Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Related PG13 policy on the Archive

Oh, I think there are more than a few forum members under that age. At least, I know there used to be. And we have no clue what the ages are of the readers of the Archive - they could conceivably cover a large age range. Not all readers of the Archive are also members here and it's an open website.

But really the age of the readership is less relevant than the fact that the Archive has submission rules and one of them currently is that these words are beyond the PG13 and should not be present in submitted stories. (And the same PG13 rule applies on the forum here, with the exception of the nfic folder, of course.)

LabRat

There are a few. I know there is a least one story on the archive that was written by a 14 or 15 year old. And as Labby said, there are occasionally teens on the board, too.

LabRat wrote:
There's no way for me to know if this is the reason, but in the Orthodox Jewish faith people don't write out "God" because it's the name of the most holy being, so they substitute "G_d" to keep from writing out His title or His Name. Even people of Jewish heritage who become Christians often retain this convention.

And I recall a terse conversation I had with my high school English teacher (who was universally disliked due to her poor attitude towards her students) summarily informed me that the name of a specific deity had to be capitalized. I didn't mind the information, but I did mind being given this piece of data along with a good deal of disdainful condescension.

I don't use profanity in my stories. I even discovered while writing one of my earlier stories that a certain five-letter word referring to one's posterior doesn't mean that in some English-speaking countries. I have learned to delete that word from my L&C writing to prevent unnecessarily offending people. To throw in my two cents' worth, I agree with the non-rude word policy. I understand that others don't, and that's okay. We're all individuals who belong to a community, and as such we need some standards just to keep order.

I'll give it a shot, LabRat. Using an asterisk in place of the vowels in obscenities is just like our writing "the f word" or "the s word" in this thread. Everyone here knows exactly which words we're referring to, so shouldn't we just use the real words?

No, of course not. Knowing what word we're referencing is NOT the same as having to read it. Using the asterisk in dialog is a way to indicate the language the character is using without anyone having to actually read it.

If reading obscenities spoken by a character doesn't bother people, they probably won't see the difference that removal of the vowels makes, but it's there. It's approximately the same difference as hearing "shoot" vs hearing the actual word that "shoot" stands for.

Then again, maybe it's just me. I'm very visual, so I don't necessarily read aloud every word in my head. When I see a curse word with the vowels missing, I don't pronounce it in my head, any more than I try to pronounce Klingon names in Star Trek novels. I sort of use a mental place-holder for those names, recognizing who they refer to without bothering to "say" the name mentally. I do something similar with the curse words that are missing their vowels.

For people who feel that "it's obvious when reading what the word is intended to be," an asterisk won't affect their reading of the dialog. But for some people who prefer not to read that language, it allows a mental "out-of-sight, out-of-mind" sleight-of-hand.

That probably isn't clearer than it was before, but I don't know how to explain it better.

Thanks for that, Terry and, now that you mention it, I do seem to recall hearing something of the same at the time. I'd forgotten that.

That's probably very true. It still doesn't seem quite the same thing as 'the f word' for me - it seems more of several lengths further along from that, more explicit than 'the f word', taking it to several next degrees, but I think you're right that it's probably all down to how we view the word in the first place as to whether it works as a tactic for us or not.

I'm obviously very firmly in this group, which is probably no surprise as in real life I'm afraid I'm extremely casual with language which would make a sailor's parrot blush.

So you're right in that I do tend to read the whole word, my brain not being fooled by asterisk substitution at all.

LabRat

FWIW, using "the S word" is a bit more ambiguous - my kids seem to think that "the S word" means "stupid". I've just always figured, if there is anyone who doesn't know what it means, I'd rather not be the one who tells them. Innocence is a vanishing thing, these days, so I don't want to be the one removing one more tiny bit.

And for some people "shoot" is a perfectly acceptable word, whereas the real s-word is distasteful. Those who are comfortable with mentally translating it can do so, but those who aren't don't have to tune anything out.

Also, I think there can be a difference in perception between hearing something and reading it. Something that your ear has learned to ignore can still be startling to your eyes. And vice-versa. Dunno why. And of course everyone's got different comfort levels with different words. There are words I know and sometimes use, that I try not to use in front of my kids.

I'll shut up now

Except that reminds me, I have a policy against telling my kids to shut up. I'll say "hush up" instead. The alternative words that people come up with can be fascinating.

Okay, I'll hush up now

PJ

One last comment about asterisks: in certain dictionary/spelling programs, they function as global wild-cards, which means they can stand for as many characters as needed. Being familiar with using asterisks that way, I can read sh*t as shot, shoot, or shadowiest, and f*ck can be frick, frack, or firetruck--as well as the curse words they stand for.

In view of the recent discussion, I thought this might be of interest. Personally, I think with examiners like this one, is it any wonder our kids are leaving school with linguistic skills barely above monkey. :rolleyes:

[Source: BBC News Website]

LabRat

I'm an extremely auditory person. To see it is to read it is to hear it. Asterisks make no difference.


Elisabeth

Adding my thoughts to this interesting conversation...

We are a worldwide community here with a unique culture, built around a PG, family oriented show. Part of that culture includes the use of beta readers on the message boards and general editors for the archive, and I believe that has resulted in the generally high quality of fiction that is written by this fandom.

When I first began reading stories here (way back when the show was still on the air), I found an immediate sense for the stories I most enjoyed (WAFFY, B-plot driven, revelation) and concluded by the sheer number of stories written with these plots and the number of responses those stories generated, that many people in this fandom also enjoyed those types of stories. It seems natural that this would be the case because we were drawn to this fandom by a show that included a romantic element.

Certainly, though, there are other stories to tell. As a writer, it is respectful to consider the audience for whom you are writing. Since we are a worldwide community, it is likely that there are people with divergent opinions, and it is considerate to warn them of the type of content you intend to write about. Since there is a seperate place for writers interested in exploring mature themes, it is considerate to post those types of stories there.

Adding information in a story summary or at the beginning of a post to let potential readers know that the story may not be of interest to them is respectful. After all, writers enjoy positive feedback. Writers should want to seek out potential readers who are interested in what they have to write. It benefits both parties to steer unintended audiences away.

Deciding the line between PG-13 and beyond is ultimately open to interpretation. The culture of this community is different than the culture of other communities, and the line may move more conservatively on that issue here.

Several years ago at my school, two 14-year old girls did a History Day project on Frida Kahlo. Their exhibit contained examples of her art and analyzed their interpretation of it. One example they used was "The Broken Column". Their project won at both the school site and school district competitions. When they submitted it to the county competition, it was pulled before judging, deemed "pornographic." The county superintendent of schools happened to walk into the exhibit hall before the public exhibition and felt it was inappropriate for 14 year olds to be dealing with such issues and didn't want the public to feel like the county school board supported it. Two communities had deemed the project award winning, another viewed it a different way. Ultimately, I had to accept that it benefited the community at large to prevent people from unwittingly being confronted with something they might interpret as offensive.

In considering the use of curse words, a writer again has to consider the community. Is the use of the actual word integral to the story? If so, warnings and/or posting to the nfic side are respectful. But if not, writers can use the power of language to convey a wide range of imagery and emotion without having to resort to specific four letter words. Beta readers and general editors can help authors develop more powerful writing styles by challenging them to develop wider vocabularies. And this, as I said, ultimately contributes to the quality of the fandom's writing as a whole.

The culture of this community is why have I have stayed here for so many years. Intelligent conversation, respectful debate, excellent fiction writing - we're really lucky to have it all.