Okay, I'm not setting this up to stir up a bunch of controversy. More, something brought up on another thread got me to thinking about how misconceptions can arise and resultant remarks based on those misconceptions can cause hurt feelings of sorts.

I don't want to explain too much here because I don't want to influence answers by leading people, rather I want to know how wide spread certain opinions are held. If, when you see the poll questions, you wish not to participate, I understand.

As usual, comments serve to clarify where my poll falls short.

Thanks,
Lynn

I'm tired and a little muddle-headed right now, so, to be on the safe side, I'm going to put in a spoiler space. That way, people can vote in the poll first and read my comments (or not!) when they're done. Everyone got that?

Good.

Here we go...

F
O
O
L

Y
A
H

|
|

E
R
,

I

M
E
A
N
.
.
.

Never mind. That should be enough, I think.

So, here's the deal: I have a very strange mind. This should not be news. Part of that strangeness is that I have these very firm mental barriers set up. The one of the strongest of those barriers devides sexual content from more "normal" run-of-the-mill "g-rated" stuff, such as leisure reading. The main part of my mind remains "innocent" while n-thoughts get shoved away and locked into a dark corner until appropriate circumstances occur.

(It's wierd. I know. I told you that up front.)

Reading L&C nfic crosses that barrier, which is a painful and disorienting experience. If I relax, mental filters simply block out the explicit content. I see it, but it just doesn't get absorbed. If I push myself, going back over to force myself to read it, wierd and unpleasant things start to happen.

My assumption is that most nfic contains explicit content. If it didn't, it'd be in the gfic section.

I know the nature and degree of that content varies, but reading it at all makes my head hurt, so I just don't.

Other stories may be in the nfic section for violence or language, both of which I prefer not to have in my leisure reading. (I also tend to avoid more angsty fics, for pretty much the same reason.)

So, I'm just generally happier sticking to gfic. I don't look down on nfic or anything, but it's just not really for me.

If I knew that a story was in the nfic section for non-sexual reasons... I don't know. It would depend on the reason it was there. Which is why I voted "other" in the last question.

Paul

I assume that nfic stories have explicit sexual content - hey, that's what I'm reading them for! If it's nfic due to language or violence, I'm not particulary interested. But if anyone wants to post some new "soft core porn", I need a vicarious thrill - the new guy at work is hot!

I think it's inevitable that the general perception will be that nfic equals sexual content. That's the way it's always been in the past and that's the term that most other fandoms use to denote their sexually explicit fanfic. So it's entirely natural that that will be what strikes the mind first when FoLCs think nfic.

The N in nfic means 'naughty', which doesn't help broaden the perception.

Over the years, we've made a few attempts to poll FoLCdom on using other terms for stories in the nfic folder which would be more appropriate. But we've never been very successful. And I'm not sure we would ever be. Nfic as a term has just entered the collective psyche too deeply and been so firmly connected with sexually explicit material that I doubt you could change that now.

But that naughty N is a bit of a misnomer and misleading these days, at least in our fandom. Not all of the stories in the nfic section are the mind candy, PWP, fun and lightweight romps that were the bulk of nfic back when the term was coined.

Many contain sexually explicit content as moments in gfic stories. For example, almost all of my stories listed in the Fanfic Archive will have nfic versions. It's the same story, just...enhanced.

Others contain sexually explicit material but use it in a more deeply emotional way. To explore other areas of Lois and Clark's relationship or to deal with emotional pain.

And the nfic folder is also for stories which have zero sexual content, but which are beyond the PG13 limit and so can't be posted on this forum in the gfic Fanfic Folders. A story which might have Lois and Clark working on a serial killer case and contain explicit descriptions of murders, for example. There are also stories in the nfic folder which the author deems just a little too racy for gfic, but which don't specifically have sex scenes in them.

The nfic folder in this fandom is for stories with 'adult themes'. Which doesn't necessarily mean sex.

Whenever I wrote stories in the past, I always started out with the assumption that it would turn out to be 'nfic' - beyond the PG13 limit. And that I'd then rework it to produce a second gfic version. That wasn't because I was intending to put sexually explicit moments in them - although most of them turned out that way. It was because it freed me to use whatever turned up as I wrote and let me work without restraints on the language I used, the details I wrote. I felt...unconstricted...as I wrote to limiting myself to any rating.

And really that's what nfic means in our fandom. Beyond PG13. For all kinds of reasons. If a story has one beyond PG13 cussword in it but is otherwise gfic and the author feels that cussword is vital to the story and can't be removed - that story will be posted in nfic (and hopefully archived at Annesplace). It won't have any sex in it though.

The challenge is in marking the reality of that and getting the message across to FoLCs. I've always felt that a new term other than nfic would help. But, as I say, I think that the term nfic is just too deep a part of the collective mind to oust it now.

Unless, of course, someone wants to start another poll....

LabRat

Couldn't one apply the R rating for stories that are beyond PG13 for reasons other than sexual content? They would still go in the nfic forum (which could then be renamed nFanfic and R-rated Fanfic), but that way people who want to avoid nfic, but don't mind violence or strong language, could tell which is which.

Just a suggestion.

I did the poll and am now realizing I can't think of any stories posted to nfic that deal only with adult themes but are devoid of explicit sexual content and/or gfic-banned language (euphemism ). Can anyone give me titles? there must be some.

The only one that crosses my mind is Tank's Serial Vengeance - was that posted to nfic with more gory graphic details than what the gfic version had?

A bit of a sidebar - I always had difficulty with the perception of nfic as a repository for more "adult- themed" fics because by applying the term 'adult' deliberately to nfic, the implication is that gfic doesn't deal with 'adult' themes. In my L & C reading experience (and that's the only fanfic i've read), the *most* 'adult' fics I've read have been on the gfic side.

I used to check out the nfic version when there was one to see if there was anything added to enhance the exploration of those themes but found only the addition of explicit sexual content (which was okay - what can I say: I have a trashy mind) or n-rated language.

Now, sometimes an added sexually explicit scene does add to the depth of an 'adult fic' - Sheila's added scene to Tanks's very "adult" Love Disabled comes to mind. But that puts it in the "Nfic for explicit sex" category.

Not that there's anything wrong with explicit sexual content : or even "cheap soft porn", unless of course by "cheap" we mean "unaesthetic", and then of course that's very, very wrong. That would then be a high school sex manual.

c. (who doesn't spend a lot of time writing a post, but hours editing one!)

It's an idea, Sheila. The only thing against it, I would think, is that in my experience the R rating doesn't have a lot of resonance outside the US and few people outside the US understand what it stands for or recognise it as a beyond PG13 rating. So using it might just bring up as many new misunderstandings as using nfic. Just different ones.

Carol, I don't like or advocate the title adult fiction either. But for different reasons. I, personally, think that the term adult fiction has just as many conotations with sexual content than nfic does. So I can't see it solving anything either.

I would judge that over the years, 99% of stories posted in the nfic folder would fit into the various range of sexually explicit material. Those rated beyond PG13 for non-sexual content are few and far between and I think that's partly because of the misconceptions surrounding what the nfic folder is for. I think if we could solve this naming dilemma and FoLCs had a better understanding that they can post stories in nfic which don't have any sex in them, non-sexual stories would increase. I think the majority would always be sexual content, mind you.

I've read stories over the years, posted to nfic, where the authors have apologised in their notes because 'sorry, but this doesn't have any sex in it' and expecting flames for that. Or to be told 'why are you posting in here then?' Occasionally they are asked that - though a tad more politely <G> - and then we have to explain 'nfic folder doesn't necessarily mean sexually content'.

I have a vague feeling that Yvonne might have posted one of the above, but don't quote me on it. The memory's hazy these days and I could very well be mixing her up with someone else entirely.

Edit: Okay, I knew there had been a discussion on this in the past and I actually found it. A thread Wendy started. It already has some excellent points and opinions in it. Unfortunately, it was posted in nfic. The link for those interested and who have nfic access is:

Naming Nfic

During the nfic folder discussion, it was suggested that it also be conducted in gfic, as those without nfic access might also have an opinion on the subject. The link to that gfic thread is here:

Fanfic Related Discussion

LabRat

Not quite sure I follow this bit:
" I, personally, think that the term adult fiction has just as many conotations with sexual content than nfic does."
but loosely interpreting it, I'm thinking maybe we should just not use the term 'adult' for nfic? Sometimes avoidance of a term is the way to go

Btw I'm not saying that there are no adult sexual themes to explore that don't necessitate the use of explicit sexual content, but this observation is off topic, given the wording of the poll, I tihnk:)

c.

*checks birth certificate* Nope, my name's not Sheila .

Using the US rating system is common in other fandoms, and I'm sure one could post or link to an explanation of the rating system. I'm not saying this is the ideal solution, but in my opinion it allows authors and readers to distinguish between different kinds of stories. A label at the top saying "Rated R for language and violence" will give you more information than saying simply that the story's nfic.

Again, just my opinion.

Right. Just because you post there doesn't mean you're happy with your sex life . Sorry, just teasing.

It may be a cultural thing, Carol. Here in the UK, 'adult fiction' generally tends to conjure up images of seedy bookshops in dark alleys and top of the shelf magazines in the newsagents. I think someone else makes that point in one of the threads I've just linked to, but can't remember who it was.

Ooops. Sorry, C_A. For some reason I caught your sig and it reminded me of the one Sheila Harper uses. No, don't even try and explain why. It makes no sense at all. And anyway, it's a real bad idea to identify posters by their sigs in the first place.



LabRat

Sorry, just wanted to point out that this is no longer an option. The MPAA threw a fit last year, and threw suits at a few fanfic sites. So a lot of sites went through and had to redo their ratings systems. It sucks, but there it is.

I believe Yvonne's Clark Kent, This Is Your Life had an nfic version that had more to do with the situation and violence than anything sexual. I think there's a few others, but that would take some searching... and I wish I had time to read right now!

Just edited to fix a typo in the quotes code which was preventing it from working. - LabRat

Oh, wow, I didn't know this. Okay, so my idea is not an option, then. But I suppose one could come up with one's own rating system if one wanted to.

Oh, and MPAA? to you.

Oh, yeah, I'd completely forgotten about that. I knew that they were muttering about legal action, but heard nothing further and assumed they'd not taken it further.

Our Fanfic Archive decided to just leave things as they were until and when/if we heard anything from them.

Did the other sites change things pre-emptively? Or were they actually contacted by the MPAA?

Not that it makes any difference to the subject, but I'm just curious now that you've reminded me of it. Thanks, Karen!

Oh, and a double thank you, Karen! <G> I was searching for the rating system below earlier as I had a vague recollection of having posted it in a previous thread. But just couldn't find it. Found the other threads I linked to instead, but not the one with this in it. Then, lightbulb moment happened when I read your post and I found it in a thread using MPAA as a search key.

I still find this suggestion for how to rate stories pretty amusing.




LabRat

I answered the poll... and found that I checked 'other' more than anything else.

My assumption would be that anything in nfic would contain explicit sexual content. However, I don't usually venture anywhere near the nfic folder so how would I actually know?

In fact, the only story I ever posted in the nfic folder went there for language. (Too many d--ns for the archive. However, when I submitted the archive version, I worked out how to avoid the extra words and still be happy with the final result.)

I have read some nfic, but I wouldn't call myself a fan.

I would be less likely to read stories that are in the nfic folder for reasons other than sex than I would be to read ones with sex. (And the last time I read any of the latter was... well... so long ago I can't remember when.)

I really don't like reading graphic violence and, while I'm reasonable broad minded about it, bad language for the sake of bad language really does nothing for me.

That's a very long-winded way of saying that I have definite preconceptions of what is in the nfic folder but these aren't based on personal experience. Nor are they likely to be accurate.

More than that, I would be unlikely to read an nfic story that has a perfectly good pg version that I know would sit within my personal comfort levels.

Chris

I don't have much of an opinion on what nfic should be called, even though the fact that "n" stands for naughty is a little depressing. Not all nfic is naughty, if you ask me.

To me, the very best nfic is about exploring Clark and Lois's characters in stories where their sexual relationship is a part of the story. My favorite nfic story ever is CC Aiken's When the World Finds Out, which may be my all-time favorite Lois and Clark story of any kind. The story is about Clark and Lois's love, quite simply, how they come through for one another in so many different ways and in so many different situations. One way which they come through for one another is through lovemaking. CC's story has only one actual lovemaking scene, which incidentally contains very few details. The nfic version of this scene makes it clear, however, that Lois and Clark frequently seek out physical, sexual joining simply to become "one body" and thus confirm and reaffirm their absolute commitment to one another. Through lovemaking, the two of them do become one. This may sound like a trite old cliché, but the way CC told it, it was very powerful and strong to me. Her story reminded me, the agnostic, of the most beautiful biblical passages about what the love between a man and a woman should be like.

In CC's story, Clark's Superman identity is revealed to the world, and for a while Clark is shattered and overcome with grief and loss. He seeks comfort in Lois's arms, through lovemaking. CC only points this fact out, without going into any details at all about how they make love. Here, their lovemaking is seen as Lois's ultimate gift to Clark - her total acceptance and love of him, her holding him close like a mother would hold her son, except that Lois and Clark are married, so they make love instead of just hugging. But in terms of comforting it is the same thing - it is the total physical closeness that a woman can offer a beloved man to soothe his pain. This, too, is something I found so beautiful.

Later in the story Lois and Clark's circa seventeen-to-twenty-year-old children arrive on the scene to speak to Lois and Clark. The children, and particularly their son, speak with almost shocking frankness about their parents' lovemaking. But the way I read the story, the children are definitely offering their parents their support. They are, I think, telling their father that he is lucky to have a wife that offers him such consolation by making love to him. And I think the children are saying that they love their parents and want them to be as happy as possible, and therefore they are glad that their mom and dad get so much comfort and joy out of their love life. Isn't this, too, beautiful?

There are other nfic stories too, which use Clark and Lois's love life to explore beautiful aspects of these two people's character. For example, I love the way ML Thompson's Super Stud shows us that even when Clark has lost all sexual inhibitions, he is still an extremely sweet and totally considerate man, who wouldn't dream of making love to anyone but Lois and who could never be anything but unselfish and caring when making love to her.

Like I said, the best nfic stories are beautiful stories about Clark and Lois as characters. There are also other nfic stories which I would not label "the best", but I leave it to others to talk about them!

But to summarize: Yes, I would read the nfic version of a Kerth winning story first. I think that both CC's and MLT's stories work slightly better as nfic than as gfic. If there is an nfic version of a gfic story, then I'm going to assume that the nfic version was the original one, and that the gfic version has been somehow truncated. I would, in fact, assume that the gfic version was the "second best" version of the story.

And I would definitely be less likely to read an nfic story if I knew it had gotten its rating even though it had no nfic-rated sexual content. I would assume that the story was very violent, cruel or otherwise disturbing. Like I said, I think the best nfic stories are beautiful and uplifting, but I wouldn't expect a very violent or cruel story to be uplifting.

Ann

It just struck me that this could be misinterpreted to mean I consider the more serious nfic to be somehow better or more valid than the PWP mind candy nfic romps.

So just to clarify that nothing could be further from my intent. There are times when I enjoy a good mindless, fun romp and times when I want something with more depth and plot. As with a lot of what I read, it depends on my mood of the moment.

But being a PWP nfic romp doesn't necessarily mean that a story has been written any less well than any other story on the mbs. I have read badly written romps. I've also read badly written serious nfic. And gfic, come to that. <G>

Heck, been known to write a few mind candy nfic romps myself, now and then.

So just wanted to clarify that in case of confusion. All that was intended was that back when the fandom was new most of the nfic was fun PWP romps, so the naughty n tag was appropriate. But that nowadays things have changed, what's in the nfic folder covers a broader spectrum and so the naughty n is a bit misleading these days and hasn't moved to catch up with the change in content.

LabRat

I'm not sure how it is in other countries, but here in the US, especially after NippleGate, TV programs are required to show a "rating" at the beginning of the show. The rating is further clarified by initials that indicate what, exactly, makes a show rate a certain way.

So, for example, a show might be rated "TV-G" which stands for "General Audience", and there will be nothing in it that children can't/shouldn't see.

But a more adult program would be rated "TV-MA" which stands for Mature Audience. To further clarify, the initials L for course/rough language, V for violence, S for sexual content, and/or D for suggestive dialogue might appear. A program can be rated TV-MA because of L and S (language and sex), or maybe because of V and L (violence and language, no sex).

This means that if I don't want my kids watching shows with sex but don't care if they watch shows with violence (a sick example of the twisted sense of morality prevalent here in the US where sex is taboo but gratuitous violence is fine and dandy, IMO, which I will never understand), I can allow them to watch TV-MA, V but not TV-MA, S shows. Weird, I know.

I'm just wondering if something of this nature might not be helpful. If a story is rated Nfic, perhaps something at the beginning of the story to designate why it is Nfic would allow those who wish to avoid sexual content to stay away but then also allow others who would read it but assume that it must contain sexual content to see that it does not.

So, a story would be rated Nfic - S, L if it contained sexually explicit/suggestive content and harsh language.

However, it does seem from the poll that many people draw a line about Nfic and tend to stay away regardless of the reasons behind the rating. I can respect that - like keeping all kids out of rated R movies even if the reason for the R is something fairly innocuous. Better safe than sorry.

About that whole "adult theme" designation; I, too, think the phrase brings to mind something of a sexual nature. But logically I know that it might include things that are simply too intense for a younger crowd. For example, a story involving rape that didn't in any way show any of the actual event (had zero sexually explicit content in the entire story) but dealt with the horrifying aftermath might be a bit too intense for a younger audience, thus an "adult theme".

Lynn

Yes, that makes sense. However there are stories that deal with that particular theme on the archive (e.g. Nightmare on Hyperion), so it doesn't seem that the *intensity* of the theme is a criterion for us on the mbs/archive.

It's really hard to think of a theme that would qualify as an n-fic only theme, given the range of the stories on the archive. So I've been thinking about this. (can you tell this is a slow day for me? )

Anyway finally came up with one - i think - what if Lois were facing problems with orgasm dysfunction? (is it okay if I use that word here?) I do think there it would be necessary to pretty much confine some types (but not all) fics that deal with that theme to the n-fic boards.

Am trying to think of other themes.

Agree about the bizarreness of a rating system that is tougher on explicit sex than on graphic violence. (totally off-topic comment on my part, though:) )

c.

Paul and Chris have already covered a lot of my thoughts on the topic, but I wanted to expand on my "other" vote on question #2. I generally don't read nfic. The closest option for me, then, would be "Wouldn't read it because it contains something that I'd find offensive" but I couldn't pick that, because it's not a question of being offended. I'm not offended (or not much ) but it's just generally not something I'm into. I'll make exceptions in special cases, but I don't read the nfic section.

However, I used to read nfic more, and I still have some nfic versions of stories on my hard drive, and that's generally the version I'll re-read. I think that nfic versions of stories tend to be more intense than the gfic versions -- which can be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on what's being intensified. CK,TiYL was distinctly creepier in nfic.

And I think if something was explicitly labeled "nfic but no sexual content" then I'd get very nervous 'cause I have very little tolerance for violence either in stories or on TV. I used to watch CSI, but it gave me nightmares; I avoid it now, and I'm much happier I'd much rather read a PWP romp than Masques, for instance

Um, anyway... I'm not so much offended as I am uninterested

PJ

Yes, Pam, perhaps I should have chosen a better word. I like your "not something I'm into" option.

I see what you mean, Carol, about how to define what would qualify as an "adult theme" that can't be represented in a Gfic story. Like you, I'm hard pressed to find any at all. I suppose it ends up being the way a particular theme is handled, maybe.

For example, if Lois and Clark were on the trail of a serial killer, I imagine the Nfic version would perhaps contain graphic portrayals of victims or particular acts, whereas the Gfic might leave off at a much less intense point.

Even so, it doesn't solve the problem of defining "adult themes." Perhaps a better descriptive would be "dark themes"? Hmmm. That doesn't seem much better. Okay, I'm stuck. I have no answer.

Lynn

I recall a very small number of sites were contacted, but that was enough to make waves in the fanfic community. A lot of sites changed their ratings systems when those few were contacted.

Nice idea, but the problem is that most of us post our stories before we've finished writing them, and we don't write to a strict plan, either. This means we don't know, when we start posting a story, how the content will turn out, so we can't really post a meaningful warning. What I do, usually, is to post warnings at the top of any particularly intense sections of a story. I'll tell you if there's bad language, or extreme violence either implied or explicit. I won't, if I'm posting in the nfic folder, warn you if there's going to be any sexy content because my assumption is that anyone reading in the nfic folder is comfortable with that type of content. I could easily and happily change that practice, though.

As Rat said, the attraction of the nfic folder for me these days is that it gives me the freedom to express myself freely without having to worry whether any particular character may or may not overstep the PG limit. My default setting, therefore, is to post in the nfic folder just in case some non-PG content turns up at some point in the story.

That said, having dabbled in sexy scenes and pretty much learned how to write them, these days I find myself disinclined to include them. It's a kind of 'been there, done that' thing. And as someone else said, citing CC's story, the most effective lovemaking scenes are those which contain minimal detail of the mechanics and lots of information about the participants' emotions. IMO.

Yvonne

Quick thought. Probably been floated before, but, even if so, can't hurt to try again. Minds may have changed. (It happens. Sometimes. Really.) Feel free to reject or ignore.

Change "Nfic" to "18Fic" or "18+."

Set up a voluntary system where writers, if they so choose, can include single-initial warnings in the subject line of the individual post.

For example:

Heated Visions (3/8ish) *SL*

That would indicate that in this post (Part 3 of the story "Heated Visions"), there is sexual content and strong language.

You can also choose to include an author's note at the beginning with what you expect, but the subject line warning will cover the "It's a WIP and I'm not entirely sure what will or will not happen" problem.

Thoughts?

Paul

It's an interesting issue.

Many times I wonder if my one story even had a non n-fic version because the subject matter was so harsh.

Sexuality doesn't offend me at all, and I'm planning on letting my kids view certain movies/tv shows when they demonstrate both the interest and maturity to handle (i.e. Buffy - which got pretty steamy for it's 8pm slot in later seasons, but which I think was such a powerful and amazing epic with wonderful thematic development that i'd want my kids to see it, just as I'd want them to enjoy other great epics)

Sexuality is a part of life - *the* part of life, and to me, consensual loving intimacy is something we need in this world.

I can deal with the non consensual (in fact, I wrote about it) as long as it's not gratuitous or just the result of lazy characterization.

I'm more likely to be offended by the characters just acting in ways that they never *should* based on even the loosest reigns of canon. Lois Lane has always been an intrepid girl reporter, and I would never expect her to be a weepy clinging vine, for example.

I would also never expect her to be a child abuser (which i've never read, but I'm just listing it out as an example)

As far as the dividing line - anything I write that will get me in trouble if someone under 18 reads it belongs in the nfic folder, and that's how I try to make the distinction in my mind and in my writing.