Some More Interesting Differences - Lois & Clark Fanfic Message Boards

This is 100% meant to demonstrate my interest - no intention to start a right versus wrong debate.

I've been re-reading my Harry Potter books in preparation of this Friday's release of Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince (/me does a little happy dance) and I've noticed some more differences between UK and US English.

Specifically, I've noticed that US English tends to assign the definite article "the" to specific references of time whereas UK English does not. So you'd see:

UK way: Clark knew in future he would make sure no one could see him before he spun into the suit.

US way: Clark knew in the future he would make sure no one could see him before he spun into the suit.

AND

UK way: Lois awoke next morning wondering if she had dreamed that Clark had shown up at her apartment with a red cape sticking out of the back of his jacket.

US way: Lois awoke the next morning wondering if she had dreamed that Clark had shown up at her apartment with a red cape sticking out of the back of his jacket.

Another thing I've noticed is the UK teasing form of "ickle". As in:

Lois sneered at Clark. "What, is the ickle farm boy afraid of the big bad taxi cab?"

I'd always thought ickle was a different spelling/pronunciation of 'ittle which would be baby-talk for little but apparently it's not. So, UK folks, what does ickle mean?

There were some other things I noticed but of course are eluding me now. I'll come back with more when I remember them.

Lynn

Ooh! Glad you brought this up, Lynn.

I was out of reading for my trek back across the Atlantic, having finished the stories I had printed and Harry Potter 4, so I splurged on a book before I left. (Books in English are expensive!!!! 12 Euro for a little paperback

) I ended up getting a fluff book (chick lit

) by an Irish author. One thing has been niggling at me, but not really because I don't understand it. It's just different.

Irish version: Will I take down your name and phone number?

American version: Can I take down your name and phone number?

Irish version: Will I start the coffee now for us?

American version: Shall I start the coffee now for us?

I guess I'm only curious to know if this is solely an Irish thing, or is it a UK thing, too? (Yeah, I know *part* of Ireland is part of the UK, but this author is from Dublin.

)

I'm also wondering what "ickle" means.

Sara (who had to actually stop and think whether "got" or "gotten" was correct while writing last night :rolleyes: )

Well, the first thing in response to Sara is that Irish people don't really use 'will' grammatically.

We use it when we should use 'shall'. We use it when a completely different verb would be more appropriate. But that's just being Irish.

We have a lot of other verbal idiosyncracies too - just read Racing the Moon some time!

But that's just vernacular, as opposed to standard English. Just as 'anyways' is a regional colloqualism in American English: people know it's ungrammatical, but they say it anyway. There are all sorts of regional variations on English, throughout England, Ireland, Scotland etc, all of which would instantly peg you as a native of a certain country or region.

If I were to say 'I'm just after having my dinner', at least four million people would immediately know that I'm Irish.

As for 'ickle', I always thought it was a 'baby-talk' version of 'little'.

And with the use of definite article or not, Lynn, there are lots more:

UK: She's in hospital/I took him to hospital/We're visiting them in hospital.

US: She's in the hospital/I took him to the hospital/We're visiting them in the hospital.

And Sara picked out another tiny difference when she was reading something I'm writing exclusively in UK English (ie not adapting my writing for Lois and Clark) - stopped at traffic lights, not stopped at a traffic light. I think she probably noticed a lot more than that (notes v bills, for example

) but that one springs to mind.

Sure, I'm just practiced in three different versions of English, amn't I?

Wendy

Good to know, Wendy, thanks!

As for the "I'm just after having my dinner", I wasn't sure *exactly* what it meant. I thought it could either mean that she's just finished, or that she's looking to *get* dinner. Wendy informed me that it means she's just eaten dinner. Go figure. <g>

And while we're discussing differences (if Lynn doesn't mind me butting in on her thread a bit

), anyone else have unique expressions like the example Wendy gave?

Sara

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I'd always thought ickle was a different spelling/pronunciation of 'ittle which would be baby-talk for little but apparently it's not.

Well, it always has been for this UKer. Who says it isn't? JK?

LabRat

In Harry Potter and The Order Of The Phoenix (which is the only one I have in English), we are informed that Petunia calls her 15-year-old son Dudley, "Ickle Diddykins". (Yep, she thinks he's the best and cutest boy in the world.)

Interesting thread! (Although it's hard to keep up with all these differences...)

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

I can see Petunia doing that, and not being mean about it. After all, I still call my 3 year old 20 pound cat my cute widdle kitten. *shrug* But when Fred and George said "ickle Ronnikins".. yeah, that's being mean about it.

Oh, sorry. I think I mis-spoke. Actually, no one said ickle wasn't just a form of 'ittle. I just thought perhaps it meant something different. Apparently my first assumption was correct.

This morning I remembered another thing. I don't know what this is called, but I've noticed that UK English adds the word done when US English leaves it off. Best way I can explain is by example:

UK way:

"Clark," Lois said, "you should have spoken to me before you submitted our story to Perry."

"I would have done," he replied, "but you were busy macking Dan Scardino in the broom closet."

Immediately Clark wished he hadn't made that remark about Lois and Dan, because now she looked angry. He wouldn't have done, but after the grief she'd given him about Mason, he figured he owed her a few.

US way

"Clark," Lois said, "you should have spoken to me before you submitted our story to Perry."

"I would have," he replied, "but you were busy macking Dan Scardino in the broom closet."

Clark wished he hadn't made that remark about Lois and Dan, because now she looked angry. He wouldn't have, but after the grief she'd given him about Mason, he figured he owed her a few.

Funny thing the other night. Ken and I were watching the movie Timeline which features Scottish actor Gerard Butler. He said something, and Ken actually asked me where I thought he was from. The guy's Scottish brogue was so thick you could cut it with a butter knife, and I couldn't believe Ken couldn't figure out he was from Scotland. Ken told me he often has trouble discerning an Irish accent from a Scottish one from and English one. Completely baffles me!! They almost sound like different languages to my ear.

Lynn

I've really wanted to get hold (see, Wendy? you trained me out of "get ahold") of the British version of the Harry Potter books. I've generally found it fun to read books in British or Canadian English--the little differences make you feel like you're in a different country (albeit one that speaks the same language), and it's sort of disappointing that they changed the books for us Americans.

Most of the regional idiosyncrasies I know are of pronunciation, not word choice. But what about pocketbook? Around there, that means purse, like what a woman carries her keys, money, Kleenex, lockpicking supplies, etc., in. But I remember from chatting on the channel that other people consider pocketbook to be a wallet, a billfold, or a changepurse, something of that sort.

You know how you hear something you say all the time and it suddenly sounds very odd indeed? Had that moment yesterday, on the phone with Stuart. He'd been at a meeting and had said he'd call me to let me know when he was coming home. So practically the first thing I said to him was, "Is that you?"

Now, I wasn't asking him who he was. I was saying, "Is that you done with your meeting?" Around here, such questions are usually shortened to "Is that you?", leaving off the "done/finished'.

Now that my attention's been drawn to it, I'm curious to know if this is a UK-wide habit, let alone something you use in the US. Or just another regional UK variation.

LabRat

No, it's just you. *grin*

See now, Labrat, I would have phrased that "Are you finished?" or "Are you done?"

Lynn

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they changed the books for us Americans.

Is there really that much that could be changed? Enough to justify a whole new version of the book?

See ya,
AnnaBtG. (who would never have thought there was a US version of Harry Potter, or any other UK book)

And then there's Minnesota English, where pop = soda and yes = ya sure, you betcha.

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Irish version: Will I take down your name and phone number?

In MN, most people would use "can" or "may." You don't really hear people use "shall" very often, but I do see it in print a lot.

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But I remember from chatting on the channel that other people consider pocketbook to be a wallet, a billfold, or a changepurse, something of that sort.

I would assume a pocketbook to be a wallet/billfold.

I wonder if I started reading Harry Potter 5 tonight, would I get done with it tomorrow night? It would at least keep me up 'til midnight.

This is interesting:

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Now that my attention's been drawn to it, I'm curious to know if this is a UK-wide habit, let alone something you use in the US. Or just another regional UK variation.

We would never say a simple "Is it you." because the done wouldn't be understood. Like the others said, it would be "So are you done yet?" or else "When you're done, stop by and get a quart of milk." The "stopping by" is understood to be the local grocery store.
I've mentioned before that I subscribe to Majesty magazine and that many US citizens have a particular fascination with royalty. One thing I notice constantly is the use of the word "scheme."
Such as in "the Prince's Scheme for Childhood Abuse." What this means is the Prince has a charity that raises and donates money to institutions that prevent and treat child abuse. In American English, "scheme" has a negative connotation. Criminals scheme, usually not to the victims benefit. So it sounds really odd to an American ear. What the phrase really sounds like is that the prince is planning to abuse children. Which obviously isn't true, or at least they wouldn't print it!

Artemis

People scheme in a bad way here to. But sometimes it can be good.

I wouldn't really be sure what a pocketbook was, and I'd probably guess at it being a little notebook. I'd be wrong

Please don't get me started on them re-writing the Harry Potter books.

I grew up reading/watching/listening to lots of American English and Australian English. It didn't do me any harm, just made me more aware of different cultures and societies.

So I know what SATs are, and Proms and jocks and cooties...

Helga

Nah, Rat, 'Is that you?' is pure Scots, and possibly pure Glaswegian...

And, Roo, a scheme is simply a plan. The first definition on dictionary.com is A systematic plan of action: “Did you ever carry out your scheme of writing a series of sonnets embodying all the great epochs of art?”

As for 'pocketbook', isn't that a book which fits into your pocket?

Wendy

LOL, interesting topic!!! I've always had British English at school and for a long time I wrote behavior as behaviour or color as colour but when I started chatting online with Americans my English started changing too

I wonder if sometimes I don't mix both in the same sentence though

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As for 'pocketbook', isn't that a book which fits into your pocket?

Lol, Wendy I'd have guessed the same thing because here we have a word in Portuguese that means exactly that "livro de bolso" = pocket book, except that'd be two seperated words

BTW, how do you spell Portuguese? I noticed some Americans spelling it like Portugese. Is the "u" there a British thing too?

You all don't know how hard it is to have your teacher playing CDs with different accents and asking you to identify what they're saying. Wendy, Irish English sounds like Greek to me sometimes

Raquel (who loves FoLCDom because she can learn so many things everyday

)

*thud!* They change the English in Harry Potter to suit the American market? You're kidding!

Honestly, if I were American, I think I'd be pretty indignant that the marketeers didn't think I'd be able to cope with a slightly different version of English. I'm sure nobody here would have a problem understanding it!

Yvonne
(hoping never to see a UK English version of John Steinbeck, Raymond Chandler, Jack Kerouac, etc

)

Coming back to address Lynn's original theme. Yes, the differences between different forms of English are fascinating, and the even more fascinating question is why? How come, in the contexts you note, did we in the UK drop 'the' while you over in the US retained it? How come the US retained 'gotten' while we ditched it? And so on. Was there a conscious decision somewhere along the line to be different, either by the Brits or the Americans? Or was it due to a particular linguistic dogma espoused on one or other sides of the Atlantic? Or was it just a natural evolution from the mix of peoples in both lands?

Anyone got any answers?

Yvonne

Bill Bryson's book 'Mother Tongue' is a really easy to read discussion about English, and it covers things like the difference between US English and UK English.

Off the top of my head, because I don't have a copy near me right now. I think he decides that the differences are just due to the natural evolution of languages. When English speakers moved to different parts of the world their use of the language evolved seperately, so we have ended up with all the different types of English we have now.

I guess some people would argue that the opposite is happening today, with the increase in global communication. I definately have to think about whether I should spell it grey or gray.

What this means, to all you people who are learning English, is that there is no 'correct' version of English. So you learn what's best for your situation

Sorry, this is another of my hobby horses

. I used to teach English in a school in Poland. I was mainly employed because I was British, as all the other teachers were from the US or Canada, because the Principal wanted the students to learn British English. The main employer in the town was a factory that was a subsiduary of a US company, so my students had to unlearn some of what they had learnt in order to communicate with their bosses. It never made sense to me

Sorry, rant over

Helga

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I've always had British English at school and for a long time I wrote behavior as behaviour or color as colour but when I started chatting online with Americans my English started changing too I wonder if sometimes I don't mix both in the same sentence though

Here in Canada we also write those words and many more (center = centre) differently. I'm sure I also mix in both at times.

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Yes, the differences between different forms of English are fascinating, and the even more fascinating question is why?

Helga's explanation sounds like the logical thing.

However, I seem to recall that, in a similar discussion a while ago, a FoLC said that the Americans chose to keep their language somehow 'different' from the one used in UK, because they wanted to be separated from them. Or something along these lines. If we're lucky enough, that FoLC might see this thread and repost

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

Oh, I was going to mention that Anna, but thought I'd talked to much. But since you've bought it up.... :p

There is a very strong sense of identity related to language. That's evident anywhere, for instance it's how in the UK, even today with all our mass media, you can travel 20 miles and hear people talking in a completely different dialect.

So yes, I think places that have taken/adopted English as one of their languages have their own variations partly to support their own identity.

There is an argument that American English is similar to Shakespearean English. This stems from the idea that the first settlers to America held onto the language they bought with them, whereas in the UK the language changed. I'm not so sure about that, mostly because I don't think languages can be held static for 400 years.

OK, I'm going now. Can you tell this is one of my favourite subjects <g>

Helga
(Wondering why she's not a linguist)

I know a lot of the accent differences are a combination of both British decision to change "proper" pronunciation taught in schools and American changes and refusal to follow the British changes. That's why you'll note distinctive accents to port towns like Boston or Charleston -- they had difficulty avoiding the British changes because there was an ongoing British presence through the sailors.

I've never heard a discussion of the origins of the usage differences, though.

I remember reading somewhere - long time ago - that the differences in UK/US spelling (color/colour and so on) came about because there were so many immigrants coming to the US that it was felt the easier words were to spell the better as they learned English.

So they removed all the quirks from UK English that made it more difficult and reduced as many words as possible to their simplest form.

No idea if that's true or not. But it seems to make a kind of sense and would explain much.

LabRat

I would guess that the differences in the various forms of English are not intentional (as in, US choosing to be a certain way) but more a result of the different cultures that blend together and add their different bits and pieces. Perhaps like Lab said, it was a matter of simplifying some things to make them easier to say or spell. What does that "u" add to words like colour or flavour and why if they are spelled with the "u" aren't they pronounced like flour? And woudn't theatre be pronounced "the-a-truh" while theater is pronounced "the-a-ter".

Add to things geographical distance and it makes sense that the languages retain differences. I mean, it seems to me that in European nations, the UK English way is taught as the proper form of English. But I'm guessing in Mexico, the US English way is what is taught. I don't know this - I'm just supposing.

Yvonne - the adjustments to the Harry Potter books are very, very minor. And unless you have some familiarity with UK English, you wouldn't even notice the difference. It's not like the entire flavor of the books has changed. Things like "the" have been added in places, but that's really the only thing I noticed flat out.

Lynn

The explanation I heard for US/UK spelling differences (I have no idea where I heard it -- therefore no idea if it's true or just urban myth; but it makes sense) has to do with dictionaries. For a long time, there was no 'standard' spelling -- everybody spelled how they wanted to. I remember reading stuff in classes where one author would change their own spelling!

Then came the dictionary. With 'official' spellings and definitions. Dictionaries were being created in the US and the UK around the same time -- and that's when the US chose a different spelling. Whether it was, as LabRat suggested, to make things simpler for immigrants or, as I had heard, sheer obstinancy and desire to further enforce 'independence,' I have no idea. My gut says sheer obstinancy -- if we truly had been trying to make things simpler for immigrants, there are way too many words we missed!

Bethy

Back again. Sorry

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Add to things geographical distance and it makes sense that the languages retain differences. I mean, it seems to me that in European nations, the UK English way is taught as the proper form of English. But I'm guessing in Mexico, the US English way is what is taught.

Pretty much exactly right. Although as in my example from Poland, it's not always the best way to do it.

It is a bit more complicated, because lots of people learn English for functional reasons, to communicate certain things with other people, who probably have also learnt English solely for that purpose. For instance pilots, who only need to learn a set block of phrases. And actually knowing more than that could even cause problems, for example in an emergency, if a pilot used words and phrases outside of the standard group, the air traffic controller might not understand.

Helga

To add to this topic, I googled "McGuffy's Reader" but the search results weren't that satisfactory. Try it yourself if you wish. To summarize, a McGuffy's Reader was the standard book to teach all Americans how to read from about 1815 on. In that process they also taught what it meant to be an American since everyone but the Indians were immigrants from somewhere <g>. That book is also where the common traditional proverbs in the US come from. For example:

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TRADITIONAL PROVERBS:

A barking dog never bites.
A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush
A fool and his money are soon parted.
A friend in need is a friend indeed.
A new broom sweeps clean.
A nod's as good as a wink to a blind man. (e.g., it doesn't make any
difference what you do -- they don't know!)
A penny saved is a penny earned.
A rolling stone gathers no moss.
A stitch in time saves nine.
A watched pot never boils.
Absence makes the heart grow fonder.
All that glitters is not gold
As you sow, so you shall reap.
Bad news travels quickly.
Beauty is only skin deep.
Better late than never.
better safe than sorry
Birds of a feather flock together.
Chickens will come home to roost.
The cream always rises.
Don't count your chickens before they're hatched.
Don't cry over spilt milk.
Don't judge a book by its cover.
Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.
Don't spit into the wind.
Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
Early to bed and early to rise makes a man healthy, wealthy and wise.
Every cloud has a sliver lining.
God helps those who help themselves.
Half a loaf is better than no bread.
He laughs best that laughs last.
He who hesitates is lost.
He who laughs last laughs best.
Hunger is the best sauce.
If at first you don't succeed, try, try again.
If the shoe fits, wear it.
If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.
Let sleeping dogs lie.
look before you leap
Make hay while the sun shines
Might makes right.
Money makes the mare go.
Necessity is the mother of invention.
Never put off till tomorrow what you can do today.
One man's meat is another man's poison.
One rotten apple spoils the barrel.
One swallow doesn't make a summer.
Opposites attract.
Out of sight, out of mind.
People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
Practice makes perfect.
Rome wasn't built in a day.
Still waters run deep.
the best laid plans of mice and men oft go awry
The best way to a man's heart is through his stomach.
The blacker the berry, the sweeter the juice.
The early bird catches the worm.
The end justifies the means.
The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.
The longest journey begins with a single step.
The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Too many cooks spoil the broth.
Two heads are better than one.
Waste not, want not.
We'll cross that bridge when we come to it.
What goes around, comes around.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander
When in Rome, do as the Romans do.
where there's smoke, there's fire
Whistling girls and crowing hens always come to some bad ends.
Who holds the purse rules the house.
You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink.
You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

The one thing to be said for it was that it was a unifying force for a rapidly changing culture.
I've been following the Tour de France on OLN daily. Two of the broadcasters are American (Bob Roll and Al Trautwig) and two are British (Paul Sherwen and Phil Liggit). One of the teams is called "LIQUIGAS - BIANCHI" after its sponsors.
My tendency would be to call it liquid gas (li-quid as in the money), but the Brits consistently call it "leaky gas". Is that a common name for propane in the UK? Now the American's are calling it leaky too.

Artemis

I'm reading Order of the Phoenix right now (yeah, I'm behind

) and came across something I'd gotten from context, but really had no clue what it meant.

"Are you taking the mickey?"

Now, when I first read this, I thought he meant "mickey" in this sense:

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A Mickey Finn, or a Mickey, is a drink secretly laced with a drug, possibly chloral hydrate, to knock out the person who drinks it. Slipping someone a mickey has become a staple plot device in detective fiction and B-movies.

But I knew that didn't make sense for a 15 year old.

So my next thought was the slang for "Are you crazy?" - "Are you smoking crack?" Though... that still didn't make much sense for an innocent 15 year old wizard.

So I asked in IRC and El told me it was asking someone if they're making fun of you. She also found a website that explains the origins. I'm amused.

Sara

Artemis said:

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My tendency would be to call it liquid gas (li-quid as in the money), but the Brits consistently call it "leaky gas". Is that a common name for propane in the UK?

I'd guess that the Brits are pronouncing it as the company's name is pronounced - I don't follow the Tour de France and I've never heard of the company, but if it's French then Liqui would be pronounced LiKee or something like that.

And, yes, taking the mickey is pulling someone's leg or, in US parlance, jerking their chain. So if you hadn't read HP 6 and I told you that Harry died, I'd be taking the mickey.

Wendy

Thanks, Wendy. I didn't realize there was no "d" in the name until I went to the OLN website and found the team name. It's rather hard to read the team name on a moving jersey.

It is a french team and so they are saying LiKee.

Artemis