Some background.

When this idea hit, I was thinking a three part story starting here. I dismissed the idea more than once, but it just kept coming back. I realised that to do it justice, there had to be a lot of lead-in story, so I wrote the first 13 parts.

One of the main reasons for going ahead and writing the story (other than I couldn't get it out of my head) was because I'm interested in the reactions of others.

What should they do?

What would you do?

Thanks for your thoughts.

Corrina.

Okay, this is tough. I definitely don't want to offend anyone, but here goes.

I stand with my Church's teaching on this. And that is that children are a gift from God, which He chooses to give through the loving joining of man and woman, and which God chooses whether that loving act will be fruitful or not; it is not a right, but a privilege and blessing to have a child.

Perhaps to put it more simply: It is not okay to have science get in the way of and be in place of the personal loving act of the couple, and there are other negative complications usually caused by In Vitro, etc., which I do not want to go into here.

It is of course perfectly okay to adopt, and I would think that if Lois & Clark checked with international agencies, they may still have a chance in that if they want it.

Not sure I explained that very clearly, but I hope it makes some sense. I am glad that they are discussing the ramifications of it all and working through it.
And of course I am definitely biased about what I think they should do as I suppose is obvious from the above. But also how can one suppress natural feelings coming up of who's biological child it is and avoid confusion for themselves and for the child, and avoid affecting Martha with the results she could not give Jonathan?

Besides that and getting to the L&C Wells' version of the future, this also doesn't answer how they will start "Utopia" with their super descendants.

Sorry about the length.
Evelyn

An addition, please don't think I don't know what the pain is of being unable to have children, as I really do.

My husband and I tried for 9 years, had lots of tests and were told not to hold out hope, but like I said, after 9 years of trying and while working on adoption papers, we found out we were pregnant with our first miracle, and almost 3 years later, we had our second miracle.

Still hoping not to have offended anyone for taking a different route,
Evelyn

I'm glad that Lois & Clark are discussing the ramifications of this decision - I am reminded, however, of a Sci-Fi story from many years ago (I think Heinlein but could have been McCaffrey) where a young couple who were space explorers neglected to bank eggs and sperm in the event they returned from their mission sterile. The husband dies but the wife desperately wants a child. The solution given was an egg donation from her mother's banked eggs and sperm from his father's donation.

As someone who had to undergo fertility treatments to get pregnant, I know the agony of wanting a child but not being able to get pregnant easily. That said, I think I agree with Evelyn that forcing the issue would only open a can of worms that cannot be closed. This child would have a blond, blue eyed father and a dark haired mother. If the child picked up the blonde part of the DNA, wouldn't it be setting Lois up to have this child's paternity questioned? That could lead to other stories, but I don't think that HG Wells version of the future would ever happen. It is not too late for them to all of a sudden realize that they succeeded in getting Lois pregnant, just by relaxing at the resort. Or, the very young daughter of a neighbor (Irig?) have a child out of wedlock and it be up for adoption. Take another route, please. Unless you want to keep this story going endlessly with different ending than Utopia.

Pat

What a 'super' chapter! And what an intriguing idea to solve Lois and Clark's fertility issue. I thought you brought out all the possible ramifications of them going through with it quite nicely through LnC's thoughts. It is very much a most generous and thoughtful gift from Jonathan and Martha, and a decision they would not have taken lightly.

In the land of make believe I can see this as a great solution for all the reasons you gave in this chapter, but I can also see that the negatives you pointed out through their thought processes are also bona fide issues.

In real life, if I were Lois, I don't know that I could ever do it... not because of any moral or religious dilemma but more that I would actually know who the child's biological father was (related or not) and I think I would have trouble stopping myself from subconsciously thinking of the child as his and not my husband's, whereas if the donor was anonymous then thinking of the child as 'ours' would be easier because there wouldn't be that tangible connection to another person.

As for any physical likeness to Jonathan that the child could have, that could easily be explained through Clark 'supposedly' being the biological son of Jonathan. I have friends who have a blonde blue-eyed child whereas they themselves are both dark-haired and brown-eyed. Her physical attributes have come from one of her grandparents.

I am still kinda holding out hope that the decision will be taken from them by finding that Lois did in actual fact get pregnant with Clark's child while they were bonding in Anguilla.

Either way, however you write the outcome I am sure you will do it well and I will be happy with how you intend your story to play out.

Keep up the fantastic work.

Cheers
Elizabeth

Great chapter and interesting dilema. Definitely gives you a lot to think about.

I say keep it in the family.

The only folks that have to live with the consequences are Lois, Clark, Martha and Jonathan. As for if the child will have blonde hair and blue eyes, Clark was adopted so, one of his biological parents could have those traits.

Personally I'd say no.

A major reason is that Lois isn't as desperate for a child as Clark seems to be. I can't help thinking that Clark wants a biological child. But inseminating Lois with Jonathan's sperm wouldn't give Calrk a biological child.

If Lois is inseminated with Jonathan's sperm, however, I do think that would make the entire Kent clan somewhat uncomfortable. Could Lois be entirely comfortable with her father-in-law, knowing that she has born his child? Would Clark become jealous of his own father? Would Martha become jealous of Lois?

If you are a Christian, you may think twice about this idea, too. Leviticus 18:15 has this to say about the subject:

Jonathan would not have a sexual relation with Lois, as such. But he would come uncomfortably close to it.

That sort of morality aside, we should remember that Lois is forty years old, and Jonathan may be pushing eighty. The older you are, the greater the risk that the child will not be born healthy. I read somewhere that old fathers stand a greater risk of fathering children with various mental problems.

Finally, I think this whole idea is a way of pampering Clark, who is too easily hurt and depressed for his own good sometimes. Sorry, Clark, you can't have a child with a human woman. Accept it.

Ann

Wow.I can see the headlines now: "Grand son gives birth to own grandfather"

I'm still holding out for a typical LnC fiction miracle and the effect of tropical beaches and sun on Clark's compatibility with Earthbound humans.

Did I mention feeling weird

Looking forward to tomorrow!

Michael

hmmmm.... this is certainly an interesting question and my initial reaction was dominated by the 'ick' factor. It would be very, very weird for Lois to have her father-in-law's child. I also think it would be more difficult for Martha than she may think at the moment. How do Martha and Clark not feel somehow inadequate for not being able to give their partners' children, necessitating this peculiar situation?

On to the purely scientific side...With respect to questions of paternity, genetically speaking, it would be possible for Lois and Clark to have a fair-haired, blue-eyed child, if both of them have recessive traits for those characteristics. Clark probably does, given his mother was fair-haired. With Lois, it's also a possibility - I assume either Sam or Ellen is naturally fair-haired (but it's hard to tell, since Ellen's hair color doesn't look natural to me and we don't know what Sam's natural color was before it turned white). Because dark hair and dark eye color are dominant, it wouldn't be possible for two blond-haired, blue eyed people like Martha and Jonathan to have a black-haired, brown-eyed child like Clark, but then, everyone knows he's adopted, so it's not that big a deal. Also, since Lois and Clark would be having a child so late in their marriage, when Lois is in her late 30s, I imagine some people will wonder (hopefully to themselves) if they needed fertility treatment and possible egg or sperm donor assistance to conceive a child.

What is a bigger concern to me is the ages of the respective biological parents. Lois is already 37 and would be 38 at the time of having her first child. In the U.S. and Canada, that puts her into a high-risk pregnancy category. It's certainly not that uncommon for women in North America to have a first child after 35, but it raises the possibility of serious complications and risks. Lois's socio-economic status and her weight and exercise history cut in her favor. As does the fact that she's only a few years older than the cutoff for what is considered advanced maternal age, but she will still face an increased likelihood of having a child with Down Syndrome, developing pregnancy induced hypertension, gestational diabetes, or pre-term labor.

It would be nice if Mother Nature would catch up with the realities of modern human lives. Many people, especially those who pursue graduate education, don't get married until their early 30s. Certainly, this has been the case in my cohort - many of my friends in their early 30s are engaged or recently married. My friends who are doctors are by and large, still single as they work 80 hours a week and make no money during residency. Most find that their lives lack the stability to allow them to focus on a relationship and make it their priority. Especially given the fact that the first part of a woman's limited reproductively viable years are a period when people generally shouldn't have kids (they should be focusing on their education from say 14 to about 22), it seems ridiculous that women face a deterioration in fertility beginning as early as 35. But then again, Mother Nature doesn't change as quickly as human society does. Thousands of years ago, when our lifespans were 40 or 45 years on average and getting married at 15 was normal, there was no real disconnect between a woman's reproductive life and her family and social expectations.

Jonathan's age, which I would estimate at this point to be at least 70, is perhaps a greater concern. Even though men can father children for pretty much their entire adult lives, the quality of their sperm seriously deteriorates in old age. The risk of autism, brittle bone syndrome, and muscular dystrophy all increase with advanced paternal age. Even genetic disorders for which there is no family history become more prevalent as advanced paternal age leads to autosomal genetic disorders - new problems occur in the DNA as the body is less able to make copies of DNA without creating new errors that lead to new problems.

Rac

Can Clark have his powers taken from him just for an couple of days to see if that might work? before they try that. some how that has to work. This story is keeping me up at night thinking on how to help them and fight the bad guys as well.
Keep it going love the story.

Yeah, when I first read about the Jonathan-child possibility, my reaction was also dominated by the "eew" and "ick" and still actually is. I cannot imagine having the father of my "potential" child being my father-in-law ...

Like you carefully extrapolated in their reactions and thoughts about this possibility, something about that just seems wrong.

Also with Martha coming up with the idea, it seems as if Jonathan is not entirely comfortable with this and maybe was somewhat pressured by Martha to "have" the biological child they wanted- even though they have accepted Clark as their son.

I also hope that the Anguilla bonding may have some other consequences for Lois and Clark - that they later learn that Lois is actually pregnant

Looking forward what you have in store for the last part of this great story

I agree about Jonathan -- had to review the chapter again -- even though he and Marth both say they discussed it fully and understand and want to do this, I don't see Jonathan as at all comfortable with it. He wants to go along with Martha on this because they both are desperate to find something to help their son and his wife have a baby, and of course, Martha can be very persuasive when she makes her mind up about something, and Jonathan loves her and will follow her lead; but that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

I just don't see this working out well for the group ever being as comfortable around each other ever again; awkwardness will be there no matter how they try to avoid it and ignore their feelings. This is just too personal for each one of them in so many ways.

Well, I think it is a workable solution. No, it's not perfect - but nothing is. I don't share the same religious concerns that Evelyn expressed, and I don't agree with Ann that this would come uncomfortably close to Lois having sexual relations with Jonathan. Jonathan would be a sperm donor - for me it would be similar to women who choose to have a baby but rather than go to a sperm bank for an anonymous donor, they choose a close friend. That may not work for some, but it seems to be very possible for many people.

I do acknowledge an initial "ick" factor, but I think that could lessen as everyone gets accustomed to the idea. At first, everyone is going to be a little uncomfortable about it all, and certainly none of them should rush into a decision.

Lois' age now puts her in the high-risk category, as Rac pointed out, but if as someone suggested she could possibly have been so "relaxed" in Anguilla that she could be pregnant at this moment, she'll still be in that same high-risk category. I don't know enough about the medical risks with Jonathan's age, and certainly any additional risk factors added onto Lois' "aged" eggs would complicate matters further. When Jonathan said that he had taken tests and gotten a clean bill of health, were the doctors told why he wanted these tests, and if so were he and Martha told about an increased risk of genetic problems?

Ann sees Clark as more desperate than Lois to have a child. I personally haven't gotten that impression from this story. I think the lack of a child is a big hole in both of their lives - Lois attempted to fill it by burying herself into her new job, Clark got involved with kids in after-school programs. Obviously it's up to them to decide how happy they can be without a child in their lives, but I don't see Lois agreeing to go along with this just in order to give Clark a child. Much as Lois loves Clark, I think she is much too much her own woman to agree to something she was against, deep down, just to make Clark happy.

It's a wonderful story, Corrina. Very thought-provoking - as this and the other response threads have proven - and a delight to read.

Kathy

Thanks to everyone who left FDK.

Rather than give individual replies, I'm going to attempt to address some of the issues raised.

Alternatives

From a story point of view, that would be the easy way out. I don't like stories where the author writes him/herself into a corner and then gets saved from it by a totally unexpected event (deus ex machina, I believe is the term).

So no, Lois will not just happen to fall pregnant, nor will there be another way of providing a baby.

I did consider finishing the story here and letting everyone decide their own ending. However, if I were the reader, I would feel pretty cheated by that.

Jonathan's age Eddie Callan (EDIT - whoops try Eddie Jones :rolleyes: )was born in 1940, (according to wiki,) so if we take his age as Jonathan's age, he would be 64 in this story.

Jonathan Again, from a story point of view, it *had* to be Martha who suggested this. Some have mentioned an 'ick' factor (which was my first response too). Had it been Jonathan's idea, the 'ick' factor would have been significantly greater.

Clearly the thoughts of all four people involved have to be explored, but remember, the story isn't over yet.

Utopia

From the script for Tempus Fugitive

I know many fics assume Utopia was founded by super-powered descendants and on one level, it makes sense that to overcome all the greed and violence, you might need superpowers.

But from this line, I see that Utopia was based on values and principles rather than powers.

Any child brought up by Clark and Lois would be taught those values and principles.

In 'Meet John Doe,' Andrus says

Again, the emphasis is on the love shared by Lois and Clark rather than super-powers.

The child's looks I think others have answered this. For those who know Clark is adopted, his child could carry genes for anything from his unknown parents.

For those who don't know Clark is adopted, if the child looks like Jonathan, how would that be a problem?

Whose child is it anyway? It takes a whole lot more than making a woman pregnant to be a father. True fathers are wonderful, self-sacrificing, loving, reponsible, reliable, steadfast men who put years and years into the raising of their child/ren.

Many, many people raise a child who is not biologically theirs. I really doubt that everytime they look at the child, the foremost thing in their mind is 'that child isn't mine'.

In conclusion, I am going to go with the ending I originally wrote to this fic. I knew when I wrote it that some would disagree, others would agree.

If you feel so strongly about what they should do that if I choose differently to what you want you are likely to get upset, my suggestion is that you make up your own ending and don't read mine.

After all, this is supposed to be fun - thought-provoking maybe, exploring serious themes maybe - but ultimately it is supposed to be fun.


Again, thanks to everyone who responded,

Corrina.

Kathy, your post appeared while I was writing my response and you raised something I had intended to address, but forgot.

Regarding Clark wanting the child more than Lois. I think this says a whole lot about Lois's deep love for Clark. They both know he is the reason they can't have children. For her to continually express her disappointment and her yearning would be incredibly painful for him.

And, it could be argued that it would be kind of cruel of her to keep reminding him of it.

She doesn't. She has a strategy - her job - to avoid doing it. The strategy doesn't work out all that well, but Lois deliberately tries not to emphasise her grief because she knows how much it will hurt Clark.

I was trying to show that they equally want a child, but they dealt with not being able to have one in very different ways.

Corrina.

Okay, I don't have the strength to go through all the parts and find quotes, so I'll quote from memory. Correct me if I'm wrong.

When Lois was thinking about what Clark means to her a few parts ago, she was comparing him with her job. She realized that Clark was infinitely more important to her than her job. The unspoken implication is that she is perfectly willing to give up her job to keep Clark. And indeed, she has already taken steps to make sure that the Daily Planet has a competent editor as she steps down. She has already more or less named her successor, and she has hinted to Perry that the editor-to-be needs a mentor. Perry has already assumed that role.

Lois is perfectly willing to sacrifice her job for Clark. What is Clark willing to sacrifice for Lois in return?

Nothing. He has been telling himself that he is willing to give up his marriage to Lois, for Lois's own sake, of course. But he didn't inform Lois about his plans, because he probably didn't want to risk her telling him that she didn't want a divorce. What if she had told him that she didn't want a divorce? He wouldn't have had a good reason to distance himself from her to make it easier for her to leave him. And what if she had said that she was okay with dissolving their marriage? He might have felt obliged to leave her. And if that happened he would be alone, and it might take a long time for him to find another woman to share his life with.

If Clark had told Lois about his thoughts about a divorce, he might have imperiled his marriage. He might have lost Lois.

Clark didn't want a divorce. He didn't want the messiness that comes with a divorce, and he didn't want the loneliness afterwards. So what did he want?

I think Clark just wanted Lois to be a better wife to him. I think he was unconsciously "blackmailing" Lois in order to force her to devote more of herself to him. He was unhappy with his marriage, or rather, he was unhappy with how Lois treated him, so he wanted her to change. And he is succeeding, as Lois has already started the process of giving up her job for him.

Somebody said in an earlier FDK thread that the reason for Clark distancing himself from Lois was probably that he wanted to give her a guilt-free escape. My interpretation is the exact opposite. I think Clark wanted to make Lois feel guilty, so that she would change her ways, so that Clark wouldn't leave her.

I have said in an earlier post that I find it unreasonable to assume that Clark would be less busy than Lois. I can't help thinking that this fic is being unfair to Lois by implying to us that he is. Clark is juggling two jobs whereas Lois only has one, and in his Superman job Clark has completely unpredictable working hours. For all of that, Clark is able to be a beloved basketball coach for a bunch of kids, on top of his two other jobs. If I remember correctly, Clark was playing a match with the teens every week on a predetermined day and hour. Let's say, for the sake of the argument, that Clark was playing basketball with the kids every Friday at seven p.m. Does that mean that Superman is taking a vacation every Friday at seven p.m.? And if that is not the case, what explanations will Clark give the kids for standing them up every third or fourth Friday? That he had to return a video? That he had to have an emergency haircut? That he had to pick up his Cheese of the Month shipment?

I find it impossible to believe that Lois is busier than Clark when she has only one job and he has three, if you count his commitment to the kids as a (volunteer) job.

And then we have the child business. Oh well.

I'm not questioning that Lois wants a child with Clark. I'm just saying that it is Clark who has been obsessing about a child, over and over again.

Clark has told Martha that he needed to distance himself from Lois, so that she could divorce him, so that she could have a child. In my opinion, Martha should have told Clark much more bluntly than she did that Clark ought to discuss things with Lois rather than provoke her to divorce him. And Martha should have asked Clark if he was really sure that Lois wanted a divorce in order to have a child.

Clark didn't ask Lois about that. And Martha didn't ask Lois about that. To Martha it is enough that Clark is obsessing about a child. So now Martha has taken steps that will make it very awkward for Lois not to have a child with her father-in-law. Martha doesn't know what Lois wants, but she has put her son's wife in a position where the younger woman probably feels obliged to have her husband's child through her husband's father.

Lois has been made to feel that she has to sacrifice something of her own if she wants to keep Clark. So now she has begun to give up her job for Clark's sake, and she probably feels obliged to have her father-in-law's child for Clark's sake. But Clark is giving up nothing for Lois.

Maybe you would be better off having a divorce, Lois.

Sometimes Love Isn\'t Enough by Tank Wilson - and here Clark is the über-busy one.

Ann

Hmmm...
I never have thought that Lois had the younger guy step in with Perry's help because she's going to give up her job. No, what I remember is her thinking/saying that now she could get away for vacations and quality time with Clark without worrying about the Paper functioning without her. Always sounded to me like she's been working pretty much non-stop for a year, not taking any time for herself either, so she needs to plan some breaks with good coverage.

I do agree that before getting more information from Lois, Martha and Jonathan have put Lois in a very uncomfortable position. Even though they said that they would understand and say nothing further, if L&C decided not to do it, that's a hard thing to not weigh on your mind as an obligation to try their suggestion, even when all your red flags have gone up about it! And I think we have red flags come up for good reasons, and not really a good thing to do it just because other people are.

Okay, thanks. I'm done.

When I beta'd this, and got to this chapter, my jaw hit the floor. Kudos to Corrina for such an original idea - I don't think I've read that in any fanfic so far. After a lot of thinking (and my first reaction was "ick" too), I decided the following:

I can't wait to see the FDK thread on this chapter!

And wow, has it panned out!

Ok, according to this new family tree, Utopa would be founded by Lois and her gene pool and Jonathan and his gene pool-no Clark/Superman genes.Poor Clark. He is really, really alone.

wow... that just went in a whole different direction! i agree with others' comments/reactions.... the ick factor, the fact that the child still wouldn't be clark's biological child.

they both seem so suited to be mentors to the teens, I think they would make great foster/ adoptive parents. esp. from clark's POV, having been adopted himself by the kents.

personally, i think it would be very difficult: having considered jonathan as a father figure all these years, to have him as the father of your child...and for the child growing up, as he/she learns about his/her biological origins.

regardless of their decision, I'm loving the fact that I'm being constantly surprised by the twists/turns of your story... with vivienne, then the fire, and now the kents' news... hmm, so there'll be 2 more installments to look fwd to??

When's the next chapter up? After reading all this FDK I'm dying to read the next part.


Elizabeth

Working on it now - possibly half an hour.

Wonderful! Thank you!

Ann, your post has a lot of phrases such as 'the unspoken implication,' 'I think,' and 'in my opinion.'

I wrote the fic, you have interpreted it a certain way. I don't agree with your conclusions, you don't agree with how I wrote the fic.

No problems - it would be a boring world if we all agreed with each other all the time.

SJH - you said That was one of themes of this fic. I think it gets overlooked far too often. It cannot be easy being the only one of your kind - even when it comes with certain advantages.

Thanks for you comments, flowerpot.

Corrina.

I really do not have an easy answer. I guess a big part of me has not figured out exactly why means could not be found to make Clark the biological father. Maybe his sperm will not naturally join with human, but why not artificially.

On the other hand, I guess for the purposes of this story I have to accept that won't work.

I have to go with Evelyn and say adoption is the better option. Especially as pointed out, if they try to pass the child off as their biological child people will have a high probability of thinking Lois was cheating on Clark.

Maybe the local adoption agency hates them, and they could not adopt in New Troy. However even there, there are probably multiple adoption agencies. However International adoptions are always an option. If Lois can avoid getting kidnapped for a year as editor, she can make adoption meetings work. It is all about priorities.

Of course I have to admit I do not worry too much about the issue here. I start with the religious view that a sentient being from another planet would be biologically compatible enough with an earth-human to reproduce, and expect things to work out. I know that is a cop out of the real issues, but it is what I figure the situation would really be.

With the above discussion of fertility cycles, this explains why I have known so many women who went back to school to get advanced degrees after having children. It is really tough even then for other reasons, but it may be the best way to balance getting an advanced degree and having children.

On the other hand I have to admit that I am more conflicted about this than some people. In Tonga there are people who have children to then give them away to their relatives who can't. I guess that is a little different than the issues of articficial insemination an in vitro fertilization, but I do have to say that biological parentage is not the only possibility. "descendants" are not neccesarily biological ones, especially if you hold them out as your biological children. Wells might not have even known the child was not Clark's. People might just assume that the thinks that create Superpowers do not activate with a half-kryptonian child.