Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Related Why is the smut locked in?

Really interesting DS, that would limit the friction and explain alot. Perhaps the G and Nfic groups in this community are to small to split and this forces them to compromise to a greater degree.

Are sites like fanfiction.net mixed? I think I recall some Harlequin romance stuff over there, but I can't read their FAQ.

Fanfiction.net forbids anything with a rating above PG-13.

Also, I'm not sure about HP message boards, but they may also have Nfic on them--I've just never been on one.

I think it's fair to say that the L&C fandom has always been a place where people go that extra mile to keep things running smoothly. Another example is the existence of GEs for the fanfic archive. I gather such a phenomenon is pretty rare in other fandoms, yet here we introduced it fairly early on, and have maintained it as a way of ensuring a basic standard of readability.

Yvonne

The HP fandom is so monstrously huge that it doesn't do anything any one way. Trying to get even one small corner of it to agree on something is like trying to herd cats.

Yes, there are whole HP sites devoted to adult fics. Many of these sprang up in the wake of Fanfiction.net's decision to ban NC-17 material some years back, and security at these sites tightened up somewhat further after a flurry of C&D letters were sent on behalf of JK Rowling and Warner Bros. to various sites that housed explicit material.

That said, there are also plenty of HP archives where pgfic and nfic are mixed. Some use the "I am over 18" button for fics of higher ratings, and some don't. Some use the same system in use here, where you have to write specifically and request a password or authorization. Some don't have any security beyond an old-fashioned rating and the occasional content warning. And then there are Yahoo Groups and LiveJournal and a zillion message boards, all of which are maintained by different people with different ideas about what constitutes adult material and what, if anything, should be done to protect the fandom's minor readers from it.

Personally, I find the L&C fandom's relative consensus on the subject very refreshing

The nfic already has its own archive for completed stories, which is effectively the same thing as the "adult" archives in the HP fandom. Yes, you do have to have a password, but you also have to have one to get into many of the HP archives, as well as similar archives I've encountered in other fandoms.

I don't know what other fanfiction you read, and it is certainly true that different fandoms handle things differently, but in my experience, there just isn't anything about the system here that is especially unusual or noteworthy. I can think of five fandoms off the top of my head where I've had to send off for passwords to access adult material. I think it has less to do with the actual content and more to do with the culture of that particular fandom. Some are simply more conservative than others; I would even venture to guess (since I certainly can't prove it) that the more conservative (vanilla) the content of the stories, the more likely the fandom is to take an aggressive approach to protecting minors from adult material. The Jane Austen fandom, which I referenced earlier, is one that will surely never see a C&D letter since the canon is in the public domain, but the vast majority of the adult fic is password protected. It is simply the preference of the fandom that it be handled that way.

Sorry if I've rambled on - it's an interesting discussion

Caroline

Password? There's still a password? I thought our accounts were just added to a list of those who can enter that section after getting approval from Annette. I haven't needed a password in more than a year. I can't even remember what it was when there was one.

Thank you Caroline, I bow before you obvious superior knowledge of fanfic.

Lois and Clark is the first fandom I’ve actually given a chance. Before fanfic were artefacts I run into searching for other things(often porn, which might be why I associate fanfic with smut ).
And by my experience what is behind lock and key here is extremely innocent compared to what is immediately accessible in cyberspace. No people I know would find it offensive, and since it so well written I couldn’t see how a greater exposure would harm the community. But when I was told that there often were separate communites for G and Nfic, it made me associate this to the "ship war" thing and it occurred to me that it could be the same phenomena, that some find smut with their favourite ship unacceptable, in the same way they find the wrong ship unacceptable.


Under what circumstance does this Cease and Desist stuff occur? Isn’t Rowlins famous for approving of fanfic? And what change when the authors form a another community?

Roger, I believe these boards do use that procedure. The password I was referring to was at the nfic archive, where I still have to enter a password. Or maybe that's changed and I just didn't know it? I haven't been reading much fic lately, so it's definitely possible. And I think Zoomway's boards have a password as well, though I go there so rarely, I'm not sure I know what it is. Anyway, it's effectively the same thing - you still have to take that extra step of e-mailing someone and making an age statement before being allowed access.

Arawn,

LOL! Yes, my store of utterly useless knowledge is impressive indeed.

Ah, well see - that just depends on who you know. I assure you that practically everyone I know IRL would find it HUGELY offensive. Fan fiction is my deepest, darkest secret.

And yes, I'm sure that many of the fandoms that decided to separate out the nfic were faced with dissenters and resulting board kerfuffles, though any that might have occurred in this fandom were before my time. But I have a firm faith in fandom's ability to kick up a fuss over just about anything. Ultimately though, as LabRat and others have said, the decision rests with the site owners, since they're the ones who have to deal with the hassles.

From what I can recall, as it was some years back now, all that changed was that security tightened up or the sites changed their addresses. I don't remember hearing about any sites actually shutting down because of the letters. Although only a few sites received letters, however, a great many more were inspired to tighten security. And yes, JKR is generally supportive of fan fic, or at least has said that she doesn't actively oppose it. These letters even say this and make clear that they are not opposing all fan fiction but are specifically concerned with sexually explicit material being made readily available to minors.

As for the circumstances, I really don't know what it was that called these particular sites to the attention of TPTB. If I knew then, it's been lost to time.

Does Warner Brothers own Superman and/or L&C? I can't remember.

Caroline

Just to clarify, even though I hate to back that far up, but I was away on a business trip and am now catching up

I never meant to imply smutfic was inherently illegal. There have most certainly, however, been laws to prevent disseminating smutfic and various materials considered obscene to minors, which is what I was trying to talk about and quoted from the usdoj website.

My other point was that you shouldn't necessarily use sites already in existence as examples for what is legal. Just because a site is in existence, does not mean that it is not open to prosecution. It is impossible for law enforcement to be that thorough. Absolutely impossible.

Do I make better sense now?

I don't think anyone's really mentioned this, but these systems weren't created yesterday. There was a time, when the show was airing, that there were significant enough numbers of young fans (under 18-ish) that they had their own webpages, groups, even archives if I remember rightly (and oh wow, there are some web pages still in existence: The Lois & Clark Kal-El Club - well, sort of still in existence)

I wasn't actively involved when these decisions were made, but I'm sure that had some influence on it all.

And I was an under-age folc and I didn't apply for passwords till I was 18... but maybe that's because I'm a good girl

Helga

Really? I don’t know what “Transfer of Obscene Material to Minors” means but I seriously doubt its smutfic that they are referring to. As I said the prosecution must show that you intentionally targeted children with obscenity. And now we are talking about hardcore porn. Those embroiled in legal matters are also always commercial sites I’ve been told. And written erotica also enjoys a greater protection under American free speech then pictures and movies.
There are plenty of free American erotic stories sites with heavier content and less protection then this place which led me too the conclusion that this place has little if anything to fear from American law. Suing or prosecuting this place for obscenity (with warning that the site host adult content) should be just about impossible and a court ruling otherwise well that is just.. far out.

True, but if the hypothetical transgression is so widespread and so much more extreme, it’s a reasonable assumption. (And the US has the largest porn industry in the world which suggests they are not that sensitive.)


Anyway I haven’t had a chance to explore it, but Caroline made me consider the cease and desist thing, copyright holder apparently can chose to hunt communities when the fanfic is smutty and receive a attention, and they have greater legal opportunities to act, not on grounds of obscenity but infringement.


BTW Aria I’m a great fan of your videos and taste in music. You made me discover a lot of artists I didn’t know about.

But, as LabRat and others have pointed out over and over, the law is far from the only reason these systems developed. Helga's right; when this fandom started there were a lot of under-18s around. There were - and still are - a lot of parents of young kids. For those reasons, people wanted to have the adult fic that they wrote available only through a system that meant there was control over who had access.

In the beginning, it was distributed by means of an email list - you got it if, and only if, you wrote to Debby Stark promising that you were over 18 and that you would not redistribute it to anyone. Again, you may say that anyone can claim to be over 18; that's true, but - as LabRat said - those emails may be kept as proof in case of irate parents complaining that someone's sent their little darling adult fic. And, yes, it happened. And, yes, those emails have come in useful a time or two.

So it's protecting site owners against complaints from parents, and protecting authors of stories who don't particularly want their adult fic - whether you view it as 'vanilla' or otherwise - available freely at the click of a button.

But you've had this explained to you ad nauseam now - I know that many of the posts in this thread are now repeating themselves. So I'm wondering what's left that you don't understand about the reasoning? The system's not going to change - particularly as there seems to be no demand at all for it to change, other than your own suggestion. Is this now a case of flogging an extremely dead horse?


Wendy

Arawn, don't assume that because there are many porn sites (unfortunately) in the USA that suggests people aren't sensitive about it. That's like saying, "Oh, well, no big deal... We have free speech laws so it's just perfectly fine for the KKK to march in the streets and burn crosses on people's lawns." Yes, It's legal, but most Americans don't like it at all. Well, actually it's not legal to burn crosses on people's lawns, but they can still do it in a public venue.

(Oh, and don't get me wrong. I, like so many others (including you) who have commented, would NEVER consider anything on this site to be porn.)

And since the laws against obscenity, as far as I can tell, doesn’t demand this level of constrained access, I failed to see how it could be a reason at all.

Concerning why the current system is in place? Not much really, but there are several other discussions going on that I find interesting.

So I noticed, am I not allowed to discuss the subject then? Because if I don’t I will of course desist. Really Wendy, I’m not storming any barricades, even if I've apparantly given you that impression.

Not IMO. Caroline’s posts that were very late in the thread has done the most to enlighten me.

1.The use of Password protection isn’t unusual by fanfic standards apparently (which was my impression)
2.Minor issues can cause a lot of friction in a community that are rather passionate about their beliefs, separation keeps this down. (Labrat mentioned this originally) (I’m starting to understand that too ).
3.Copyright holders can chose to take legal action if they find the fanfic offensive.

Arawn, I haven't commented because to me, the password isn't a problem. I also think that as Europeans, you and I must realize that Americans tend to be so much more touchy on the subject of sexuality than Europeans usually are, and tend to find it so much more offensive.

I'm very, very glad that LNC nfic is readily available to people such as me and you, and I very much want to help make sure that those people who manage the sites making these stories available don't get in trouble for it. If a password is the price for that, so be it.

One thing pains me, though - that stories that were written as brilliant nfic are locked away and get reposted as watered-down gfic. Yes, that does bother me. Still, under the circumstances, I guess we must accept that, too.

And let me say, finally, that I completely agree with everyone who says that your posts are always so interesting and thought-provoking, Arawn. I found your link to that text about why fanfic is so smutty absolutely brilliant.

Ann

Wendy, I have the utmost respect for the dead, horses included, and make a sincere attempt to avoid flogging them . However, I'm pretty sure I've posted more to this thread than I have to any other on these boards, including my own story threads. I find discussions of fandom culture and politics interesting, and IMO, that is what this has been. It has remained civil and intelligent, even when the posters have held differing opinions. I've consistently had the impression that Arawn was not so much agitating for change (which, as you say, would obviously be futile, there being little to no support for the idea) as attempting to understand how the current system came about and why it was being maintained.

I don't doubt that this is all familiar territory for those of you who have been in the fandom since its inception, but shouldn't those of us more lately arrived have the opportunity to discuss it, so long as we have the interest and the discussion remains polite?

Best,

Caroline

You'd think. <g> But, of course, logic often fails to apply in this kind of case and some segments of American society can be very sensitive to such content and issues. (Some segments of society all over the world can be sensitive to these issues. I think it's also a mistake to assume that non-Americans are 100% more liberal in that regard.)

Witness the howling outrage over the 'bared breast' at the Superbowl incident a little bit back.

Actually, there was a thread on that and some of the posters had interesting things to say about that one. It's worth looking up.

And, of course, when you're talking about a country of individuals, there's never going to be a 100% concenus on what you get sensitive about. There will be some who will get equally outraged over the Superbowl incident and the porn industry. Some who'll despise the porn industry, but not see anything really outrageous about the accidental uncovering of a breast for a few seconds on TV. Some who'll find neither offensive. And all shades of opinion inbetween.

So you can't really infer that one impacts on the other or that there's any real connection between the two, I don't think.

ETA: Here's the link for that Superbowl thread, for anyone interested:

Wardrobe Malfunction?

LabRat

But if they weren't gfic-ified (don't you love my new word), they couldn't go into the archive. I am first in line to read good nfic, but good stories are good even without the nfic scenes and it would be disappointing if they weren't archived. I know Annesplace has an nfic archive, and I hope they are posted there as well, but lcfanfic.com is the primary place where our stories are saved, and it would be sad if these weren't included.

Oh, absolutely. The point about converting nfic stories to PG13 versions has always been to provide as much choice as possible to FoLCs.

Therefore, you can read the nfic version if that's your choice, either here on the mbs as it's posted or at Annesplace if you prefer reading completed stories. Or you can read the PG13 version on the Fanfic Archive, or, again, here on the mbs if you like following a story as it's posted in segments.

If authors didn't provide us with both nfic and PG13 versions of their stories, think of all those FoLCs who just don't like reading nfic (or who are too young to), who'd miss out on some terrific stories. They deserve the chance to read them, too.

Plus...you get more fdk.

Win/win.

LabRat

Caroline said:

Oh, absolutely, and I certainly had no intention of attempting to shut down discussion! I'm sorry if I gave that impression. It's just that I did get the impression that Arawn was continuing to argue that the system here should be changed. If, as he now says, he's not and is simply participating in a more general discussion, then I happily withdraw the flogged horse

And, yes, it's got to be a fascinating discussion for those who weren't around in the beginning. I know that for those of us who've grown up with it we're well used to it and it's almost a surprise to realise that relative newcomers may think it's strange.

That's the thing about fandom cultures: you get inculcated in them and then can't possibly imagine any different ways of doing things. That's one of the potential pitfalls of moving into new fandoms, because everyone does things differently. What I found strange at first about the fandom I've moved into were things like the lack of any centralised fic archive where everything goes (which I understand now because there are so many different characters and variations of fic type), the fact that some people will just post fic to their journals and not anywhere else at all, so you get to find out about it, if at all, by word of mouth/recommendations, and that it's considered perfectly acceptable to post story instalments with gaps of months between them - even, in some cases, a year or more. In the L&C fandom, as I was telling someone last night, that would be considered a dead story


Wendy

You know, I was going to rewrite this quote using either non-judgemental words, or words that judged in the opposite direction. But I think I won't bother.

Seriously, TOC, I do not understand you. The same person who has positive conniptions every time anything remotely deathfic-like is posted (despite in-your-face warnings from the authors) objects to some people wanting to avoid nfic, but appreciating the option of reading versions of those stories they are comfortable with?

Does this really not seem the tiniest bit hypocritical to you? Or are you just that unable to empathize with other views?