Lois & Clark Forums Forums General Discussion Fun with Polls Reading and Nominating :)

/me, who had begun to relax, now runs around in panicked little circles and goes hunting for her pin...


LabRat

I'm sorry, Carol, but I don't recall that particular discussion. I do recall, however, the discussion Roger has mentioned.

But I think Carol has made an excellent point about judging a story without having read it. I know for a fact that she did not read BL, however she has clearly formed an opinion about it based on what she interpreted from the MB comments. That could be one of the worst situations for a story, IMO. Non-readers who do frequent the feedback sections and formulate opinions based on information given out of context of the big picture, the story as a whole. Too, it seems like a good bit of hearsay to comment on a story - or rather, comment on the comments of a story - when you haven't read it yourself. It would be like me telling everyone that a story is really horrible based on the negative feedback of a few people without having read the story myself to know if I even agree with that negative feedback.

And this works the same in reverse - which might lead to a reader believing a story they hadn't read to be wonderful simply because the feedback was wonderful. I would never recommend a story I had not read except to say that I had enjoyed the writer's past efforts.

If you've read a story and have legitimate complaints or glowing applause, you have every right to air those - to stop reading or to nominate the story for as many awards as it can qualify for. If you've not read the story, it seems prudent to remain silent in either direction.

It is completely impossible to formulate an honest opinion about something if you have not read it yourself. Therefore the prospect of nomming a story you've never read, even if it is by a writer who you generally enjoy and respect, is unfair to everyone.

Lynn

Yes, I think you just put into words my feelings on this one, Pam. And so succinctly too! <g>

I kind of feel if I think a story is well written and deserving of an award, it would be a shame not to register my appreciation of it. Regardless of what else I read or don't read.

And the point about the difference between nominating and voting is well made. I agree. I think that does make a difference. At least to the way I approach the Kerths.


LabRat

I think Lynn's right, Carol - I don't remember any discussion of Clark's characterisation in BL either. At least, not on these boards. Though I could be wrong; it was almost a year ago. I do, however, vaguely remember there being a discussion elsewhere, mainly among people who hadn't read the story and seemed to be making assumptions about it from things they'd 'heard'. Dangerous, that.

But you're right that this isn't the subject of the thread. Glad to see so many people wanting to nominate all the great stories out there this year!


Wendy

I'll read as many as I can. I promise I won't nominate any stories. I'll just vote when the time comes.Unless you all prefer me not to vote at all.

I'm sorry for all the pain I caused everyone.

I’ve usually read at least 95% of the eligible stories each year. And I have either read the beginning or skimmed the other 5%. So nominating isn’t a problem! I keep a list of stories I like, and find the quizzes really helpful for refreshing my memory.

I believe it shouldn’t matter how many stories you have read. If you think a story is worthy of nomination go for it. The more nominations there are, the more balanced the results should be.

I agree voting is an entirely different matter. To vote in a category you need to have read all the nominations in that particular category. It’s comparing the stories to each other.

I would never nominate a story I haven’t read. Who the author is or what other readers think is not a fair basis for forming an opinion. I would never give feedback or enter into a debate about a story I haven’t read.

Tricia

Felt I had to reply to both Lynn's and Wendy's posts. My apologies to everyone for hijacking the poll thread somewhat here - but I have to leave town this morning and, although I'd rather deal with this privately, there simply is not the time.

So:
Here's what I wrote a few posts back in this thread in response to Roger's post: << was also some discussion on the mbs about the characterization of Clark Kent in that story>>

To which Lynn replied,
<<I'm sorry, Carol, but I don't recall that particular discussion.>>
and also:
<<I know for a fact that she did not read BL, however she has clearly formed an opinion about it based on what she interpreted from the MB comments.>>
and also: <<it seems like a good bit of hearsay to comment on a story - or rather, comment on the comments of a story>>

and Wendy added:
<< think Lynn's right, Carol - I don't remember any discussion of Clark's characterisation in BL either. At least, not on these boards. Though I could be wrong; it was almost a year ago. I do, however, vaguely remember there being a discussion elsewhere, mainly among people who hadn't read the story and seemed to be making assumptions about it from things they'd 'heard'. Dangerous, that.>>

Anyway, having been censured here I did want to speak in my defense:

<< I know for a fact that she did not read BL>>
I sent Lynn two private e-mails about BL, one after the first installment I think, stating how much I admired her writing skill (which I do!!) and then one much later, in March of last year, explaining that while I very much liked many things about the story, I had difficulty with a couple of aspects and so wouldn't continue reading it at that point. Posted in the mbs feedback folder too about that time. So, as far as Lynn was aware I had read over half the story which is not quite the same as not having read it. In fact, I did read the rest as it was being posted on the mbs - curiosity and hope, I thinkJ, but Lynn, of course, had no way of knowing that I did so.

Sad to know that both Lynn and Wendy think I'd succumb so easily (and unethically) to hearsay, and that I let others shape my opinions. Must become more outspoken in the future - I'm not weak-minded, really.J

Now about the existence of a discussion on characterization in the feedback folders while the story was being posted: I did some checking.

The mbs feedback folders (most of the comments are in the nfic folders) cover a range of topics - writing style, plot, and character development as you find in the feedback comments for most longer stories. Quite a bit of Lois bashing, too, in order to justify Clark's behaviour.

Below are some excerpts that speak to Clark Kent's characterization from those feedback folders - I've included only a few because I don't want to abuse bandwidth more than I'm already doing. A couple of caveats - I've only taken excerpts up to part 13, and also I've omitted the names of the posters because I haven't got their permission to use their quotes. But I've included a range of quotes because I did want to show that there had, in fact, been a discussion, that is a range of opinions posted at the time and from different commenters.

I should add that these quotes probably contain a spoiler or two.

<<<<Clark's enchantment with the village also seems a bit off to me. He's traveled worldwide and he's surely been in similar spots before.>>

<< I was glad to see that he's finally realized that it's selfish of him to stick to just one small village when he could do so much more.>>

<<"Sam" hasn't exactly been straight with Gillian. She doesn't know "Clark Kent".>>

<<I am a sucker for anything 'it's hard to be Super,' so love this insight into how this place has made him normal, what he's always wanted, and what he needs in wake of Lois' crushing 'the ordinary man.'>>

<<It seems that Clark is exhibiting rebound tendencies.>>

<<Even though on the surface Clark seems content to be with the villagers, I can almost sense a tension inside him pushing him to get back to his life.>>

<<I have to admit, that Clark/Sam makes me want to shake him for his own stubbornness,>>

<< like your characterizations a lot, and I really like Gillian.>>

<<But the fact that he doesn't seem to care about anyone else anymore. Right now he is just being a coward, running away and hiding from his problems.

He wasn't the only one to suffer loss. And as someone said before, Luthor might still be out there hurting people, Jack is in prision, Jimmy who knows. The real Clark would be more concern[ed] about his friends, and this Clark isn't.>>

<<Personally, I think what's happening in this story is perfectly within character and a very credible version of what could have happened at this point in Clark's life. His habit, until arriving in Metropolis about a year ago, was to roam the world and move on whenever things became a little tricky for him.>>

So the forgotten discussion of characterization on these mbs, then.

Respectfully

CC Malo

Yes, Carol, it is true that over the course of the 20-plus part story people did on occasion express agreement and disagreement with some of the actions and feelings expressed by various characters. I guess I just never put them all together to get that there was some "discussion" on Clark's characterization, which IMO implies that characterization might have been a major problem in the story. If there is/had been a major problem in this area, I certainly would have wanted to fix it as I feel spot-on characterization is critical to good fanfic.

Since you have read the story (information that is new to me since at last e-mail you had chosen to forgo it), you certainly have every right to comment on anything you see as problematic. I would prefer, however, that you do so either via private e-mail or in the feedback folder where it can be placed in the appropriate context.

I apologize to everyone for letting this topic get so far off center.

Lynn

Excellent point!

1) Other 2) Other.

I'm voting right now and, in order to make sure I'll be giving fair chances to every story, I'm voting only on the categories where I had read the majority (if not all) of the eligible stories (Super Short, Short, Comedy) plus I put in a couple I liked in Mid-Length, Holiday/Special Occasion and Relationship.

There were stories I liked in other categories, too, but I don't feel I've read a good percentage of them in order to vote.

I had this thought just a minute ago.
My lame attempt to answer is, "because if I'd read the other stories I might have liked them more"...
But you're giving me food for thought now, Pam, and that's not good, because I have Physics homework to do!! I'll have to consider it... next year.
In the meantime, I'll quote Yvonne, and I'll enjoy the Kerths the best I can. They're, after all, only once a year!!

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

I have to agree with several of you in saying that I think it's not right to nominate a story you haven't read. I also think that you should nominate really good stories you have read, even if you haven't read everything. Personally, I think people should try to read at least half the stories in a particular area, or skim the first few paragraphs to see if the writing seems to be intriguing enough to continue, if they have time limitations. But then, I'm a speedreader--noticed you said you read fast too, Wendy (wonder how fast we both go? lol)--and so when I discovered several days into it that nominations were open, I didn't think anything of my proclamation to read all 200 fics by the next week. Hehe, I was in for it! The reading took awhile, and I had to sit and summarize and rate each one so I knew exactly how I felt it should stand.
Now, I was able to shorten my reading process by throwing out the worst. There were a few (thankfully I don't even remember which) that I knew immediately would never be nominated; their writing was simply not good enough. But on my rating scale, they were all 1s, and I even summarized the 2s onward (mostly because I wanted to read 'em anyways). If I had had less time, I would have probably thrown out all the 2s and 2-3s and only rated and summarized the really good fics, though that would have been harder to do. For me, the higher the rating, the more difficult to distinguish at a glance. I rated some stories 1s for poor writing--overly simplistic, etc. (the type a child would write) Distinguishing the 1s was an easy process--the lack of quality showed up within a few paragraphs, and I quickly turned from the fic to more important reading. The 2s were that because though they had decent writing, it was nothing special; the plotlines weren't the greatest. In other words, they were decent reading but not award-worthy. They were harder to distinguish from the 3s than the 1s were from the 2s, because the main difference between them and the 3s were the plotlines, a little passage here and there that was touching, etc., though the writing quality factored in some. I would have had to skim the whole thing (or do a first/middle/last skim), or else read the first dozen paragraphs intensely, to be able to decide quickly on those, and that's not easy. 3s and 4s were even harder--the 4s were the ones that left me breathless when I finished--in other words, I had to read the whole thing anyways. And I nominated quite a few 3-4s, stories with really good writing and plotlines, that didn't call to me emotionally the way the 4s did (but that didn't make them less well-written, I thought). So anyways, though it is possible to skim the beginning and know which ones to read or not, those who toss out more than I did must have more clear-cut guidelines, lol. But then, maybe I just question myself a lot. (The idea of keeping track of a list of stories you WON'T nominate is an interesting idea--wouldn't it be more helpful to keep track of the ones you'd consider nominating? To each his or her own, I guess, lol.)
Also, I think that if someone doesn't have much time, maybe focusing on a certain size category would be better--lol, like all the super-shorts and shorts. Or maybe ONLY long ones, and trying to get through 'em all (there were a good 20-some, I think, don't have my file open right now to check). But then it doesn't take care of categories like Best Original/Supporting Character and Best Elseworlds/AU (though it would help with the Comedy, Drama, WAFFy, and short vs. long episode adaptation or revelation fics). I don't know, lol, I'm glad I had the time for all of it!
(Uh-oh, this is definitely not postcard size . . . *looks worried* I have to admit it--I ramble--you should hear me in person!)

Wow !


c

Uh... just a cent here.

I have gone through a few discussions about why writers with a 'reputation' have better chances of getting nominations, kerths or even more feedback than new/other authors.

Indirectly, if people don't read new/other author's stories with the same enthusiasm, this will result in some kind of protection eventhough we think this shouldn't or don't exist.

Well, the truth is it does exist, in my point of view. And what I have recently realized is that the priviledged authors do not have anything to do with that except for the fact that they are really talented and deserve what they get.

I can talk for myself here when I recently told my friends from mIRC I was a little bit sad I wasn't nominated for new author or that none of my MLTVs were nominated at all. But things happen and eventhough being - let me check Wendy's words - the most prolific one, sometimes it doesnt mean the quality of the work is worthy a prize.

What I learned from this? What I told my mIRC friends: Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. This year I lost nominations, but what I won was better than these - The friends I made here on the boards.

Thus, to finish, I must say I agree with Yvonne when she says she prefers to do it imperfectly than not to do it at all.

So congrats for the talented ones among us who have entertained FoLCs along the year. You are all winners to be there already.

Good luck to all. Especially for my new authors friends. May you all stick to the boards, feeling encouraged to do the wonderful job you already do.

MDL. (aka Erica Dias )

A complete ditto!

As great as a Kerth nom can be, there are so many other benefits to reap than just an icon next to your story title.

Unfortunately for myself, I haven't been able to cement many regular friendships here with my schedule being as it is, but I just love being here because there are so many great people. I personally am happy with the stories I've written, and I love reading everything that everyone else has written, too, Kerth or no Kerth.

Congrats and good luck to everyone! I'm hoping I can pop in for at least a piece of the ceremony.

Jen