Lois & Clark Forums Forums General Discussion Off Topic A Canadian Coup?

Will we have a coup that will overthrow the Canadian government - Canadian style, of course. But then, we don't exactly use guns; we use politics.

And you gotta love Canadian politics - especially in a minority government

War plans? Who's Canada going to war against, Greenland? Or is this a sketch for the Red Green show?

Canada isn't going to war against anyone, Terry. The Conservatives took the first shot in a war against the Liberals, the NDP and the Bloc. Now the Liberals, NDP and Bloc are threatening to fire back.

That's the fun part about being Canadian. We don't need external enemies. We have enough fun attacking each other .

Well, as long as our politicians attack each other, at least they don't have time to enact stupid laws .

ML

ML meant the Governor-General, rather than the Attorney General.

I love the snark here, ML.

But define "opposition" . Given there are 3 political parties in Opposition, no two of which in combination has more seats than The Government Party, it'll be neccesary for a LIberal-NDP coaltion to also include the Bloc Quebecois whose goal is to separate from Canada.

So for this "coalition" to govern Canada, it would have to rely on the Party that wants to break up Canada.

Gotta love irony.

There. Are. NO ADULTS. in Parliament. None. Nada. Rien. Kein. Nope - no Grown-ups.

What economic crisis?

soooo teed off.

c.

Oops. Uh, yeah. That.

Well, that's the only reason I vote - so that I can, afterwards, sit on the sidelines and snark at all these clowns.

Personally, I think they should go all the way with this by making Gilles Duceppe the Prime Minister. Wouldn't that make politics in Canada fun? Or... at least make it fun for the last few months that Canada is a country

Wait! There's an economic crisis? Well, darn, someone should mention that to the boys on the hill.

Oh, but, wait! I thought that this fight was over the economic crisis. The Prime Minister of the week decided to take away the opposition's money because the entire Canadian economy was doomed if they paid out that $30 million. And the opposition is fighting to get the government to introduce a stimulus package. It has nothing to do with losing that money.

So see... they really are taking the economy seriously (and if you believe that, there's some swamp land in Florida I'd like to sell you - really cheaply, too, considering the economic times in which we live )

And you're just figuring this out now?

ML (who finds laughing at the idiocy of all politics so much more fun than debating the issues)

lol - ML, I want to believe! But , sadly, the truth is out there.

c.

I recently read that during the Great Depression, while small-town American banks were failing left and right (at least partly due to highly restrictive banking laws), there were almost no failures of Canadian banks, largely due to their ability to diversify their portfolios to spread their risk exposure and their ability to open branches across the nation and spread out their liabilities. That was smart, and it proves to Americans that Canadians don't just play hockey or sit around and drink beer and say 'eh' in every other sentence.

If the various political parties in the Canadian government are fighting against each other so hard that they can't pass laws, much less enact a comprehensive program of any kind, that's pretty restrictive. Of course, given the track record of most democratic/republican governments (type, not political persuasion), that's not necessarily a bad thing. Can you maybe export some of that southwards via NAFTA?

Spotted this in a friend's blog, which may help to put this in context:


"While we have been working on the economy, the opposition has been working on a backroom deal to overturn the results of the last election without seeking the consent of voters. They want to take power, not earn it."

(Stephen Harper in a statement to the press on the possibility of the Conservative minority government being replaced by a majority coalition of opposition parties - November 28, 2008)

“As leaders of the opposition parties, we are well aware that, given the Liberal minority government, you could be asked by the Prime Minister to dissolve the 38th Parliament at any time should the House of Commons fail to support some part of the government's program. We respectfully point out that the opposition parties, who together constitute a majority in the House, have been in close consultation. We believe that, should a request for dissolution arise this should give you cause, as constitutional practice has determined, to consult the opposition leaders and consider all of your options before exercising your constitutional authority. Your attention to this matter is appreciated."

(From a letter to the Governor-General signed by Jack Layton, Gilles Duceppe, and Stephen Harper - September 9, 2004)

In other words, Harper is complaining about something he tried to do himself!

Yes, those twin quotes are on the front page of today's Toronto Sun also.

What's even more ironic is... well, what exactly was the will of the people in the 2008 election? That Stephen Harper remain prime minister? That the Conservatives form a government? The Conservatives don't have a majority in Parliament. They're attempting to govern from a minority position. At the moment, therefore, the majority in Parliament, as elected by the voters, is the combined opposition parties. So who exactly is taking power without having earned it?


Wendy

But, MLT that surely can't be. Stephen Harper's own mother said that there was nothing wrong with the economy and that we should feel perfectly safe investing right now. Now, if Stephen Harper's Mom feels this way, we all should, right?

This whole situation is a mess. We just had an election that cost us millions of dollars. Now, the Opposition are thinking of forming a coalition government. Now, with the Liberals having the most numbers of seats out of the other Opposition parties, we're going to have Stephane Dion as Prime Minister. Lest we forget, Dion is stepping down from his post, so he really doesn't want to be PM. Ducceppe is the next logical step, but can you imagine what kind of country Canada would become with him as PM? Yes, he would make Canadian politics fun. I'm not sure about productive, but surely we would have fun.

Well, given the way our politicians are behaving, I think your reason is the best reason to vote. I think it would naive to actually vote cause you thought things would be different.

Well, we have our Finance Minister announcing today that more economic stimulus will be included in a January 27th budget. Now, the real question is, will this date really be his budget, or will it belong to the incoming coalition government?

Let's wait and see.

It's a total mess, screw -up, add in obscenties at your discretion.

So....

The Liberals, who had the worst electoral results of their party in over half a century are going to form the next government of Canada. The new Prime Minister, Stephane Dion, will be a person who had the lowest popular poll (doesn;t matter which poll or when it was done) confidence ratings of Harper, Layton, and himself throughout the campaign.

The Liberal-NDP coaltion will hold power only with the support of the Bloc Quebecois, a separatist party. So what is the deal that the Liberal-NDP have struck to guarantee that support? (and they *must* be able to demonstrate to the Governor General that they have that support if she is to ask them to form the government rather than call an election)

As well, what is the specific economic stimulus package that the Coaltion will present once they form the government? Since that is what they fault the current government on not offering, they must present their proposals.

This weekend the Conservative government has retreated from several of the proposals it made in the Speech From the Throne and has indicated it will provide some stimulus for the Canadian economy, including the automotive sector.

(although the US has to act first with respect to the auto sector, and that won't happen until the Big 3 report to Congress, and also until Obama takes office on Jan 20. Given Obama's ambivalence toward NAFTA, it's difficult for Canadians to plan specifically until we know what his admin will do)

so...

The Conservative Government screwed up big time,
and then
the Opposition actually Opposed (it's constitutional right)
and then
The Conservative Government offered a compromise
and then
the Oppostion did not meet them half way

no adults any where in all this - plotting and skullduggery everywhere. The national interest? no where - not in the wee souls of the Conservatives, the Liberals, and the NDP. At least the Bloc Q have been up front about the national interest never having been part of their agenda - well define Nation, but I digress)

teed off big time (would have stronger words but this is not the
n side of the universe

sadly

One bloody, dysfunctional mess.

c.

I'm not sure that it's true to say that the Opposition didn't meet the government half-way - as I read it, the Opposition objected to the lack of any economic stimulus package, in response to which the Conservatives removed the 'removing funding from political parties' proposal (which was never part of the election platform and appeared out of the blue this week). Yes, Flaherty is now saying that there may be economic stimulus in January, but many commentators feel that this will be too late. Still, I'm certainly not an expert on Canadian party politics and strategy, and it's just as likely that the Opposition parties believe that they have the Conservatives on the run now so why on earth should they stop now?

As for who would be prime minister under an Opposition-parties coalition, there are apparently already talks between the parties to dump Dion ASAP and bring in someone who might be perceived as a bit more acceptable to the electorate - and, true, to the opposition parties (and, naturally, is neither Bob Rae nor Michael Ignatieff... ). The question is, of course, whether such a paragon actually exists. The name I've seen mentioned is Ralph Goodale, but I know too little about the personalities to guess whether he'd more closely resemble David quelling Goliath, or... well,




Wendy

Hey, now you're catching on.

wendy wrote:

Yesterday, at a press conference, Flaherty (our finance minister for any non-Canadian who might be reading this ) said that there *would* be aid for the automotive sector in the January budget as part of a stimulus package. But I do agree that it would have been more reassuring to see a more specific stimulus package announced.

The Americans have yet to introduce a stimulus package, other than the bank bailouts. Our government had already injected money into the banking system. As well our banking system is was not quite as shaky as the American one. (not this government's doing, btw - our syystem has been in place for over half a century. (That means I've forgotten the exact date the Bank of Canada and all those banking regs were put in place! )

Of course, do we trust Flaherty? Do we trust very many of them?

Oh I agree, absolutely! The scent is in the air. And backing down is very hard to do,

Goodale as PM , eh? He's a bit of a bully in Hof C debates. But he was the interim leader prior to the convention that chose Dion, so it would be logical for the Party to pick him now, until the Liberal leadership is decided in May.

Still would really like to know what the Bloc has been promised in return for its support. Waiting for the media to ask some hard questions. Perhaps today they will, So far they've been too giddy covering the 'game' itself..

So very unstable - bet the stock market loses big points today.

Global economic crisis, rising unemployment and the boys in Ottawa are playing alpha-male Student Council games. (or pissing contests on the football field but I don't believe I can say that on the non-n side .)

sooooo teeeeeeeeeed off

c.

addition: The National Post is saying Michael Ignatief - if so that's a pretty amazing achivement for the very bright Ignatief. He returneed to Canada 2 years ago after a nearly 30 year absence - he'd decidied he would like to become leader of the Liberal Party . He lost to Dion but has become a very creditable Member of Parliament since then. According to the Post he was unwilling to support the Coaltion unless, well... he were its leader.

Game to Michael Ignatief. (okay the political junkie in me is fascinated by how he's played his hand)

but...

still teed off!

And what do you want to bet the Coaltion Gov't will still recess for Christamas as planned (Parliament breaks well before the Christmas week) and have no stilulus package ready to go before the end of January which is when the Conservatives were going to announce theirs.

teed off and cynical

I think a lot of the ruckus caused this weekend could have been avoided if the Fall Update contained a stimulus package. But, it seems that the Opposition threat of bringing down the government was needed to get the Tories thinking about a package.

I know there are thoughts as to whether Goodale, Ignatieff, and Rae could be the new PM. But, we do have a Liberal Leader already, Dion. He's announced that he's stepping down in May 2009. This is the PM were talking about. In this period of economic uncertainty, do we really want an interim PM, whose going to change a couple of months from now? I thought the whole point was to create stable leadership that would take us through this period of turmoil. But, perhaps the fun of these politics trumps the need for stability?

nail on the head, grinch - nail on the head.

btw, it might not be Iggy, after all - the soap op continues - Drama Queens now dominate our political narrative.

c.

Oh, I don't know, guys. I think Dion would be a cute Prime Minister. He sort of reminds me of a raggedy ann doll - you know, the one a five year old drags around by one leg with its head bouncing on the ground

I couldn't find the perfect picture to show you what I mean

Oh, hey! I just noticed! Now, doesn't the baby in that photo remind you of Steven Harper? (and people thought the two of them didn't like each other )


ML

Oh, oh, oh! Or maybe that's Dion and Layton.

Latest update: Signed agreement between the opposition parties to form a coalition if the Conservatives lose the confidence motion on December 8. And, interestingly, it's been agreed between the three parties that Dion will be leader/prime minister.

Well, well, well...

Wendy