted. Imagine how it could be spun: "Superman refuses to support U.S. troops!" Dangerous territory.
Posted By: TOC Re: Comments: Veritas 18 - 04/04/08 11:05 AM
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I agree with Ann's view on the realities behind the Iraq war, but I'm not worried about Clark, nor Shayne's portrayal of his thoughts. Clark has many powers, but omniscience is not one of them: one of the things I like about the LnC version of Clark is that he's human, not a god.

He's been getting what he can from the media while being on the run from the government, and if you just watched TV or hurriedly browsed a few newspapers, you might think Saddam was involved with 9/11 too. Being new to this world and on the run, I think we can cut him a little slack. Being Clark, I'm sure he would think through all the ethical issues before getting involved, and I think that's what Shayne is having him do here.
Very good points, Debbie. So I withdraw my criticisms. Only please show us, before this fic has come to an end, that Clark will be looking out for Al Qaeda instead trying to take out Saddam Hussein, Shayne!

Ann
Posted By: Cornelia Re: Comments: Veritas 18 - 04/04/08 11:45 AM
Great chapter, as usual! hyper

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“If you are a source, why stick me in the back? Call me, send me an e-mail…”
“I don’t want to end up in jail for treason,” the voice said. “Or lose my job.”
This could be agent White personifying Deep Throat... perhaps with the quiet assent of some of his colleagues.

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Given the nondisclosure contract she’d signed, she’d have to be able to prove every piece of evidence she supplied had come from a source other than what had been reveled by the government itself.
Oh yes... and who could that non-government source be? *whistles innocently*

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Flying over the major highways had long been one of Clark’s navigation tricks; the long lines of flowing headlines stretched off into the distance as bright as any visible trail.
Headlines? I´m not so sure about my English, but don´t you mean headlights?

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This was a city whose heartbeat had stuttered and almost died.
It´s so sad to read the whole passage about New Orleans. From over here, we don´t hear much about it. Is it still that bad? frown

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He was going to have to make some decisions before he went back. He wasn’t going to allow these things to happen again if he could help it. If he had to shore up levees with his own hands, he’d do it.
Was he willing to remove a dictator from power if it meant saving thousands of lives?
Just how involved should he be in politics, in matters of war and human suffering? Should he take a strictly humanitarian role, or should he be more proactive?
That´s a nice big can of worms you are opening here. What would happen if a real existing Superman chose to go the same way of neutrality as in the comics and the movies and take a strictly humanitarian role? As Clark Kent he can write about politics and voice his opinion, something Superman would never do. But what about borderline situations that involve humanitarian problems and politics? The problem has been tackled in several stories on these boards, I think especially of "The long road home" (I think that´s the name of the story). But I never have seen a real solution for this... I don´t think there is one.

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He was going to need a disguise and an identity.
That didn’t mean he had to choose this world’s version of a costume. He hated the idea of being shoehorned into a role, even if the costume wasn’t half bad.
Very slowly he persuades himself of taking on the role. I love it how you manage to develop this because it becomes really credible that way! clap

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“What would you say if I told you we’ve catalogued more than three thousand pieces of evidence that said these people were telling the truth?”
Finally!

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“Maybe they had something done to them,” Lois said weakly. “Something to fool the tests.”
“That’s what the boys upstairs keep insisting. They won’t believe what the people on the scene are telling them…or the experts either.”
That´s what I meant when I wrote about paranoid governments... sometimes they simply don´t accept what´s right before their eyes.

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“These computers don’t use Windows, Mac OS, Linux or Solaris. They use a kind of operating system than we’ve never seen before…and they are designed so that you don’t lose your work even if the power goes out. The power returns and your screen pops back up where you left it.”
Can I please have one of those? PLEEEEASE! wildguy
laugh
Posted By: Elisabeth Re: Comments: Veritas 18 - 04/04/08 12:00 PM
Glad that it wasn't some street thug attacking Lois. It seems like everyone is gunning for her these days.

I also enjoyed Clark's introspective. It is not often that he counts the cost before becoming Superman.


Elisabeth
Posted By: Marcus Rowland Re: Comments: Veritas 18 - 04/04/08 12:09 PM
Nice to see the technological differences becoming apparent.

One thing that bothers me - the informer says that half of the duplicates are fifteen years younger - I presume you meant the ones on the plane, but it read like it meant half the duplicates on the plane, which I assume wasn't the intention.
Posted By: Cornelia Re: Comments: Veritas 18 - 04/04/08 12:13 PM
TOC, I just read your post, and I saw this:

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But just the other day I read about a survey which found that even today, in 2008, people in western Europe still distrust George Bush more than they distrust Vladimir Putin of Russia. To most Americans, this probably sounds like a crazy way of looking at the world, but there is in fact a reason for it. Vladimir Putin has never started a war.
I live in western Europe, and I can tell you: most people in Europe don´t like George W. Bush and think he is an idiot and a very bad fake of Christian ideals. Do you know the song "Dear Mr. President"? It went straight up in the charts here... But distrust him? No, not really. We know he still is a democratically elected president, but he is abusing his powers. And he is too stupid to know what he is doing. That´s what the people I know think of him. And me too. *runs away and hides*

Putin is not democratically elected. He just pretends. He is building a position of power for Russia that is slowly coming near to the old Soviet Union, and he does it by commerce and money. He plays political power games and abuses the FSB to murder journalists who dare to criticize him or his puppet government (Medvedev). No, we don´t trust Putin at all. But we think we know he wouldn´t start a war against Europe or America, because he has nothing to win with that. The problem is: Russia is much nearer to Europe than America. We had it for a long time directly at our eastern borders, during the time of the German Democratic Republic (Eastern Germany) and the Cold War. So we had to build a relationship to Russia, and after the end of the Cold War there were friendly negotiations and even real friendship to people like Gorbatchov. But Putin? We have to accept him, but nobody I know does really trust him. And especially not our politicians. But none of them would ever say that aloud.

I don´t know where that survey came from, but it doesn´t sound to me as if the interviewers had asked the questions that way they get the real opinion behind a "Yes" or "No".
Posted By: ShayneT Re: Comments: Veritas 18 - 04/04/08 02:17 PM
Don't worry, Ann. I know exactly what kind of horrible mess getting involved in political situations would be for Clark. There's no better way to make enemies of people in power than to remove someone from power; it makes the other heads of state uneasy as they ask themselves "Am I next?"

In a way, Clark is in the same situation as the United States itself. Do you wield power and risk making enemies of the rest of the world, or do you sit by and let things happen, and still recieve criticism.

But having the kind of power Clark does means that he's going to be faced with some ugly decisions. If the leader of a nation is ordering genocide, for example, can Clark in good conscience sit by and allow it to go on WITHOUT doing something?

Yet the moment he becomes involved in politics, he can no longer maintain the ideals he wants to represent. He risks becoming an enemy of entire regions, entire peoples as they resent his interference in their lives.

So for Clark to be asking himself the questions...well, it's something he has to do. He's going to have to know where he stands when everything is said and done. We live in a complex world, and the person with the giant hammer had better be careful unless he risks breaking something he doesn't want to break.

That doesn't mean he's going o set himself up as a dictator, of course. After all, even if he's only Alt-Clark, he IS the one we know and love.

It might be helpful if he had some knowledgable advice as to the pitfalls of power, someone who had been through the aftermath of war and terrorism and knew where the minefields were.

Of course, where would he ever find someone like that?
Posted By: Snave Re: Comments: Veritas 18 - 04/04/08 02:29 PM
I can just see the scene at Mavis's front door:

As Mavis answers the door, she is nearly blown away to see Cyrus, whom she hasn't heard from since about the time of Katrina, alive and apparently well. He tells her he hitched a ride with the guy next to him, who is an angel. The "angel" wishes him well, and begins to rise into the air, as Mavis gasps and sags against the doorframe.

Just in time, Cyrus remembers to ask the angel's name. The angel gives a what-the-heck shrug, and says, "Clark. Clark Kent." As he flies quickly out of sight, Cyrus's eyes suddenly get large and round as the light dawns...

Shayne, the power of this story is that it moves well-known fictional characters into the real world, to mingle with real ones. The case-lot of worm cans which this opens (as indicated by the various postings above) is unavoidable, but welcome, as real-world issues are addressed.

Keep it coming!

Snave
Posted By: AmyPrime Re: Comments: Veritas 18 - 04/04/08 06:02 PM
Great part! Keep it coming.
Posted By: sunrei Re: Comments: Veritas 18 - 04/04/08 07:56 PM
Whew. Glad that the would-be attack was just a ruse to stay an anonymous source. Although, it does delay my Lois-Clark reunion.

I'm glad that Lois is getting some more dirt on the situation and I can't wait to see what she finds out. I get the impression that the wheels in her brain are turning as she starts to wonder a little bit more about Clark. I can't wait for the "Wait... your name really *is* Clark Kent?!"

And Clark- interesting that Cyrus has seen, spoken to, touched, and flown with an angel. Clark is getting the hang of covert supes-stuff and is warming up to the idea of a costume. I like it.

As for the politics of it all, I think that what really sticks out to me is once again the contrast between how differently we saw the world pre 9/11. I often wonder what kind of superhero would be created by minds today. Definitely grittier and less optimistic - but would a hero like that be able to sustain 70+ years? Interesting.

Anyway, enjoyed the update, and can't wait until we get some more!

~s
Posted By: TOC Re: Comments: Veritas 18 - 04/04/08 10:58 PM
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But having the kind of power Clark does means that he's going to be faced with some ugly decisions. If the leader of a nation is ordering genocide, for example, can Clark in good conscience sit by and allow it to go on WITHOUT doing something?
Clark definitely shouldn't sit by while genocide was being committed. Which is why I absolutely would have wanted him to intervene in Rwanda in 1994 or in Haditha in the Kurdish part of Iraq in 1988. It was Saddam who committed genocide in Haditha, so intervening in 1988 to have him removed from power would have been totally justified. It would have been okay to press for him to be put on trial for his crimes against humanity many years later, too. Just as long as you accuse him of the things that he is actually guilty of, not remove him from power because of the crimes he may commit in the future.

Ann
Posted By: Darth Michael Re: Comments: Veritas 18 - 04/05/08 02:59 AM
Great part. Lois finally realized that the people from the plane are not her people. But will she accept the Alt-U or is she going to go with conspiracy?

Michael
Posted By: Mister Data Re: Comments: Veritas 18 - 04/05/08 11:32 AM
Don't know if you intended this or not, but I like the reference to a sewer access, like Beauty and the Beast.

James
Posted By: Ank. K. S. Re: Comments: Veritas 18 - 04/05/08 09:36 PM
thumbsup (loved the source's comment on Lois being observant)...

It's good that Clark is pondering on how much he should get involved. He has double the pressure because in addition to having super-powers, he is also being armed with fore-knowledge about what might take place in his world. Very heady! But as we saw.. (I think it was your story.. "Dear Lois"), imho Clark's superpowers should reamin well away from politics. thumbsup thumbsup

going to read Part 19 dance
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