After reading a fair amount of LnC fanfic, I realized that there doesn't seem to be much profanity in it (at least not compared to what one might read in some fandoms). That brought me to the question of what is and is not acceptable in fics on this site.

How much swearing is acceptable? Are any words strictly off-limits, or does it depend on the context?

I know (more by hearsay than actually coming across it) that this website has an auto censor should an inappropriate word be used (especially on the Gfic side) it will *** it out. I've seen some authors who will * out one letter of a word so not to offend, and that for words allowed on network TV.

I saw a film this weekend in which it hit it's R rating in the first 5 seconds of the movie due to proficient use of foul language, and I was sorely tempted to turn it off had it continued down that road. (The film improved after that first scene. I wondered, since it was a VERY dark and bloody comedy, it was to chase off anyone with a weak stomach because what happened visually was much worse than the language. It almost seemed like a warning from the scriptwriter that if you can't handle the first page of my story, your life would be better if you stopped now.)

I've never enjoyed listening to excessive profanity, although there have been times in my life (when I was much younger and not yet a mother) when a good swear word seemed exactly how I felt, but I've grown up enough to have moved past that stage in my life. Plus, if anyone hasn't told you yet, that the best way to hear profanity is to say it in front of your kids, because they are little sponges and will willingly oblige to repeat you at the worst possible moment. (Like that scene in the Christmas Story where the mother has just washed little Ralphie's mouth out with soap and she asks him where he learned that foul word. Instead of saying the truth -- i.e. his father -- he threw one of his best friends under the bus. )

Even over on the Nfic boards, it is only rarely that foul language occurs. I could probably count on one hand the number of stories which I've read that the writer used more than one swear word.

We have a good group here on the message boards, and creative writers who don't need to resort to it for shock value. For that, I'm very grateful.

Anne,

I'll second Virginia whole heartedly on this. It really goes back to the characters we are portraying.

Also there is an old saying - An individual that needs to resort to profanity and vulgarity is demonstrating that they have a fundamental lack of command of the English language.

If you can't express something without resorting to that style of writing, you shouldn't be.

Traditionally, FoLCDom pretty much held such things as taboo. There was a large core of fans who felt that the Superman character was a family-friendly icon and as such should be portrayed strictly as PG. Nfic, back then, was also a source of contention and the subject of many a flame war. Along with any theme or subject matter that was considered out there.

Things have lightened up considerably these days, but I don't think there's much appetite for hardcore profanity. I'm in agreement that's no bad thing, in the main.

As far as it being OOC, Lois, of course, is a bit of a potty mouth - according to Perry's account of her skiing accident So anything up to PG13 probably suits her on the gfic side of the boards.

I think there may be some guidence on what's taboo in the FAQS for the mbs.

LabRat

Ironically, I've written more (very mild) swearing in my fanfic than I use in RL. There are times where Perry is 'telling' me that he would preface a remark with 'H*ll,' and so I write that to keep him in character. In RL, I would reserve that word for religious discussions.

In RL, I have averaged perhaps one swear word per decade of my life.

Joy,
Lynn

I agree. I think swearing can be done "off camera" better in most cases anyway.

i.e. Solar Eclipse - Irene Dutch
_______________________________
Lois looked up at her husband in despair only to see that very familiar, head cocked to one side look. She quickly glanced at her children to see the very same posture.

"What? What is it?" she asked impatiently.

"It's her. At least, I think it is," Clark said, a quizzical expression on his face.

Vicky suddenly snickered as her father turned bright red.

"What? What is it?" Lois asked again, frantic and desperate with worry.

Sam grinned. "You should hear what she just called Dad! She sounds like one very ticked off lady."

Clark quickly scooped his wife up into his arms. Without another word, he led the way out the open window, his children following behind exchanging amused glances.

"She's got a rather impressive vocabulary," Marty pointed out to her siblings.

Excellent point that the lack of profanity on this site has to do with the characters. It's part of the package. I know I love that Superman is a good guy and always tries to do the right thing. And in L&C, I always loved the fact they didn't swear and that they even waited to be married before consummating their relationship.

You could argue that TV shows at the time didn't allow such language but it doesn't seem to fit the overall tone of the show.

I used to write CSI fanfiction. I remember having a somewhat similar discussion about the use of profanity on the show and in fanfiction. Many felt it was unrealistic that the characters didn't use swear more. It made me sad when several people in the discussion responded that everyone used those words. They heard them on a daily basis.

Joan

That is sad, Joan, that those people have such a lack of imagination. I go many days and weeks without hearing it, so clearly their assumption about "everyone" was wrong. Additionally, they must not have been thinking properly about their characters and how OOC it would be for them to swear. I know people are more lax about work-place etiquette these days (another sad fact about society) but if I were Gil Grissom or Lieutenant Brass and one of my CSI's starting using profanity while on the job, he/she would get a stern talking to, if not written up. It's highly unprofessional.

Many young people think that they hear it "everywhere" but if they think about it, they really don't. Sure, they and their friends probably use it, but I doubt they hear their teachers, or college professors, or bosses swearing up a blue streak. I'm sure the clerk at the DMV is tempted after the 50th rude customer of the day, but they refrain. The waitress at the coffee shop or the guy at McD's drive thru window would be stupid to swear in front of customers and still expect to have a job the next day. I'm sure Annie doesn't use every word in the dictionary while in the library either. Jobs where swearing (even in front of customers) doesn't make anyone blink are few and far between.

Cat may come into the newsroom in a skimpy bikini when it's 100' in Metropolis, but I'm betting Perry would pull her or anyone else aside if that person started using vulgar terms at work.

Totally agree--I think the tone of the show, and the character portrayals we came to know throughout it's four year run, are the reasoning that profanity is lacking on the this site. Whenever I read fanfic, I always get a 'movie' going in my head--picturing Lois and/or Clark from sometime during the timeframe that the story could be pulled from the show--and visualize everything. The show really guides my mental image of whatever I read. Because the show didn't really go there, I never really expect the characters to go too far into that area. A great story, to me anyway, is a story where you feel like you are watching more of the show--a new episode, a season prior to the pilot, or years down the line--and to have that feeling, the characters need to be spot-on. Having correct characterization makes even the most 'out there' story idea seem very true-to-form .

Being a teen when the show was originally broadcast, the innocence of their relationship was a huge draw for me. Becoming partners, then friends, best friends, falling in love, getting married--it was a beautiful process to witness. Even now as an adult, I really enjoy the wonderful 'tone' that the show has--can't wait till the kiddos get a bit older. Fun times ahead ...

Laura

I would say it depends on the context. I've written roughly fifty stories on the site and in only one of them do I have more than an instance or two of swearing. It happens to be the story I'm currently posting on the n-side, so I've taken a little umbrage at some of the statements made above.

I warned readers up front that it would contain strong language, and I've posted a caution at the top of each part, because I worry that someone is going to get offended. I agree, in the broadest general terms, with the assessment that swearing is uncreative. In RL, I very seldom swear, and, even then, I use words that the censor bot wouldn't blink at. But not everyone lives in that kind of world. Specifically, if the bad guys in my story were real, they'd use the mother of all swear words as a noun, a verb, an adverb, and adjective, an interjection, and pretty much every part of a sentence. They won't do that in the story, because it would be offensive and pointless to beat readers over the head with it. I'm not including that word for shock value. It's there for the sake of verisimilitude.

In the end, it comes down to whether the writer can make me believe in the story. If they can sell the swearing, I'll buy. I hope that the fifty other stories I've written show enough command of the English language that people won't think it's the only way I can express myself. Obviously, I disagree. :p

I would never tell someone else how to write their story or that they're doing it wrong. There's more than enough room for all different flavors on this site. It's one of the reasons I've stuck around for so long. I've never come across a more supportive and generous group of people anywhere else. I very much appreciate that there are readers out there who are willing to let me take risks without castigating me for trying.

Sue S., it sounds like you've met some of the students at my school, who can use a certain word as a noun, verb, pronoun, adverb, adjective, conjunction, and expletive--frequently all in the same sentence.

My youngest sister had to learn the hard way not to use the 'f' word in front of her son--one afternoon I was talking to her on the phone, and she let her little boy talk to me. What did he say when she gave him the phone? "F--- you, Auntie." He was about 18 months old.

I don't tend to be offended by profanity--I hear it all the time. I don't use it at work, though, and not often elsewhere (though I'll admit that when I discovered that the people taking out a dead pine tree from the yard had dropped a good-sized chunk of wood on a small lemon tree and snapped it off at the base, I had some choice words).

I've used a couple of swear words in my story Panem, though they're mild ones. The other swearing is cut off mid-sentence or described as being bleeped out. I do think that there are times when swear words fit the situation and/or the character.

You can always use Harry Potter style swearing. There's a lot of, "Harry swore under his breath," in those books, but that only really works for interjections.

I've heard it argued that, for example, a prison scene wouldn't feel realistic if the prisoners weren't swearing, and their dialog should be written accordingly. I'm not looking for realism in all aspects of a story, though; I'm reading to be entertained. I don't ever like to read profanity, but I tolerate a certain amount of it. Regarding Superman in particular, I agree with others' sentiments that I would find it out of character, and it would detract from the story for me.

Personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable writing characters using language in a story that I wouldn't feel comfortable using in conversation myself.

Totally agree with you there! I've only written one story for L&C, but I've written quite a few in another fandom. When I'm writing, I try and keep a picture of the characters in my head, and write them accordingly.
Did we ever hear the characters swear on the show? I'm trying to remember but I really don't think we did. It would've been really out of character, especially for Clark, and I think that kind of carries over to fanfic.

Speaking personally, I work in an area that's very male-dominated and the average age of the staff is around 18 or 19. So I do tend to hear a lot of profanity. I limit what I say myself, especially now that I have a toddler that's learning to talk! The odd swear word doesn't really bother me. It's when it's over the top that it gets to me.

For me, it all boils down to what the show gives us as guidelines for the characters. L&C never crossed into profanity. (Note: I do not consider "hell" and "damn" profanities.) So, when I write, I ask myself, "does this actually sound like the character?" While it was mentioned that Lois cursed up a blue streak when she broke her ankle, we never actually saw swearing occur on screen.

Now, if I were to be writing for, say, Dexter, I would have Deb dropping swear words left, right, and center - because that's how her character was. Every other word out of her mouth began with the letter F. Writing "Gosh darn it!" for her character would not be natural and would not ring true for the character.

As a reader, I will not read a story in which the characters sound "off." If Clark drops an F-bomb, I'm not longer interested in the story, because the author does not understand the fundamental truths of who he is. And if, in the case above, Deb has a squeaky clean mouth - that writer doesn't understand that character either.

I do take offense at the idea that (and I'm paraphrasing here) people who swear have a fundamental lack of command of the English language." I can swear like a truck driver in the privacy of my own home, but I would never do so in a professional setting. And I think I have a rather decent, if not impressive, command of the English language (as I sincerely *hope* my stories demonstrate). (I'm trying to work on the swearing thing before my girls get old enough to repeat what I say.)

Sue, I would hate for you to think that any of us were referring to any specific story on these boards (including Nfic). I know I was speaking in generalities.

I, myself, posted an Nfic version of a story due to language.

Has anyone ever heard of a film (or book) where a reviewer commented on the LACK of profanity in it, and thought it should have had more? I can't. But I can name numerous films where I would have enjoyed them a lot more without quite so much of it. (As I mentioned above, I'm referencing movies more than fiction because it seems to pop out more there. Apparently, those don't get filmed without a script having been written, although there are times when I do wonder...)

Okay. I'm only on here for a few minutes to post a short little story and be gone. But I saw this thread and had to comment.

That's true, Mouse. I mostly speak with kids under 10 and their mothers and teachers. I also live in a small town, where such freedom to speak profanity is frowned upon in public spaces. I am sorry to hear that your teachers and professors feel the need to swear in the classroom. My kids have heard swear words (Thanks "Short Circuit" and "Goonies" and I have to say their father :rolleyes: , who doesn't curb his speech in front of them as much as I try to), but they know what are acceptable and not acceptable words to use in my house. Then, again, in our house calling someone "stupid" is considered a swear word and is forbidden (unless referencing politicians, but that's another topic altogether.)

We weren't allowed to use any words my mother didn't say herself; although, we had heard them in RL and in movies. My favorite "swear phrase" that I liked to use (and still do from time to time) is "Tough Cookies!"

NOW, Come on, don't tell me 6 is too old to be seen holding his mamma's hand. Thankfully, he changed his mind back again by the next day. Phew./

An interesting film to watch on this (yes this is on subject) is Hopscotch with Walter Mattheau - Only one character habitually uses obscenities and he's the "bad guy". For all the other character's the use of swear words is clearly a choice made for effect.
is a good reminder that a character who is meant to have a good command of English probably won't need to resort to vulgarity to get their point across.

I teach at a school in Detroit that has children up to grade 8 and I go days without hearing swear words.

Of course, I teach in pre-K. However we have the children so that they do not say "shut-up", and saying "A**" by one student was so far out, that it took a lot of coxing to get the other student to admit that was the bad word that had been said.

In L&C it seems totally out of character for Clark, and in most cases, even Lois to use such words. I like the lack of profanity in most of the stories, and hope it stays that way.

No offense taken, Virginia. I've actually never written any Dexter fics, save for the one (clean) Dexter/L&C crossover that I posted here. Deb was merely the first character that crossed my mind as an example where NOT having a character swear would actually jar me out of the story because it wouldn't be true to the character, as she was presented on the show. (She was a pretty hardcore, "one of the boys" type of cop who didn't take anything from anyone. I'm guessing some of her language stemmed from her working Vice at the beginning of the show, but that's just my observation and guess.)

Lois? God, no! Ick! But, if it was, say, Aphrodite from Hercules and Xena, then no, it wouldn't bother me, because she was written as more of a Valley Girl type of character. (No, she didn't "like" or "totally" everything, but enough to give her the Valley Girl feel.)

Some of them make mine crawl too.

In writing, I agree. IF it is merely for shock value. But if it is done in keeping with an established character, then I'm not bothered by it, unless the swear words being used are typically NOT ones used by said character.

Ugh, I know. I'm trying. It's really difficult to break the habit. Half the time, I don't realize what I've said until after something's slipped out of my mouth. It all started in college, in the dorms, where cursing almost seemed to be a way of life. I guess part of me did it to fit in.

Awwwwww! Now you make me want to find a way to slow down time so my little girls stay little!

As far as profanity being a sign of lack of creativity or command of the English language goes, I have to say that it takes a fair amount of creativity for a single word to have so many meanings--even if it has to be repeated numerous times in a sentence to get all the meanings across.

I had an elderly friend who could swear very creatively. He had a large vocabulary and could combine pretty much any word with a profanity if something irritated him or he wanted to get a point across. I never heard him say the F word, but he said just about everything else.

I have two young nieces that I spend a fair amount of time with. When something happens that seems to call for a strongly-worded response, I often say "Goodness gracious me oh my!" I said that yesterday in front of the high school students and they found it hilarious (almost as hilarious as the time I dropped an 8-pound hardcover book on my toe and yelled "Owie!")

Annie, I like your non-curse words. My own personal favourite is, "Bother!" I loved it when, as a child, I read stories in which Winnie the Pooh used it and decided to adopt it for myself. My other favourite is, "Sugar!"

Joy,
Lynn

I really didn’t mean to offend anyone with my statement. Also, I was not necessarily referencing anyone on this board when I made that statement.

I do not use profanity or vulgarity in my personal life and it is a rare occasion that I will use it in my writing.

Like everyone else, I have been exposed to that kind of language, believe me, after spending 20 years in the military, I’ve heard it all. Fortunately it has not transferred over to my personal life.

My problem is with those individuals, let me reiterate, not necessarily on this board, that use it for shock effect or even gratuitously.

If you are establishing a character, and it puts that character in a certain light, that is an entirely different story. Disreputable characters will use slang, swear words and vulgarities. I would just hope that it would see limited usage here on this board.

The minister of the church I grew up in was a retired Navy chaplain. He tried to keep a civil tongue, but sometimes he'd curse anyway, much to the amusement of all the teenagers. When I was 16, I was at the annual ice cream social and decided to take a turn on the swings on the church playground. The chain snapped and sent me flying headfirst into a tree--and I taught the little kids on the playground a whole new vocabulary. The minister's response? "Thank God! She's normal!" (I wasn't much for swearing out loud, unlike some of my peers.)

I agree that using profanity in fanfic just for shock effect doesn't really add anything to the story (plus it quickly loses the shock effect). It actually makes me think of the Frank Miller comic The Dark Knight Strikes Again, which has a lot of material that seems to be used for shock effect and wound up not being a very good comic (IMHO).

I agree that the reason there is very little profanity in LnC fanfic is because the show just didn't have that tone, and generally, we're copying their lead.

However, I don't necessarily agree with the 'swearing is such a bad thing' view point. I can think of far, far worse things to say than a word that someone, sometime, probably arbitrarily, decided was a BAD word.

You're ugly.
You're worthless.
You can't get anything right.
You'll never succeed at anything.
I hate you.
I wish you were dead.

OK - they're not words, they're sentences, but a *^$#@ let out in frustration or pain or even just said for emphasis, particularly when there are no kids around, is IMO a lot less offensive than some cruel things said using non-swear words.

People who swear are easy targets. However, there are other people who are aghast at swearing, but quite happy to indulge in gossip. Or unfair character destruction. Or verbal bullying. Or judging others - particularly those who might use an occasional (or not-so-occasional) swear word.

I knew a little boy who moved from one English speaking country to another. A few days after starting his new school, he was chatting in a group of kids when suddenly a girl jumped up, pointed at him, and shouted "You swore!" Then she ran off, very self-importantly, to inform the teacher that a terrible crime had occurred.

The boy was dragged before the teacher, and after a lot of to-ing and fro-ing, (because the teacher couldn't actually bring herself to say the shameful words) he grasped that his crime had been to utter 'Shut up'.

Now, where the little boy had come from 'Shut up' was used mostly with affection, along the same lines as 'Get out of here' or 'You're kidding'. He was stunned to learn that words that were quite acceptable in some places inexplicably turned into swear words in other places. Even worse, the teacher (and the tattle tale) very effectively got across that because he used BAD words, he was obviously a BAD person.

I don't particularly like listening to/reading a lot of profanity in movies or books. But it's the writer's choice to put them there, and my choice to close the book or walk out of the movie if I want to.

The fact is that people swear. Some 'bad' people swear. And surprisingly, some 'good' people swear, too. In the scheme of things, I don't think it's the big deal it's often made out to be.

Corrina.

An excellent point. Swear words may offend, but they don't hurt the way your examples would. And the offense is usually quickly forgotten, but the damage done by the hurtful words can be lifelong.

Joy,
Lynn

Speaking as someone who was verbally bullied during my 6th, 7th, and 8th grade years, and told more than once by more than one person that I should go kill myself, I would whole-heartedly agree with this.

Thanks, Deadly Chakram, for giving me the idea for my latest story .

Joy,
Lynn

My Alt-Clark (Wrong Clark) is a bit more liberal with his language than canon Clark is, but I would never have him say, let alone think, THAT. I, too, attribute this to his upbringing after his folks died. I try not to have him swear outright (or even a blue streak as Lois is known to do, mainly because Christina would bash my head in with her OOC club), but he does THINK terms I can't imagine canon Clark thinking without blushing (even in regards to Lex Luthor). But he'll never drop any of the main 5 ones from George Carlin's list of 7 words people can't say on TV. (Not recommended for anyone who covers their ears for 'hell', but a VERY informative bit of comedy, even if slightly out of date.) /cowers from Christina's club for even bringing up the list/.

When Annie brought up the topic of Profanity, I believe she was referring to these specific words (mostly), which are considered profanity pretty much world wide. These are the type of words, which were originally used for intimidation and to cause fear in others and why they became risque`. They are the ones I could picture Martha washing out Clark's mouth with soap, had she ever heard him use them (when he was a child, and, some, even as an adult). None of those words are appropriate for most of the canon characters from LnC (although, I might make an exception for Cat... who would be wise enough not to use them in one of my stories or in the office.) While I could see some thugs saying them (but only in a Nfic), I would hope the character's stay in the story would be of short duration.

In my story 'Panem', Clark says "damn" and "dammit" several times, but it's in high-stress situations. Some of the OCs, however, are a bit more willing to use strong profanity, though I haven't spelled any of the words out completely. (One character got halfway through the 'f' word before falling asleep at the breakfast table.)

Always happy to help!

You bring up an interesting point, Virginia. And not one I'd considered. Alt characters get a pass from me, if only because their upbringing may have been completely different from canon characters. While I typically choose not to have them swear, I can imagine that in some universes, they might. Heck, in some universe out there, maybe Clark is completely evil and bent on enslaving the Earth before he meets Lois and has a change of heart.

That would make an awesome story!

That would make an awesome story! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I think I smell a challenge...

In one story I wrote, I really wanted to use the F word. It was the right word in the circumstances. It was said by one of the bad guys. And it is the only time I've ever even been tempted to use the word in my writing.

Of course, we don't allow that word to be used in a pg story, so I faced the choice of posting it as a nfic or changing the word. Since there was no other nfic in my novel-length story, I ended up changing the word and posting it as a pg story.

I've disliked the story ever since. It feels as if I compromised my story.

ML

ML, you can always go back to the story, add the word, and post it on the nfic side.

Your post reminded me of a movie in which swearing was necessary for the movie to have the proper impact. No, I'm not referring to "Gone with the Wind," but rather to "Children of a Lesser God." In the climactic scene, the Deaf female lead character tells the hearing male protagonist about how, when she was a teenager, the boys would line up to have a turn with her. The sign she used (which the male lead translated aloud for the audience's benefit) was a very graphic one which was translated as something like "repeatedly F*-ed me." As much as I dislike such terminology in either language, and as much as I usually avoid R-rated (and, nowadays, many PG-13 rated) movies in part because of their use of such language, I have to admit that that was the perfect sign/word choice. That scene was refilmed to eliminate such terminology so the movie could be shown on TV. The lead female character in the re-shoot used the sign equivalent of "make love." It was completely inappropriate in the context. She was trying to emphasize the mechanical, animalistic, nature of the encounters, and love had nothing whatsoever to do with the actions being described. The televised version's scene did not work at all, in either language. (At the time, I had been fairly fluent in ASL, so I can make that statement from first-hand (no pun intended) observation.)

Even I will agree that sometimes -- on very rare occasion -- foul language is the best choice in telling a story.

Joy,
Lynn

Another perfect example of profanity suiting the story is in the movie 'The King's Speech'. Prince Albert is struggling to speak without stuttering and his speech therapist shows him that during certain circumstances, he doesn't stutter ie. when using profanity. It's a perfect and very funny scene in a brilliant movie!

Irene

Sometimes ugly situations require ugly words. As MLT said, if you water it down, the story loses something.

You forget... I now dislike the story. And who wants to post a story she dislikes?

ML

Sometimes a well-placed, well-timed swear word is exactly the right touch (for example, in the movie Paint Your Wagon, the holier-than-thou preacher goes around preaching obnoxiously at everyone, but when he predicts that God will make the town sink into the ground and it does, taking him with it, he lets out a very apropos profanity; if you've seen this movie, you'll know what I mean). Other times, I get the impression that the profanity is there just to be there (if you took the "F" words and other profanities out of The Wolf of Wall Street, it might actually be a reasonable length).

Ok, I'm coming up on a situation where Clark's upbringing in running smack in a situation where my muses for Martha are saying that she's about to use a dirty word (although it wouldn't be profanity necessarily because the context is appropriate). Still, it would be partially blotted out. Trying to decide what to do on it.