Lois & Clark Forums Forums General Discussion Fun with Polls How did the Clark/Superman revelation affect your attitude towards the show?

Most people write fics centered around revelation stories. I personally avoid them. It (the hidden identity) is one of the most central aspects of the show but also one of its most centric in the relationship between characters.

For me, it's also the most dynamic to write in. The most human evoking, which for me, lies the magic of the show.

The Clark personna changes into a Clark/Superman personna in regards to the relationship with Lois. This can either be a positive or a negative effect in regards to the whole show.

Starting off the third season the way they did (they had two takes, one for a simple 'yes' and the other, which they ran), it dynamically changed the whole aspect of the show.

Moving forward, I think it was a good move for the show but looking back, I think they should have given the relationship more room to develop (for us the viewers). They should have waited.

My goodness, if I could only roll back all the frogs.

In the long term, the show began to suffer more and more (ratings) and we got more and more outrageous plots. With some minor exceptions, of course.


The show suffered another infamous ratings plunge throughout the middle of the second season, when ABC honchos changed the focus of the show to 'action'.

I also personally hated the "vignette" type Tempus episode in the middle of the end in season two as an obvious attempt at testing the water, and thus robbing us of another hour of "real" drama.

It's common knowledge writers jumped ship in favour of the ratings heap. (ABC is famous for killing its top shows in the most gut busting fashions.)

(If the show had been axed in its first season, they would have been married.) Instead they put us through the relationship carousel all over again in season two.

So, what do you think?

How did the revelation impact your perception of the show, particularly the first and second seasons. (In which lies most of its base content.)

Well, I went for "it shocked me" -- but for me, it was also a very good thing. The test-revelation in Tempus Fugitive is the thing that really riveted my attention on the show; I'd only seen a few episodes before then, and had mentally written it off as 'same old, same old' -- including a revelation suddenly made it seem very new and exciting.

There were certainly episodes in third and fourth season that I cringe just thinking about <g> but then, there are for first and second, too (has anyone ever written anything inspired by Ides of Metropolis?). And without a revelation in third season, I really doubt I'd have kept on watching. I have a low tolerance for prolonged "they're getting closer, they're closer, almost there... psyche! back to square one"

But that's just me

PJ

No, they even went as far as having a teeny bop magazine layout of "the wedding". Now that's evil.

Along with an article on Dean Cain. Anyone remember that issue (he was on the cover in a wet shirt).



Not to mention the countless specials on ET.

The Ides of Metropolis.

Ah, those were the days. lol

Quite a lot of things for discussion in your preamble, Dundan.

I think you're right about the hidden identity being a key dynamic in the first couple of seasons. But given that in the comics universe, Lois did know CK=S and that they were engaged, it didn't seem shocking that Lois would find out ... the question was 'when' and 'how'.

I'm not much of fan of the old Chris Reeves Sueprman movies (except for the first one) partly because they kept Lois out of the secret. What that means then is that she comes off looking a tad less than bright because she hasn't figured it out (not a good image for an ward winning *investigative* reporter <g>) . Not to mention, that CK/S comes across as secretive and patronizing, a guy playing mind-games on his so called best friend. Given that he knows she has a crush on Superman, he comes across as a bit sadistic. So Lois being kept out of the loop after a certain amount of time doesn't work for me becuase of what it implies about both characters.

But you're spot on about the series rushing the relationship. as Perry said in one episode, why don't you try dating first? <g>
And I couldn't agree more with your anti-frog stance!

I do agree with you that the writing took a turn for the worse after season 1 & 2, although there are a few notable excpetions to that.

Love Tempus!! (irony yes! frogs no!) but i do see your argument about that ep ... it did give any the store so to speak. But have to say at that point I was about to jump ship (apologize for mixed metaphor:) ) but stayed becuase of the promise implied by that ep.

I tried to do your poll, but wasn't sure what you mean by this:
What do you mean 'we were just over Superman'?

can you tell it's raining here?

c.

It's my first poll, go easy on me. lol

Ok, was it 2 episodes instead? I should have said that, maybe that makes it more clear.

For those people that actually wanted to see Lois and Clark in a relationship after the funny-go-around they tossed us the first seasons.

Oh yes, and thank you for the frog stance!

*tries to edit*

Let's just say "two episodes" ago.

Entertainment Weekly. Later when I have time, I can look up the week and year... if you want. Is it wrong that I have two copies of that still?

Sara (who might come back and comment on the actual poll when she has time )

I kind of wish they'd had a longer dating relationship before Lois found out, and maybe Clark could have held off his proposal for a while longer.

That's all I got but it's a good poll.

TEEEEEEEJ

I'd love to vote, but I just can't bring myself to tick the one which fits my feelings most closely because it adds a rider which is diametrically opposed to my opinion:

I had no problem with the relationship in the first two seasons. The thing is, I'm just not that judgemental of *any* aspect of the series. I accepted what I was given and just sat back and enjoyed it. There were sillinesses along the way which made me cringe (most of Soul Mates, for example), but there was always enough in every episode to make me enjoy it. It was just a question of *how much* I enjoyed each episode.

For a 45 minute family show based on a cartoon character with obligatory action sequences and wacky monsters, I think we were treated to an extraordinarily high level of relationship development and quality characterisation. Yes, a lot of it was fairly shallow, but I don't think you could expect much more, given the parameters the producers were working within.

Fanfic, however, gives us an ideal opportunity to expand and explore those relationships in more depth. Hooray for fanfic! <g>

Yvonne

I want to say I do love the shows and have all the episodes on tape and watch them often. I also can't wait for it to come out on DVD and plan to buy all the seasons if they become available.

Many of you will probably feel that I'm too critical but there are certain paths that they followed in the show I have always hated or felt were just to trite and beneath our beloved characters. I guess that is why I'm even a bigger fan of the FanFiction. Even though I might not care for certain stories or even like plot line, a lot of thought and effort has been put into the stories by all the authors who post on all the FanFiction sites. I love the FanFiction so much that I have downloaded from all the site over 2400 stories and I'm in the processing of checking for any I might have missed and have them all stored on a large Zip disk and burned to a CD as back up.

That being said here are my complaints and I apologize in advance to those I might offend.

1) Bring Tempus back for more than two episodes -his first episode and the episode in the Alt universe. They should have only had him in those 2. Tempus as a general character I didn't care for or the premise. It was just to farfetched to me that you could have the jerk screwing with the Time Lines and not have a major long lasting catastrophic distortion.

2) That they waited so long to have Lois figure out the secret. She wasn't stupid for goodness sake. Also I had a problem with Clark being so hung up on her having to love him first. He should have been smart enough to figure out she need to know all of him for the relationship to ultimately work. Also he knew her well enough to know that she would be angry when she found out. But they keep having him deceive her and act like an idiot. Like in the Whine, Whine, Whine episode. I mean everyone else could tell that Martha was trying to get him to figure out it was time that he told Lois but he just sits there stupid.

3) Then you have 10 episodes 1) The Phoenix - where Clark asks her for a date and ending with 10) And The Answer Is - where Clark proposes and the revelation. And only 7 episodes that actually run from the first date through the proposal. It was like they decided We have screwed around for over 2 seasons on whether or not they will have a relationship and the viewers are getting pissed so wham they will and we'll marry them off. I felt that Lois should have know the secret before they started dating and that they should have been dating for a whole season. There was so much that could have been done with that to the delight of the viewers.

As I have said before I was terribly disappointed with the whole way they handled the relationship. After the Luthor fiasco in season one we spend over a whole season with limp flirting. Continue it into another season and then out of the blue try to change it. To me I find as with a lot of shows they get an idea but don't really map out what they plan to do. And if they do then the idiots go and air the episodes out of sequence.

I dislike the wedding triology where Luthor is brought back to screw up the first wedding. It seemed like an ill calculated way to try and fix the fact that they weren't really putting the effort into producing a well thought out and written show. They then compounded it by screwing with Lois' and Clark's second wedding. Like many shows they tried falling back on the outrageous and trite to pull in viewers.

I am a big fan of the show even though I find many faults with it. They had a good product but when it wasn't pulling in the viwers instead of really putting an effort into trying to figure out why it wasn't working they quit on it. By that I mean that they didn't put in the effort to try to skilfully fix it and to try and lure the viewers in. They could have easily done this by giving us good story lines and then hints as to how the plot line was going to flow so the viewers interest was teased. They just got unbelievable and outrageous and hoped for the best.

I agree they rushed the relationship. It seemed like one minute Lois was dumping Dan and the next Clark was on his knees proposing. If Clark had told her rather than Lois having to figure it out he would have demonstrated a high level of confidence in her and respect for her feelings but it was definitely time for her to know. The way Clark hid the secret from Lois in Season 2 made him look sneaky and her look clueless . I could understand why she got involved with someone else (although I thought the guy playing Dan had the sex appeal of a halibut) because Clark's actions made him look like someone she couldn't trust.

Conversely, once she knew the secret, he had an ally (sp) and after she got over her anger and shock 'their' secret brought them closer together. I got a feeling that when it came to the secret of his identity they had a united 'You and Me Against the World' mentality.

ROFLMAO!!! That just cracked me up, Ethnica!

And I agree 100% with this:
Wendy

A lot of good points have been brought up here. A lot of people seem to be in agreement that the actual relationship part should have lasted more before the "proposal", whether Lois would be on the secret or not.

As for her not knowing the secret, it doesn't make her look dumb in my opinion. Yes, the comic book world was well past that stage, but if you look into the old issues, you get the exact magic that you see in the first few episodes of the show. I think that only says a lot about the unique premise of Lois and Clark. For its time, it was the only thing like it on TV, and I still don't find its equal.

The only other emergence of its chemistry factor in other media was perhaps in the original Superman movies, although you'd have to read a lot into them these days. With Clark being portrayed as a total lunkhead and all. I think once the modern Clark Kent, portrayed by Dean Cain came along (which is also much closer to the comics, at least from what I remember), it just boomed the whole premise.

Which is why I also didn't expect a revelation to come up in any story that I was foreseeing in the show. I also knew that the writers weren't blind, or at least they didn't seem to be for the first few seasons , and would milk the cow for all it was worth.

The very extreme curve of development of the relationship in the show cannot be overstated enough due to ratings. When Lois and Clark was in trouble in its first season and mid-way in its second, the writing always attempted to change direction. (somewhat in leaps and bounds)

That change of direction for hoopla and ratings boost is ultimately what doomed it post revelation, in my opinion. (*Has a brief frog seizure*)

By the end of the second season, ABC had a certified Golden Goose in its prime time line up, because of the relationship factor. A lot of people who had previously never seen Lois and Clark were tuning in more. Which is why it further shocked me that they didn't follow their usual first and second season trend, at least up to mid-way through 3rd season.

Oh yes, and don't count the Imp from the Fifth Dimension. (*has a recurring frog seizure*)

As well, from the relationship point of view, Lois was always suppressing thinking of Clark as any more than the eyes would seem, and sometimes even less, while throwing herself at Superman.
That posed a gold mine for the writers, which they shouldn't have tapped as early as they did.

It is also explainable through to Lois' past relationship disasters and clinging to the fantasy of a "super"-man, in more than one sense. As well, no one knew that Superman had a secret identity, that he was raised on Earth. Only Lex figured that out in the globe episode.

Sadly, the writers did nothing with that potential lead up.

As well, the rest of the supporting cast didn't figure out the secret, which would make them equally dumb.

I think, overall it was accurately played out. Clark did have the advantage of a few decades of playing out his lie.

You evil, evil Sara.

Yes, it's wrong, and completely evil. You should seek help. You have two copies, you say? Do drop by on Sunday evenings when I schedule my regular Lois and Clark withdrawal meetings.

But yes, that's the one. Entertainment Weekly. I used to hoard *a* copy, lol.

I also used to hoard TV guides, but that's another story, or another poll.

Really, the only reason I was looking for the proposal is simply because I didn't like the fact that Clark had to lie to her all the time. It really frustrated me in the relationship category because everytime they looked like they would get closer, it would be two steps back because Clark had a ridiculous excuse.

I agree with many points brought up here, and although I wasn't able to vote because none of the options suited me (Dundan - next time remember to put an "other" option ) I'm still giving my two cents worth.

Totally agree that the relationship was rushed. They jumped from Lois realizing that Clark wasn't so bad after all to a marriage proposal. They had at least one entire season's worth of dating/relationship building that they totally missed the boat on, IMO.

As for the revelation, if Lois would have been kept in the dark for much longer than the two seasons:
1 - she would have looked really stupid
2 - Clark's excuses would have grown beyond lame, adding to Lois's looking stupid when she still didn't figure it out
3 - I would have grown supremely frustrated, to the point of I can't take this any more
4 - They would have had a really hard time of convincing me that Lois could ever forgive Clark for keeping this from her for so long (assuming that show time = real time and they'd known each other for two, three, four years before he told her)
5 - They would have had a really hard time of convincing me of a good enough reason for Clark to continue keeping his secret, especially if they had allowed their relationship to grow into something romantic.

Actually, that would have been ideal, IMO. Season 1 the enemies into friends season. Season 2 the friends into a romantic relationship, ending with a revelation. Season 3 a can-we-make-this-work? as LnC try to overcome the obstacle involved in dating when one of them is a superhero. Season 4 moving into something really serious, ending with the wedding (no Argh thank you very much!) and Season 5, the newlywed year.

Lynn

I am with Yvonne. Although, if I had to choose, I wouldn't have chosen a revelation like this. Maybe Lois could know for a while, and torture him...? Or he could tell her just out of the blue...?

Whatever. What's done is done. And it wasn't bad after all! (If it was, I would have stopped watching... obviously.)

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

I agree completely.

I've been re-watching the first episodes lately and it seems to me that Lois, nor any of the other characters, took a real good look at either Clark/Superman guise beyond the superficial at first.

As was pointed out in the Pilot, and quoted in numerous fanfics, 'They wont be looking at your face'. They look, but do not see.

The way I reason, once Lois, or any other supporting character for that matter, realized that they were worth the effort to look beyond the exterior, or heck, studied their face, both Superman and Clark were established as two separate individuals. It was a "fact" of life, the sky is blue, sugar is sweet, daytime Tv will rot your brain, Clark and Superman are two different and distinct people. Any similarities they shared could have been passed off as just one of those things.

Clark is Clark, Superman is Superman, and hey what do you know, they've got some things in common, but that doesn't mean they're the same person. That's just crazy, after all, you've known them both for ages.

--

As for the revelation - I think it could have been handled better, but by this stage I was fairly disillusioned with the show, and by season 4 I was completely disillusioned. The character development IMO occurred in a backwards trend, they started out with more depth in the first few seasons and then became more shallow as the show progressed. Take Clark - at the start of the show he's portrayed as this sweet, naive guy who wants to help, and he "develops" into a Saint who needs to help. They make his character so forgiving, so patient, so... inhuman. He goes from being a person to being a cause, I thought he was supposed to be an ordinary guy.
To Clarks character I say: 'The secret to perfection is imperfection' - Bicentennial Man.
His character is imperfect because he is too perfect.

And Lois... gees, she started off a bit dramatic, but that could be attributed to her rocky home life, she joked with her colleagues, she got along with her sister, she went out, she was normal. By mid-to-late season two she was a socially isolated melodramatic chocolate junkie teetering on the edge, who could lose it at the drop of a hat. Or maybe my perception has been influenced by fan fiction - either way, she is no longer a normal person. And I use that term relatively, after all, the male lead is a super powered alien.

If I was her doctor I'd order her to stick to a controlled diet, chocolate free. Her sugar levels must be all over the place, it's a wonder she's not slipped into a diabetic coma.
I'd monitor her hormone levels, there are a number of treatments for that nowadays.
I would definitely recommend a good anger management councilor.

I found that it was hard to relate to either Clark or Lois in the latter seasons, although Lois does calm down somewhat in Season 4, where they were easier to relate to in the earlier seasons.
Perhaps that influenced the downward slump in ratings a little. That, and the out-there stories

On the other hand, who am I to complain? I'm sitting in front of a computer terminal discussing the show years after it's cancellation. Maybe I'm being too arrogant and nit-picky to admit they did something right after all. :p

I think part of the strange development of the show, as you put it, David, was due to its premise.

(I also agree with most of the points. Lois Lane in second season suffered from the same personality withdrawal that made the insane writers go more for its 'action' aspect.)

You had a 1 hour drama/comedy/action hybrid in an 8pm drama slot, running after America's Funniest Home Videos.

Not exactly your recipe for ratings success.
Bob Saget's humour didn't exactly hold a captive audience.

Which meant that a lot of viewers didn't see what they wanted. It's really due to the fortitude of the cast that it survived enough to build up a fan base and survive the first season axe.

If you look at the original cast, they're all fantastic comedy actors:
Perry White is fantastic as Chief Editor to a modern baracuda version of Lois Lane, a man chasing Cat Grant and good for anything, used for nothing, errand boy Jimmy.

(I also incidentally, ended up liking the first Jimmy Olsen better than the "big kid" version of the second.)

I think they grew Dean Cain's character like a Chia pet: he wasn't the most experienced of the cast, which is probably why he ended up looking like a very compelling version next to Teri Hatcher's been around the block portrayal.

I agree they tuned him too perfect later on, but a lot of that was also Dean Cain's emergence as an actor. Originally his perfections could be seen as flaws, which worked very well into the overall comedy.

Right from the get go in their first pairing in the Pilot, their chemistry just jumped off the screen, but that is also because they had a great ensemble cast and outstanding original scripts.

Lois' first season dialogue was killer, for one.
And I swear I was waiting for something like Pheromone, My Lovely. First seeing that just made me drool with laughter.
Lois' impression at work was utterly killer material, and Perry White..

They also removed Cat Grant's character very early, which took out a lot of very funny interactions between her and Lois. TOGOM was the only real shot in the arm which certified the show on the basis of season one.

Their premise was already stretched enough in the above respects, never to allow even slight alterations to the formula. Basically, they just ran out of interactive ground and tried to cover up by delaying the inevitable.

Nobody would watch a newlywed show, the premise was never set up for it and they could never re-tool it.

I sure stopped watching after I figured the direction Season 4 was going couldn't be stopped.

I couldn't even watch Family Hour - it made me want to roll over from a lack of insulin. It's sad to say, but I was glad they had the sense to cancel season 5.

They ended up without a lot of the factors that made viewers want the initial relationship in the first place, which is why the revelation was the first stab in the back.

In my opinion, anyway.

^Not to sound like we're patting ourselves on the back, but, Cheers.

I can't say I agree about the "first stab in the back" comment. Not because I disagree, but because I haven't watched the series in order. I stopped watching the series early on, roughly mid-season 2, I don't think I even saw TOGOM first time around, and I've only recently returned to the fandom. Circumstances have dictated that I've seen the show in patches, so I actually saw some of Season 4 before I saw the revelation.

I was just a kid when it came out, not a day over 10, don't hold it against me

I hadn't considered the thought that it might be Cain's acting shining through the script and giving Clark the eye watering over polished look. I always assumed it had more to do with the fact that a married couple wrote a lot of the scripts.

I hope they're married, or I'm making an even bigger *** out of myself

Indeed. Cheers.

Well, just to reassure you, they do get married, but towards the end of a very slippery slope of, in perhaps Perry White fashion, blowing out your tv set.

I wouldn't spoil the wedding arc for you, but if you intend to watch it, stay away from frogs and anyone with a doctorate in front of their name. Oh yes, and gurus are bad too.

Hmm, I'm not sure if a married couple wrote a lot of the later scripts. I would have to look into it, but there have been a lot of writers.

I only superficially read through the first season guide on the topic of writers.

It would seem like a married couple would write the fourth season script anyhow. Did I mention I'm anti married writing teams peddling scripts?

Well, welcome back to the fandom and hope you enjoy yourself.

For the record, I must have been about 5 years older. Ah, if only I had the same memory now.

Ah, you wouldn't be, I've seen most of the series now. But like I said, I'd seen some of Season 4 before Season 2/3, so everything had already been spoilt for me

The Clone-arc... even knowing they eventually marry and turn into a super-duper happy couple, having seen some of Season 4 before hand, made me want to </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I saw it at the end of a rather tedious episode. No wonder :rolleyes:

Ty