OK - Anyone coming into this thread must be prepared for SPOILERS about Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince. If you don't like SPOILERS, don't read any more. Back out quickly and close this window until you've read the book.


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Whew.

Alright, I finished this book at 3 a.m. Sunday morning. Started it after I got home from the midnight party but I was so sleepy I only got to page 30 or so. Then I spend all day yesterday (except for those half a dozen hours of family time) reading.

And WOW!

Never in a million years did I expect what happened to happen. Of all the characters who might have been killed off, only Ron, Hermione or Harry would have shocked me more. And how it happened and by who was almost as big of a freak for me as who it happened to. I kept expecting Snape to turn around and point his wand the other way.

Now I'm completely at a loss about Snape. Through the last five books, I've detested him right along side Harry because of how nasty he's been. Except I've always figured there was something we (the readers and Harry) didn't know that explained why Dumbledore trusted him so much. I figured eventually we would learn a big secret, and even after Chapter 2 of HP6, when Snape made that Unbreakable Vow with Draco's mother, I figured he was acting as some kind of double agent.

So now I have no idea what to think. Clearly he is evil. Clearly he is working for the dark side. So why do I keep thinking there is some other explanation? Why do I keep expecting Dumbledore to pull a Gandalf and explain that Snape had faked everything?

How about those romances?! I've always had a thing for Hermione and Ron. It's so great to see them acting like real 16 year olds. I loved how Harry just suddenly realized his feelings about Ginny. The monster that grew in his chest! What a great analogy.

Really, I'd have to say that out of the six books so far, I think this one is my favorite.

And I cannot believe I now have to wait two or so years to see how it all ends. Ugh!

Lynn

Wait! I thought there were spoilers! Who died? Tell me!!! I need to know . I just ordered my book today, so I won't get to read there for a few weeks. So who dies? What does Snape do?

I need *real* spoilers .

Laura, are you serious? I will be happy to tell you, either here or via private e-mail. I just didn't want to totally come out and say it just in case you don't really want them...

I'm hoping this thread becomes a great discussion where we will talk about events which constitute huge spoilers, thus my big time spoiler warnings. But since it's still too soon, I was afraid of going overboard. But I'm happy to tell you if you really do want to know.

Lynn

Snape was the biggest surprise to me. I had a feeling near the beginning that I knew who wasn't going to make it, and I was right.

But Snape.... I always felt a little sorry for him after finding out how he had been tormented by James Potter and friends. I just figured that he couldn't have been as bad as he was portrayed to be.

And now we have to wait for book 7. Sigh. I'm in withdrawal already.

Irene

I find it very hard to believe that anyone over the age of 12 would read these books.

Tank (who was forced to listen to about an hour of one of the Harry Potter books on tape and was immensly unimpressed)

Tank, I know that the maxim "different strokes for different folks" applies very much in the case of reading material choices. But I have to say - and honestly, no offense intended toward you - that I really do think that believing that these books can only be appreciated by children and that adults are in some way "off" if they enjoy them shows a lack of open mindedness that staggers me. I read an editorial printed in the LA Times wherein the writer actually called adult readers of the HP books "stupid." I won't use the word for what I thought of this particular writer whom I have no doubt has read not one word of the books himself yet condescends to pass judgment on those who have.

And I won't try to convince you otherwise regarding what I see as the incorrectness in your statement because it would be a pointless and wasted effort. You are certainly entitled to believe that these books are meant for children and only children should enjoy them. However, IMO, unless you've read all the books, I think it's a bit presumptious to make such a broad statement.

Kind of like someone wondering why any rational adult would love watching a show about a man who flies around in tights after only having watched the opening credits.

Lynn

Absolutely 100% serious!

I'm still reading and I've chosen to be spoiled. Now I don't know all the circumstances surrounding the murder but my thoughts, based on chapter 2, are:

What if he's not really dead, that it was a trick so that Moldyshorts believes that Snape is still loyal to him?

Again, because I am not up to that part yet, I don't know the details yet. I only know what I've managed to uncover before I got my hands on the book. I do know that JKR has said that the reason why DD trusts Snape so much is revealed in this book ... has it been?

I'm a little disappointed at the ships in this book, but hey, they are only in school and my AU fanfic will live on. <G> You would be amazed how many H/H shippers are abondoning their writing ... I think that's being a little over sensative but it's their call. )

I'm getting there, slowly but surely.

Coming from a huge fan of comic books, this is hilarious, Tank

PJ

A couple of months ago, I was watching the 'newsround' on the BBC (a news programme designed for children), and they had a story about who was likely to die. Apparently, a couple of people working at the printers had apparently placed bets at the local betting shop. I was really cross, because the story came out of nowhere, no spoiler warning or anything.

So, anyway, I wasn't surprised about who died. (And I half expected it, anyway. Mind you, my guess would have been that the person who died would have met their end in a different way. Oh, yeah. I had theories which are so wrong it's now painful to think of them.)

What I didn't expect was the whole thing with Snape. I'm still in shock. Completely and utterly.

Chris (still incoherent)

While my oldest daughter has read everyone of these books up to number five (we're saving 6 for Grandma to buy) and I'm a big fan of the movies, I still say Rowling has nothing on the Brothers Grimm or Hans Christian Andersen.

Now THOSE guys were scary!

TEEEEEEJ/who recalls a certain comic book store is quite full of superhero plush toys and action figures for childern of ALL ages Tank

P.S. tell those stock guys I want those Black Fury temporary tatoos next time I come in.

Actually, there's a very long tradition of fantasy for children being appreciated by adults. Long before JK Rowling. IMO, the very best of children's fantasy are the ones that can also be appreciated by the young at heart, no matter what their age. The Narnia novels are one example. Enjoyed by generations, from 8 - 80, as they say.

I worked in a library for ten years and I found more than once that the children's' fantasy authors wrote the most complex, enthralling stories I'd ever read. They can certainly hold their own among the adults. And sometimes they can beat them into a cocked hat.

For myself, I've never let it bother me what age group a book is supposedly aimed at. What matters to me, purely and simply, is whether it's a darn good rollicking tale.

And certainly for many adults and children the HP novels hit the spot.

I haven't actually been bitten by the HP bug. I may well read them at some point, but at the moment there are so many other books on my to read list that are ahead of them on the list.

Even so, I came into this thread because I'm intrigued by the discussion, regardless. Perhaps I might read something that sparks that interest. Who knows? Or maybe I'll just enjoy vicariously the sheer pleasure so many take in these novels and wish them well of it, remembering the pleasure I've taken in my own most favourite books.

Enthusiasm is always engaging imo. Whether you share it or not.


LabRat

Okay, Laura, you asked for it.

I'm sure you've guessed by now that one of the key characters dies, and that key character is Dumbledore. It's not too hard to figure out if you see that there is a lot of time spent on this character during the balance of the book - we finally have some major Dumbledore action.

What really shocked me most, though, is that Snape is the one who kills him. Flat out, cold. And from all indications, it was really Snape (not someone dressed up like Snape) and Dumbledore is really dead (as opposed to a missing body).

What I didn't like at all was the reasons given for Dumbledore's blind trust in Snape all these years. Apparently, Snape was the one who ran to Voldemort with the prophecy information which lead to Voldemort going to the Potters and killing James and Lily and almost killing Harry. Even though Snape hated James with a passion, supposedly he felt horrible about his part in the deaths and confessed all to Dumbledore, including a lot of rubbish about regrets. This remorse is supposedly the reason Dumbledore has always trusted Snape. I find this kind of flimsy since Dumbledore has always been portrayed as a very wise person and good judge of character.

Like I said in my first post, I'm still not 100% convinced that Snape is truly a bad guy. I mean, I know that nothing is written in stone about what JK Rowling *has* to do, but six books' worth of ambiguity about Snape's loyalty all to have him turn to the dark side now seems like a really big cheat. I'm already having a hard enough time with Dumbledore's death in that he's one of the Big Good Guys who I imagined would make it to the very end.

I guess we'll find out in two years!

Lynn

Oh my god. I finished the book at 1 in the morning. I'm still speechless.

Ditto...there's...just something fishy about the whole thing. I mean for Snape to spend all this time at Hogwarts, only to be Voldemort's agent the whole time? He coulda 86'ed Dumbledore from day 1 and gone onto something else. Or at least, that's what I would have done.

Me either, but...I don't know. I guess if you want badly enough to believe that someone's telling the truth *shrug*... Kinda reminds me of a certain superhero who wants to believe there's good in everyone. <g>

My latest thought is, I don't get why Snape tried to stop Quirrell from stealing the stone in Book 1 if he's really been on Voldey's side all this time.

K, I'm out of thoughts for now,
Jen

Ooohhh, good point, Jen. Why wouldn't Snape have snatched the stone (and remember, Harry suspected Snape of doing just that!) back in Book 1, despite the fact that such a turn would have negated Books 2 thru 7?

Annette - I meant to remark on your shipper comment. So, are there really people out there who expected an H/H pairing? That totally baffles me because so many huge hints have been dropped all along that Hermione and Ron would eventually end up together. Even in the PoA movie, one of my favorite moments is when H, H, and R are watching what they think is the execution of Buckbeak, and Hermione turns to Ron in her grief and he comforts her. Harry was also standing right there, but she instinctively turned to Ron. I figured JKR had to approve that scene as it was script-written with directions to the actors, so it's what she intended.

I figure Harry will remain partner-less with maybe just a hint of a future with Ginny by the end of Boook 7. I figure as the Chosen One, he has to be kind of a loner. Also, I figured if H and H ever got together, the balance of the trio would shift too much. I think of Harry, Hermione and Ron as a triangle, with Hermione and Ron as the base and Harry as the tip. If Harry paired up with Hermione, the entire structure tilts to one side and Ron is left out. But if Hermione and Ron get together, they form a more stable base for Harry. I know, kinda of weird reasoning.

And I liked Harry with Ginny. I liked the idea of the little sister with the crush who turned into the young lady with so much appeal that Harry's eyes are finally opened. *sigh*

Lynn

Okay, I just finished the book five minutes ago. And all I can say is

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!

I think I would have preferred even Ron or Hermione to die than Dumbledore. But the worst thing was that I was reading something about this book on a newspaper website around midnight UK time on Friday and I almost clicked on a link with more stuff about the expected sales... and then I saw the URL. The last words of the URL were Dumbledore_death. I was furious. I had no idea if it was speculation, a real spoiler or something unrelated to the specific book. But it meant that I was half-expecting, half-afraid of this happening all along.

As for it being Snape... well, I'm appalled too. It's almost doing the expected, making him one of the bad guys. All along, he's seemed to be bad but in fact was good - he saved Harry's life in Book 1 and helped save the Philosopher's Stone; he helped Lupin; he helped Dumbledore; he gave Umbridge fake potions; and so on. I find it hard to buy him being a bad guy all along - and, like Lynn and others, Dumbledore's reason for trusting him is way, way too thin.

So my bottom line is that I really didn't like the last few chapters. Bad choice of character death, for me - though I see Harry's point about every one of his protectors having been taken from him so now he has to stand up for himself - bad setting up for Snape to be a bad guy after all, and - at least, I think - bad decision on Harry's part to stay away from school next year. It feels too stupidly noble, and too clichéd - the brave hero has to walk away from everyone he knows and loves so that he won't bring any harm to them.

Roll on Book 7, all the same - and I'm hoping I'll like the way things turn out! But something about the series is spoiled for me now - I'm not looking forward to the next book the way I was with the last two.


Wendy

I'm still halfway through book 4 (have been for a couple of years as it hasn't really fascinated me as much as 1, 2 and 3 yet), so I thought I'd read this thread as by the time I read book 6, we'll all be old and retired.

Anyway, I'm not entirely surprised that Dumbledore is the one who dies. However, I'm really, really amazed that Snape is the one who kills him, and I really hope there's some kind of trick where it turns out he's not the one doing that.

Like what you guys said, I always thought Snape was not really a bad guy, but just a very strict teacher. Okay, he's the head of Slytherin, but if Slytherin was totally bad, would it stay at Hogwart's? Unless Dumbledore somehow thinks he needs a balance between good and evil, but that would be kind of been there, done that, for plenty of other books and other creative works. And yes, he actually saved Harry's life in The Philosopher's Stone. So why would he do that if he'd been the one giving out the information to Voldemort about where Harry and his parents were hiding?

Also, as a H/H shipper, I'm of course not very keen on the Hermione/Ron relationship, although it was of course very much expected. Oh well, there's always fanfic.

I'll still read the book, though... once I finally manage to get past book 4 and race through book 5.

Kaethel

I finished this book yesterday, and boy, was I depressed. I mean how could Dumbledore die, and why did it have to be Snape?! WHY!!! I'm tempted to find an address and grab the pitchforks and torches. But something strikes me... Before book 5 came out, there were of course rumors of someone dying. Jo confirmed this, and said she cried when she wrote that chapter. I haven't heard anything like that about this book, though. Hrm... (yes, I'm trying to delude myself)

As far as the relationships go, ooooh, I was gloating for most of the book. I can't help it, but I was. Well, that and looking for a good heavy cast-iron skillet, because Hermione and Ron were just being stupid.

I don't really think this one will be my favorite of the series. In fact, it's my least favorite. Not just because of the deaths, but because it seems like a fanfic, and not in a good way. More like what I'd find in another fandoms. I had to keep reminding myself that I'm reading a bound book, and not electronic format. It was unsettling.

My comment was not meant as an attack on any idividual (and I apologise to any who took it as such). Rather it's an opinion of the books and the writing style from the exposure that I've personally had with them.

I'm all for anything that will get kids to read, and for that I think the books have done a great service. I also (as was pointed out) am someone who has read comic books for years and read fantasy of many kinds, including the Narnia books (though that was a long long time ago). But as I mentioned, I was subjected to several chapters of one of the books on tape sometime back and found the author's style not to my liking.

I could see where her writing might appeal to a younger crowd, but I didn't feel the duality of levels that would allow an adult to enjoy the work also.

Maybe the fact that the main characters are all children was a factor in my assessment. I mean, really, who could enjoy any story centered around children as the main protagonists?

Tank (who also is negatively predisposed to anything given the amount of pre-release hype that these books get)

Warning, many detailed spoilers ahead.


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Apparently like everyone else, I finished the book sometime in the wee hours of Saturday night/Sunday morning. I have to admit I wasn't terribly surprised that Dumbledore was the one to be killed. I kept hoping I was wrong but was disappointed to find out he was the one. It does make a bit of sense. If Harry's to stand on his own two feet, he does have to get out from under Dumbledore's protection.

I also wasn't surprised it was Snape who killed him. After all, Snape did take the Unbreakable Vow at the beginning of the book. If Draco failed, he was obligated to kill Dumbledore else the cost was his own life. Whether he took it as a calculated risk that his cover or his life was more important than Dumbledore's or whether he really was evil, we'll find out in book 7. I simply couldn't see Draco killing anyone, no matter how bratty he was.

And considering how noble Dumbledore was, I wouldn't have put it past him to consider that he was sacrificing himself for Harry's sake and telling Snape to kill him since it wasn't like him to plead. He kept saying that Harry's life was worth far more than his. Of course I have no idea why Dumbledore didn't do a freeze on the person coming through the door, thus allowing himself to be disarmed unless he thought there was an army coming through instead of just Draco.

Maybe Dumbledore intends to come back like Obi-Wan Kenobi? <g> "Harry, you will go to Godric's Hollow. There you will learn from R.A.B., the Wizard Master who instructed me."

Consider that Snape stopped someone from killing Harry. Would Voldemort really be all that upset if Harry was dead because of an overenthusiastic Death Eater? That's another possibility pointing to Snape's redemption. I still think he's really evil, though. Anyone besides me keep thinking "Abra Cadabra" every time someone invokes the killing curse, "Avada Kedavra"?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the bad guys say that Dumbledore's greatest weakness was his trust in people's goodness? If so, the most powerful wizard in the world could conceivably be fooled by a truly evil Snape.

If JK Rowling did reveal the reason behind Dumbledore's trust in Snape to be his regret that he got James and Lily killed, it was a truly lame reason. Nobody's that stupid.

As for Snape being the Half-blood Prince, that threw me for a loop. While I suspected him near the beginning since Snape was the Potions master, the age of the book made me think otherwise. Since the book was 50 years old, I figured it had to be someone around the time of Tom Riddle. I even thought that Tom Riddle might have been the HBP since he was born of a Muggle father. Or it might have been Slughorn since he was the new Potions master who had been around at the time of Tom Riddle. I tossed that theory when it was revealed that Slughorn was a teacher 50 years ago and not a student.

Anyone have a guess as to the identity of R.A.B.? Whoever it is has to be a very powerful good wizard, though, to get through the trap. A wild guess on my part would be Slughorn since he seems to be the only one identified who knows what a Horcrux is. And he was bitterly regretful that he had told Tom Riddle what it was.

What I thought was amusing was that once again, Hogwarts couldn't keep a Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher for longer than one year. That was another reason I suspected Snape might be a bad guy. The first thing I thought when Snape was made DDA teacher was that, "uh oh, Snape's not going to be a teacher next year." LOL

As for Tank's contention that the writing style wasn't to his taste, I have to agree with him in that regard. I tried reading the Sorcerer's Stone many years ago but could never get past Chapter 2. I simply didn't care for the style, thinking it was too childish. So that book went by the wayside. It wasn't until this last December that I saw the three movies over two nights that made me even remotely interested in the series. When I got back from my European trip, I read all five books in early January this year. The plot was interesting enough to get me past the slow parts at the beginning.

Anyone know why Rowling titled the first book, "The Sorcerer's Stone," in the United States and "The Philosopher's Stone" everywhere else in the world? Seems a bit strange to have to publish different English language versions and film two different sets of scenes just for that minor difference.

Anyway, I enjoyed the book. It was very suspenseful and hard to put down. The series had definitely left the realm of children's books around the time of "The Prisoner of Azkaban" and arguably around the time of "The Chamber of Secrets." That was one scary basilisk. The series is far too dark for small kids. In the last book, I can't even think of a part that's FOR children. I won't even consider letting my kids see these until they're ten or so, and even then, with serious parental supervision.

Surprisingly enough, I do know this one. <g> Not JK's decision of course, but, as always, the American publishers. Who, like many American TPTB, thought that US readers would be too dumb to know what a Philosopher was and that Sorcerer would be much more easy to understand.

They really do underestimate you guys a lot, don't they?


LabRat

Suprisingly enough, as I understand it, that's the age group they are written for

I have a friend who teaches 4-5 year olds, she was absolutely livid that some of her kids' parents had taken them to see the films. They had come back, understandably, very scared. They're childrens' books because they are written for under-18s, not because they are suitable for all children.

I also have a feeling, that part of the plan was to write a series that would 'grow up' with the readers. Certainly, the ten year olds I knew who read the first book are now in their late teens...

Of course that falls down when you get ten year olds picking up the first book now, they're not going to wait a year or two before they read the next one in the series.

But I was reading some very grown up and dark books at 10, and it didn't do me any harm. Well, not much... :p

And if you want to see how dark childrens' books can get, I can highly recommend Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy. These are definately for the older teens though. They make Harry Potter look like a, well, a pretty bog-standard series about wizards and boarding schools, two popular subject matters in the long tradition of British children's writing....

Sorry. :rolleyes: Don't get me wrong, I do like Harry really. Honest.

Helga

Actually, I think this is one of the strengths of the books (and a weakness, which I'll speak to in a sec). Very much like the Little House books written by Laura Ingalls Wilder, I've appreciated how the tone and complexity of the books has matured along with the main characters. The first books are easier to read whilst the later ones are more difficult (bigger words, more complex scenes and plot lines).

But as my mother, who works in a bookstore, pointed out to me, the problem is that these books were written for young kids with the intention that the readers and Harry would grow up together. As Harry matured and the books became darker, ostensibly the readers would be able to handle it because they, too, had matured by an equal amount, at least.

But what happens now that all of the books are available and a 10 year old can pick them up and read them sequentially? My mom has a hard time recommending these to parents of the kids on the low end of the age range.

I haven't let my kids watch the movies, both because I think they are too scary and because I want them to read the books first. I'm thinking I'd like them to at least be 9 or 10 before getting started. The very idea of a hero who's parents were brutally murdered is a pretty tough subject.

As to the name change, I'd heard what Lab heard as well. It's funny but reading this book, I noticed a lot of places where the language was changed a tiny bit to suit the US audience, and I only noticed this because as I read I knew it wasn't the UK way to say things. For example, every time a character went to the hospital, they did exactly that - went to the hospital instead of going to hospital.

I read an article about her American editor - apparently she has both a British editor and an American editor, and they both get together to create a single "editorial suggestions" presentation.

Lynn

Now that I've had some time to let the shock of it all sink in, here are my thoughts. (As someone else has let the proverbial cat out of the bag, I no longer feel too bad about bandying names or thoughts about.)

Still, I guess I'd better say...

SPOILERS AHEAD!

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As I hinted in my previous post, I wasn't surprised that Dumbledore had died. I was pretty sure that he was going to die either in book six or in book seven, even before I heard that rumour a couple of months ago. I was, however, very surprised at the way he went. I had wondered whether he had been using Nicolas Flamel's elixir of life, so when the philosopher's stone was destroyed in book one, he was, essentially, signing his own death warrant.

That might, of course, still be the case and is the only way I can think of that would allow Snape to have killed Dumbledore and still be on the side of good. A 'hey, he was going to die anyway, and this keeps me in with the Dark Lord,' kind of thing. I can't see that happening, though. If it does, I won't be very happy because… Well, you'll see.

Snape. Ah, Snape. I'm not sure whether I feel impressed by J K Rowling that she got me to fall into the whole Snape is really a decent guy in search of redemption trap and therefore was shocked by his actions, or whether I feel really, really manipulated. Certainly, I feel… cheated, I guess. Then again, I'm sure I'm supposed to feel cheated, shocked, appalled… Isn't that what Dumbledore would have felt, too? Assuming that Snape really is evil, through and through.

The thing is, despite his nastiness, I actually liked Snape. He had depth. He was interesting. If he really is dark, then he is actually a very two-dimensional character who has been given dimension by the way others have perceived him, and the way the perceptions of the other characters have been filtered through to the reader. As I say, it's either very clever, or very manipulative.

Oh, and I agree. Dumbledore's reason for thinking that Snape had repented was unbelievably flimsy.

In a way, I want Snape to be good, because I care / cared for this character. But in another, if he does turn out to be good after everything in this book, I will feel doubly cheated. One about-face I can take. A second would be too much.

I was very disappointed with the way that the Slytherins were dealt with in this book, too. Are there really no good Slytherins? Snape. Evil. Blaise. As horrible as the rest of Malfoy's cronies. Malfoy… Well, the jury's out on him at the moment, because at least he failed to carry out the last part of his task. All the way through the series, I have thought that there must be decent Slytherins out there somewhere, but maybe I was wrong.

Harry. You know, the older he gets, the less I think I like him. I'm caught up in the stories, yes. And I'll be waiting to see what happens in book seven. But like Wendy, I'm not so excited about it as I have been about the previous ones. There is a darkness in Harry that I don't appreciate; I could just about forgive him for trying Crucio at the end of book five, but… Why doesn't anyone (other than Snape!) ever actually take him to task for this?

In fact, that brings me to another point. The characterisation of Harry here seemed almost… flat. He seemed very accepting of everything that had happened at the end of book five. I'd have liked to see him dealing with his grief. Okay, so I didn't expect an angst fest, but a little more depth would have been good. Same goes for his interaction with Dumbledore. I find it hard to understand Harry's loyalty to him, after everything Harry has found out / been through.

To be honest, rather than a book in its own right, it seemed to be setting things up for book seven, moving the characters into the places that J K R wants / needs them to be.

I agree with Wendy that the idea of Harry not returning to school leaves me cold. He really doesn't know enough to go against Voldemort.

(As an aside, here, I'd like to point out that I think the cleverest of Harry's generation are probably Fred and George Weasley. They may not have many formal qualifications, but look at what they create! Hermione is bright, certainly, but it is book learning. And Harry… Yes, he's brave and noble (when he's not trying to cast the cruciatus curse, that is), but he struggles to learn his spells. Compare that with what we know of Harry's parents, of Sirius, of Snape and Voldemort. They were all pretty creative in their own ways. I really don't get the sense that Harry is up there with them, so how he is going to tackle Voldemort is beyond me, at least at present.)

The relationships. I could have lived without the Harry and Ginny thing. It struck me as completely unnecessary. And contrived.

The best things about the book? Voldemort. Who we never actually saw. At least we've learned a lot more about him. He really is evil! Psychopathic evil, in my opinion. And, yes, there was shock value to Snape.

I remember that I got half way through Order of the Phoenix, thinking, okay, when is the plot going to begin, and then realising that, hey, the tensions with the Ministry of Magic was the plot. In this one, I had the same feeling. There was a lot of reading before anything really began to happen. However, in book five there was a kind of claustrophobic seige thing going on, which added tension for the reader. That was definitely lacking here.

Yes, I'm glad I read it. Yes, I read it compulsively. Yes, I will read book seven; I've invested too much time and emotion to want to duck out now. But, no, this isn't may favourite. Not by a long way.

Chris

P.S. On the Sorcerer's / Philosopher's Stone thing... The first time I read about Nicolas Flamel and his philosopher's stone, it was in an American fanzine, way before I came across Harry Potter. How ironic is that?

Thanks, Lynn and Chris for the wonderful spoilers. I don't have anything intelligent to add, though, because I just ordered my book yesterday.

I understand what you mean, Chris and Wendy, about being not so happy with Harry's decision not to go back to Hogwarts for his final year. I don't see him as a powerful enough wizard to be able to accomplish the tasks given to him. Part of me understands the desire to take Harry out of the school environment since he's fairly limited in what he could do from there and also the books have become almost formulaic where school is concerned. However, Harry out of Hogwarts seems like a completely different type of book.

Which leads me to mention something I saw in an Amazon review that I completely agree with. From what we've gotten out of HBP, Harry must find and destroy 4 Horcruxes, a couple of which are not specifiec, then find and kill Voldemort, while also possibly gaining revenge upon Snape. Such a quest is pretty extensive - I'm not sure how JKR plans to see it out in only one more volume. Do you think the last book will come in around 1000 or so pages? Seems like a lot of strings to tie up. Perhaps the Trio will split up to accomplish things more quickly.

Lynn

Oh, BTW - I've read some interviews with JKR and now have an idea of how Snape might be redeemed. This is pure speculation, but I don't want to say anything here if people wouldn't like to think about what might happen. Is it okay to say what I think might happen?

I'm with everyone on Dumbledore and Snape. Very unexpected and quite unbelievable. I was aware of the rumours, hoping against hope it wouldn't be true. It just doesn't make sense to me, for all the reasons already mentioned.

I had a high opinion of Dumbledore's judgement and find it very hard to believe he made a huge mistake with Snape. I'm sure there's more to it. After all, how many times did Harry raise his suspicions about Draco and Snape? And time and again did DD say Harry was wrong, while all along DD knew about Draco's intentions. So he should have known about Snape. Especially since he knew how good Snape was at Occlumency. There's definitely more to all this.

I do find Harry doesn't deal with panick very well. At first in the train, then on the island with DD and finally on the tower. Harry had a chance to save Dumbledore... he could have used a non-verbal charm like he tried in the train. I am quite surprised Rowling didn't look into that, or in more of Harry's deeper feelings. I feel there's more to explore there (yeah, I know that's the angst area, what can I say <g>).

In any case, I look forward to the last book. I'm sure we'll all be surprised at the outcome there.

Saskia

A major ditto. I mean, Harry either needs to change his mind and spectacularly finish up his schooling, or I'll just be waiting for him to be 86'ed on the first spell if he ever runs into Voldemort. Now then again, what happened with Harry's run-in with Voldey in Book 4? I need to re-read that book at some point and refresh my memory.

Ooh! I'm totally game for that!

Jen

What if Snape was under an imperious curse or something? Or had been ordered by Dumbledore to do so, and Harry finds the memory and can view it in the pensieve? And what about the pheonix thing in the end? I think that's going to turn out to be something more.

I think there's more to this than meets the eye. JK Rowling hasn't been one to resort to stereotypes yet.

What? You've never read LoTR? Or anything in the fantasy genre? There are a lot of angles to enjoy the books from. Everyone can get something out of it. You don't have to be physically a kid.

Haven't you ever heard of the phrase "a child at heart?"

I guess I was just blessed (or cursed) with a huge amount of imagination, but I find it difficult to really enjoy books that are not in the sci-fi/fantasy/horror genres.

There are some exceptions (Dean Koontz, for example, but he often uses supernatural/sci-fi elements in his stories, and some of the earlier Tom Clancy books were good). However, unless a general fiction book is very well-written, I tend to find them extremely boring.

I don't want to read about reality, I read to escape from reality. But maybe that's just me.

I feel really weird commenting on this as I have only read the first book, but I'm an avid watcher of the movies and my oldest daughter tells me the material in these books in pretty good detail and so I gotta think Emily, you have a strong case here.

There was this old movie called Dragonquest. Had the short blonde lawyer from Ali McBeal in it. He was a wizard's apprentice and when the wizard was killed, he had to carry the wizard's ashes to the cave where the dragon lived and dump the ashes in the water. The wizard came back strong enough to kill the dragon on its home turf.

Dumbledore had a pet Phoenix (I only know that from watching Chamber of Secrets so forgive my stating the obvious)so couldn't Dumbledore have some sort of contingency magic from the Phoenix to bring him back?

Sound plausible?

Just an idea from Aunty TEEEEJ.

TEEEEEJ

I wouldn't exactly say that Harry has trouble learning his spells like Ron. Harry's done pretty well on his O.W.L's and has gotten some pretty decent grades overall with an Outstanding on his Defense Against the Dark Arts. That's Harry's special talent. Only a wizard of great power could have produced a Patronus like he did. Of course he's no Hermione when it comes to sheer brilliance and magical ability, but he's still in the upper echelon of his class, and even Hermione couldn't compete with him in DADA. She only got an "Exceeds Expectations." He seems like he has trouble because he's inexperienced and is going up against the major baddies like Voldemort and now Snape, especially when he's using the Half-blood Prince's spells against him. Of course Snape blocks them with ease.

Now Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs were essentially a gang of troublemakers. They were very inventive in their spellcasting because they were "up to no good." Fred and George are the nearest comparison I'd make to that group. They're always trying to figure out unorthodox ways of doing things.

The most you can say of Harry is that he is not in the same vein as his father. Trouble finds him rather than the other way around. And he's muddled through quite well, going head-to-head with Voldemort four times and has come out on top 3 out of 4 times and has survived each encounter.

Yeah, this is what I suspect. Dumbledore wasn't stupid, so I think he'd have thought about something like that. He'd have never used a Horcrux, but perhaps, there's some other spell we don't know about. Or maybe it wasn't even Dumbledore, maybe it was someone else with polyjuice potion, but we were meant to think it was Dumbledore.

I realize that he has to be out of commission for a while so Harry can do what he has to do alone, but there's no reason he can't be brought back at the very end of book 7.

Yeah, Emily's thinking along the same lines I am. I'm predicting that Snape killing Dumbledore was intentional. That Snape and Dumbledore worked this out before hand - why else would Dumbledore be so anxious to get Snape to come to him when he was so weak? I'm guessing that Dumbledore knew that Draco had been directed to kill Dumbledore, and to save the young boy from that evil, Dumbledore told Snape to do it.

Meanwhile, I'm guessing that Dumbledore has arranged something like a Horcrux with Fawkes the phoenix. I'm predicting that when Fawkes flew away at the end, he's carrying Dumbledore's spirit or something. Dumbledore had assured Snape that in "killing" him it would only be temporary.

So Harry will face Voldemort alone, Snape will be revealed to be working for the side of good, and Dumbledore will appear again.

My predictions, for what they're worth.

Lynn

Lynn, Wendy et. al:
I read this commentary which tied up quite a few loose ends for me:

http://www.livejournal.com/users/garlandgraves/3409.html

What do you think?

Joy, thanks for the link. That was fascinating and seemed very reasonable as far as predictions go. My only difference in opinion is that I think the reason Snape killed Dumbledore is because the two had pre-arranged it. I'm not as convinced that Dumbledore knew he was certain to die so just went along with it. I'm still hanging on to my theory that the two teachers had planned that when the time was right, Snape would "appear" to kill Dumbledore, knowing that Dumbledore's spirit or essence was safe with Fawkes.

The reason I don't openly embrace the Dumbledore knew he was going to die idea is because I don't think he'd make Snape take on the title of murderer. I think Dumbledore decided to "let" Snape kill him knowing that Snape would only be condemned for a limited amount of time, his guilt becoming absolved when Dumbledore returns from the dead to reveal the entire thing was a plot.

Again, just speculation.

But I have to say that the idea that RAB is Regulus Black came to me the other night. I was struggling to figure out who had the initials RAB and remembered Sirius had a brother whose name started with an R. This LiveJournal post confirms my thoughts, although I didn't remember much of what was said about Regulus. I'll have to go back to OotP and reread.

This is fun.

Lynn

Impressive reasoning. I read the link, which makes a lot of sense. I can see how Dumbledore, knowing he will die anyway, is pleading not for his salvation but for death. I even mentioned a few posts ago that it wasn't like him to plead. But he's pleading not on his own behalf. As two accomplished wizards, it would be easy for Dumbledore to communicate silently in Snape's mind. Snape doesn't want to do it, but knows he must, hence his expression of loathing. He's hating himself, not Dumbledore, for what he must do.

If this is indeed true, then Dumbledore is in all likelihood dead for good. And Snape is likely still on the side of good. What could put in him better with the Dark Lord than to destroy the only wizard that Voldemort fears?

It also explains why he froze Harry, rather than Draco. He's dying anyway, so escape wouldn't matter to him.

Hi all! A few things...

Who says that Snape knew that Voldy was in Quirrell's Head? Snape was on Dumbledore's side as far as anyone could see. Voldy might not have said anything while waiting to see which side he WAS actually on.

I'm not convinced that what we've seen/heard is all of Dumbledore's reasons...not by a long shot.

Snape didn't tell Voldy where the Potter's were hiding. That was Pettigrew. Snape told Voldy that there was a prophecy that the one whom could defeat the Dark Lord was to be born as the seventh month dies. I doubt that he was keeping an eye on the Potters at that time. He had no idea to whom it applied to. The Potters didn't even go into hiding until after the prophecy was made (probably around the same time Voldy was told).

I am not sure what is going on... but JKR has said repeatedly that he is not a nice man. I think that somethings were for his cover, but not too much. Even if he IS on the side of the light, and even when (not if ) Voldy is defeated, I don't think he is suddenly going to change to be a nicer person. He IS a Slytherin... and THAT at least is not an act. He can be wanting of redemption from truely evil deeds without being a nice/decent guy.

He could have... if he could have moved. Nonverbal spells still require wand movement.

I don't think that this is the case... there are too many things that point to his actual death. For one, DD said that the splitting of the soul only happens upon killing someone, and that it is a very evil thing and tarnishes the rest of your soul. I doubt very highly that DD would do that. And even if he found a way without that, Fawkes is horrendeously upset and lamenting Dumbledore's death... would he be if he had DD's spirit with him? Secondly, a portrait appears of Dumbledore in Minerva's (new) office. You can only have one if you are truely dead.

Regarding R.A.S. I immediately thought of Regulus upon reading the "note" in the locket. It just seems to fit perfectly.

I think that the link that was given by Joy Moody is very well thought out. I agree with pretty much everything he has to say.
-Breanna

I just closed the book. Right now I'm a little shell shocked but these are some of my thoughts.

I don't know if reading fanfic has had an influence on me but this was like reading a huge fanfic. <g>

Favorite line: "I don't want to stay here over night, I want to find McLaggen and kill him."

Favorite response: "I'm afraid that would be under the heading of 'overexertion'"

OMG I nearly died laughing at the whole McLaggen Quidditch experience!! I haven't laughed that hard since reading Nekkid Quidditch the first time.

and Luna commentating!! OMG!! Could. Not. Breath.

Ships: Harry and Ginny :p
Won Won and Hermione :p
Tonks and Lupin
Fluer really surprised me, not as shallow as you would have thought she would be. Good for her!

I found the MoldyVort back story fascinating! I like learning about him and what drove him to become what he has.

Dumbledor's death was not as shocking as I knew it was coming, but the circumstances around it, whoo. I think I take back what I stated earlier about Snape. If I were both Snape or Draco I wouldn't fancy on running into Harry in a dark alley.

All in all I enjoyed the book better than I did OoTP. I cried just as much with Dumbledor as I did with Sirius. How much more can Harry take.

I'm glad that Ron and Hermione plan on sticking with him. I love that trio-ness.

One of the moderators on a nfic list I am on commented that it paved the way for a nice threesome. <VEG>

Okay I'll leave it there. Want to troll some of the HP live journal sites to see what my favorite Harry/Hermione authors are saying.

It's going to be a long wait for book 7.

<sniffle> Just finished the last page. I can't say that it was like fanfic, 'cause I've never read much in the way of Harry Potter. <shrug> Nekkid Quidditch is about the only one I've read. (For those that haven't read it, it's hilarious) However, I do like that she started pairing people off.

Good book. I just wish that Dumbledore hadn't died. And as for Snape doing the killing and really being on Voldemort's side, well, I'm not sure what to believe. That LJ entry makes a heck-of-a-lot of sense. Then again, Snape has *never* been a nice person. I've been conflicted about him for quite sometime.

I do have to say that I loved Crabb and Goyle as little girls. <snigger> And the bit about Mr. Weasley's greatest ambition being to find out how planes stay up is great. Of course, I have yet to see anything as funny as Peeves obeying Fred and George to get rid of Umbridge in OoTP.

BrightFeather

Just about everything I wanted to say has been said, but this summed it up for me:

As I read the story, I kept looking at the cover to remind myself I wasn't reading something I'd stumbled across on the net.

I was a little surprised Dumbledore was killed, and I'm not sure if Snape is a goody or a baddy. I don't understand the reason for having Harry "carry on by himself." I've read an interview where JKR said it was more interesting for Harry to move forward alone than with Dumbledore as backup. If Harry's "power he knows not" is love, then does it make any sense to kill off everyone he loves? Also, he's not really alone, if Ron and Hermione are there with him. Snape was right when he said Harry has been lucky and surrounded by others more talented. Harry was pretty ineffective in those last chapters.

Anyone else find it strange that so many people in the books, by this age (ie sixteen) are experimenting with new spells, potions, exploring the limits of magic, etc... EXCEPT for Harry?

I was most disappointed in Hermione's character. Seemed a bit off somehow. In previous books, even if she didn't agree with Harry or what he was doing, she would always back him up. She didn't back him in anything in this book. Even about Draco. I found that extreamly odd. Her behavior in other instances was off as well. It was like another person all together.

Ships: Didn't really know what this term meant until a while ago, but I have to say, none of them made any sense to me.

Harry and Ginny? Of course, Ginny has had a thing for Harry for a while, but when has Harry ever seen anything in her? This seemed out of nowhere to me. I understand he's sixteen now, and the whole "raging hormones" thing. It still seemed out of the blue.

Ron and Hermione? They never actually hooked up, but I find the pairing questionable. Again, it's been easy to see that Ron has liked her for awhile now. I just don't see what Hermione would see in him? I took the time to re-read all the previous books before this one came out and by the end of OotP I was thinking "Wow - Harry and Hermione sure spend a lot of time together." and "Ron and Hermione don't do much except fight." Ron is about as opposite of Hermione as you can get. She sure came across as being jealous, though. I don't have anything against it, but it seems very strange to me that Hermione likes Ron in that way.

Lupin and Tonks. HUH? Gosh, I hate to go back and read OotP for a third time, but this one came out of nowhere and blind sided me.

Actually, all the pairings seem to come out of nowhere for me.

Also, where was Luna and Neville? We got a bit of Luna but not nearly enough. In OotP, Luna sort of seemed like she liked Ron, but that was almost non-existant in this book.

I don't know. This book is setting record sales, but I don't think it's that good. I think people are so anxious to see what happens next that they are buying it. (I checked my copy out of the library, and didn't have to purchase it). I'll probably read the seventh book, but I'm like many others, and not looking forward to it as much as I was the other books.

I'm still processing things, and I'm tempted to re-read it. It's not due back to the library until 8/6. I'm a bit troubled, and I don't really know why.

Jeff said: Yes. That's what I was getting at in my aside in my previous post. Fred and George are very creative; look at all the products they've made. But Harry learns things he is given to learn as, indeed, does Hermione. She's very clever, yes. But I don't see the creative flair in her, at least as yet.

Remus and Tonks: I was actually very happy about that one.

I came away from the book unhappy(ish), but it has stayed with me. And I have got some theories about what is going to happen in Book 7 now...

BTW: I also wondered about RAB being Regulus Black, and even went to check in OOTP to find out if we knew what his middle initial was. We weren't told.

Chris

Jeff, I'll agree with you 100% about Hermione. There are times where I wanted to hit her. Especially when she said (more or less) "I told you so" to Harry.

Compared to the last five books, she was very out of character.

Okay, I've never read a single HP fanfic. But all of you saying how much that HBP reminds you of a fanfic - and I've read this on reviews as well - makes me want to read some for comparison sake.

So, can someone please recommend me some EXCEPTIONALLY good HP fanfic? I mean, the best ever stuff, so good it seems almost professional? And I'm not remotely into Harry/Ron slash, so I'd want to skip that sort of stuff.

Thanks!
Lynn

Fanfiction.net has TONS of HP fics.

Many many good ones.

You can do a search for some with "complete" in the summary, or "finished" if you don't want to wait for some still in progress. Also, they normally state if they are slash, so you can avoid them.

Hem Hem Hem:

The good stuff:

http://fanfiction.portkey.org/index.php?act=newupdated
http://www.fictionalley.org/

My most favorite HP Author:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/silverbookworm/
http://www.livejournal.com/community/pgw_industries/
http://www.livejournal.com/users/madlorivoldmort/
http://www.livejournal.com/users/avonlea_dreamer/

http://www.livejournal.com/community/erotic_elves/

y'know, thinking back, I seem to recall reading a pretty good one that was set after Voldemort's death... way, way after. I got the link from an article that you'd scanned, Annette. I just don't remember much anymore, and I have no clue where to find it. <shrug> It was a couple of years and a different computer ago.

Laura

My assessment of the book.

Am I seriously the only one who noticed that Harry did a CLARK!?!

When Clark tells Lois that he's breaking up with her for her own good, he is an IDIOT. And she promptly gets exposed to poison gas, and kidnapped to be offered as a ritual sacrifice to activate a magical Celtic mask.

When Harry tells Ginny he is breaking up with her for her own good, he is an IDIOT. I hope she doesn't end up dead, killed at Hogwarts while the Trio are off battling evil. :p

LOL, rivka! I thought of that last night when I was watching Spider-Man 2. What is it with guys and their stupid oh-so-noble sacrifices? Clark, Harry, and Peter, all of them need to be beaten about the head.

Going back to fanfic I forgot the best HP fanfic of them all!

Nekkid Quidditch!!!!!!

http://www.nodignity.com/freaks/nqm/nqm1.html

Don't drink or eat while reading this!

I read a few posts on that link you gave, Rivka - fun to see all the discussion, and I'm definitely with you on Snape. He can't be evil. I just don't believe it, and it makes no logical sense whatsoever.

But what made me grind my teeth a bit is this:

Haven't some North American readers seen by now that 'graduation' isn't something that happens at Hogwarts??? In British/European schools, kids don't 'graduate' from school. They leave school. In Hogwarts' case, the kids will sit their NEWTS, leave, then get their results some time the following August. In the UK and Ireland, graduation is something that happens on completion of a university degree. (Kaethel tells me that in France there isn't even a graduating ceremony for university graduates! )

Which reminds me - do we know what the university for witches and wizards is?


Wendy

I believe Jo said there weren't any wizarding universities.

No doubt so that she wouldn't get badgered to write about Harry's university years... another three books!


Wendy

Wow, Wendy, I didn't know that about UK/European schools. So you mean that at the end of the 12 or 13 years of education that are considered pre-university (what we call grade/grammar school, junior high, and then high school) there is no graduation ceremony? No handing out of diplomas and wearing of caps and gowns? For us it is so much a right of passage, a formal moving into adult-hood. And since getting a job is so dependent on having at the very minimum a high school diploma, graduating is indeed an accomplishment that people strive for.

If a person "leaves" school, which at age 16 they are legally allowed to do, it is considered a very bad thing. So even though I know the context is different for how you use it, in the case of Harry leaving Hogwarts, I see it as him not having finished his formal education and not being qualified for whatever comes next. For example, he couldn't go to wizarding university without having completed his 7th year at Hogwarts. In the US, he'd be called a high school drop-out and he'd be looking at a job where he'd have to wear a polyester uniform and ask "Do you want fries with that?"

So interesting!

And thanks for the Fanfic recommendations! I can't wait to dive into some of them.

Lynn

Lynn,

Here's what happens in England and Wales (Scotland is different again ). I know that it is different in other places in Europe.

Some schools do stuff like have a Day of Celebration (which is what my school called it), where they hand out your exam result certificates. But because those don't arrive until sometime after the results are out in August, by that time people are off in the real world. Our Day of Celebration (it's one of those nice inclusive terms, it probably was once called Prize Giving Day or something) didn't happen until the next Easter, almost a year after you sat the exams. I don't know of any schools that have a graduation ceremony like the ones you guys have.

Education is compulsary until you're 16, but when you are 16 you sit your GCSEs (OWLs ). So even if you do leave at 16, you have completed your formal, compulsary education, and possibly have some qualifications too. There's a miriad choices of what you do next, that I won't try to really explain, because otherwise we will be here for a while, and this post is long enough.

One option is to study for A'Levels (NEWTs) and these are the traditional entry route to university (but you can get to university with a whole range of other qualifications now as well). These are often taught in the same school that you did your GCSEs at, but, like I said, there are lots of other options as well!

I think that the majority of people who leave school at 16 go onto study or work for a further qualification of some sort. But the ones that don't go on to further study post-16 are more likely to be the ones who didn't pass many of their GCSEs in the first place, and although we don't call them High School drop-outs, people do end up in the dead end jobs. If they get a job at all.

Nowadays, it's hard to get any where with out having some form of post-16 qualification, so yes, Harry is possibly setting himself up for a difficult time career-wise in the future. However, I think that he has other issues on his mind right now.

Plus, he does have the advantage of his reputation. I don't think he needs to worry too much

And it's different in our Muggle world, I'm sure Wizard papers don't spend so much time discussing the thousands of 16 year olds who leave school every year with no qualifications and no job and just disappear off the map...

I'll stop now. In summary, our education system is complicated.

Helga

And at the schools I went to, we didn't even have that.

Chris

Lynn, you're confusing a graduation ceremony with the acquisition of qualifications. Just as in the HP books, kids sit examinations and gain qualifications as a result. In England and Wales, they sit GCSEs at 16 and some will continue to sit A-Levels at 18 (if you really want to know what those stand for, I can tell you! :rolleyes: ). In Scotland, the school-leaving qualification is Highers. In Ireland, kids sit the Junior Certificate and then most will continue to the Leaving Certificate. In France it's the Baccalaureat. Other countries have their own qualifications.

So, unless a child leaves school at 16 - as they are legally entitled to do in the UK the April after their 16th birthday - before sitting GCSEs they're not 'dropouts' without qualifications. But, yes, there is a problem with kids leaving school with no qualifications; one big problem for the English/Welsh (not Scottish) labour market is the lower average staying-on rate in full-time education as opposed to kids in other countries.

Edit: Just read Helga's post - she says it so much better than I did. But the 'day of celebration' is pretty rare - I'd never heard of it before. As she says, the fact that exam results, in the UK and Ireland at any rate, don't appear until August, when kids have already finished school and may even have started their first jobs, makes it difficult to do anything like that. So no cap and gown - in fact, because there's no ceremony like that below university graduate level, that makes the university graduation ceremony all the more special.

Oh, and how do employers make hiring decisions if the results aren't out until August? There's such a thing as mock exams - they're a practice session for the real thing, conducted under the same conditions and marked at the same standard. Employers can ask how a school-leaver performed in the mocks and, of course, will get references from the school.


Wendy

I knew a bit about A-levels and O-levels before today.

But I never knew there's no high school graduation in the UK!

Consider me edumacated!

It seems like their post-Hogwarts education is largely apprenticeship-type training. I wonder if any of the muggle-born students have gone to a traditional university?

They aren't polyester anymore. <g>

I did it for 10 years, the last half was *with* a College Degree.

Back on the original topic, here's a reckless thought thrown in about why Dumbledore was so trusting of Snape. Maybe Snape took an Unbreakable Vow with Dumbledore? We don't really know anything about how much freedom people have when they've taken a vow or how the vow determines whether you've broken it, but say he was under a vow to do whatever Dumbledore tells him to do? When he's under two Unbreakable Vows, perhaps by Dumbledore telling Snape to kill him since he was dying anyway, he was able to satisfy both vows.

It's a better reason than the flimsy one about Snape being regretful for putting Voldemort on James's and Lily's trail. Just a guess.

It's a good guess, and one I have heard several other people (me included) suggest.

Certainly I do not believe that Snape's regret was Dumbledore's sole reason fro trusting him. There has to be more to it than that.

I haven't read through the whole thread yet, though I did read some posts, but I wanted to post this befoe I caught up.

Holy Crap, holy Mother of Pearl, good God.

I didn't expect Dumbledore to die (although by the time Dumbledore and Harry were in the cave, I sort of started getting used to the idea that it's probably him). For the whole book I kept thinking it'll be either Snape or Draco - if Draco fails he dies, and Cissy (I quite like that nickname <g>) did say he will probably not succeed anyway and might even die in the process, and of course Snape would die because he broke the Unbreakable Vow.

*Sob* Poor Dumbledore.

The thing I am most angry about, is that while we don't know everything about Snape (explanation to come), Draco is most definitely a Death Eater from what I can see. I never liked him much, obviously, but I never thought he was actually evil. Bah.

A good theory is posted here , and a friend of mine wrote some similar things here:

I think she has made quite a point, and I hope she's right.

By the way, did anyone else cringe when Harry broke up with Ginny? I was about to hit him with a club. First Clark, then Harry. Men. Lunkheads. <g>

Julie

Okay, just finished the book. (Yeah, I'm a slow reader these days... :-P )

Have to agree that I'm liking Harry less and less. I'm glad he's not a perfect Gary Stu, but he's become far too arrogant for my tastes.

Relationships -- it wouldn't have been such a big surprise if any one of those relationships had suddenly popped up. Maybe two. What got to me was that suddenly everyone was in love. The books have always downplayed relationships, leaving them to little more than subtle hints. Now, suddenly, everyone is kissing and dating and worrying about who might be dating their love interest. It's not so much that the relationships were indidivually out of the blue. It's that the entire concept of "relationships" was suddenly bumped up to the foreground.

Snogging -- I know what the word means, but... where the heck did it come from? To me, it's always sounded like it should have a negative/dirty connotation. It just has an ugly sound to it, especially with those Gs in the middle there forcing you to make a gutteral motion with your throat.

The big one -- Dumbledore. When I heard last book that someone major was going to die, I thought it would be him. Harry's coming of age, the plot is getting more tense. Removing his guardian/father figure would really up the tension. Killing Sirius sort of had the same effect, except that Sirius was never that big a part of the books. I didn't feel as much for him as JK seems to think I should.

This time, though... I went through the last couple of chapters simply not believing it. It made it very weird to read about the funeral and such. Thing is... I still don't believe it. Some of my thoughts have already been expressed, but I'm surprised that no one has mentioned this:

(Dumbledore talking to Draco, pages 591-592)

Got that? See what he offered Draco? He was going to fake Draco's death so convincingly that no one, including Voldemort himself, would even think to look for him and he was offering to do the same for Draco's mother, too, using members of the Order.

It was already established that Dumbledore knew what Draco was up to. He knew Draco would make his move. He'd told Harry not to interfere with Draco or Snape. He froze Harry under the cloak, forcing him to do nothing but bear witness. Harry, with the element of surprise, could have done something. Gotten Dumbledore's wand back. Used expellerama on an unprepared Snape. Something.

Oh, and Dumbledore insisted that he had a secret reason to trust Snape. Harry's guess as to why was just that... a guess. Snape is a member of the Order, and he was acting under Dumbledore's orders.

Snape also protected Harry from the Death Eaters, refusing to attack him and stopping the others when they tried.

The entire thing was a fake-out. Snape didn't kill Dumbledore. He, as a member of the Order, used their secret plan to fake someone's death.

I wouldn't be surprised if the plan included the entire scene inside the cave. Dumbledore insisted that Harry give him the potion to drink. All of it. No matter what. It could well be that the potion was actually part of the act. Partly to give Dumbledore a reason to appear weak (note, BTW, that Dumbledore did improve at certain key moments, when it was needed) and partly as part of the death scene itself. The potion could have protected him from Snape's curse in some way, perhaps transporting him away and leaving a decoy "body" behind.

The cave being part of it would make sense, since the Horcrux there was already gone and since Dumbledore had been so insistant that Harry would have to follow orders no matter what.

The only thing I don't like about that theory is that it leaves Harry with some excess guilt, knowing that he was the one who force-fed the potion to Dumbledore. (And I was kind of surprised that that was never mentioned...)

Basically, it's like sending Harry back to the Dursleys. It seems really evil, like it's putting Harry through unnecessary pain, but there's actually a very good but highly secret reason for it. In the case of the Dursleys, it's because Harry is protected as long as he can call their place home. In this case, it's because Dumbledore needs to be able to act freely, with everyone thinking him dead, so that he can help Harry in secret later. A surprise weapon at a crucial moment or something.

That's my take on it, anyway.

Oh... one last thing... Harry and Ginny's break-up. That actually reminded me more of the end of Spider-man. I'm hoping Ginny will make like MJ in the next book and convince Harry that the danger isn't the important thing. Seems like if Dumbledore is right and love is Harry's strength, then pushing the others away would be a bad idea. (BTW, why is he letting Ron and Hermione come if he thinks it's too dangerous to have loved ones about?)

Of course, the other possibility is that Harry will take out Voldemort, put an end to the whole thing, and then it'll be safe for him to go back to Ginny. We'll see.

Oh, wait. Another thought -- if Harry isn't going back to school next year, then there's no reason why there can't be an 8th book. 7 was one for each year at Hogwarts, but there's no reason now why things can't take another two years. The quest for the horcruxes, the fight with Voldemort, the aftermath... as has been pointed out, that's a lot of material. I suppose it could be done in one fast-paced book, where he gets the first horcrux at the beginning, the second 1/4 of the way through, the third 1/2 way through, the fourth 3/4 of the way through (all roughly), then the final showdown with Voldemort and the denouement for the last 1/4 or so.

Paul

Paul, my take on why everybody was suddenly in love is just the fact that they're coming of age. In the first book, the kids were only 11 years old, too young for most kids to be interested in the opposite sex yet. By this book, Harry is almost 17, though he started having "feelings" about Cho back when he was 14. So I don't think it's all that unusual. Now if they were all adults, I'd think pairing everyone up would be just a contrived wrapup to a series.

As for you theory about Dumbledore faking his own death, it's possible, but I think he's really dead just because the magic that places a portrait of previous, dead headmasters in the headmaster's office added a picture of a slumbering Dumbledore. Sure I think that Dumbledore could have faked it, but somehow I don't think so. You could be right, since we're all just guessing at this point.

I re-read Order of the Phoenix just to remind myself of what happened with all the references to book 5 in book 6. It seems that while I think Dumbledore's dead, it's possible that Sirius is not. We never got confirmation about exactly what spell he was hit by. Did Bellatrix actually hit him with an Avada Kedavra? Or was it another spell that stunned him? He fell behind the veil, so we're only guessing he's dead. He could very well be, but it is strange that JK Rowling wouldn't give us a body. I have a suspicion that the arch leading to the veil may make a reappearance in book 7 since it was never really explored in book 5.

I'm not sure if I think Dumbledore is really dead or not. On one hand, I think J.K. Rowling teaches some decent lessons in the book, and it might be a little... anticlimactic if we learn that death isn't really death. Even if it was just because somebody fixed their death. I know very well that when somebody you love dies, you will try everything you possibly can to deny it really happened, desperately wanting to believe that *something* isn't how it appears, that the person will be coming back to you.

On the other hand, I disagree with the portrait of Dumbledore in the headmaster's office as being "proof." They're portraits of "former headmasters." If Dumbledore has faked his death and left the school to fight bad guys or something of the sort, Professor McGonagall is now the headmistress (or maybe they'll elect a new one). Regardless, he's certainly a "former headmaster," now. Did all of the portraits only appear after retired headmasters had died? Or when they actually retired? I'm not certain we know for sure.

Also, there were a lot of suspicious things going on that night. I refuse to believe that Dumbledore didn't have a good reason to trust Snape, one that we still don't know about. And drinking the liquid... we never really found out what it did. Rowling doesn't usually leave loose ends like that. And the showdown between Dumbledore and Snape seemed like there was more going on underneath than we knew. So, I suppose I'm willing to wait for the next book to see.

Well, I just finished the book today, and though I did like it, mostly the last chapters, I found that it was mostly a book in which we are ginve information, plenty, but basically just info, and little action. My sister (who is really a HP fan ) is convinced that this is the best book so far, but I have to disagree...

Anyway, I think it was lynn who mentioned (the first time around, at least) the theorie of Snape and Dumbledore having agreed that Snape would kill D... Well, my sister thinks so too. I guess it could make sense. Snape could, after all, have gotten in a little too deep in his double game and as a way to keep up the pretense, it could make sense. But I honestly don't know. Who's going to believe Snape if he returns to the 'good side'? I don't see how he could convince the members of the Order.

On a different note, I had a technichal sort of question. Are there mistakes in the book? From a grammatical point of view, or in word use... I'm not a native, so some things can sound strange to me, but be perfectly correct. Other than many comas which felt misplaced, I recall reading something like: 'where they had been mere hours previously'. To me, mere hours+previosuly (my reference is Spanish, and Engliish and Spanish differ quite a bit sometimes) seemed a weird construction...

That's all for now; I'm stil in the proccess of fully digesting the book (but the word sad keeps cooming up ). Oh, and Harry's hero behavior bothered me a lot... I was thinking, here comes another Lunkhead!

EDITED: I forgot. If Dumbledore somehow 'resurrects' in the last book, I'll be truly disappointed. He was the object of a deadly curse, his body found (unlike that of sirius)... Though I hardly think it'll be the case. It's time Harry 'flies' without anyone's protection

Edited (a second time ): I've finally read through the whole thread. I asked my sister about this Dumbledore not being dead possibility, and she said JK has assured that he is dead.

Joining the party late – I just finished reading this book (began yesterday afternoon, finished it a couple of hours before). I haven’t read your comments yet – I wanted to write what I had to say on the book before seeing other people’s views that might affect me. But be sure I will proceed with reading all the posts once I post (I've been eager to read your comments for a very long time!)

First of all, this book did not upset me as much as I thought it would. One would expect that, after being REALLY, REALLY mad with Sirius’s death in Book 5, Dumbledore’s death and Snape’s treason would have affected me just as much, if not more. I had been having notions that all these three would happen /me mumbles something indefinite about careless spoiler-givers - and yet the two major incidents in Book 6 didn’t evoke the anger one (not THE major) incident from Book 5 evoked. But maybe it’s just that Sirius was my favourite character.

I enjoyed the book immensely. However, while reading the others had made my heart thump with agony, this one gave me more quiet emotions – agony too, but mostly a very, very strong feeling of curiosity and impatience about what happens next, maybe stronger than with every other book I’ve read. I still don’t know how I managed to go to bed last night, knowing I had only read two thirds of it.

Also, funnily enough, this is the first time a book (or movie, or anything of that nature) gives me RL fear. (And please bear in mind that I used to read Rosemary’s Baby in the middle of the night, after making sure everyone was asleep.) I went to bed at three, after having finished Chapter 20, had a nightmare that woke me up at five, remembered I had no sheet to cover me and left my bed in search of one... My room was dark (I didn’t want to turn the light on and risk waking anyone up) and I didn’t dare open my closet... Then I thought, “It’s just a book, wizards and Voldemort don’t really exist, I’m not in any danger,” but yet didn’t manage to open the closet... First time it happens to me.

So the book did affect me (although in a more mature way), which is what I seek in a good book. So I feel I should congratulate JKR for her talent and thank her for writing such an awesome book. I’m very glad I had the pleasure to read it I hope the series won’t end with Book 7, it would be such a shame... Book 6 already felt too short…

And now, that we have established that I liked the book I’ll move on to commenting particular persons (and pairings):

Dumbledore: I was glad to see him share memories with Harry... he made him feel stronger and more competent, exactly what he needs to fight Voldemort. And about his death... all I can say is, I’ll miss him. I can’t seem to find words to say anything else about it right now.

Snape: I admit that, despite always having my doubts about him, I didn’t think he’d turn so blatantly to the Dark Side. I expected that he’d continue to act behind this veil of mystery, where he made the Unbreakable Vow and I couldn’t make up my mind about whether he meant it or he was just keeping up pretenses. Even up in the Astronomy Tower, I didn’t think he’d actually proceed with killing Dumbledore. I had guessed he was a very powerful wizard and predicted he’d become Defence teacher in this book. But I hoped he would end up with the good guys – I somehow liked him.

Draco: I had not really thought it would happen, but I always believed it would make things very very interesting if he turned to the good side. Of course, he didn’t, but I was happy to see him in doubt about what he must do, reluctant to kill Dumbledore... I liked that Harry kinda pitied him in the end. Although, to be honest, when Myrtle first said about the boy who visited her, I thought it was Malfoy pretending to fish some information from her – didn’t really think he was sincerely desperate.

The Half-Blood Prince: First guess was Voldemort. Second, was Albus Dumbledore. The thought of James Potter came and went rather quickly, before even Harry considered it. Then, confusion came. At some point Snape was added in the mixture, then taken out. Hermione’s suggestion seemed ludicrous. By the time of the revelation, I was almost convinced that it had been Voldemort and was considering the fact that the book might have been a Horcrux.

R.A.B.: One person that might fit here is Sirius’s brother, Regulus Black. He’s dead - Voldemort killed him, or had him killed – and he could have a middle name starting with an A. It also occurs to me that maybe it’s someone who didn’t die, after all, someone we don’t know and we’ll meet in Book 7. Probably male. But I’m so full of thoughts I can’t decide which one I consider most likely.

Harry & Ginny: Shocking! JKR had been very subtle with romance in the previous books, I found it peculiar how Harry had such strong feelings with the first time he saw Ginny and Dean kissing – I would have expected it to be a gradual, slow-moving process. Although it did make for some funny lines:

It wasn’t bad, but, to be honest, I don’t think anyone of the characters we know is *the one* for Harry. But well, who knows… if he goes hunting for the Horcruxes next year, he might meet another girl who will suit him better… me, for example… just kidding. But I really can’t see him marry anyone of the characters already presented. (God, I was so glad the story with Cho was over!) Now, if he lives to get married, that’s a whole other topic.

Ron & Hermione: Argh! It’s been building for books, and they still haven’t hooked up! I so liked a couple of scenes, like the one in the greenhouses, chapter 14. I bet my head they’ll end up together. If they survive, that is, because with JKR you never know… /me mumbles something indefinite involving her favourite, very dead, character, and Harry ‘I have no one to protect me’ Potter.

Tonks & Lupin: Awww! I was of Harry’s mind, I thought Tonks had fallen for Sirius. But it was nice to see them end up together. Lupin has been alone for a very long time (of his three best friends, one died, one was imprisoned and then died, and one faked his own death and then turned to the Dark Side. Poor guy had no one left.) and the age difference doesn’t bother me – Tonks really loves him, and it seems like he has honest feelings for her, too.

Bill & Fleur: I basically want to comment on the ending – very, very good! I never disliked Fleur, but I was glad to see that her head has deflated a bit, because she was very annoying at times. And she genuinely loves Bill, yay, good for him! I’d like to have seen a bit more of Bill’s feelings for her, though.

Harry: Last, but not least – actually, most of all. Again, the Ginny story was a little peculiar – a little forced, I wonder? But the rest was the Harry we know and love, a little insecure, Gryffindorily brave, with a rare intelligence – the kind of intelligence a hero needs. I loved the trick he played on Ron with the Felix, and I went ROFL in the scenes with the house-elves. (Although that was not just because of Harry, to be fair.) So he wouldn’t want to return to Hogwarts? I can only imagine how he’s feeling. And, I’ll miss Hogwarts, but Harry in action would be very fascinating. I hope he kills Voldemort and he makes Bellatrix Lestrange and Snape suffer (although I wouldn’t mind if he killed them, too). But I also hope that he won’t change – going through what he’s been is tough and further suffering might darken his soul beyond repair. (What do you mean, “he’s just a book character”?)

That’s all for now… Off to read everyone’s comments and I might be back with more.

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

I have no theories of my own to contribute (didn't get around to thinking about what might happen next... too busy sulking about having to wait two years for Book 7 ). But the more I read the theory about Snape killing Dumbledore under Dumbledore's orders, with all the points Lynn, Roger, Paul and others have contributed, the more logical it sounds. As many of you have said, Snape's 'regret' for the Potters' death is too flimsy a reason for Dumbledore to trust him. To be honest, I didn't realize it was supposed to be *the* reason until Harry told the others in the hospital wing. There's gotta be something else. And... a non-mysterious-Snape, clearly on the Dark Side? Nah... sounds almost of character. (Although if he really proves to be evil, I want him *tortured*.)

I just remembered... reading Chapter 2, where Snape explains Bellatrix why she should trust him, I had spotted a hole he didn't cover and Bellatrix didn't notice... although I can't remember what it was. I might check it later.

ROTFLOL! You're right, Rivka!

Lynn, I only started reading Harry Potter fanfic a month ago and can't give you many recommendations. But, if you're interested in comedy, I think you shouldn't miss Albus Dumbledore\'s Inbox .

This thought occured to me, too. /me hopes it will occur to JKR, too.

Amen to that, Roger! I always thought that she was going to do something about it in Book 6 and was very disappointed to see no mention of it at all. I had almost stopped hoping... thought it was just the Sirius fan in me... but comments like those keep my hope alive!

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

There is one major hole in the theory that Dumbledore and Snape had pre-arranged Snape's killing of Dumbledore. Surely Dumbledore would know what affect that situation would have on Harry? Surely he would know that as much as Harry already despises Snape, he'd be out for some serious revenge after he saw Snape kill Dumbledore?

So now Harry is running loose looking not only for Voldemort but for Snape as well. Wouldn't Dumbledore want not only for Harry to focus *all* of his energy on finding Voldemort but also to spare Snape the possibility of being killed by a revenge-spewing Harry?

Perhaps Dumbleore has left behind a letter or something to let Harry know that Snape is not really the bad guy so Harry won't go after him.

Lynn

Okay... finished a bit ago and dove straight into this thread. I've kinda pieced together my reply as I was reading the thread so forgive anything incoherent or repeated.

I kind of felt cheated by this book... while a great deal did happen, not much did. Someone earlier said that this all just seemed like a set up for book seven, JKR moving her chess pieces into place. Harry learned a great deal, but he didn't *do* anything. Though I guess seeing Voldemort might get tiring if we see it every time... it's just... I felt like I read this only to get background information and to watch Dumbledore's death, at which I didn't even cry because I was expecting it not to be real somehow.

I have to agree with Karen on the fanfic quality... that going hand in hand with Chris's thoughts about the Ginny/Harry relationship being contrived. As with his relationship/feelings for Cho, I thought it was pretty much out of the blue. Sure, it's normal (I’m guessing) for a teenage boy to have a few different crushes and what not... but when someone with such a tortured life as Harry has little bursts of moments being a teenager (aside from his appalling stubbornness in OotP ), it's jarring for me. Which is why it started reading a bit like fanfic. Dark, tortured hero finds true love and sets out on his quest to defeat the bad guy. I'm sorry... doesn't *quite* work for me with Harry Potter. Didn't hate it, though. I haven't read any HP fic (other than bits of DD's Inbox and Nekkid Quidditch), so I thought Karen had meant fanfic in general as opposed to HP fic, as many people thought.

As for Snape... I still, like others, want to believe that Snape is a good guy at heart. I think it's Dumbledore's insistence that's tripping me up on believing, after everything that's happened, that Snape isn't evil after all. Can't remember who said it, but I like the idea that Dumbledore was pleading for Snape to kill him... hard to believe... but makes a bit of sense in a way. I don't think we've found out the reason for Dumbledore's staunch belief in Snape. My only theory... They made an unbreakable vow. (And I now read someone else thought of that one, too )

I really like this prediction, Lynn (and Emily, too). Let's hope it's true. Then of course there's Paul's *excellent* point about what Dumbledore told Draco. Very interesting. And JKR does like to plant clues...

Everyone's speculations (thanks for that link, Joy!) answered most of my questions, but the one thing still burning in my mind: Why on earth did this book start with the Ministry alliance between wizards and muggles? There has to be a reason.

Chris said, and Roger commented:

Roger has a good point, and what he said made me realize something. Yes, Harry may not be able to defeat Voldemort on his own, but that's why his friends have vowed to stand by and fight with him. Together, they are stronger than alone... Oy... and I say that after my complaint about this being fanfic-y. :rolleyes:

Another thing that irked me was Harry's final stand against Snape. Maybe this has something to do with what someone pointed out earlier - that Harry doesn't deal too well with panic. But why didn't he try the spells non-verbally? Surely that would have worked.

I thought this was explained quite well in OotP, right? I'd have to back and check, but I'm pretty sure Snape or Dumbledore told Harry all this when he asked the same questions.

And I think that does it for my disjointed ramblings.

Sara (who would like to note that she *did* like the book... just felt cheated is all *sigh*)

EDIT: I forgot to mention one thought I had on the Ginny/Harry relationship... While it was unexpected, I didn't mind it so much. In fact, I rather like it considering he's always wanted a family and he's had those stirrings of love and affection for Mrs. Weasley and the rest of the clan. Wouldn't it just be fitting for him to actually become part of the family?

Don't you still have to wave your wand and stuff? There are nonverbal/somatic requirements to spells, otherwise wouldn't they fire off anytime anyone spoke of them? Anyway, he was quite frozen, so I don't find it unbelievable that he couldn't do anything. Though, I would have believed it more if maybe he had at least tried to think a spell at someone.

Aria explained very well why he didn't try it up in the Astronomy Tower. But it seems to me that you are wondering about the scene outside Hagrid's hut, where he's trying to attack Snape. If that's the case, I'd like to point out something to you.

From Book 6, Chapter 28:
So Harry DID try a nonverbal spell, but Snape repelled it.

From Book 6, Chapter 2, Snape talking:
See ya,
AnnaBtG.

Thanks, Anna!! Guess I was reading too quickly as the scene was suspenseful. So thanks for pointing that out.

Sara

/me lets out one big Ohhhhhhhhhhh. I'll buy that explanation for now.

I musta charged right over that. <g>

Thanks, Anna!

JD

You're welcome, girls

See ya,
AnnaBtG. (who just began re-reading Book 6. Okay, so I'm addicted. Sue me )

I'm such a nerd; I've hardly been on these boards and I'm just drawn right to the Harry Potter. :rolleyes:

Here are my thoughts in no particular order. Feel free to disagree or ignore.

Snape: Not evil. Sorry, I'm not convinced. I don't see Dumbledore as the type to beg for his life; I do see him as the type to beg for Snape to follow through with a prearranged plan. Snape had to kill Dumbledore or else die, and while I'm sure Snape (well, Good!Snape) would happily die for Dumbledore, D didn't want it that way.

Dumbledore's death: Very upsetting, but not unexpected, I thought. Harry just doesn't have a lot of luck with father figures, has he?

I also felt Dumbledore's death was something of a symbol for the end of Harry's youth. While Dumbledore was alive, Harry was still a child and he was still a student. Then . . .

Ginny/Harry: No. No no no, no. I don't think I'd have minded it were it not so RANDOM. Harry goes through the first five books being more or less indifferent to Ginny, in the way any teenaged boy is indifferent to his friend's younger sibling. There's an affection, but no more than the one Harry feels for the rest of the Weasleys. And then all of a sudden Harry's all "Angreh beast! In mah belleh!" just out of NOWHERE.

Even so, it could have been redeemed, but JKR insisted on not letting us see them alone. They had long conversations by the lake, okay, but why don't we get to hear them? It's the "show, don't tell" principle, I guess.

Ron/Hermione: I don't mind. I've always seen more on the Ron/Hermy front than the H/Hr front. They're stuck, as Harry's friends, being in the background; they might as well be together.

Won Won/Lavender: The funny thing about this is that you see relationships like this in high school. At least, I do. Hah.

Tonks/Lupin: Oh, that Tonks. Who doesn't love her? Isn't she cool with that amazing power? Isn't she funny? Isn't it adorable how she's all clumsy? Aren't those cute "the Weird Sisters" shirts completely stylish? Weren't you worried when she was upset? Isn't it sweet how she loved Remus in spite of everything? Isn't that wonderful that they're dating now? Surely they'll live happily ever after!

I'm afraid I see Tonks as something of a Mary Sue. A lot of people disagree, and that's fine. She was a little more tolerable in this book, perhaps because she wasn't EVERYWHERE, but . . . I don't know. Reading her feels like reading an OFC in a fanfic. I'll shut up on that now.

Draco Malfoy: I'll admit, I've long since been a Draco fan. I'll spare you the essay (I seriously almost wrote one) but let's just say: "Way in over his head. The poor dear."

Fenrir Greyback: Huh? Metaphor for paedophilia what?

I'll stop now. Thanks for reading. Or not reading. Or whatever.

--Tessa, who doth babble.

Oh, oh, oh! While going on with my re-reading, I found the hole I had spotted in Chapter 2!! I had spotted it the first time around, it had convinced me that Snape is on the good side, and then, reading on, I forgot all about it. (I'll blame it to JKR's talent of twisting everything and making you doubt even who you are.)

I don't think I've seen it mentioned here, so I'll go on with it:

From Book 6, Chapter 2, Snape and Bellatrix discussing about the fight in the Ministry from Book 5:
She does not insist on how come the six teenagers were joined by half of the Order... which means she cannot imagine what we know:

From Book 5, Chapter 37, Dumbledore speaking:
Does Voldemort, or any Death Eater know about this? I don't think so, for two reasons:

a)Had Voldemort found out, I don't think Snape could have come up with a plausible explanation. "I alerted the Order in case Potter spoke to Dumbledore about what he told me"? No, no, no. He could have simply claimed he didn't know who Padfoot was - how could he? They weren't friends or something. Dumbledore, on the other hand... is not suspecting, or assuming. He *knows*.

b) Assume Snape *has* an explanation about all this. Wouldn't he give both the facts and the explanation to Bellatrix? Okay, so he has Voldemort's trust and everything, but he seems so willing to explain his motives to her (probably wanting to finish this once and for all), so why leave this aside? I don't think he could resist seeing the humiliated look in her face

So, the way I see it, when it came down to choosing who to help - Harry or the Death Eaters - he chose Harry.

Feel free to share your opinions on my theory (if you care enough to read it, that is).

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

EDITED TO ADD:

From Book 6, Chapter 2, Snape speaking:
Very conveniently forgetting how this injury was related to destroying one of Voldemort's Horcruxes and how you helped Dumbledore escape death, aren't you, Snapey? I wonder if you at least mentioned it to your Master... (My guess is a big, fat NO.)

Why would Bellatrix be suspicious? There was ample opportunity for one of the six kids to contact the Order of the Phoenix. Snape did not have to be involved with how the Order knew to go to the Ministry. And if asked, Snape could easily say that he didn't know. Maybe the kids contacted Dumbledore?

For some reason, I cannot remember Dumbledore ever saying exactly what happened when he got his hand ruined. We knew it was going after the cracked ring. But I don't recall any details. Did I just miss it?

My point exactly, Roger. Snape kept the information hidden from the Death Eaters; he did not reveal it, twisting it so that it seemed that he was working for them; because he was NOT working for them, he was helping the Order.

True, there are no details. But there is something.

From Book 6, Chapter 23, Dumbledore talking to Harry:
If Snape had wanted Dumbledore dead all along, why proceed with 'timely action' that kept him alive?

Just MHO, of course.

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

Funny. He didn't live to tell the tale. He had ample opportunity but never wanted to. Guess he was too slow to recognize a curse and the ring destroyed his hand and almost killed him. My guess is that Snape made him a potion that cured him.

I was thinking along the lines of a countercurse, but your guess somehow makes more sense.
Mind if I use it in a fic I'm working on?

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

You write HP fic? Good for you.

Go for it if you want to use that idea.

Well, I recently started writing one... I don't know how it's going to turn out, but I thought I'd give it a shot.

Thanks anyway!

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

I've got a new theory about Snape. Well, at least new to me since I don't read HP websites.

I'm figuring that Snape was in love with Lily because of the way she stood up for him against James and company, and that's why Dumbledore felt that Snape's regret was genuine. As Dumbledore says, love is the most powerful of magics that even Voldemort cannot withstand or comprehend. And that also somewhat explains Snape's behavior towards Harry.

While Snape was probably in love with Lily, he despised James. The dislike of James shows with his total disrespect and near antipathy towards Harry. But, because of Lily, he actually does quite a bit to protect Harry. He was the one who notified the OotP when the kids went to the Ministry. He protected Harry from Dolores Umbridge whenever he could. And he stopped the Death Eaters from killing Harry. I seriously doubt Voldemort would have cried any tears if a Death Eater brought Harry's lifeless body before him or even took him captive.

I think JKR is trying to say that love is the most powerful thing through how Lily's sacrifice protected him against Voldemort as long as he was living with blood relatives. And Voldemort could not maintain his possession of Harry because of love. Why not have Snape's love of Lily to be what eventually redeems him or perhaps has him sacrifice himself for Harry (my prediction for book 7)?

This thought occurred to me, too - it would be the only thing that would give Snape's regret enough credit to stand alone as the reason why Dumbledore trusts him. (Although I'm willing to bet there are some HP fans out there that would think it more likely for Snape to have fallen for James

See ya,
AnnaBtG. (who loves all the speculation, but still hopes that JKR will manage to surprise her in Book 7)

Ooh, nice theory, Roger.

The only theory I'd come up with is that Snape made an Unbreakable Vow with Dumbledore. JKR *does* like to introduce things for them to come up later... So who knows.

Oh, me too! It was great for me to have read HBP without any spoilers - I hadn't even known that someone was going to die. :p So I'm really hoping to be surprised.

Sara

As I've already said, I'm writing a HP fic. So, I was looking for another reason why Dumbledore would trust Snape so blindly (I don't have the writing skill to write about a Snape in love with Lily). And I think I came up with something.

As we know, James once saved Snape's life. What if Snape felt remorse because he practically signed the death warrant of the man who saved his life?
We saw (in Book 3, IIRC) that Snape does not consider James's action an act of bravery, but rather one of cowardice, and got angry when Harry mentioned it. So it is probable that Dumbledore, who knows about the fact, understood Snape's remorse was genuine, but doesn't reveal it as the reason Snape switched sides because he knows Snape doesn't like to think about it. After all, Dumbledore tells Harry that his father saved Snape's life in Book 1, as the reason why Snape has been trying to protect him all along. Maybe Snape is trying to make up for failing to save James's life.

Makes any sense?

BTW... Sara, that comment of yours is what inspired my new signature

See ya,
AnnaBtG.