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Yeah, wouldn't like for there to be a rule, I don't think. Up to the individual author. smile

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My own preference would be that there should be no rule that says an author cannot vote for him/herself or a rule that forces an abstention.

Seems the Kerths are about choosing the stories you think are best. If an author really thinks his/her story is the best, that author should vote for it. But it's a freedom of choice. If we start limiting how a person votes, beyond once per category, it becomes a skewed vote.


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Is it too late now, since many of us have voted?
Would it be an easy matter for Erin and KathyM to adjust the ballots of those nominees who have already voted?
Ack, Carol, don't scare me like that! goofy No, you're right, there's *no* way we're even gonna think about that kind of change this late in the process.

Personally, I don't think we should make any rules about this, and just let authors use their own discretion. Last time I looked at the poll results it seemed that the number of respondents who would vote in the category (whether or not they vote for themselves) even out with the ones who wouldn't. And besides that, my philosophy is to have a minimum of rules and assume most people will figure things out wink

PJ


"You told me you weren't like other men," she said, shaking her head at him when the storm of laughter had passed.
He grinned at her - a goofy, Clark Kent kind of a grin. "I have a gift for understatement."
"You can say that again," she told him.
"I have a...."
"Oh, shut up."

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Thanks for the answers - that's about what I thought people would say. wink And I agree: no rule, please. Let's all make up our own minds - hey, we're adults! goofy Thanks for satisfying my curiosity!


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I voted for option #2, although I'm not sure what I'd do. Luckily (in this POV) I haven't been found in such a situation.

I did nominate a few of my fics (the ones I really consider good), but, clearly, they were not the only ones I nominated!

OTOH, though, nominating isn't as 'heavy' as voting. If I had to choose between five stories, one being mine, there is no way I could think mine would be the best one! (At least not at this point of my writing. Later, who knows... Miracles do happen :p )

AnnaBtG. (who would find it much easier to vote for the elections last Sunday... but she's not 18 yet)


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I think everyone who hasnt' voted yet should go out and vote for Chris' stories, where ever they may be.

It has always been my own perverse pleasure to try and get the most nominations without an actual win. Chris and a few others are a definite threat to that goal. Luckily Yvonne removed herself from that category last year, so I think it's Chris' turn this year.

And anyone else who's had a few noms without a win. Let's get them their Kerths also. wink

Tank (who doesn't want to spoil his run like Susan Lucci did)

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How come no one is speaking to my proposed "Bill Henderson" rule??? <g>

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I think everyone who hasnt' voted yet should go out and vote for Chris' stories, where ever they may be.

It has always been my own perverse pleasure to try and get the most nominations without an actual win. Chris and a few others are a definite threat to that goal.
Tank! You callous saboteur, you!

Okay, the gloves are really off now. May the best person lose. wink

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Count me in as one who thinks that the less rules K-Comm imposes, the better. smile As Pam says, there are enough diverse opinions that each individual should be allowed to make his or her own choice.

It's interesting that Paul says he would never nominate his stories, but he wouldn't object to voting for one if he honestly thought it was best. My brain is wired the other way round. smile If I think one of my stories was genuinely good, I won't hesitate to include it in my lists of noms; but I can't see myself voting for a story of mine. I see the Kerths as a representation of my peers' opinions, not my own. laugh

Then again, I still seriously believe that the real Kerth winners are the nominees. Period. There are enough choices, in nominations, to be wholly honest (by this, I mean the voters' choices, not the tallying process, which is honest all the way though! laugh ). Voting, which is narrowed down to one, can't help but be influenced external factors (I voted for that author in another category, I should vote for someone else in this one; this author hasn't won yet, maybe I should vote for her). I don't mean to suggest that everyone votes like that, but I do think that a number do. Nominations are by merit alone; voting is a competition. So being a nominee, to me, is more real, and more special, than the actual Kerth.

Hazel


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If these awards were handled like most big writing contests, you not only couldn't vote for yourself, you couldn't even vote in any category in which you were a finalist. These contests aren't voted on actually, they are judged -- sometimes by editors and sometimes they are peer-judged. And you can't judge a category that you're entered in.


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Interesting, Marilyn smile I don't think it would work that well in a close-knit community like ours, where almost everyone knows almost everyone and might have or be suspected to have problems with objectivity... But then every method you could come up with has its good points and bad points. Such is life. smile

I can see how it would work well in "big writing contests" though, especially if the judges are professional editors, or at least are assumed not to know any of the authors they're judging. Not that they need my approval, of course <g> These kinds of contests have been going on for years, so I figure they know what they're doing smile

And I've just remembered -- with those big contests, don't you usually have to pay to get your story entered in the contest? Darn, I wish we'd thought of that years ago wink I could have been rich by now! goofy

PJ


"You told me you weren't like other men," she said, shaking her head at him when the storm of laughter had passed.
He grinned at her - a goofy, Clark Kent kind of a grin. "I have a gift for understatement."
"You can say that again," she told him.
"I have a...."
"Oh, shut up."

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The romance community is a tight-knit one and these contests seem to do just fine. :)Sometimes the judges are editors. Many times they are simply other published authors.

Yes you must pay an entry fee for these contests and usually provide 5 copies of your material (sometimes a full or partial manuscript, sometimes a book, and sometimes a syopsis, plus a SASE for them to return your scoresheet. These contests are often used as a fund raiser for local chapters of a national writing organization. The RITA and Golden Heart awards are national level contests (the former for published authors and the latter for unpublished) and carry quite a bit of prestige. There are also reader-judged contests. I've been a judge in two of them. You receive anywhere from 3 to 6 books, read them and fill out a score sheet. The most recent asked me to score each book on a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being "not the kind of book that appeals to me at all -- I really didn't enjoy it" and 10 being "this is the single best book I've ever read in this category."

I'm including a sample of a contest judging sheet from an author-judged contest that only wanted a synopsis and the first three chapters of your book. Some contests want the entire manuscript. Others are "first chapter" contests. Still others revolve around a love scene or first kiss scene.

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Story

--Does the story begin in the right place? The story should begin at a major turning point in the main character’s life, in a situation that demands she/he take action or make a decision. (If it doesn’t, it probably starts too soon. It probably starts too late if some information seems to be missing.)

--Does the beginning “hook” the reader? In the first few lines there should be an interesting statement, dialogue or actions, which seizes your attention and keeps you reading.

--Does the story move smoothly? The story doesn’t move too slow or too fast. It keeps your attention.

--Is there a sense of time and place? Is the mood clear? You get a clear picture of where and when the story takes place, and if it is a humorous, suspenseful, action or serious story.

--Is the POV consistent and clear? The reader identifies with, feels and sees through the POV character.

--Is the conflict strong enough to carry the plot? The hero/heroine are thrown into a situation or faces some obstacle or problem which threatens his/her happiness. In approximately three (3) chapters and synopsis there should be clear evidence of the plot.

--Is narration and dialogue balanced? There are no long passages of narrative or dialogue. Dialogue is effectively interspersed with short descriptive statements, tags or thought

--Is the dialogue natural, vital to the story? Does the reader always know who is speaking? The dialogue is important and needed. You have a clear idea of who is speaking. Dialogue isn’t stilted or formal.

--Are transitions between scenes and POV handled smoothly with no abrupt shifts? The POV switches only between scenes, or if the POV switches within the scene, it seems natural.


Characterization

--Are the hero/heroine likable despite flaws/faults? Do they seem real? Could you identify with them? Do you care what they feel?

--Do the characters have unique voices and traits? Are they consistent? The hero and heroine have distinctive traits that is shown enough to where you know either one of them from other characters in the story. The way hero/heroine speaks stays consistent.

--Are all characters easily identifiable? The reader doesn’t identify a secondary character with the hero/heroine, then find out later his/her mistake.

--Is the relationship between hero and heroine apparent and intense? Does it progress satisfactorily? You get a sense of a budding relationship that grows stronger, regardless or because of the conflict between them.

--Are the characters developed, well defined and necessary? The characters are not stereotypes. The characters are important to the story. The hero/heroin are not perfect, but they are honest, intelligent, generous, kind, etc.

--Are hero and heroine multi-dimensional and believable? Do the hero/heroine act and speak in a way that is believable to their character. Do hero/heroine have more than one side to their personality?

--Are the characters’ dialogue, emotions and actions/reactions realistically motivated? The reader understands why the characters act/react, say or feel the way they do.

--Are the hero and heroine characters you would root for? The reader wants the hero/heroine to achieve their goals, overcome their obstacle and have their happily ever after. The reader cheers for the hero/heroine.

--Are the characters’ goals identified? The reader knows what is important to the characters


General

--Is the writing fresh? The writer has a distinctive voice and conveys an interesting story.

--Do you get a vivid picture from the writing? The writer uses the five senses, shows rather than tells, uses action verbs, avoids cliches and uses a variety of writing techniques, such as descriptive phrases, similes and metaphors that enables the reader to picture the story.

--Is the writing natural, not forced? self explanatory

--Did the entry keep you reading, was it compelling? The entry is interesting. The reader doesn’t have to force himself/herself to finish reading.


Synopsis

--Does the synopsis show the story line? self explanatory

--Are the hero’s and heroine’s goals, motivations and conflicts clearly defined? The synopsis clearly shows the hero/heroine goals, motivations and conflicts; how the goals are achieved, what motivates them and how they overcome their conflicts.
Most authors I know prefer to enter contests where the scoresheet is returned so they can see what's wrong with their work. That way they can fix it.

Just food for thought. Now I'm off to... work on a contest entry. laugh


Marilyn
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I also ignore my own stories and vote for the story I liked best in that category. I was intrigued by the people (too lazy to check who, sorry wink ) who said if they judge their own story best, they vote for it. I don't "enjoy" my own stories the way I enjoy other people's - I read them wincing at awkward phrases and wondering if I should really have put that bit in there, and maybe I should have taken X's suggestion and fleshed out that...

How do people *ever* actually manage to compare their stories with other people's? goofy


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hazel said:

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It's interesting that Paul says he would never nominate his stories, but he wouldn't object to voting for one if he honestly thought it was best. My brain is wired the other way round. If I think one of my stories was genuinely good, I won't hesitate to include it in my lists of noms; but I can't see myself voting for a story of mine. I see the Kerths as a representation of my peers' opinions, not my own.

Then again, I still seriously believe that the real Kerth winners are the nominees. Period.
it is interesting. my reasoning starts off like yours. the real winners are the nominees. the reason for that is that when you nomiate, you're picking a handful of stories out of the possibly hundreds eligible for that category. it's a big deal. i couldn't possibly put one of my own among those choices. it wouldn't be right.

OTOH, voting is picking one out of 6. i read all the stories, and think about which ones i like better and which ones better suit the category. i narrow things down, i think things over, and hopefully get down to 1. it's not always easy. sometimes it's downright impossible. for me, tho, it's a lot easier to compare a few specific stories than it is to pick the top few out of a crowd.

as i do that, i try to ignore everything but the story itself and the category i'm looking at. that includes the author. can't always do that, but i try.

so, if one of my own ends up on top, then i'll go with that. if some other story looks better than mine, i'll go with that, too.

which brings me to mere's question:

Quote
How do people *ever* actually manage to compare their stories with other people's? <critically confused graemlins>
well, i've got a little trick. it's my memory. see, some things stick very well. concepts, for the most part. also numbers (my best friend's phone number from grade school, my 8th grade locker combination, the old calling card number, various ID/membership numbers, the atomic weight of sulfer, the boiling point of nitrogen...).

otoh, some things don't seem to stick at all. like names or faces (i can only remember one at a time unless i know you really well). birthdays refuse to stick. various other important details (i'd elaborate, but, well, i don't remember...).

it's a real problem when it comes to important things like kerth quizzes.

it helps, tho, when i'm doing kerth reading. it means that i'll often remember how i feel about a story, even when i remember nothing else. that can help. more importantly, tho, it means that i can (and have) reread one of my own stories and repeatedly think (in a variety of intonations) "i wrote that?" i remember surprising myself on several occaisions with "king of the green city" last year, but i have no memory of what surprised me.

so, when i review stories before voting, it can be pretty easy to review one of my own stories as if someone else entirely had written it simply because i've done that good a job of forgetting it. what also helps is that timmy writes most of my stuff, so even a day after writing it, i have no clear memory of having done so. (i remember sitting at the keys. i remember that i did write it. i just don't remember the actual process except for a few vague bits and random flashes.)

that's how it works for me, anyway.

as noted, timmy has chosen a very strange home. i think at some point some people came to visit, and a few of the ones in red shirts died in strange ways before things got sorted out. timmy says they left because there were no beautiful green-skinned women around. i don't really remember.

so, anyway, that's my reasoning for voting but not nominating, and that's how i manage to compare my stories with others. anyone else?

Paul


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