Hello all,

I debated whether or not to start this thread, since it is pretty controversial. But the topic fascinated me so much that I decided to go ahead and do so, but also to issue some warnings in order to try to avoid offending anyone.

It is not my intent either to proselytize or to blaspheme; but I could see where readers might perceive the post as an attempt to do one or the other. I apologize in advance for any offense that may be caused by the post. I do not wish to cause offense in either direction, but simply to conduct a semi-scholarly analysis comparing what C. S. Lewis called the "true myth" of Christianity and the LNC mythos; specifically, to consider Superman as a type of Christ-figure. If you find such a topic offensive, please stop reading here. I will leave some blank lines so that anyone who does not wish to read more can avoid doing so accidentally.

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There. If you are reading this far into my post, then I will assume that you find this topic interesting and are not put off or offended by the topic itself.

Although I certainly do not presume to have a mind anywhere near as sharp as that of C. S. Lewis, I do aspire to follow in his footsteps in some regards. Like him, I am a believing Christian who does not feel threatened by the similarities between stories found in the Bible and those outside of it. Nor do I consider it blasphemous to exam the Bible critically as literature. The more I thought about it, the more similarities I found between Superman and Jesus. I'd be interested to read if others have found additional ones, as well as any other thoughts you may have on the matter. Some of the similarities are clearly stronger than others; a few might be considered a bit of a stretch.

For the purposes of the analysis, I will write as if both the Bible and Lois and Clark were true. Whether you consider either one, both or neither to be true in RL is entirely up to you.

Similarities (presented in roughly chronological order) :
- Neither Jesus nor Superman came into the world in the way every other sentient being did.
- Neither had a human biological father.
- Both Jesus' and Superman's arrivals were heralded by a light in the sky which was followed by people (Magi, the Kents).
- Both were able to "pass" as mere humans, but each was much more than just a human.
- Both were able to heal people using extraordinary measures.
- Both were able to perceive things about others that no one else did.
- Both succeeded in "hating the deed but loving the doer" -- both were civil, to the extent possible, even to people who flagrantly violated the L/law. (Yes, there were exceptions to this in both cases -- to people who threatened Lois or who had Kryptonite, or to the scribes, Pharisees, and money changers. But in each case, these were the exceptions rather than the rule.)
- Both used their powers for the good, to help others, even to the point of being willing to die for people who didn't even know them or who sought to do them harm (Ching is the clearest example I can think of from LNC).
- Both also realized and utilized the power of words to try to try to work good in people's lives.
- Both showed their true natures to only a few people during their lifetimes (Jesus on the mountaintop, and only the Kents and Lois knew Clark's alter ego and saw him doing Superman-type things as Clark).
- There was a death-and-resurrection with both of them (although Clark's was, admittedly, staged, in TOGoM).
- Both were able to travel through objects others could not cross, although neither displayed that ability often (Jesus, post-resurrection, suddenly appearing to the disciples in the locked room, and Clark in DToSC going through the force field).
- Both were able to fly (Jesus during his ascension).

Differences:
- Superman only saves people's bodies; although Jesus did heal people physically, his primary concern was to save people's souls. Consequently,
---- Superman's salvation is temporary; Jesus' is permanent.
---- Superman may need to save a given individual (especially Lois!) multiple times. Jesus' act of salvation was once and for all people.
- Neither Clark himself nor anyone else ever claimed Superman to be God or the son of God; they realized that he was a mere mortal, with all the limitations inherent therein.

If you wish to reply in the same vein as this post, by all means do so here; but if you wish to veer into a discussion of religion per se, I would be happy do to that, too, via PM or e-mail.

Cheers,
Lynn

Interesting read.

One addition with the dying/back to life thing: Clark was very nearly disintegrated in the doohickey with the NKers. You could call that almost death/back to life. Maybe not 'really most sincerely dead' but pretty close following laws he didn't understand and certainly didn't agree with because it was the law.

Ditto nearly dying in HIWTHI.

Just a thought to go along with that.

Good point -- he was "mostly dead" then, wasn't he?

Cheers,
Lynn

Interesting post. I'm a non-religious person myself, but that doesn't mean that the comparison between Jesus and Superman isn't valid.

I would like to point out that since Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster (the creators of Superman) were Jewish, it is not so likely that they wanted their creation to be compared with Jesus. Indeed, I have read someplace that Jerry Siegel was inspired by the story of Samson, the great strongman from the Old Testament, when he created Superman. Maybe that's why Superman has traditionally been far more afraid of a relationship with Lois than LnC Lois has ever been afraid of a relationship with LnC Clark - you know, because Siegel's original creation thought that Lois was his Delilah?

Ann

Hi Ann,

Thank you. I figure that for the purposes this thread, one's own personal beliefs really don't matter.

Probably not, then. Then again, one thing about the creative process is that if you achieve something really worthwhile creatively, it will take on a life of its own and different people will be able to bring things to it that you did not necessarily intend when you created it.

I never knew that. That is fascinating! Fortunately, they made Clark a lot smarter than Samson appeared to be. I don't know whether it is true or not, but I've long thought of Samson as the origin of the stereotype for the "dumb jock". (To paraphrase a certain villainous time traveler, "Hello! Duh! Delilah betrays you twice, and then you tell her the TRUTH about the source of your strength? Can you say, 'galactically stupid'?!?") I'm glad that Lois and Clark (finally!) did manage to get together in LNC. That is one of the myriad reasons I prefer it over the more traditional interpretations of Superman.

cheers,
Lynn

Clark/Superman helped/rescued people but I can't think of a single instance where he actually healed someone. **

As for a glimpse into the origins of Superman and how Jerry Siegel envisioned the character... Superman - Man of Tomorrow

**ETA: Yes, he turned back time in the original Superman movie to undo Lois' death, but that wasn't a healing, it was turning back time.

I was thinking specifically of Clark's cauterizing Luthor's wound in Fly Hard. OK, maybe "treating" would be a better word than "healing" in Clark's case...

OTOH, it could also be argued that Clark reviving Lois in AtAI was reminiscent of Jesus raising Lazarus. (Again, I realize that the comparison is imperfect, since Lois only appeared to be dead.)

cheers,
Lynn

I just read the letter. Fascinating indeed! I'm glad we have the Clark Kent we all grew to love, but it would have been interesting to see that other development as well. Hmmm...Alternate universe fanfic, anyone? ;-)

cheers,
Lynn

There was the guy in the ep that had the psycho guy with the snakes and the pins and the wedding planner from... yeah. He used the base of a light pole [or something] to shock his heart... in the healing genre. He also does a lot of life saving in general.

Some random thoughts:

The voice-over at the beginning of the first Superman movie certainly drew parallels between Superman and Jesus--I can't recall the exact words but Jor-El says something like "to you I have sent my only son." It comes through in other parts of that movie too. In Superman II he must sacrifice himself (or at least the life he wants) to save the world. I found the parallel so strong that I was uncomfortable with it.

Although Siegel and Shuster were not Christian, they would have been familiar with the idea of a Messiah. However, I never got that parallel during my limited reading of Superman comics. (Comic books never had enough story in them for me.)

LnC intentionally presents a much more human Superman. I find it interesting, however, that many of the fanfics in the archive present Clark as an extremely charismatic figure, and Superman even more so. Whether or not you believe that Jesus was the Son of God, the historical Jesus must have been an extremely charismatic person to draw the following he did during his lifetime. (As distinguished from those who became Christians based on the accounts of his crucifixion/death/resurrection.) Superman is not, however, without sin. "Superman doesn't lie" except that Clark lies constantly to hide who he is. He also makes human mistakes. And he depends heavily on his human parents for advice--presumably Jesus did not do so. So the comparison falls apart considerably in the version of Superman that so many of us love. But it's a good topic for discussion.

I read somewhere that Superman was an analogy of Moses (set adrift in the bulrushes in hopes of getting to a better life). But I have to admit that your comparison with Jesus Christ has a lot more parallels.

And thanks for bringing up this very thought-provoking and interesting topic.

If I may chip in my opinions...

Like Iolanthe said, I'm pretty sure Shuster and Siegel based Superman off of Moses. However, bear in mind that Superman has since had 70 years or so to develop in predominantly Christian country, and Joe and Jerry didn't exactly have exclusive author control. Moses himself was/is a messianic figure, and so it's very easy to make the transition to Christ.

Personally, I've always been annoyed by the movie's attempts to forge a Superman/Christ parallel. The one thing they do have in common, however, is the messianic archetype. This is not a coincidence; Superman was, AFAIK, intended as a messiah from the beginning: A powerful figure, saving helpless people from oppression and crime. The difference is in the messianic type: Secular vs. Religious.

As Lynn stated, Superman saves people physically but not spiritually. What bothers me is when people try to blur that line or cross it. Heck, it's the very reason my Mom was uncomfortable with me watching the cartoons! o_O

Everybody here has made interesting and worthy points.

Personally I'm pretty dead certain that I have read somewhere that Samson served as an inspiration for Superman, but that most certainly doesn't mean that Moses couldn't have been another inspiration. In fact, it seems most likely that Moses, too, gave Siegel some ideas. I want to point out, however, that Moses was primarily a leader, leading his people out of the desert, toward the land of Canaan. I don't see Superman as that kind of leader. Indeed, Superman is a lot more like Jesus, because Jesus wasn't the kind of leader that Moses was. Yes, Jesus certainly had many followers, but it wasn't as if all those who were Jewish and lived in Palestine at that time followed Jesus as he led them somewhere.



Everybody was following Moses. Superman isn't "leading his people" like that.

C-mom said that Clark "sins", because he sometimes lies. Interestingly, the Gospel of Mark says that Jesus also lied sometimes, or more precisely, Jesus "evaded", just like Clark. I don't have the strength to look it up, sorry, but if you read the Gospel of Mark yourself you will see that Jesus "evades" several times. He asks people he has healed not to tell others who has healed them, for example. And he doesn't want to admit that he is the Messiah. It is almost as if the Jesus we meet in the Gospel of Mark was trying to protect his secret identity.

Ann

In the latest Superman movie, Superman was very clearly a Christ figure. It was particularly obvious when Luthor tortured and battered him so badly. I couldn't bear to see Mel Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ", but I thought that the torture that Superman had to endure in "Superman Returns" was meant to remind us both of Gibson's movie and of Jesus' suffering in general. Jesus had to suffer to save humanity and overcome the power of death, and Superman had to suffer in order to eventually save humanity and overcome the power of Luthor. The idea that a man can triumph through pain and death is a particularly Christian idea.

Ann

This is my third post in a row. Oh well.

I don't think that TOGOM is a very important part of the Superman mythology, and I don't think we can use it to prove that Superman died and was resurrected just like Jesus (particularly since Superman didn't die in TOGOM).

However, in the nineties there was a long comic book arc, The Death of Superman and The Return of Superman, where Superman officially died. I read it, and I remember that I was devastated. I particularly remember reading one comic book which ended by saying something like this: There is no information on when or if there will be another issue of the Superman comics.

After a hiatus of several weeks, maybe two or three months, the Superman comics returned. At first they were back without Superman himself, but eventually, Superman was raised from the dead -yes, really, though I don't remember if we were told exactly how it happened. When he came back, he had long Jesus-hair, to boot.

So I guess we can say that, yes, Superman was raised from the dead just like Jesus.

Ann

He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy...

They kill off most comic book heroes now and again - I'm slightly out of touch, but Superman has been "killed" at least twice (in the Death of Superman arc it turned out he was in a healing coma indistinguishable from death), I'm pretty sure that Batman is currently dead, Captain America was dead for several months recently, etc. etc.

That's an absolutely fascinating separation of the two halves of the Superman/Clark personality, cookiesmom. One that had never occurred to me to notice until now.

LabRat

You're right. I had forgotten about that, at least consciously. Maybe my some part of me remembered that voiceover and that was what sparked the idea for me.

Good point. Although I hadn't explicitly thought of this with my list, it could be included under the bulleted item that Clark "was a mere mortal, with all the limitations inherent therein." In the Christian worldview, it is believed, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23).

Very true.

A fascinating post, cookiesmom. Thanks! :-)

cheers,
Lynn S. M.

You are very welcome. And thanks to all who have responded in kind -- with analyses that have been thoughtful and have been able to discuss Christianity in a way that is respectful of everyone's beliefs. So far, there hasn't been a flame in sight. That speaks volumes about the FoLCs here. And to think I had been so nervous about starting this thread -- I guess I can change out of my fireproof clothing now. ;-)

cheers,
Lynn S. M.

I'll second that. And the discussion of other possible inspirations for Superman is fascinating. One common theme among them is that from what I've read in this thread so far, at least, everyone who has posted ideas about the inspiration has cited a Biblical character.

I agree. Clark was eager to use his powers for good, but he had no desire to be a leader, and was also very uncomfortable with the adulation he received. While Moses balked at the leadership task, he did take on the responsibility, along with his brother Aaron.

What a cool take on it! I think that is precisely what he was trying to do, although I had never thought of putting it in those words before.

cheers,
Lynn

I never saw that movie, or even advertisements for it. When did it come out?

I never saw Passion, either; I really don't like watching violent entertainment, even when the violence is historical, non-gratuitous, and serves a greater good in the plot.

cheers,
Lynn

This thread is turning into a lively discussion, with much to respond about.

I am new to the fandom, so my impression may be erroneous; but in other fandoms I have been in, if something were in the canon, it was accepted as part of that universe. In FoLCdom, how is it determined what is or is not important in the mythology, other than its impact on the rest of the mythos?


true, it was Clark and not Superman that supposedly dies. I'll agree that that bulleted item was one of the ones that was more of a stretch than the others in my original post.

Wow. That must have been devastating to the Superman fans who read it.

I guess so, if one is willing to look outside of the LnC interpretation of him.

cheers,
Lynn

I'm certainly not claiming that Superman *is* the Messiah; only that there are a lot of parallels between him and Jesus. I'm coming at this from the perspective of a literary character analysis.

Clark's repeatedly lying has been brought up already int his thread. Do you have other acts of his in mind as well when you call him a very naughty boy?

cheers,
Lynn

Oh yes, there is one other similarity that I thought of but forgot to mention in my first post:

It was foretold that through Jesus/Superman a new, peaceful society will be ushered into existence, the likes of which the world has never known. (utopia, the thousand years of peace)

cheers,
Lynn

Nope - turning Clark Kent/Superman into a quasi god-Jesus figure totally kills his sexual appeal. It neuters him. Puts him in cold fish territory. Sucks the romance right out of the story. Totally weirds it up.

Nope. Never, ever, ever.



c. (apologising for having such a strong opinion but really.... CK/S is not at all sacred , although when he's good he's just a tad profane )

cc - I'm heartily seconding everything you said. I know there are parallels but... To me it feels squicky and sacrilegious on so many levels to equate the two. Or maybe I just feel that way because I write nfic.

Originally posted by Lynn S. M.:

Superman Returns was released in 2006, with Brandon Routh as the lead character. Brandon's Superman was defintely Christ-like in many ways, in my opinion, or at least the movie tried to make him that way. You can read about the movie here .

Originally posted by Lynn S. M.:

I wasn't trying to imply that TOGOM isn't important to the LnC mythos, because I think that this episode is one of the most important ones of the LnC:TNAoS TV series.

I was trying to say, instead, that LnC is a small part of a much, much larger Superman mythos. In the LnC universe TOGOM is very important, but in the context of the all-encompassing Superman mythos the impact of TOGOM is all but non-existent.

The larger Superman universe, minus the comics

Originally posted by Carol Malo:

I don't think that LnC's Superman is much like Jesus at all. Dean Cain's incarnation of the hero is much too robust, muscular, happy and smiling to be particularly Jesus-like at all.



Really. There are differences. Many, many differences. Large ones.

Soulful slender Brandon Routh, with his gaze directed heavenwards, was a much more Jesus-like Superman.



Brandon Routh's Superman. Not like Dean Cain's.

The most Jesus-like thing that I can think about when it comes to LnC's Superman is that he is supposed to found Utopia, which can be seen as a form of Heaven on Earth.

Ann

Well, the death of Superman was still groundbreaking when it happened. To my knowledge, no major comic book hero had been killed and resurrected at the time when Superman was killed and resurrected in the 1990s. The huge success of that story arc may be the reason why so many comic book heroes are killed and resurrected nowadays.

(The first major fictional hero who was killed and then resurrected may have been Sherlock Holmes. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle grew tired of his creation and offed him in a huge waterfall in Switzerland, I think. Fans protested vociferously, Conan Doyle was not so successful with his non-Sherlock-genre writing, and well, there you have it.)

Ann

I can certainly appreciate that position; in fact, that is precisely why I had put the "filler text" lines into my original post. I had figured that it might not sit well with everyone.

FWIW, by considering Superman as a "christ figure," I absolutely do NOT intend to imply that he is in any way divine or worthy of being worshiped. Nor do I mean to reduce Jesus' supreme sacrifice to the level of "snatch a falling Lois from the air and set her down gently". My intent was simply to do a compare/contrast of the Biblical Jesus and the LnC version of Superman. (Ann pointed out in another post, which I hope to have time to address soon, that LnC only one part of the Superman mythos. That is definitely true. But I was confining my original analysis to the LnC aspect of it, partly because I am not well-versed in the other venues for Superman, and partly because I know that LnC actually contradicts the greater Superman realm in some major ways. (For example, whether or not Superman was an orphan.))

In any event, I once again apologize for any offense which this thread may cause.

- Lynn

Reichenbach Falls, to be precise. That was in the "The Final Problem". He was resurrected in "The Adventure of the Empty House". His explanation for his survival and subsequent hiatus is often seen to be pretty lame; but readers were so excited by having new SH stories available that they tended to be pretty forgiving of that.

cheers,
Lynn

Thanks for the heads-up. Perhaps I'll add it to my Netflix queue.

Ah, now I understand. I had been sticking to the LnC universe partly because its the one I know fairly well and partly because, since it contradicts the greater mythos in some major ways, it made sense to me to stay within its confines rather than trying to reconcile the differences.

In the LnC universe TOGOM is very important, but in the context of the all-encompassing Superman mythos the impact of TOGOM is all but non-existent.

That's an interesting take. I rather suspect, though, that if Jesus had been the somber, stilted, almost cardboard character that he is often depicted as, he would never have had a following in his lifetime. Certainly, children would never have wanted to run up to see him. Nor would the folks who are considered by many to be the dregs of society (prostitutes, tax collectors) -- people who are not know for their hyper-religiosity.

As for physical robustness, I would imagine that a carpenter, who surely would have had to have schlepped large pieces of heavy wooden furniture, would probably be able to match Dean Cain muscle for muscle.

I certainly do not deny that. To add another major difference to my list: Dan Brown aside, Jesus was not known to have had any romantic interest in anyone. (Although it does say in the new testament that he was tempted in EVERY way common to man.)

BTW, I like the pics you used.

I agree with you that that is a strong similarity.

Thanks for adding some interesting points to the conversation. I am thoroughly enjoying reading what everyone has posted in this thread thus far, whatever the points of view. And I'd like to thank everyone again for being so civil with disagreements. :-)

cheers,
Lynn

No need to apologise at all, Lynn. Besides I don't think anyone was offended by your idea. People will agree or disagree with ideas - that's what makes for an interesting thread. The comparison is one that has been tossed around before, as well as comparisons with other concepts of 'superman' or alien outisders. Nietzsche anyone? or Frankenstein? or ... ?

c.

I can't quite let go of this subject. I find it so interesting, because religions are very influential in the world of today.

The most important similarity between Jesus and Superman is that both are "saviours". They are, of course, very different kinds of saviours. Jesus is a "spiritual saviour", because the New Testament says that Jesus sacrificed himself so that the faithful ones could live forever in the Kingdom of Heaven, which is an otherworldly paradise.

Superman, on the other hand, is very much a champion of this world, even if he was not born on it. Superman puts out fires, catches plunging airplanes, digs out people buried underneath collapsed buildings and landslides, and nabs criminals.

Indeed, Superman makes the Earth a better place. Which again reminds me of Siegel and Shuster, the two Jewish boys who created Superman when they were seventeen years old. I have no idea how religious Siegel and Shuster were or how much they knew about Judaism, but I do know that there are prophesies in the Old Testament which describe the awaited Messiah as an earthly champion, someone who makes the world a better place. Remember that the Messiah was supposed to be the Son of David, and David had been a hugely successful warrior king. There are verses in the Old Testament which speak of the Messiah as the Son of David who will liberate Jerusalem and the promised land, and from this land, once the Messiah has gained control of it, will come forth a blessing that will change the whole world.

Superman, unlike the Messiah, has never been depicted as a warrior and never as a king. He has never been any sort of ruler. But surely you have to agree with me that Superman is the very essence of the idea of the benevolent champion who makes the world a better place, by using his great powers to force it to become better, if persuasion doesn't work.



Superman versus Hitler in the 1940s. Hitler's "pal" in this comic, if I remember correctly, was Stalin.

So in conclusion, we might say that Superman is more like the Messiah of Judaism than he is a true Christ figure.

Ann

But Ann there are thousands of people who do these 'saviour' type physical activities. We've recently seen examples of selfless attempts to save others in the horrific eartquakes in Hati and Chile. So many other examples, present and past - especially where people risk their own lives to rescue strangers.

Clark Kent isn't the only one. Also, perhaps, given his near physical invulnerability we should discount his 'saviour-like tendencies' compared to those of his companions.

Also, there are all those wonderful people who show us the way with their generosity, empathy, and wisdom. Perhaps it's this spiritual component that matters even more than the physical saving. (unless of course you're the one whose life has just been saved )

btw, I get a kick out of those comic books scenes you include every once in awhile. Also those astronomy shots but that's OT here Actually, maybe not given we've strayed into the heavenly in this thread.

c.

It's a quote, from Monty Python's Life of Brian

Forgot to add that Superman was dead at least once in the 1960s (I think), and Batman has also been dead before. It's REALLY common if a comic book character seems to be losing impetus, an easy way to get more attention paid to the story.

If you want a REALLY messianic character the last couple of years of Doctor Who take some beating. Literally ascending carried by a flight of angels in one of the Xmas specials, repeatedly dying to save us, etc. etc.

Whoops. I guess its time to rewatch that movie. It's been a couple decades since I last saw it.

I guess that makes sense. And if that doesn't work, the character could always stay dead and the comic book companies would then move on to more profitable characters.

I guess he's currently a far cry from Tom Baker et al.'s doctor, then. I have only seen part of one episode of the new doctor; I hadn't been impressed either with him or with his companion. (I can't recall her name, but she was a stereotypical slacker and did not seem to present (m)any redeeming qualities, at least IMHO.)

Thanks for the clarification, Marcus.

cheers,
Lynn

Smallville does the God/Jesus thing with Clark too. Clark was "crucified" in the pilot ep.





There have been other episodes, but since I don't really watch the show, I'm not very good with examples. I know there was an episode called Saviour, but I don't know what all was touched on in that one. I do know that in one episode, Oliver was grousing at Clark about being a god, and said to him, "Not everyone believes in the Second Coming."

Someone with more Smallville knowledge could maybe give better examples.

Oooo... I loved that movie. "Blessed be the cheese makers."

ML

Lynn, we're going to have to re-educate you about the tenth Doctor Who. I could never understand what people saw in the show in the Tom Baker days, but I can watch David Tennant over and over. But I know, I'm straying off topic here.

We now return you to Lois and Clark . . .

Ah...We're up to the tenth Doctor now? The last I saw was #9. I don't get any TV programming coming into the house, either via cable or over the airwaves. I don't watch much TV (LnC being a decided exception to this!), and what I do watch is via VoIP. Hmmm...I just did a bit of quick online research and found that we are actually up to #11.

Ah well. To be honest, although the show is fun, I never got really into it myself; I was sort of a Whovian by proxy -- a couple of friends of mine in high school were serious fans (one even knit himself a scarf), and so I watched some episodes just to keep up with them.

So how can I relate this to LnC....Hmmm...Have there been any Superman/Doctor Who crossover fanfics? And I wonder what Leela would make of Superman's flying?

cheers,
Lynn

No, #11, the new one starts on 3rd April, the Tenth Doctor having died to save everyone at Christmas. And yes, we do have a resurrected character reappearing at Easter...

I've written one L&C / Torchwood (the adult Dr. Who spinoff) story, Arrival, which is in the archive, but it won't give you much of a flavour for the new Who since you won't be familiar with the viewpoint character.

Originally posted by Marcus Rowland:

Well, that must have been a small run-of-the-mill story, where Superman was dead one week and alive the next. Surely no one paid much attention to it. I was intensely involved in the world of Superman comics at the time when they killed and resurrected him in the nineties, and the whole thing just generated so much buzz. I remember that here in Sweden, where the Superman comics are barely on sale, people were interviewed in the streets about how they felt about the death of Superman. Like I said, this story arc went on for so long, definitely for months, and there really was quite a lot of publicity surrounding it. Surely the death and resurrection of Superman in the sixties happened so quickly that people barely noticed. It must have been the same thing with the earlier case of the death of Batman.

Originally posted by Carol Malo:

Oh, most certainly. But those people are unknown to the world. The thing about Superman is that he is well-known all over the world. The people who helped out in Haiti are real, but Superman is an "idea" and an extremely famous "take" on the concept that one man can be wonderfully powerful and use his powers for good, thereby changing the world.

Because Superman is so famous all over the world, he can be seen as a mythical character. Dr. Who, in my opinion, can't. And therefore it isn't so interesting if Dr. Who is more Christ-like that Superman. If you pick a random person from a random country in the world and ask this person about Dr. Who, chances are that the person doesn't know Dr. Who. But if you ask the same person about Superman and show him or her the 'S' shield, chances are that the person recognizes Superman as a flying man who uses his great strength to do mighty deeds of good.

But now I'm talking about the larger Superman mythos, not the LnC version. Surely Superman has never been so romantic and so interested in a relationship with a woman as he was in LnC.

Ann

Smallville definitely casts a "Christ-like" light on Clark, especially early on in the series. Not only do they "crucify" him on a scarecrow stand in the pilot episode, but there have been many other instances in the (so far) 9 seasons of the show where there are supernatural occurrences that even comic-book physics or odd-colored Kryptonite couldn't explain. Instead of having only a recording of Jor-El to tell him vaguely about his origins, Jor-El is an actual entity that is a part of his ice Fortress in the Arctic and interferes/interacts with Clark's life. There is an episode that shows Jor-El traveling to Smallville long before and meeting Martha and Jonathan, essentially choosing his child's adoptive parents. Jor-El takes on a God-like role to Clark's Christ figure. Jor-El takes away his powers at one point and Clark dies, but is resurrected when Jor-El restores his powers. Clark goes to his father to beg for Lana's life when she dies, and Jor-El rewinds time, but insists that there will be a balance in the universe, and so Clark's father dies. As the show goes on, the parallel between Clark and Christ lessens, as Clark learns about the vast shades of gray where morality is concerned, and he struggles to maintain his absolute view of the sanctity of human life in the face of many different kinds of evil. He has trouble with the idea of the "Greater Good" when it means that individual lives are in danger.

I'm not a Smallville fan - I don't even like it - but I read the reviews to see if some episode is worth watching it. :rolleyes: Once and again they present Clark as the savior, the chosen one. I hate it when they insist that Clark was sent to Earth to be its savior. Clark was sent to Earth to save his life. Smallville has definitely crossed the line in comparing Clark to Jesus. See the reviews:

Quest review

Somebody tells Clark: "That's the difference between believers and nonbelievers. We believed you would be the next savior."

Eternal review

Tess refers to Clark as "a visitor from another planet sent to Earth to save humankind."

Later Tess and Davis (Doomsday) are talking:
Tess: "Who would Christ have been if Judas had not betrayed him? Maybe we would remember Jesus as only a teacher roaming the desert. There is a savior among us. You are here to betray him. I finally realized that until you fulfill your destiny, he won't have his greatest challenge to overcome. He cannot become the world's savior without triumphing over the world's destroyer."

Davis: "What savior? What are you talking about?"

Tess: "Clark."

This is another reason why I don't watch Smallville. It's disrespectful to put Jesus on the same level of a fictional character. I know that Smallville didn't start it, but they took it to another level.

Andreia

Considering that I am the one who started this whole thread, what I am about to say might seem ironic at best or contradictory to my former posts at worst, but to judge by the quotes in Andreia's post, I would agree wholeheartedly with her -- They did cross the line with Smallville. I have no problems with having Superman being seen as a "Christ figure" (i.e., there being a number of similarities between the two); but that is a *world* apart from claiming that Superman actually *IS* the Christ. The latter I, too, would consider to be blasphemy. Smallville will definitely NOT be on my list of shows to watch.

This is certainly continuing to be an interesting thread.

cheers,
Lynn

Interesting. Quite apart from the whole blasphemy thing - which doesn't really concern or bother me as someone who has no religion - I agree that it's a somewhat bizarre concept that Clark was sent to Earth to save humankind. Certainly, that's never been an idea that's ever previously occurred to me about the character.

As someone who dislikes a show getting too closely pinned down to a religion of any kind anyway, religious comparisons this strongly opined would definitely put me off watching the show. If I was in the first place.

LabRat

Lynn, just wanted to say that you've posed some really interesting questions on the boards, and I'm really enjoying reading them and the FDK they generate. Keep it up! (I feel new ideas percolating...)

Oh, so sad! My smiling Dean Cain in a white Superman T-shirt has disappeared!!!

Ann

I'd like to "me too" that. You've livened things up Lynn.

c. (who alos mourns the loss of Ann's very lovely Dean Cain photo.)

If you can find it in your local library or used bookstore, "The Seven Percent Solution" by Nicholas Meyer is a fascinating modern explanation of what really happened during that three-year hiatus. It involves Sigmund Freud, an unnamed Prussian cavalry officer, and international intrigue of the most pernicious kind. The game is still afoot!

\end thread hijack

My thanks to you both and to everyone else who has made me feel welcome here. I have enjoyed our conversations, and am delighted to find a place where people can disagree civilly. :-)


I don't understand...I can still see the photo higher up in the thread...Don't you see it as well? And if so, could you not simply right-click on it and save it again? I agree about it being a lovely picture.

cheers,
Lynn

It has been many years since I read that book, but I recall it being one of the best modern SH stories. IMHO, much of what is out there is really pretty third rate stuff, unfortunately; but the Seven Percent Solution was well worth the read for any Holmes fans.

cheers,
Lynn

Oh, Dean is back!

As for the Seven Per Cent Solution, I read it too and enjoyed it. I agree that it was a very good book, which took Sherlock Holmes seriously both as a brilliant detective and as an addict!

And thank you too, Lynn, for starting these very interesting threads. You could perhaps tell that I thoroughly enjoyed discussing the Christ theme, but that I was ever so slightly angry in the deathfic thread, but, oh well...

Ann

I am a Christian and I think you have covered the similarities between the two figures quite well. I eman if you take it too far, then the allegory ends, but the One coming to Earth with nonbiological parents to save man and leading a life of integrity and being hated and persecuted. It's nice to see this comparison on a secular website.