Lois & Clark Forums Forums General Discussion Fun with Polls The Clark Quiz

With all of the discussion about characterisation and incarnations of Lois and Clark and whether or not fans of incarnations other than LnC: TNAOS are *real* fans or not, I started to wonder exactly who is qualified to decide if any depiction of Lois and Clark fits the mold or not. Is it a matter of having to view all 88 episodes a certain number of times before you can be called an expert? Is it that you know one of the writers from the show and have an inner knowledge of what the creators had really meant Lois and Clark to be like? Is it that you've read every single fanfic ever written and are therefore an expert?

As far as I know, there is no Bible out there that spells out exactly what the correct answers are when it comes to characterisation of either Lois or Clark. As such, we all come at these two characters with only our memories from their actions on the show, our own personal backgrounds, and our wishes and hopes for what these characters should be when we decide what is and is not in-character. And in order to maintain a polite, friendly community, sometimes we have to agree to disagree and move on.

However, just for fun, I've come up with a Personality Quiz of sorts for both Lois and Clark. (Clark's is here. Lois's is here ). In this poll are twenty questions posed about Clark - what he might do in a given situation, what his preferences are, etc. As far as I know, there are no *right* answers (right being defined as an answer given specifically within the context of the show). These are just thrown out there for your consideration and guess as to what your idea of a correct answer might be.

Some of the questions are easy and low-level. Some are deeper and more controversial. None of the answer options are right or wrong, simply meant to generate thought. And all of the questions are asked assuming that canon is what we were all shown during the four seasons of Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman.

Because there are no *right* and *wrong* answers, I did not include an option for "Other" with each question. This is to narrow down what could be an infinite number of possible answers, so pick your best guess and then feel free to elaborate in a post.

This could be interesting! If we will never know exactly what the right answers are, perhaps this poll will give us a snapshot of what the majority of us fans imagine the right answers would be. At the very least it will demonstrate that the interpretation of what is "in-character" is highly, highly subjective, and no one person has the ability to claim absolute authority. Except Lois and Clark themselves, of course.



Lynn

WOW!! Fascinating poll, Lynn!! Thanks for putting so much time and effort into this. It looks really well thought out and I can't wait to see Lois's Quiz.

Now... I have the urge to address and/or comment on some of the questions, so indulge me.

"If Clark wasn’t a reporter, he'd most prefer to be"

This was one of the tough ones (not the toughest, by far, but still). What is it that drives Clark? Is it the social aspect of helping people (social worker)? Or is it justice (police officer)? Or is it the rescue of people in danger (firefighter)? This has really made me wonder why Clark is in journalism in the first place, and how on Earth did he survive not helping people more than surreptitiously until he became Superman?

"Superman couldn't rescue a bus full of senior citizens. At home he:"

This one was a bit hard as well. I believe that Clark has a habit of internalizing everything, not letting people know when he's upset or hurting. On the show, we got to see Lois's struggles with being a superhero when she was Ultra Woman. She cried to Clark about the stress and agony of not being able to be everywhere at once. We did get to see Clark voice his frustrations early on, when he was first learning how to be Superman, but other than that, we didn't really see this side of him. What *does* he do when he can't be enough. I'd like to say that he goes home and tries to forget about it, but it hardly works... especially if it were an earthquake that killed hundreds or a child that died in front of its parents. I think we were cheated a bit on the show that we never saw Clark cry. I whole-heartedly believe that he can and does cry, and with evidence from countless fics, I'm guessing most of us do.

"If Clark had to give up all of his superpowers but one, which would he keep?"

Interesting to see that most of us (so far) believe that Clark values flying above all else. I think that was evident in his choice of flying when Lois asked the "invisible or fly" question. Though... I do wonder... It's heavily mentioned in fanfic that Clark gets such a feeling of freedom from flying... Are our answers weighted with this? Or is it truly a part of the L&C canon?

"Does Clark believe in God?"

Now this question... I can't help but wonder if people are answering what they would like to be true, or if Clark really does believe in God. He's clearly not a religious person as we never see him go to church or mention anything of organized religion, but of course that doesn't mean that he doesn't believe in God. Interesting question.

"If Clark could only rescue one person of the list below, who would it be?"

This question actually stole my breath for a moment, and was probably the hardest to answer. We know from the series that he'd be torn to choose between friends and hundreds of innocents, Lois and the peace talks... but he always found a way to save everyone. That makes me wonder... *who* would he really choose? The issue was probably far too heavy a topic for the show, and from what I've read, I haven't seen it addressed too much, if at all in fanfic. Perhaps that's a question that no one really knows the answer to. I ended up choosing his child... I think he'd reason that Lois would want it that way. But really, I have no idea... really tough question.

"Which teenage “trouble” would Clark have most likely be caught doing?"

Now this one... I don't really see Clark getting in trouble. Not just because he was such a good kid, but because he hated to draw attention to himself. Some of the options you can clearly dismiss out of hand (I hope ), but a few others - like making out and skipping school - are a little more likely. I chose skipping school, but only with the thought that maybe Clark had discovered one of his powers or was upset by something which caused him to leave for the day.

"Would Clark make love to his wife, Lois, at the DP during business hours?"

*snicker*

Okay, I think I've gone on long enough. Really great poll, Lynn!!

Sara

Wow, that was fun. What a neat idea, Lynn. There were definitely a few times where I wanted to pick more than one answer, or wished I had a different option listed, but it was a fun quiz to take.

As I looked through the results, I saw times where I was in the majority, and times where I was the only (or one of the only) people to choose an option. I can't wait to see how it shapes up after more people have voted.

Neat, neat, neat! Can't wait for the Lois Quiz.

Kathy

Great!!

Tough, too. Gives good food for thought.

Way to go, Lynn! And thanks!

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

Very interesting questions! And yes, it needed quite a bit of thought! There a few questions that could have used more options.. the God question I was thinking "Keeping an open mind".. not a full-blown believer, but not a complete atheist, either. More of an agnostic.

Absolutely fascinating, Lynn! Like Kathy, there were so many times I wanted to choose more than one answer. And other times - such as what he would do if upset after saving people - I wanted to say that it would depend whether this was S1 or S3.

Interesting, too, looking at the results, where lots of people have selected options I'd have said 'no way!' to - which only goes to reiterate what I've said many times: that for the most part characterisation is incredibly subjective. We all know there are things Clark would definitely not do - like keep the money in that wallet or kill someone deliberately - but, at the margins, what would he do? We could all say that Clark doesn't cheat... yet he was going to cheat at poker until Lois made that comment about Superman not cheating. He does lie, if he feels it's justified. He will be snide and even hurtful on occasion. He'll even treat Lois badly once or twice and try to justify it.

Great idea! And I can't wait to see the Lois poll, Lynn.


Wendy

Interesting quiz - and I know from experience how hard it is to set these things.

Some fun questions, and a couple that we actually did see in L & C so we could go with Clark's choice - like the date question - but then what if what he'd planned was what he thought Lois would like and wouldn't be what *he* would like, and then there's the adjective "elegant" which is not the same as "impressive" or "laid-back" and since he wanted to impress Lois ... nope couldn't answer that one afterall. (Pearl Jam concert??)

Now, I know you set this as a forced choice quiz, Lynn, to elict our opinions, and with most of the questions I was quite happy to accept the fact that although maybe he would have done something different, I could chose one of the five as more llikely than the others. (e.g. the job question) and, as Wendy said, for a couple you had to chose S1 or S3 Clark. And for one it was all of the above.

But a few I just couldn't answer - the one about which relationship he would chose with Lois - one of the premises of L & C :TNAoS was that Clark was after neither the one night stand or the 'let's be friends' relationship, so neither answer was appropriate. Why only 2 choices in that question, btw? Also the god question, as has already been pointed out - why only 2 choices there also? And then the Hitler question which is based on a theory of history which ignores multiple causation ( I know, you're nodding off at this point but it is an interesting discussion - does one man shape events or do the events shape the times which in turn produce etc, etc - now I know you're nodding off

Also, wouldn't saving your child be nearly everyone's first choice, regardless of how much you loved the other people in the list?

So i finished the quiz, having left 4 questions unanswered, felt not too happy with some answers, and submitted my response, but... the quiz god would not accept my incomplete paper!

Yet, I am curious about how people are answering - love discussions about characterization.

I'm way over-analzing this, maybe?

c

Great poll, Lynn. I'd thought of doing something similar a month or so ago, so I was delighted to see you'd done this.

Some of the questions were a little hard to answer without knowing the context - were we dealing with a S1 Clark or a S3 Clark, for example. An S1 Clark, IMO, would be more likely to phone his parents than Lois, whereas an S3 Clark would be more likely to phone Lois.

But on the whole, you posed some thought-provoking questions, and I'll be back later when I've got a little more time to discuss things further.

This, though:

I imagine the intention was to avoid the obvious and clear-cut answer in favour of giving us two less obvious answers to choose from: if Clark *couldn't* have exactly what he wanted, what would his choice be?

Yvonne

Very cool poll, Lynn. Brilliant thought, and very interesting results.

I seem to be with the majority on just about every question. Not only that, but in most cases where I was really torn between two answers, I see that the votes are split between those two possibilities.

For example, the morning person question. I think Clark is a morning person, but I voted other because I don't think he's any more alert in the morning than he is in the afternoon or evening. I was also torn between Intelligence and Compassion. Although I ultimately chose Compassion, I was happy to see that my vote evened the split between the two.

I did disagree with the majority on question one, though. Flying around with the wallet seems like the most honest and straightforward choice, but I think that ultimately, it would be futile. There's no telling how far the person who lost it could have gone, in what direction, or if that person even realizes the wallet is missing. Even if the person realizes the wallet is missing, there's no way to tell unless they're doing something to make it obvious (walking or driving around actively scanning the streets, telling someone "I lost my wallet," etc), and the odds are against that happening at the moment Clark is flying overhead. Besides, who knows how many other people have lost wallets? Not to mention that scanning the city would mean peeking into people's private places (Ooo, unintentional alliteration. Cool. ). So, I don't really think it's a logical or practical choice, and I think Clark would realize that.

As for the bus question, that's where I'd really like some more options. To some degree, it depends on where we are in the timeline. Are L&C married? Does Lois even know he's Superman? I think the answer would change a lot depending on whether we were talking about early Season One, post Season Four, or somewhere in between. In any case, I'd probably have chosen "All of the above" if that had been offered.

Similarly, there's more than one kind of ideal date. I don't think Clark would want to have the same type of date over and over. I think he'd enjoy most, if not all, of the options you've listed. Frankly, I think the only real answer to this question would be "With Lois."

The one where I really seem to differ from the rest is Clark's accomplishments. I think there's a subtlety to this question that makes a big difference. I answered that he'd be most proud of teaching someone to read, but if the question had been "Which of these things would Clark most want to do?" I'd have picked something else entirely. I think, for example, that he'd very much want to put Luthor in jail, but that he wouldn't necessarily be especially proud of being the one to do it. (It's a very debatable point, I know). Similarly, I think he'd consider rescuing people from a burning building more important than teaching someone to read, but I don't think it's something he'd be particularly proud of having accomplished. It's too easy for him, too everyday. I'd be interested to see how others would have answered with the same list but a different emphasis (most proud, most want, most important, etc).

As for God, I wasn't sure what to say. The show avoided even hinting at an answer to this one, and I think that's a good thing. Ultimately, I chose yes, but mainly because I know that more people do than don't. Like others, I'd have been happier with an in-between answer. Then again, if anyone has reason to know how complicated that question can become if you let it, it would be me.

The question about saving only one of his family was really hard. I don't think there's any way to really answer it. I, like most, ended up choosing "his child," but the only thing I could think of to even start coming to a conclusion was the fact that in ATAI, he put Lois's life in danger in order to save his parents.

Like Sara, I had a hard time choosing anything from the list of teenage troubles. For me, it's the fact that I consider him too responsible to do most of the things there. I know I was at that age. What I find interesting is that one of the best reasons I can imagine for him doing something to get in trouble is exactly the reason Sara says she thinks he wouldn't -- so as not to stand out. I'm not saying he'd cave to peer pressure, but I can see him being afraid that if he was too squeaky clean and didn't at least try some things that were at least a little bit against the rules, he might stand out too much.

I think skipping school is a good example of that, with the added possibilities (as Sara mentioned) of complications arising from his developing powers. On the other hand, making out with a girl may well be a better example. Not that he'd take it too far, but it's something I can see him doing for a variety of reasons. Because he was curious. Because he wanted to test himself. Because he didn't want to stand out too much by turning her down too quickly.

I must admit, though, that I'm kind of surprised by the number of people who chose "drinking a beer." I guess it seems like more to me, since I don't drink, but I find it a little hard to see Clark getting involved in underaged drinking.

Anyway, great poll, Lynn. Looking forward to seeing the next one.

Paul

Enjoyed the quiz.

I found the one about which person he would save easy, simply because all three of the other people on that list would want him to choose his child. (Ask any mother or grandparent )

The one about making love at the office... Well, there I was going to click no. Then I thought about how I would answer that question for Lois and came up with yes. So then it became a struggle. After all, who else would Lois be making love with in the office . So the question became: 'Who would win that fight?' Well, that question seemed easy enough. Lois would win . And so my answer for Clark changed.

As for god... I have asked myself that question a lot. For Lois, it would be easy enough (at least in my opinion). Lois doesn't believe anything that she can't see and touch. So I doubt she'd believe in God. With Clark, I suspect he'd believe in a higher power in the universe. How he would actually define that power, I'm not sure. So the two options for me weren't satisfactory. I chose 'yes', but that would be 'yes' with a qualification of: 'depending on how you define god.' (Of course, that is a much larger question for a very different discussion )

But sometimes, I wished there was a 'depends' answer. I would have wanted to see the build up to the question before answering it.

And some of the questions didn't seem to be about character to me (like what type of job he would choose). That was one where I would have chosen 'depends.'

Anyway, interesting quiz, Lynn. I'm looking forward to seeing the Lois quiz.

a little correction. i voted for ice breath but didnt read the question right. my vote would be for flying then.

Interesting poll. I would consider some of the questions trick in some aspects and i dont know who clark would save. I dont think he would save his parents, but lois... i dont think he would give up on her or on their child. i think he'd die trying to save both.

It's interesting that so many people think Clark does not believe in God. (Not that I got the impression he thought about God all that much or that deeply. Rather, like many Americans (according to quite a number of polls I have seen), he believes that God exists, most likely self-identifies as a Christian, and neither attends church on any regular basis nor worries much about it.)

Serious question: if he does not believe in God, to whom is he speaking in AtAI?

Rivka, I hardly think that needs to be taken as a literal indication that he thinks he's talking to god. It could well just be a way to vent his frustration without any real belief behind it. I'm not saying that's necessarily what it is, but that's the way I'd take it, whether or not he actually is a theist.

Paul

I've never been given the impression that Clark was particularly religious, Rivka - although both of them would really have to believe in something after the appalling Mike, wouldn't they? Not many couples have their wedding certificate signed by an angel.

Which was partly why I loathed Mike with a vengeance.

And, as Paul says, I wouldn't take that example as any kind of proof. As an athiest/agnostic, I'm quite likely to say something of the same kind in similiar circumstances and I wouldn't mean it at all seriously.

In fact, I was just as surprised by how many thought he did believe in God as you were by those who didn't.

LabRat

just a quick comment on something Paul said:

Before that, though, he told Lois to get herself out of town, which by implication would be choosing to save her rather than his folks. I think the only reason he went along with Lois's plan was that it seemed to hold out hope that he could save everyone.

PJ

Isn't that what I said? Nah, it's (at least in theory) an SF show -- "angel" can simply mean advanced alien. Unconscious bias, I guess.

I think it's interesting how often we do seem to agree on Clark's choices, and both interesting and quite gratifying how often I seem to have gone along with the majority.

On the question of what Clark would be most proud of, however, I see I'm at odds with the majority. The popular choice appears to be that he'd be most proud of earning a compliment from Lois. Now, I agree that's something he would enjoy tremendously and it's something that would make him feel good. But be proud of? I'm not so sure he wouldn't feel prouder to have helped someone else better themselves (ie, helped them to read) than to have done something which plumps up his own ego. Yes, he's not a selfless angel who always puts other people's interests before his own, and he's certainly not beyond a bit of self-aggrandisement, but I just think in this case 'proud' isn't quite the right emotion to accompany receiving a compliment from Lois.

Count me in the camp who's surprised at how many people think Clark believes in God. Perhaps this is one area where it's very hard not to superimpose our own beliefs on top of Clark's.

Wow, we're evenly split on whether he'd make love to his wife during business hours! I chose no, but I wasn't terribly sure. Again, he's not a total goody two-shoes, and perhaps if you caught him in the right frame of mind, he might just misbehave.

Yvonne

If it was what you meant to say, then we're definitely in agreement. But, no. Your earlier post stated that Clark believed in God but didn't think too much about it. I, OTOH, never got the impression from the show that he believed in God at all - that's what I meant by 'particularly regligious'. That he wasn't religious at all. I was probably a little more ambiguous there than I should have been - chalk it up to Scots language. It's a phrasing we use all the time in my neck of the woods to mean 'not at all'.

But then, it wasn't made clear on the show that he didn't either. At least, racking my brains to remember and don't recall anything he said or did that definitively marked him as an athiest - I think TPTB wanted that ambiguity deliberately, so that viewers of both persuasions could read what they wanted into it and be happy.

It could, I suppose. But in the context of the show, it was, imo, made very clear that Mike was the traditional angel taking orders from God to get Lois and Clark married. I certainly never got the impression we were dealing with some alien species that had somehow, for some inexplicable reason, taken in interest in two Earthlings and their marriage problems and traveled many space miles to make sure they made it. Although, now that I think about it, it would have made as much sense as Mike did.

Yeah, I found that one quite amusing.

LabRat

Lab -

I just wanted to chime in that I also am atheist-agnostic.

You can email me and let me know if you think that sam and Jack have any theistic notions. What about Daniel? And by theistic, I mean specifically in the spirit in which they may have been raised.

Leela

Out of pure curiosity, I opened up this topic, and even thought I found myself confused about the presentation of the poll, I decided to open it up and take a stab at things.

Let me start off by saying that your opening statement is curious, Lynn, and seems to have absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.
By posting the poll, it seems that the answer automatically becomes characterization by committee. I don't agree with that approach, personally. There IS a rubrick for how the characters of Lois and Clark should be characterized, and it's called, "Lois and Clark: the New Adventures of Superman." Ideally, fics written for this fandom should be based around the characters as presented in the show, like it or not. The only qualification to write them is to know the subject matter and to care about the characters and what happens to them.

I tend to take exception to the idea that characterization should be based on how the characters have been presented in other fics. I actually think that's part of the problem with fanfic right now - people have gotten away from the show. The last new episode aired in 1997, the last rerun aired a couple years ago. Unless you have your tapes and still watch them, then your memories of the show are probably getting a little fuzzy, and sometimes fic is your only regular exposure to the subject matter. One author may (unintentionally) take a certain characteristic of Lois or Clark and simplify it when they use it in a story. An author who reads the story may like the premise and use it in their own fic, but may in the process simplify or stereotype it further, such that you end up having a "defining characteristic" of one of the characters that was never really mentioned in the show (or was maybe mentioned briefly) and was mostly the invention of fic writers. When this happens enough times, the characters seem to become caricatures or stereotypes, even though they're "in cannon" in the fic universe.

That being said, on to the questions. A lot of these needed a "none of the above" choice. For example:
-If Superman couldn't rescue a bus full of senior citizens, I can see him escaping to some remote corner of the world to work out his frustrations. Then maybe get mopey when he gets home and dwell on what happened.
-The Lois Lane relationship question seemed bogus. Definately none of the above.
-Superpowers: where's invulnerability? That would be my (personal) choice.

A lot of these things I don't see as "Characterization", in that they are topics that aren't addressed on the shows, therefore there is no way to believe that the answer should be one of the ones given or something else entirely. I thought the God question was the most interesting, and I've addressed it in my fics. I'm not a religious person, but I really don't know how Clark could do what he does without the belief in some sort of higher power. When things don't always go as planned, there has to be some comfort in knowing that maybe it happened for some higher purpose. You don't have to be a regular church-goer or religious zealot to have the basic belief that there is a purpose in everything that happens. But that's just my belief.

Thanks for the chance to discuss these things.

AnnN.

Ah! But isn't that the whole point of fanfic? To explore new territory that wasn't part of the series?

I appreciate your point on characteraztion needing to come from the show. (That's what Lynn was trying to prove, imo, from this poll - see how well we know L&C characterization from the show). But also realize that as we put out favorite characters in new and different situations that we don't have characterization canon for, we need to have a rationalization for how they act and react. For that, we can only speculate and make our best guesses on how they would handle things from what we *do* know of the show. Expand upon that characterization that we do know.

So is fanfic a gross manipulation of characterization (not trying to put words in your mouth )? Yup! That's exactly what it is! But we do the best we can from the foundation we were given.

Sara

Oops... thought of something else.

I'd like to think that what we all consider characterization canon is something not so static. It grows and evolves with every fic we write as a fandom. If author number two agrees with author number one's characterization, why not use it? And if it gets used repeatedly because most everyone agrees with it, that makes it part of what we all consider canon, right? Yes, there are some stories that are grossly out of character and not rationalized, but on the whole, I'd like to think that fanfic authors have created not so much a new canon for characterization, but one that is enhanced from what we were given.

For example, we never saw Clark cry on the show, so we can assume that to be part of the "original" canon - that Clark does not cry. Now, many fanfic authors have brought Clark to tears (and believably so). Does this mean any stories in which Clark cries are out of character? Not really, IMO. Who's to say that Clark wouldn't have cried in season 5? Or that during the parts of the show we didn't see (in between episodes and scenes) he didn't break down and cry, or at least weep? Regardless, it's become a part of the evolved canon.

If we're expanding the L&C universe, why not the characterization too?

Sara (who thinks she's really done now )

That's your view, Cindy, and you're welcome to it. Personally, I thought it was a good introduction. It established the mood and purpose of the poll, which, to me, is largely a question of how much our individual interpretations of the characters are in alignment.

Furthermore, I don't think any of the theories mentioned in that opening paragraph were intended to be advanced as the single correct answer to the rhetorical question "Who is qualified to judge whether or not something is in character?"

"Someone who has read a lot of fic" is a possible answer, but only one among many. It's not one I'd agree with, either.

Then again, whether you'd seen all 88 episodes or only the first 44 wouldn't really matter if you were talking about a situation that takes place before Season 3.

Furthermore, you can't point to the series as the ultimate answer. Not only are there plenty of situations and possibilities which were never covered in the series (which is what makes fic possible in the first place), but individual episodes were written by entirely different people. I don't think many people would disagree with me if I said that Lois, Clark, Perry, Martha, and Jonathan were all acting at least somewhat out of character in "Chi of Steel." It's a real episode. It's in canon. Despite that, however, it's still fairly clear that those characters were behaving in ways which conflict with their established personalities.

I don't see that the poll is offering an answer to the question at all. To me, it's not a question of finding a right answer, but rather a way for me to gauge how closely my understanding of Clark's character lines up with the understanding of the fandom at large. If the majority thinks differently than I do, does that mean I'm wrong? No. Is it something I should take into consideration? Probably.

I agree with you that there were times when, given the choice, I would have picked something that wasn't on the list. As I mentioned in that thread, that happened to me more on the Lois quiz than on this one. (For example, on the first question, there was no option saying that she would return the dress, which is what I finally concluded she'd have done.) The thing is that there are only a finite number of options one can include given this format. Lynn did the best she could to provide good options without including an overwhelming number of choices. Sometimes, that meant that she left out what I or somebody else considered the best option. Maybe she didn't even think of that possibility. Nobody's perfect, and you can't please all of the people all of the time.

I don't think the solution to that is to include an "other" or a "none of the above." As others have stated, doing so is detrimental to the effectiveness of the poll. If there had been an "other" option available, anyone with his or her own idea would have picked that, along with anyone who wanted to choose more than one answer. We'd have been left with the majority choosing "other" on far too many questions, each meaning something else entirely.

That's exactly the point, Cindy. The poll was intended to cover situations and aspects which hadn't come up on the show. If it had been constructed otherwise, it wouldn't have been a question of characterization, but rather of trivia knowledge.

Nor was the idea to show a definitive right answer. In fact, Lynn said more than once that she didn't believe there was a definitive right answer.

Actually, looking back on Lynn's introduction, I could just as easily have shortened this entire post by just telling you to go back and read the rest of what she had to say after the paragraph you quoted.

Lynn stated up front that:

• She had intentionally chosen questions about aspects and situations which were not directly addressed on the show.
• We were to choose our answers based on the show's canon. (In other words, not to allow fic to sway our judgement.)
• There were no right or wrong answers.
• No one but Clark himself has ultimate authority to say what he would or would not do.
• There was a real possibility that we would all choose such different answers that the poll would tell us nothing more than that we each have our own interpretations and that none of us is right.
• She did not include an "Other" option because she didn't want to open the question up to that many possibilities. (Since that would defeat the purpose of the poll.)
• Sometimes we just have to agree to disagree.

To me, this is a lot closer to what the poll is all about. The question was "Does Clark believe in God?" There was no answer to that given on the show. You thought about it, about who Clark is, what he does, and what drives him to do that. You concluded that, for his actions to make sense to you, he would have to believe in a higher power.

I chose "yes" to that question for a very different reason. I think it's entirely possible to do what Clark does without needing a higher power for guidance or emotional support. That's because I believe in secular humanism, which includes the belief that human beings (and, presumably, Kryptonians) are capable of doing good for its own sake.

My reason for choosing "yes" to that question was more one of background. From what I know of the US in general and the Midwest in specific, someone born and raised in Kansas is more likely to believe in God than not. It also seems to me that Clark's hopeful and optimistic personality is one that lends itself to some sort of belief.

I think it's interesting to know that, even though we have different views on quite a few things, we came to the same answer on this question, even without any evidence from the show itself. I think it's also interesting that we have such different reasons for choosing that answer.

I also think it's very interesting to see in general how my answers matched up against the majority and also which questions and areas are clearest and which are the most contested. Now I know that (based on a sample of 56, which is a good number for a fandom this size) about 3/4 of FoLCs think that Clark believes in some sort of God, but that we're split 50/50 over whether or not he'd have sex with his wife during business hours.

I also think it's very gratifying to know that my understanding of the character matches up so well with the general fandom's. For the most part, we've chosen the same answers, and on most of the questions when I was torn between two possible answers, it seems that the fandom is similarly split.

To me, this was a very interesting exercise, and I learned a lot.

Paul

Seems to me that one of the benefits of the poll was to find out to what extent fans agree in their understanding of Clark's character.

Of course, as Cindy says, the series itself is the source of all knowledge, but as can be plainly seen from the numerous discussions on characterisation and events from the episodes, fans' interpretation of this information can differ wildly. For example, I remember a long discussion on whether we could see Lois and Clark sinking to the floor behind a floaty curtain at the end of one of the eps, and whether or not we were therefore meant to assume that they slept together - during the Krypton arc, I think. Now, we all watched the same images on the screen. But some of us didn't even notice the vague movement hinting that they'd slid down to the floor (ie, me <g>). Some of us saw the movement and thought nothing of it. And some of us went the whole way and thought they'd slept together - and were utterly surprised that the rest of us didn't think the same.

Now, the above example isn't an issue of characterisation, but I still think it's fair to use it as an illustration of how different fans will take the same information and interpret it in quite different ways. Who can say who was right and who was wrong in the above example? No-one but the series production team.

So you're saying that if Clark is put into a situation which tests an aspect of his character not addressed in the show, then no-one can predict authoritatively what he may or may not do? Or is that twisting your words unfairly?

Yvonne

I was mentally preparing a reply post, then Sara and Paul and Yvonne very eloquently put into words my exact thoughts.

But I do want to weigh in on the following:

The impetus for me to create this poll in the first place was some frustrations I had been feeling over claims that people who write fanfic that deviates from the parameters of the show (and I'm not talking about OOC but rather premises that deviate from what we saw in the show) are not true LnC fans, but rather hybrid fans who use their interest in other incarnations of Superman to...for lack of a better word...infect their stories.

I so strongly disagree with this assertion that it lead me to wonder why it is that some people feel they are better qualified to judge characterisations and appropriate premises than others, to know when a certain story depicts a "Smallville" Clark or a "Christopher Reeves Movie" Clark versus simply an LnC: TNAOS Clark who's been thrown into unsual circumstances. I personally consider everyone who frequents these MBs true LnC: TNAOS fans, all of us experts, and all of us qualified to offer an opinion.

Thus the birth of this poll - to demonstrate how all of us in this little corner of the fandom bring to the table a wide variety of experiences that lead us to assume different things about the characters, despite the fact that we all watched the exact same 88 episodes. And just because we differ in our answers about what Lois or Clark might do in a given situation doesn't make any one person less of a fan of LnC: TNAOS.

Like Paul said, my question as to what it takes to be an "expert" on LnC: TNAOS was purely rhetorical. I don't know the answer to that. Cindy summed up my own feelings on the correct answer perfectly:

The way this poll was constructed was to push everyone out of the comfort zone. If I had asked questions such as "What would Lois do if Lex proposed to her?", we all know the answer or we could all run to our taped copy of BaTP to find out. This poll wasn't set up to confirm things we all saw on the show but rather to see how we would take what we learned about these people on the show and apply it to new situations. Because fanfic is not a rehashing of the show but rather an effort to pull the characters out of the show and put them into new situations. Or at the very least, fanfic twists the circumstances that were presented in a given episode so that the outcome is no longer certain or the road taken to the same end is different.

And since fanfic goes beyond what we were shown in the show, we have to make guesses about what the characters would do, just as this poll asked you to do.

In direct response to Cindy's concern about specific questions:

The question doesn't ask "What does he do immediately." It asks what he does when he gets home. Could be that he spends a few hours or days on a remote cliff somewhere, beating himself up for his failings. But when he finally returns home...

Why is it bogus? Or why is it any more bogus than any hypothetical question? All of these questions are bogus. Every question in every quiz in every magazine or on every website is bogus, right?

I am sorry for some dumb mistakes I made in answer choices - especially the questions about superpowers - because I had honestly forgotten a few of them. That was just a bone-head move on my part.

In the end, this poll did exactly what I'd hoped it would do. It shows that we all have different ideas, and while we all would agree that certain actions can be judged out of character (Clark killing someone - even Hitler), some areas are just too gray for any one action to be claimed the only "in-character" action.

In the end, I believe in Lab's philosophy that any character can do pretty much anything given the proper motivation. IMO, the mark of an excellent story is how well the writer presented that motivation so that when the character does act in a way counter to what I'd expect that I not only understand why he or she did it but see his or her actions as perfectly natural given the situation.

I already know how Lois would react if Lex proposed to her. I want to know how Lois would react if Lex kidnapped her and held her prisoner in fortress buried in the Swiss Alps...

Lynn

LOL--well, we know how ONE fanfic writer thinks she would respond. *thinks it's about time to reread the awesome Masques*

This was a very neat poll--made for some interesting discussion, I can see. Unfortunately, I don't have time to add my own two bits, really, but most people summed up what I would have said already anyhow. Thanks for creating it, Lynn!

Well I thought this was a fun poll! It was interesting to see what got the majority of votes with the exception of 2 I was in the majority. It is interesting how we all see certain aspects of Clark very clrarly. Now do one for Lois! Thank you! Laura

There already is one for Lois, Laura. You'll find it here

Responding to some responses given....

I'd like to start out by saying that it's my own personal belief that the point of fanfic is not to *change* the show or try to make it into what we wish it were, but to supplement the show, to expand on the things that we were presented with. Sometime we play "what-if" with certain things (like revelations), but again, it's done within the framework of the show - what if this had happened just a little bit different at this point, et cetra.

To that end, it is also my belief that some things should be taken as absolutes (or "canon"). These include most of the basic, global concepts presented on the show, the core of which is how the characters are presented. That's why I have to disagree with the following statement:
When that happens, you're no longer writing fanfic about the show, you're writing fanfic about other fanfic. It's like making a copy of a copy on an old Xerox machine - The lines become blurred and eventually you can't even make out the original anymore. Just because everyone seems to like a concept and it appears repeatedly in fanfic doesn't make it "in canon", it just makes it popular. It also makes for boring fic.

I freely admit that there is plenty of gray area as far as the characterization of Clark and Lois go. Plenty of issues were not addressed on the show, and if a fanfic writer wants to tread down a new path to see what the characters would do, fine. But at the same time, there are plenty of areas that WERE covered, and thoroughly at that. There's no excuse for taking a characteristic that was well defined on the show and completely changing it to make the characters react in a way they wouldn't normally in order to try and beat the characters to fit whatever plot you've conceived.

It shows a lack of understanding of the character if you are unable to define the differences between Clark as presented in LnC, Smallville, and the movies. There are such fundamental differences between the three that it's hard to know where to begin. If one has to stretch the character so far to fit their story that the lines between the three are blurred, than it's probably a good bet that Clark won't be considered in character by a good number of people.

And? A skyscraper is built by a whole lot of people, but ultimately it comes together as one building. Different authors contributed different things to their episodes, but that's what gives the series more depth and more flavor. Ultimately, the show is a body of work, and it is the rock that a fanfic should ideally be centered around.

On the poll:
Well, you just proved my point. If the information from the results of the poll influence how you approach the character, then the group has asserted its will upon you. Thus, characterization by committee.

My point is that characterization can't be limited to a small set of (generally unsatifactory or overly simplstic) choices, and trying to make people choose from a list of answers they don't agree with doesn't accomplish anything. It would be interesting to see how many people would vote "other" to some of those questions, and what people would give as an explanation after the fact. That would probably say more about how characterization is approached. Even just generating a list of questions and letting it be discussed in the absence of a poll would work.

That's where we differ, I guess.

AnnN.

While I agree with Cindy that it's absolutely necessary to return to the episodes if we want to consider ourselves able to write in character, I think that the points others are making are also very valid. We don't know how Lois or Clark would react in all situations, because the series didn't consider all situations.

Consider this: are there any scenarios in which Clark would walk out on his (happy) marriage to Lois? Abandon Superman? Divorce Lois and move to another country, eventually starting a new relationship? Well, try Demi's Heaven's Prisoners, in which Clark does exactly that after failing to save Martha and Jonathan. Wonderful story. Very convincing premise.

How about Clark lying to Lois and deceiving her so that he can carry on a sexual relationship with her? One that he would not have if he was honest? I'm not talking here about sleeping with her without telling her that he's Superman (there are several stories where he does that), but deceiving her about something even more fundamental... that he's not her husband. Well, in a classic story, Zoomway's Counter-ClarkWise, he does just that. And it's believable.

Clark doesn't kill? Yeah, I'd go along with that. But has anyone read Raconteur's amazing Burden of Conscience? She convinced me that he could commit a deliberate act of murder, in self-defence.

So I will (almost) never say that it's simply not possible for a character to do X or Y - I'll go by the circumstances of the story and the motivation given by the author for the character's actions.


Wendy (who recently went on a binge and watches several episodes prior to writing a few short stories )

I have to disagree on this point. I know I wrote my first fanfic to *change* what I thought was *wrong* with the show. I despised Family Hour -- I thought that it was an inappropriate ending to a wonderful show. I think that is why a lot of people do episode rewrites. As authors, we have the ability to write what we deem as more appropriate endings to episodes. Actually, this would make an interesting poll. I wonder how many people think fanfic can not change the show into what we want it to be vs. who thinks fanfic's main purpose is to change the show into something we like better while still keeping the characters within the parameters of characterization we saw on the show.

- Laura

Ah... but you see, Cindy, I'd say exactly what you said, but about what you describe as "fanfic about the show." The more times we see the same situations from the show (or close to it), the more it gets old and frankly sometimes boring.

In Textual Poachers (a highly respected book on the subject of fan fiction), Henry Jenkins said: "Fan fiction is a way of the culture repairing the damage done in a system where contemporary myths are owned by corporations instead of owned by the folk."

Couldn't have said it better myself, though I think he made a typo... should be "FoLC".

IMO, fanfic is essentially writers taking the *characters* from the show they like and putting them in new and different situations or putting them in the same situations so that we can fix what we thought was wrong. If we didn't have new and different situations, it *would* be boring, not to mention there'd be no real point in writing fanfic in the first place.

The Xerox example you give is great! Take TOGOM for instance. That single episode has been run through the Xerox machine hundreds of times for re-writes and extensions. The original is still discernable: Lois and Clark, Clark gets shot by Clyde Barrow, angst ensues. And it's that blurring of the lines that makes each story different - *not* boring.

As far as writing fanfic about fanfic...

The point I was trying to make about expanding our idea of canon (or "fanfic canon" if you must ) is not that the same ideas for stories are copied over and over again, but that the characterization is mimicked. This, IMO still falls within the definition of fanfic. We simply use the characters we know and love (with a healthy dose of believable characterization) and away we go!

Though you say:

I can't say I agree with that, especially the part about beating the characters to fit. There's a story I remember (even got a Kerth nom this year!) in which we met Lois and Clark as college students, both alone and a little unsure of themselves... living in different states. Clark has a life changing epiphany and ends up becoming Superman while he was still in college. This is far outside what I consider to be the realm of show canon, but it worked for me and I didn't find that the author had to beat the characters to fit the new and original plot. I really loved "Bolt, From Dubuque." In the same respect, Kevin was not a part of the show. You created an original character, not of Lois and Clark and not of anyone's previous work. Granted, the idea of power transference was from the show, but Kevin was not. Does all this mean that this really isn't fanfic? Or that it's boring fanfic? IMO, I didn't find it boring at all, and I'd certainly classify it as fanfic.

Not necessarily. No one said that the poll results were fast and hard rules of what everyone needed to abide by when considering characterization when writing fanfic. But as Paul said, it's something to take into consideration if your answers don't match up with the results of the poll. That doesn't mean that you can't stray from what the results were.

Sara

Good grief, I can't believe I'm still up <g>. I hate end-of-term...

I did want to respond here, though, to some of the things that have been said.

I don't think that example really works. A skyscraper is built by a lot of people, yes, but all of them are following the very precise plans of an architect somewhere. They're not improvising details here and there or coming up with their own variations. If they were, I don't think the building would stand for very long . IMHO, the same is true of any collaborative work, from construction to music to computer engineering. Programs fail because one programmer used feet and another used meters. When a bunch of people are working together on something and aren't following strict guidelines, you're bound to have a few inconsistencies here and there.

So that said, doesn't each viewer cull through the episodes s/he's seen and select out what s/he feels is "right?"

The other problem with working only with what TPTB give us is that TPTB aren't always interested in doing what's "right" for the show or the characters. They're inhibited by a slew of other factors: Are they attracting the right demographic? Will their contract be renewed? Do the actors want out? If the long-denied romance is resolved, will the show be cancelled (aka the Moonlighting Curse)? And if so, what artificial means can they contrive to keep them apart, no matter how stupid?

I mean, look at the X-Files. For eight or nine years, TPTB strung the fans along with Mulder and Scully's will-they-won't-they dance. They dangled hints of "the truth" that was out there, but never let viewers put the pieces together. Ultimately a lot of people got sick of being led around by the nose and stopped watching. When TPTB finally started giving the viewers what they wanted, it was too little too late. I imagine a lot of L&C fans felt the same way about the clone wedding arc. I remember seeing the finale of season 3; after clones, fake weddings, amnesia, etc, L&C still weren't married and Clark was leaving for New Krypton. I remember thinking (and please don't hate me, guys, I did come back to the fold ) that at the rate they were going, I didn't care if the show came back for the fourth season or not. I'd had it with the runaround.

So do I think L&C act out of character sometimes? Yes. Do I think TPTB care? Not always, no. As Sara said, they're a corporation. They don't want nearly the same things we do. So I don't feel particularly bound to play by their rules. We're not making any money here; we write what we want to write.

Now, I'm not advocating that people twist the characters into something unrecognizable, slap them into a plot, and call it L&C. But every writer has to make choices about what to accept and what to ignore. In my opinion, what's important is that the writer stay true to the spirit of the show and the characters, but you can't be exactly right all the time. The show simply didn't provide that many answers. And if we did know how Lois/Clark would react in every situation imaginable, well, fanfic would become rather predictable, wouldn't it?

I mentioned this in the Lois Quiz thread too, but I'll say it again. I think the difficulty of the choices and the absence of a "None of the above" option were kind of the point of the quiz. And if there were a none of the above/other option, the answers would diverge all over the place and we'd never find any sort of common ground. If, as I assume, the point of the poll was to see how other people felt about the characters, seeing a bunch of "none of the above" answers in a spreadsheet doesn't tell you much.

And I don't think anyone was trying to make anyone do anything. If people disagree with the poll, they're free not to take it. And if they disagree with the results, they're free to ignore those too. For some of us, this was a fun and enlightening exercise. If you found it troubling, maybe just take it with a grain of salt and don't worry about it.

Kaylle
(finally off to bed!)

Well, I was going to stir my brain into my own thoughts on this debate - but fortunately Kaylle got here before me and pretty much nailed what was on my mind. And so eloquently too. <g>

My brain thanks you, Kaylle!

So...what she said.

LabRat

Well, I'll say this, Cindy -- it's never dull with you around! It's been a fascinating discussion.

See, this is where we disagree completely -- I think the main point of fanfic is to *fix* the stupid stuff on screen, and make it better. The producers were limited by all sorts of things -- ratings, demographic appeal, time, continuity (by which I mean, a writer couldn't have Lex arrested halfway through season 1 if the rest of the season has him out and unsuspected). We as fanfic writers are *not* limited by these things. We can (and have!) write hundreds of different ways for Lois to realize CK=S, which just isn't possible in the structure of the show. There were many many great things about the show, of course, but also lots of moments that make me cringe It's very satisfying to revisit those moments and make them come out the way *I* wanted them to. That's the thing I love about Persistence of Memory -- Zoom jumps back into *lots* of different moments from the show and gives them a better outcome.

Yes, we should draw from canon, especially in characterization -- but I don't believe we ought to be limited by it. The other day, I was looking over the 40-some stories I've written in the last ten years, and there were very few that didn't change canon in small or large ways. <shrug> That's what's fun about this, for me.

Should we draw on "fan canon"? I think if an author comes up with a new way of looking at things and gives me a new insight, it's fair game to use it in the future. It should be checked back against "real" canon, because the further things divulge the harder they are to justify, but overall I think that enhances the whole body of fanfic, because others will identify things I hadn't thought of.

Will my interpretation work for everyone? Nope, probably not. There are certainly stories out there that I look at and think "who the heck *are* these people?" but there are lots of other readers who see those stories as very compelling and a justifiable extrapolation from canon. Variety, spice of life, etc.

I guess I have a very capitalistic approach to fanfic. Writers write what they want to write. Readers read what they want to read. The challenge is in convincing readers that the changes you're making are plausible under the circumstances. If you write something I dislike or strongly disagree with, you'll lose me as a reader (and I reserve the right to say so and explain why) -- but you might also pick up four other readers somewhere else, so hey, go for it.

Tolerant, that's me

PJ

[language cop]
cannon means a big gun; canon is an established body of work (of a writer, genre, religion, etc.)
[/language cop]

Cruising around, I found the following definitions:

From The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000

From wikipedia.com:
From Writers University:

From Dictionary.com:

Note the common theme in these definitions (yeah, I bolded it)? Fanfic, by definition, is an extension of the original work. Who's to say how far that extension can reach or what sort of extension is acceptable? I certainly wouldn't be so bold.

There is an interesting essay written by Jane Mortimer about fanfic writing. I found the following to be very profound:

And this:

All this to say, there will always be purists in a fandom who are not satisfied with the extensions some writers take. That's fine. Because our fandom is so prolific, there are plenty of stories out there that purists can be satisfied with. The problem comes when purists begin to insist that all others conform to their strict definitions of what is acceptable or not. At which time I start to ask the question of who is qualified to say what is acceptable or not? This poll along with the Lois version demonstrate - to me, anyway - that no one can claim that right. We are all qualified and unqualified equally.

Cindy, I *do* know the difference between a Smallville Clark and a CR Movies Clark and an LnC Clark. My point is just because an LnC Clark does something counter to what we'd expect based on the show (as demonstrated in the examples of successful fanfics referenced by Wendy and Sara in their above posts), this does not mean he is a Smallville Clark or a CR Clark. Same thing with premise. Just because a writer chooses to put LnC Clark into a non-LnC situation - especially a darker situation - does not mean that the writer is channeling Smallville. Or the movies. Or Batman, or anything else.

What I find highly ironic is when those who claim no love of Smallville, those who will not watch the show at all, proport that a given depiction of Clark in an LnC fanfic is a "Smallville" Clark. How would that non-Smallville-fan know?

And this:

Please, feel free to create a poll of your own that corrects this problem. I'm always open to seeing how things can be done better.

Hey, Sara, regarding this:

I found this , so maybe this word works:

Laura, ask and you shall receive.

Lynn

Coming to this thread very late, but hopefully with something new to contribute...

Thing is, does it matter if fanfic changes over time? Okay, so I want my characters to be in character, but fandoms do change and evolve. That's the reality of the situation. (I left the Due South fandom because the fandom -- and the show, for that matter -- developed in directions that I didn't like.)

One of the things that kept me interested in Star Trek for so long was the fanfic. Why? Because the best sort of Star Trek fanfic went so far beyond the original show. The fan writers painted detailed backgrounds for the characters that were sometimes deeply satisfying.

Ditto Man From UNCLE fanfic writers. The show is fun but would never have held my interest on its own. However, I stumbled across some fanzines that are long, involved and far more realistic in tone than the show could ever have dared to be. Out of character? Who knows? Wonderfully satisfying to read? Definitely.

Also, what are we to make of the weirdness of some of the directions other fandoms take? I'm sure I've come across the argument that authors write fanfiction because it gives them scope to put their favourite characters in scenarios that would not have been acceptable to their creators. Experimentation and the ability to twist canon every which way are seen as some of the reasons for fan fiction's existence. Folcdom is positively restrained in comparison.

It seems to me that LnC fanfic stays truer than most fandoms' fanfic to its original canon. (I suspect, in large part, this is because we were given more facts to work with than was the case with other shows. There aren't so many gaps waiting to be filled in.) That's one of the things I personally like about it. But I can't see any reason why writers shouldn't experiment, push the limits. In fact, I think it's healthy. Some attempts will work and work well. Others will be terrible. I don't think any of us, however, have the right to say that nobody should be allowed to try them out.

Chris (stepping off her soap box)

/me is still just trying to get her head around the fact that the word fanfic has made it into dictionaries!

LabRat (who remembers the first stirrings of fandom way back when. Yes, I am that old!)

I just wanted to say that, while I couldn't get Lynn's link to the Jane Mortimer article to work, you can read the essay on the Wayback Machine here. Fascinating stuff!

Kaylle

Sorry about that, Kaylle. It works okay for me now, but perhaps there is some funky glitch.

I spent some time today on another site where the author, Tara LJC O\'Shea , had written some excellent essays on fanfic a few years back that are very applicable to this discussion.

One of essays, titled Reality By Consensus , seemed to pretty much sum up Cindy's concerns about why using fanfic to obtain canon for additional fanfic is not a good idea. In fact, Tara's words were eerily close to the ones Cindy used in her post:

I do agree that taking information presented in fanfic but never confirmed by actual, real canon to *be* new canon can lead to fanfic that moves away from the original, possibly even too far.

But Tara also says that most writers of fanfic don't set out to create fanon:

Speaking for myself, this is exactly the view I take when I write fanfic. I'm not trying to change canon or convince people that my version is more correct than what was presented on the show. I'm simply exploring a what-if scenario that exists only within the parameters of my story. I'm willing to bend canon but I'd never expect it to actually remain bent.

I would guess that most writers in this fandom feel the same way.

Lynn

You know, this is a fascinating discussion, but something has just occurred to me.

The thing is, I must be well out of the loop, because I don't actually recall ever noticing these instances of 'fanon' before.

Does anyone have any specific examples they could post? Seems I've missed all the obvious stuff over the years. I'd be interested in seeing some of what I've been oblivious to. Should be equally interesting. Might even be the case that with my memory jogged I'll recall that I actually was aware of them and they've just slipped my mind over time.


LabRat

Labby, there's a Star Trek example that comes to mind.

T\'Kuht first showed up in one author's fanfics as an explanation for how Spock could be correct when he said, "Vulcan has no moon" -- yet something is seen in Vulcan's sky. It spread to other fanfic, and then to the books.



Oh!!! I know a L&C one too! AFAIK, at no time on the show did they say (or even imply) that Clark dislikes being in planes. However, so many fanfics use this as fact that for a long time I thought it was in episode I hadn't seen.

I used to know this stuff... the one example of "fanon" I can remember is from way back -- Zoomway wrote You Made Me Love You and in it, she portrayed Mayson as xenophobic, as in this exchange:

A lot of people adopted that idea, consciously or not. Actually, I remember being slightly surprised to look back at the show and see that the characterization of her *wasn't* supported there.

The only other one I remember is that someone (Chris Mulder, maybe) created a restaurant called "Angelina's" and it showed up in other stories subsequently; I think some people thought it was the name of the place L&C went in Lucky Leon.

edit: Good example, Rivka, which reminded me of another one (I think) -- the idea that Lois's sofas are incredibly uncomfortable to sit on. I don't think that's from the show, but it sure shows up in a lot of fanfic.

PJ

Yes, but just look at them, Pam! Could you imagine curling up comfortably on them? And, of course, we only ever saw them snuggling on Clark's sofa...

Fascinating discussion! Oh, and I have another example - there are plenty of fics which make reference to Clark being a terrible singer. Not from the series at all! As far as I recall from someone explaining it, that came from Dean Cain apparently not being able to carry a note in a bucket.

Edit: Back with another one. What's Clark's favourite film? The Princess Bride? Um... why? That one's not in the series either. Again, I think Dean Cain might have said once that he liked it, and it's found its way into dozens of fic.

Any more?


Wendy

Well, bucket acoustics being what they are, who can blame him?

Since I'm procrastinating on various things, I thought I'd make a thread regarding Lab's question.

Fanon versus Canon

I'll encourage Rivka, Pam, and Wendy to repeat their wonderful examples over there!

Sara

Just being brief here, as I've replied over on Sara's thread. But just to reiterate that I'm thoroughly enjoying all these examples - I see that you got there first with Angelina's, Pam. <g>

Thanks again, Sara, for starting the thread - it was fun to read the responses there this morning - hope there will be many more. It's fascinating.

LabRat

Post edited because author is not paying attention

Just ignore me. The dancing pixies are very distracting.

Helga

See here for Zoom's response:

http://www.zoomway.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=001138;p=1#000000

And as for fanon, there's also the one where Lois wears cucumber oil... For the record, it's cause Teri wore it when she and Dean were doing love scenes because he liked it.

Laura

I came to this thread kind of late, but I noticed one thing in the definitions Lynn quoted: All of those definitions are the same things I would say to justify writing fanfic that only follows canon. Extending a work or developing new plots is exactly what we did in S5 and S6, while staying entirely within canon. So from those definitions, I think it's possible to find support for either position in this discussion. I think S5 and S6 also showed that it is possible to write in canon without just repeating yourself over and over.

If making a choice (even a choice among crappy choices) defines a character, that may explain why some FoLCs don't like episode rewrites that depend on Lois or Clark making a choice that s/he didn't make in the show. When we already know how a character chose, changing it automatically makes the fanfic choice OOC if the character's past hasn't changed. Otherwise, why would the same person make a different choice in the exact same situation?

Or maybe we feel that the choice from canon was OOC. Or else we really don't think that a person's choices reflect his/her personality or character.

Kaylee...

I giggled for a long time over the image you created with this one. I loved it. Just wanted you to know that.

Sheila, I always tried to get around that by using my authorial powers to change some of the background circumstances -- if you change the context of a character's choice, the choice could change. But that's what we talk about as justifying a character's decision (or not), and some choices do require a lot of justification Those justifications will work for some readers and not for others, obviously.

And sometimes, we think "yeah, that was a little OOC, but what the heck, it's turning into a really fun story, so I'll suspend disbelief a little bit more than usual."

Everyone's got their own preferences and paradigms. Live and let live, I say. Enjoy the stuff you like, and avoid the stuff you don't -- the presence on the web of stories I can't stand doesn't really hurt me any. This isn't a limited resource, where only so many stories can be shared, so there's lots of room for various interpretations.

PJ

I was fascinated by both polls, Lynn. Thanks so much for your hard work putting them together. The Lois-poll was a bit harder for me to answer, as it depended so much on the season of the show you were talking about. In the end I decided to follow my perception of Lois in S1 (since it's my favourite season, especially as far as Lois's character is concerned).

The answers and following discussion have been equally fascinating for me to read, and so I'll chime in with my .02.

I've always firmly believed that we're free of the choices/decisions we make, and of our behaviour towards ourselves and others. I don't believe in determinism, which means, to me, that what we saw on the show could have been completely different and still stay in character. I mean, in our life, we make decisions and choices every day, sometimes life-altering decisions. Sometimes the choice is obvious to us (then it's not even a choice at all). But when it's not obvious, when we have to think about it, when we hesitate, it would be just as much "in character" for us to make either decision and go either way. The same goes for characters.

Would Clark tell Lois he's Superman before he proposed to her? In the show, he didn't. But I'm convinced, like many of you guys, that he could have. I'm also convinced that he could have waited longer (his fear of her reaction and his habit to keep it a secret could have made him).

Would Lois go ahead and marry Luthor? In the show, she almost did, but in the end she said she couldn't. If it hadn't been for Clark being always on her mind, I'm absolutely sure she would have, for a whole set of reasons I already waffled on many times over the years, so I won't bore you with them again. Others are absolutely sure Lois would never have said "I do" anyway. Are they wrong? Am I wrong? Who am I to say who's wrong and who's right anyway? Lois is not *determined*. She could have gone ahead with the wedding just like she could have left Lex at the altar. Both would have been in character imho.

So I'm a firm believer that characters (just like any of us) can react in opposite ways while still staying in character. Their choices will affect what comes next, but the choice itself doesn't determine their character. It's the way they *feel* and the way they deal with different situations that show who they truly are.

Then again, I believe we can put Lois and Clark in any kind of situation, just like life puts *us* in any kind of situation. And once we introduce new situations for them to deal with, their reactions and their choices will of course sometimes be different from what we saw on the show. Otherwise it'd mean their life is already determined (and that makes things kind of pointless if you ask me).

Also, some FoLCs have very differing opinions on certain episodes being in character or not. I know there's debate on Barbarians at the Planet / The House of Lane. Others (like myself) think that the last few episodes of S4, with Lois wanting children, is out of character. To be honest, it's not so much that I think it's out of character, but that Lois's change of heart towards having children was not justified enough for me to believe it. And that's just the thing with fanfic: if you put Lois and Clark in circumstances where Lois would come around to actually *wanting* children as badly as in the show, you'll convince me.

And the differing opinion issue comes into play for fanfic as well! We all have different views on what the characters truly feel. Canon never showed how they truly feel in that much detail. Fanfic gives us that, but it's all unofficial. Canon shows us decisions and choices. As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't tell us very much about the inner battles the characters fought. That's where we have some freedom of interpretation, and that's what makes fanfic so rich and interesting.

Fanfic, to me, is about exploring the characters and who they truly are.

Kaethel.

Or, in the words of the old Star Trek philosophy, "infinite diversity in infinite combinations." IOW, there's room for all possibilities in any universe.

Part of the sheer fun of fanfic has always been exploring every and any variation on the themes presented to us in a show. This doesn't mean the characters are necessarily warped. Mostly, in episode rewrites it's the circumstances or events which are changed. Sometimes those changes are so great that we call those stories alternate universes. And sometimes they are minuscule, barely noticeable. Even the tiniest change can have a huge impact on how a character would react in any given situation, however. And exploring all those nuances is part of the fascination. Pull one small thread and see how things unravel.

And even if the situation and circumstances are exactly the same as shown in an episode, it's still fun to say, "Hmmmmmm...wonder what would have happened if Lois said yes instead of no there? Or if Clark had decided to take path B instead of path A?" That's not warping character. It's simply exploring all the possible variations of what could have happened.

So I think it's hard to find justification for the theory that an episode rewrite automatically means characters which are OOC. I've read plenty of episode rewrites where I have no difficulty recognising the Lois and Clark we saw on the show. Heck, I'd even claim to have written a few.

LabRat

Who's zoom?

Zoomway, or Zoom for brevity's sake, is a long time FoLC and fanfic writer The link Laura provided is the reply she posted on her L&C boards (she doesn't come here).

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

Huh?

How does she know what to reply to if she doesn't come here? In fact, what question was posted to her that required a reply, anyway?

I didn't understand Laura's original post, and now I'm even more baffled.



Lynn

She seems to read here, but reply there.

I do the same in reverse.

My understanding, Lynn, is that Zoom isn't registered with these boards and therefore can't post a reply here. I don't know whether she checks them out on a regular basis or if she only peeked in because someone had alerted her to the discussion of a couple of her fics re canon/fanon. She felt that there were some misconceptions, and so started a topic on her boards (the link that Laura posted) to air her viewpoint. I owe a response over there, as it turns out, hopefully tomorrow...

Kathy

Well, for the record, if Zoomway isn't registered here (and to my knowlege, she isn't) then it's because she chooses not to be. We don't make it hard to sign up and no one's banned or anything.

PJ

Ahhh. I see. But if the discussion is here, why would she think that a reply written there would make any sense without the original posts as reference? Kind of pulls things out of context, IMO, if the majority of the conversation is happening in another place and isn't viewed as a whole.

Lynn

I said my peace, so I was going to stay out of the rest of the discussion, but I thought I needed to clear some things up.

First of all, "Bolt, From Dubuque" was mentioned as a story in which the characters had been made to react a certain way in order to fit a predetermined storyline, and was characterized as very much out of canon. While I'm glad that the story was read and enjoyed, the disclaimer at the top stating that it is an ALT-universe story must've been missed.

Zoom's discussion on her boards pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter. If you haven't read her posts, please take a look. Writing in the alternate universe (as presented on the show) is tough, in part because there was no Lois introduced, and in part because we only have 2 episodes to draw from for characterization of Alt-Clark. I consider Bolt to be a story that is very much in character, given what is presented. It's one of those "what-if" scenarios I spoke about earlier - what if you changed one event and things were taken down a different path. The result is the story I gave. And by adding another original character, it becomes an expansion of the universe we're given.

Expanding on the idea of the "what-if" scario, let me respond to something Kaethel wrote:
I think this is entirely wrong. If we use the show as a basis for characterization, then given events A, B, and C, we know that the character will respond in a certain way. To say that a character could react just the opposite way and still be in character is to ignore what the character is in the first place. For example, in the Pheonix, Superman stops Lex Luthor from killing himself, even though he could've easily let Lex go through with it, resulting in a more pleasant future for our favorite hero. Given Kaethel's premise, Clark could've let him die and still been in character, but how many of us truly believe that? Would Superman let someone die when he could save him? Would Superman let someone take the easy way out of well-deserved justice? Should we even have to ASK these questions?

Now, take away one of the events or add a variable (event B2, for example), and the reaction of a character might be different because the situation they find themself in is probably different. But does that mean that they will do 180 degree turn from their initial (known)reaction? I think the underlying fundamentals of the character come into play at some point. In the example above, if the confrontation had taken place at a later time or in a different place, or if Nigel's arrow had been targeted for a possibly fatal place on Lex's person, would Superman still have saved Lex? I think the answer would be yes, becuase of the underlying principle that Superman doesn't kill.

It's called design-build. Look into it sometime. The firm doing the design/build on the building is given a set of specifications and some goals on the project, and creativity results. As long as things are built to certain standards and the agency paying for the building has approved what is being done, then all sorts of variations are possible.

Butting in on another discussion:
Her stories were drug into these discussions, so obviously she felt the need to clarify elements of her stories that were misrepresented. Maybe she figures that anyone who would read the response would know what it's in reference to. I'm sure all you following the link do.

AnnN.

Oh, I agree, I never said it was out of character. I said it worked for me. I'm well aware that it's an alt-world story, and one that you know I enjoyed as I sent you private feedback (Sara Kraft here, aka skfolc ).

Actually, now that I think of it, I'd consider Bolt to be more of an elseworlds story as well as an Early Years story because you deal with alt-Clark when he was younger and gave him an entirely different future. But nonetheless, still in character and a great story, IMO.


Don't really need to read Zoomway's posts to know what an alternate universe story is, but thanks.

No arguement from me there! Like I said, I thought it was very well in character. Perhaps you missed my point. I was aiming to illustrate that taking characters in a different direction than "show canon" isn't a bad thing, and that it certainly doesn't make for bad fic. Sorry if you misunderstood.

As for what you said regarding Kaethel's words:

I think that's a little unfair of you, Cindy. As evidenced by the poll, the majority of us believe that Clark will not kill. I don't mean to put words in Kae's mouth, but I'm pretty sure she agrees with the masses. I think she clearly defined what she meant in her own post:

I don't think she was stating that as a hard and fast rule that had to be applied to *every* decision Lois and Clark made.

Sara

I don't think Kae meant to say that any conceivable choice would be in character -- that's kind of daffy What I understood her to say was that in some situations, there can be more than one choice that would be in character, and picking a different one from the show wouldn't take the character *out* of character.

Think about the end of Metallo. Superman visits Lois, points her gently towards Clark, then flies off. Lois thinks about it and calls Clark's apartment. Now, in the episode, of course, he wasn't there -- but surely you can't mean to suggest it would have been out of character of him to have gone home?

It would have been out of canon, obviously. But not out of character, IMO. And that sort of small change could have set things off in a very different direction.

I'm sorry Zoomway didn't appreciate my compliments of her work I do know that the aspect of Persistence of Memory that I referenced wasn't the main point of the story -- nevertheless it's my favorite part. As for the Mayson thing, hey, maybe I imagined the whole thing But I remember that back when she wrote You Made Me Love You (which was what, 9? 10 years ago?), Zoomway was nearly the supreme authority on what was what in Lois and Clark, and that a lot of people (though not Debby! ) would have accepted her interpretation as logical and insightful. Is that a bad thing?

PJ

Yes, Cindy, I think you picked an extreme example as well, but of course you knew that. You didn't need any kind of poll to tell you that, based on what we saw in the show, the majority of FoLCs would believe that Superman wouldn't kill.

Your example is of course a perfect illustration of events A, B and C staying the same, yet Superman reacting in the opposite fashion would take him out of character. But how about the one that Kae herself suggested, that Sara reminded us of:

We all know show canon. He didn't tell her. But as we also all know, and which Zoom mentioned in the post on her boards, he tried to. Twice in that very episode. So it wouldn't be OOC for him to tell her the truth because we know he wanted to, we know that he planned to, even though events kept getting in the way.

So he didn't tell her, but he could have. He could have gone the opposite way and told her. I don't think this is ignoring "what the character is in the first place".

I think it's fair to say that if events A, B and C stay the same, a character could react to it in different ways and still remain "in character". Sometimes there would only be very little variation possible in those reactions; in some circumstances, the variation could be bigger and as much as the opposite way.

OK, what about your extreme example? Do I think that Superman "could" have just stood there and let Lex kill himself? No way. And even with your adding variables, I still think he wouldn't let Lex die, and would do whatever he had to to save him.

But I also believe in the premise that Clark could kill. I remember reading a very interesting discussion on Zoom's old boards, which Rac referenced it in her preface to "The Burden of Conscience". People were arguing very passionately on both sides, and with pretty good examples to back them up. There was no "winner" there, no overriding authority to say that given a particular scenario, this would be "in" or "out" of character. I personally found Rac's story very believable; others might say that no matter the provocation, it was OOC. I'm not going to set out to change anybody's mind, but I'm also not going to bow down and say, "well, so-and-so said that it's OOC, so therefore it must be."

As far as I'm concerned, this is just one more example of the fact that characterization is to a certain degree subjective. There can be two different interpretations, for example based on the "same" canon, and one is not necessarily more "right" or "wrong" than the other. You can stand in your corner and argue for one, giving examples why this works for you. I can stand in the opposite corner, giving just as many examples the other way. Maybe we're both wrong. Maybe we're both right. Maybe we just have to agree to disagree.

Kathy

I guess I don't understand this as being an example of Clark making a different choice. In the show, he made that exact choice twice. In fact, he got two of the four syllables out ("I'm Sup--") before he was interrupted. Therefore, using that as an example of his making a different choice makes no sense to me. Telling Lois his secret was his choice. Outside events (Jason- and Jimmy-interruptus) that prevented his carrying out his decision don't change the fact that he already made that decision. That, too, is canon. Sara and Pam, I'm glad you explained the limitations on Kaethel's statement because I understood it the same way as Cindy did--that any decision that isn't obvious can be made in any way by any person at any time. For me, that completely negates the whole concept of personality, which is a tendency toward or preference for certain actions or decisions in a given circumstance. Without that preference, no action could be OOC because there would be no character. So I'm glad I was mistaken about what Kaethel was saying.

I believe that when people don't care about the outcome, they can choose one action as easily as another, so in that situation, saying someone could decide either way makes sense. But I also believe that people make their decisions based on their personal preferences, the decisions they've made in the past and how those came out, and the totality of their experiences. So, for me, the same person in the exact same situation will make the same choice.

However, in terms of the poll, that leaves a lot of lee-way. For example, if Clark wasn't a journalist, other things would have to have changed in his life for that to happen, and what those changes were would determine what job he took instead. I think all of us agreed that he would take a helping profession, and I could see him becoming a teacher, a doctor, a policeman, a fireman, or a Peace Corps volunteer, depending on what change kept him from going into journalism.

Similarly, some of the questions gave choices that depended on which season the event occurred in. For example, if a rescue went bad, in Season 1, Clark would normally have talked with his parents; in Season 2, he would most likely have gone to Lois as Superman; and in Seasons 3 and later, he would have gone to Lois as himself. I know that several people said not to worry about the circumstances, but the way I see it, decisions are a specific character's response to a specific set of circumstances. If we want to change his/her decision, we need to change the circumstances. I know many of you will disagree with me, but if you don't change the circumstances, the only other option is to change the character.

And Sara, you thought you were long-winded.

Yes, Sheila, he had made the decision to tell her. Twice in the episode. So we do know that he wanted to tell her, felt it was time to tell her. That is canon.

Although we all know that he planned to tell her before he proposed, the fact is, he didn't. He went a different way and proposed first. And reasons were given for why he did that that are also canon and have often been incorporated into fics.

So for an author to write a fic where Clark follows through on what he'd been trying to do all day and tells Lois, that is Clark making a different choice for that moment than he did on the series. The fact that there is canon support for his decision that she needed to know can only make his choice stronger, and presumably in character, but it is a choice that he didn't take in Centennial Park in the rain.

That's the way I look at it, anyway.

Kathy

Apparently, I was answering a different question than you, Kathy. "Would Clark tell Lois he's Superman before he proposed to her?" Absolutely--as we both noted, he tried to do so twice in ATAI.

But, "Would Clark tell Lois he's Superman before he proposed to her--after she was nearly killed in ATAI?" To that question, my answer would be no, not unless something else happened that would decrease the urgency of showing her how much he loved her and increase the urgency of showing her how much he trusted her.

That's the way I see it, Kathy, but it certainly doesn't mean it's the only way. If you've read my response on the Why Fanfic poll, you'll see that it's a moot point for me anyway. As soon as fanfic writers start changing the decisions L&C actually made or the events that actually occurred to them, they're dealing with alternate universe L&C's, no matter how in-character their L&C may be, and I'm more interested in the adventures of our L&C.

Wow! These threads have become a wonderful way of understanding fellow Folcs' points of view on various aspects of writing, don't you think?

Sheila, I'm intrigued by your view - one that I can identify with insofar as I prefer to read fanfics set after the show finished, or at least are new adventures which might have happened in between the events we saw on the show. I just thought of your story, In The Beginning, though - how does that fit into your way of viewing things? Does the fact that Clark doesn't arrive at the Planet for another year, by which time Lois has already married Luthor, mean that this L&C aren't theL&C?

Yvonne

"In the Beginning" was written for the charity fanzine, which was about "The Many Worlds of Lois & Clark." In other words, the story wasn't supposed to be in canon. I struggled for 3 months (May to August) to come up with an idea that would be about an L&C who weren't our L&C. That should tell you how completely my attention is focused on our L&C and what they actually did and didn't do.

So, yes, Yvonne. The L&C in "In the Beginning" live in an alternate universe. They shared the same universe as our L&C until whatever event occurred that prevented Clark from coming to Metropolis at the time he did in the series. (I'm thinking that Jonathan had a heart attack or suffered rhabdomyolysis in reaction to his cholesterol meds, so Clark had to stay in Smallville to help with the farm until his dad got well enough to take care of the farm alone again.)

Anyway, at that point, their universe split off into an alternate universe from our L&C. So they have the same personalities as our L&C because they have the same pre-pilot experiences, but they're definitely an alt-version of them.

BTW, getting back to the OOC part of the discussion: because I knew how our L&C behaved, once I started writing, I just patterned my L&C's actions and decisions on the L&C I knew so well. That part wasn't really any different than writing about our L&C in a situation that they hadn't faced in the series. It just isn't as satisfying for me to read or write about a different L&C as about our L&C.

Okay, that makes sense, Sheila.

But, darn it, you've just made me wonder something else.
Would the experience of putting his career on hold for a year to look after the farm and probably help look after his Dad too further shape Clark's personality? Would he be a different person to the person who came to Metropolis a year earlier?

Yvonne

Would Clark be a different person after that experience? Slightly, yes. However, since he just gave up a year of his life and put his career plans on hold in order to help someone else, I'm inclined to think that it just strengthened his tendency to put his own life aside to help others. Basically, it just strengthened tendencies that were already there. For me, that matches with his decision to save Lois even though it meant revealing his secret to the most famous reporter in the world. OTOH, you could argue that after learning how vulnerable his parents really are, the experience might have strengthened his fear of letting anyone know his secret and thus putting his parents in danger, which might have made him less inclined to save Lois at the expense of his secret.

That's one of the real pleasures of writing: brainstorming and sorting through and then choosing the events and experiences that will change your character's thinking in a way that the reader finds believable.

Yep, totally agree.
It's also one of the agonies, mind you.

Yvonne