Lois & Clark Forums Forums General Discussion Fun with Polls Could alt Clark kill himself?

A few different things have got me thinking...

What if alt Clark (or any Clark, really) didn't live happily ever after? What if he fell so far into depression he ended it all?

What if someone wrote a fic like this? What if it wasn't a Tank Ending? Would it be well recieved? Why or why not?

Give me the good the bad and the tomatoes. I can handle it. I'm curious to know what everyone thinks...

Sara

You're missing an option here, Sara. Where is:

Wendy

I chose

I'd read it, but I'd really hope for a sequel to undo his sad fate.

Although I strive to read every story I come across, absorb it, be emotionally involved with it; I prefer happy endings, something to smile about. Coz, after I read a story with unhappy or unpleasant endings, I have this urge to read some short sweet waffy story to balance something

Also, if I'm pressed for time, you know which stories I will skip

Just my thoughts....

~Ankit

I voted that I would read it, but I'd hope for a sequel. I'm not sure that this is the right answer, though. I'd rather that you managed to undo the tragedy within the one story.

Thing is, on the one hand, I don't want to read something that is going to be unremittingly sad and depressing. On the other, I don't really like the conventions of folcdom -- or the constraints we put on ourselves -- that say writing deathfics is taboo. Okay, that's putting it a bit strongly, but I think you get the idea.

If we know that a character is going to survive, then it takes away some of the tension that builds up in the story, and that's a shame.

So, on a personal level, I wouldn't want to see Alt Clark dead at the end of the story. On a wider level, I'd encourage you to write it, if that is what your muse is telling you to do.

Hope that makes sense.

Chris

I voted for 'no way'.

Clark (in any Universe) has too much respect for life in general to ever end a life - even his own. IMHO, it just isn't in his make up at all. Getting addicted, okay, but suicide?

That said, I can believe he'd consider it, for a moment, if he was really, really desperate.

I'd be curious to know how a writer would pull this off. Clark is invulnerable; how would he do it?? Even for humans it's not so easy. Yuck!! Just thinking about it makes my skin crawl. The solutions we humans pick clearly wouldn't work for Clark. I mean, he couldn't throw himself before a train, now could he?

The only thing I can come up with is flying towards the sun and getting burned to a crisp.

Again: Yuck!!!

I don't believe that it is in character for Clark in any universe to kill himself. I don't even believe he would use drugs as in one story he did the red kryptonite.

I also have to say I stay away from deathfics and I don't like Tank endings.

The simple fact that the gentle readers require writers to post extreme wham, and deathfic warnings at the beginning of their stories should give you a good idea as to how such things are accepted.

I'm not the purveyor of death and descruction as much as people may think, but, like Chris, I do regret the loss of dramatic tension that such warnings rob the story of.

That said, I too don't think that a Clark/Superman could actively commit sucide. It's well within his character to give his life to save another. And I think it's possible for him to get depressed enough to take greater risks and more dangerous chances because he doesn't care about himself that much. In that case he could be said to be 'courting' suicide without actually committing the act.

Tank (who thinks character deaths can work in stories but they must be logical and not just 'death for death's sake')

Well, there seem to be two questions here. One, do I believe it's in character for alt Clark to kill himself and, two, would I read deathfic.

To the first, I've always been a strong advocate of the theory that you can make a character do anything - and I do mean anything - even something that at first glance might seem to be out of character. You just have to provide the proper motivation for the action. If you do, the story will succeed. If you don't, it won't. Simple as that. Lead your readers with logic to where you want them to be and they'll happily follow. [Or most of them will. ] Throw a curveball at them without any warning or explanation as to why the character isn't acting like himself and they'll stop reading.

With SF, like LNC, it's easier to provide the motivation than with many other genres, because you have a wealth of the weird and wacky to call upon to get your character to where you want him/her to be.

It wasn't in character, after all, for Superman to go around vandalising parking meters or hand a child over to kidnappers - but the motivation was there in the fact that he'd been hypnotised. IOW, you can have your character act out of character and still have the story work, if there's a darn good reason why he's acting OOC. Provided the groundwork is done fully and well, the story should fly. [pardon the pun]

As to the second question: deathfic as a genre, generally, isn't the first thing I'd read. I've found most of it to be maudlin and depressing. And I do like a happy ending on my stories. You can drag my heroes through hell and back, but I like them to get all their problems sorted out by the last paragraph.

Having said that, deathfic written well can be very satisfying. Poignant rather than maudlin. I have more than a few deathfics in my favourite story collections. So I wouldn't discard one out of hand. I'd definitely give it a try first. And in your capable hands, Sarah, I'm sure it would work.


LabRat

Well, I went with "Sara's lost her mind completely" in the sense that she's crazy if she thinks I'll read any such thing I gotta have a happy ending, 'kay? Happily Ever After, not Give Up and Die.

However, that said, lots of people write stories that I wouldn't read and lots of those stories win Kerths, so... don't go by me.

PJ

I said other, because while I'd be interested, just to see that you get him to that edge, I'd still cringe a little to think he might go through with it or even succeed.

My guess is that, yeah he might get that depressed and try to, BUT maybe, just MAYBE someone ELSE would intervene. Something along the lines of "Mr. Wells pops in to kick the kryptonite away just as Clark slips into unconsciousness." only much more plausible.

Maybe?

TEEEEEEJ

No! No! No! Nooooooooo!

He could not, would not.
Not with a rock,
either green or red.
Not with the sun,
flying too close overhead.
Not underwater,
super-lungs drowned.
No kryptonite bullets,
no K-razor blades,
None these things, Sara!
None, in no way!

CC- who totally and entirely agrees with the whole 'proper motivation explains any action' theory. Absolutely. And that death fics can be great fics. Word. And that this fandom has a stranglehold on HEA stories and WHAM warnings, thereby limiting creativity. True.

We have many writers, many readers, many different styles for many different preferences. All good. I think there's an audience for anything, as there should be.

BUT...(/lower lip wobbles) I'm BRing this story! And if poor AltClark is headed over a cliff... well... well...

edit: You know, it belatedly occurs to me- after pitching this fit- maybe this applies to *another* story, Sara?? In which case, yeah, ok. Kill him. I dare ya.

And...okay...I've sat here staring at the screen for ten minutes now and I'm stumped. CC - what's a HEA story?

LabRat (who just knows she's gonna kick herself when CC tells her...)

PS - Okay, forget that. It just clicked. Duh. :rolleyes: Ow. <kick> Ow. <kick> Ow.

Why am I not surprised the author of Masques had a bit of trouble with those initials?

Hey! I gave them a HEA! It just took...a while...that's all! And for that I blame the Muse. /me points accusing finger under the desk...

Wasn't my fault. Oh no.

LabRat (who also blames her betas and the readers of these mbs, who kept coming up with new ways to add page count... See? Not my fault in any way, shape or form. I'm innocent! )

Hey, this could fit the Dr. Seuss challenge...

I had to pick that Sara has lost her mind. And my reasoning is much the same as Pam's.

I don't mind a little torture and mayhem (I've liked most of YConnell's stories!), but I need to have a happy ending.

James.

Well he did O-D in "Addicted".

That's very close to committing suicide.

TEEEEEEEJ

True, TJ - I'd see that as coming under the heading of Tank's depressed-Clark courting suicide without actually deliberately trying to end his life. I could find the kind of scenario Tank posits credible, if Alt-Clark had sufficient motivation for it.

But actual deliberate intent? I've thought about this a lot since last night and, while I originally said that I'd keep an open mind and let an author try to convince me, I don't think it would work for me. As Ursie said, Clarks of any universe have far too much respect for life to commit suicide intentionally.


Wendy

Two things: I don't know what HEA is, so would be grateful if someone could enlighten me.

Second: I wouldn't rule out the possibility of Alt-Clark being able to kill himself. True, I think he's more likely to neglect himself take more risks than he is to actively try to take his own life, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility.

If it were our Clark then I would say that no, he wouldn't think about it, and I'd have a hard time accepting the possibility. However, the two incarnations are actually very different; although they have the same core material to work with, their pasts and their presents have helped to shape their personalities.

Chris

I think it's happily ever after.

As for Alt-Clark being able to kill himself, I stand by what I said last night on IRC. This is *alt* Clark, not *our* Clark. He's had an unhappy life. His parens died right in front of him. Lana. Lois came, ruined his life, and then left him. He isn't necessarily the same Clark Kent as the Clark Kent we know and love. It's a nature vs. nurture thing here, and in this case, I would believe that nurture could win out. I think that is where i make my distinction. This Clark is completely different from the Clark on the show. We only got to meet Alt Clark twice, and didn't really get to know him all that well. I don't think i would have any problem with that premise. I also might not have had as much trouble as I did with a story like Butterfly Legacy if it had been alt Clark rather than our Clark for similar reasons.

Now, as to whether I would read teh story or not, I would have to say a resounding "absolutely not"! I don't like stories about death in any form. Not in movies not on TV not in stories. There is far too much death in the real world -- I don't need to spend my leisure time thinking about it! Give my happiness and sappy, waffy stories with lots of kissing any day!

- Laura

Well, I consider myself something of an expert on the matter of altClark and misery.

I voted that I'd read it with an open mind (can't remember the exact wording) because that's how I always try to approach a new story: I'm willing to be persuaded by the author, so long as he or she can make the premise work for me. However, that said, I don't actually believe that the altClark we saw in the series would commit suicide. My impression of him, despite his chequered background, was of a basically stable, well-grounded personality. Of course, that might have been partly Dean Cain's reluctance to portray his character with unmacho weaknesses. Even so, I can't think of a circumstance that would make him kill himself. If he thought he'd done wrong, for example, his response would be to stay alive in order to do penance. I, of course, made him a drug addict, but even I thought that was stretching things to the extreme limits of what I could get away with. His despair was overwhelming, but I just couldn't see him letting it consume him to the point where he'd want to stop living altogether. Even at his lowest, he knew he was doing wrong; he was ashamed to the point where he actually pretended it was someone else who was taking the drugs. Rather than commit suicide, therefore, I think the next step he could have taken would be to develop another personality. 'Bad Clark' would take the drugs, and 'Good Clark' would stand aside in abject disapproval. But all the time, the knowledge that taking his own life was just plain wrong at the most basic of levels would stop him from taking that final step.

However. I'm happy to be persuaded that I'm wrong.

Oh, and deathfics? Not keen; I much prefer a happy ending, but if you can give me some hope while killing off my favourite alien, I might just survive.

Yvonne

Yes, Happy Ever After.

I was temporarily blindsided earlier, trying to figure it out from CC's post, because I spent quite a bit of time trying to fit the H into 'hurt' and the A into 'angst' and then couldn't work out what the E was for.

'excruciating?'

That says something significant and deep about me, I'm sure.

LabRat

PS: I just thought of a possible circumstance in which he might (and I believe it comes courtesy of one of Wendy's fics). What if he knew he was going to die and there was a danger that if, for whatever reason, he let nature take its natural course, nefarious people would get hold of his body and use it for criminal activities? Might he elect to kill himself if he knew that by doing so, he could prevent his body getting into the wrong hands?

Yvonne

My one thought on this is helping people gives even the most depressed altClark a reason to live.

However, my brain just argued back, would he kill himself if something drastic goes wrong with a rescue, though? If that's the only reason he has to live...after all, we've seen how afffected Clark can be, where Lois usually has to pull him back onto his feet. And altClark has no Lois...

Maybe. But I suppose I see him turning to drugs before suicide. I'd have to think about it some more.

Conversations With JD's Brain.

Actually, Yvonne's scenario would come under the heading of the 'greater good for others' and as such Clark/Superman would be willing to sacrifice his life to 'save' whomever might be hurt by 'bad guys' having his body for experimentation. Their might be a factor of desparation in it, but it would also have a noble component.

The real problem comes from our board conventions. Any serious wham, or death has little impact, or dramatic value, if it's known a head of time. But in deference to the probable majority of gentle readers who don't want to read deathfic, or unhappy endings, we have adopted a practice of putting warnings on those fics that might contain such subject matter.

I can totally understand someone not wanting to 'get into' a story then have his/her enjoyment trashed by having someone die, or worse. The unfortunate consequence is that without the 'will he or won't he' dynamic the story impact is blunted.

From what I understand, we have one of the most respectful, and congenial, fanfiction fandoms here. So, if that comes with some extra restrictions and responsiblilities to the gentle readers, then it does. As writers we have chosen to abide by those conventions in order to get the readership we desire. After all, it's all about the feedback... right?

Tank (who doesn't see any advantage to kill off altClark because there is still no Lois for him)

Even though I said I wasn't posting and will be a lurker, but can't help expressing my thought on this.


My alternate clark in one of my stories did.

What about if he cannot control it, like my serum 7 drug?

At least we can't blame Yvonne for that one! <G>

CC Aiken, I'm getting the urge to double dare you to turn this story of mine around by sending it to you but maybe wont.


The story is not posted like the other " Fountain of Youth " fic that I've mention in Queen of Capes' challange .

My answer was other.


I think that if he cant kill himself he can at least let Lex do it for him. He likes doing favors to old friends.


MDL.

Like Tank said, that would be more of a sacrifice than suicide. And just the dumb, noble thing any Clark would be inclined to do. But that's very different from just 'rolling over and giving up'.

LabRat, I've been thinking about Clark using Kryptonite: but I have a hard time seeing Clark actively searching for a piece of space rubble (maybe robbing StarLabs), then lie beside the thing and experience a very slow, painful dead! I'm thinking about Luthor's green cage in HOL here: that was a lot of K! Imagine how long it would take Clark to finally die, using just one chunk.

Wouldn't there be a moment when he'd think: what am I doing?? A person might be depressed and wanting to end his life, but wouldn't he want to do it quickly ?

Ursie

Other.

Happy endings are so 5 minutes ago.

Note to self: Speak to Mel.

Edit: Ok, so after reading the thread I decided to edit...

I think Alt-Clark is definately capable of killing himself, as is anyone under the right (or wrong, if you want to see it that way) stressors.

It may be hard to imagine him doing so, but isn't that what everybody who knows a suicide victim says? That they never thought the person could or would kill themselves?

As mentioned earlier, Alt-Clark is definately not "our Clark".
He didn't have a stable home life growing up as "our Clark" did, he doesn't have a supportive family or friends like "our Clark" does, he doesn't have the luxury of being anonymous like "our Clark" does, and he doesn't have the promise of a better future.

Certainly, he's basically good, but without the supporting network "our Clark" has, I think it's extremely plausible that he might crack under pressure.
Without the hope of a better future and with nothing to live for, I think it's more than plausible, and I think it's pretty brave for an author to consider a difficult topic matter (< BTW, that counts as sucking up )

Tank, I've always wondered why we do this. After all, don't most people just do what I do? If a fic starts to get a little 'iffy', flip to the last page. If Lois and Clark are together at the end, continue reading. If not, drop it like a hot potato

ML

Edit: Oh, just realized that if it's posted on these boards first, it's not possible to do that. Oops

Still think your idea has merit, ML, and personally I agree with it. If the story as posted on the mbs gets into an area that doesn't suit your individual reading tastes, then stop reading. If you're really, desperately keen to know how it turned out, you can always catch up with it later, on the Archive, or here on the mbs once it's had its last segment posted.

Really, I don't mind either way about warnings. I feel it's up to the author to decide whether to use one or not. Where I would object is if authors are told that it's a necessary thing, a requirement, and not up to individual choice.

But I don't think that's the case here on the mbs. Is it? (My free time is such these days that it's not often I venture into the fanfic folder at all now, so no idea really if things have changed. But I don't think there's a rule or expectation along those lines. That I know of, anyway. And that's just the way it should be, imo.)

LabRat

My alternate clark had it worse.

Well, my impression is that it's expected, or at least, keenly desired. Otherwise, one tends to get comments along the lines that it would have been thoughtful of the author to post some sort of warning.

Personally, I neither need nor want warnings, and don't like posting them at the top of my own stories. However, as Tank has said, it's a small price to pay for the largely harmonious atmosphere we enjoy on these boards.

Yvonne

I liked Tank's solution of posting a story warning in a separate thread (which I linked to from the ToC for him) when he started to post Serial Vengeance. That offered the warning for any reader who preferred to have it, while at the same time not giving spoilers to other readers apart from the fact that there was a WHAM warning of some sort in effect.

I wonder, though... you know we have the Tank Ending warning thread? How about a story WHAM warning thread, instead of the warning being at the top of the story? I know this wouldn't help for Archive purposes, but would it be useful, or would readers simply forget to check the thread?


Wendy

Gets my vote, Wendy!

Yvonne