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I gave a list in my earlier post of what might be considered Mary Sue behavior in a Lois and Clark fic. The general guideline is this: If Lois and Clark are present in the fic only to show how wonderful your OC is, then you're probably in Mary Sue territory. laugh

Here are some other warning signs:

In a S1 or S2 fic: your character discovers CK=S before Lois; your character succeeds in getting Lois and Clark together despite themselves; your character figures out how to beat Lex, whether or not your character is the one who puts the plan into action.

In S3: your character get Lois and Clark back together again despite themselves; your character figures out the clone thing before Clark, or prevents the clone from switching; your character is from NK, and stops Clark from needing to go off with Zara.

In S4: your character helps Lois and Clark "make it to the church on time"; your character figures out a way for them to have children; your character handles Tempus better than Herb (okay, anyone could do that laugh ).

In any season: your character is a better reporter than LnC, or puts the clues together more quickly; your character rescues the main characters from their own stupidity or ineptitude; your character is related to any of the main characters; your character is "retconned" into playing a significant part of a main character's past; your character has a truly convoluted history, to make the character fit into the Superman mythos; one or more of the main characters are attracted to her, whether or not it remains unrequited.

I left out "Lois/Clark falls for your character," because, after all, this is Lois and Clark, and fics like that can't really fit into the genre. Unless, of course, as Zoom points out, the SO dies tragically and your character is there to comfort the bereaved one... click here and scroll down a bit for the most hilarious Mary Sue avatar I've seen in a loooong time. goofy Look at Irene's superb Superfutures series for a great example: all her characters are well-rounded and real and very, very human. (Okay, half-Kryptonian.)

As Chris says, the male equivalent exists too; these are often dark, broody types, or smart-mouthed characters who are so good at what they do that they earn the grudging respect of their elders, despite their appalling behavior. Or perhaps they have a tragic past, which explains their unhappiness... oh, wait, that works for regular Mary Sues, too. goofy

I will conclude this over-long post by quoting my own Mary Sue parody, deliberately written to include as many Mary Sue elements as possible:

Quote
Clark stared with astonishment at the beautiful young woman before him. True, she was gorgeous enough to stun anybody, but that was not the reason for his current state of stupefication. Some four inches shorter than his own height of six feet, she was actually standing eye-to-eye with him -- because her dainty, pink-varnished toes were hovering four inches off the ground.

She could fly! She had super-powers like his!

"How...?" he stammered. "I don't -- who are you?"

She smiled softly, her perfect white teeth flashing in the starlight. "I am your twin sister," she said, her musical voice piercing through his veins with an uneasy thrill.

"My twin sister?" Clark repeated. He found that he could not take his eyes off her -- her lovely blond curls that cascaded over her slim shoulders, her cerulean blue eyes that sparkled like the most pristine of seas, the ruby lips curved in a smile that cast an enchantment over any male that ever saw her. He couldn't believe what he was hearing. Even though Lois told him that he was okay-looking -- well, maybe a little more than okay-looking -- how could he possibly be the twin of the vision of perfection that stood before him? His stomach squirmed uncomfortably as he realized that his adoration for her was not even remotely brotherly.

"Yes," she affirmed. Her long, silky eyelashes fluttered momentarily, and Clark watched, entranced, as a single tear, the shape and sheen of a perfect diamond, slowly slid down the alabaster skin of her cheek. "It grieves me, Kal-El, that we have never met before."

"Why?" he asked, anguished. "Why was I never permitted to see you? And how did you arrive here on Earth?"

She lowered her eyelids for a moment, wondering what to say. She knew it would be too difficult to explain that she was really his twin sister from an alternate universe, where Lara had died in her teens and Jor-El had come to earth and married Bruce Wayne's twin sister, who had given birth to a girl rather than a boy. She understood that this strange truth was the cause of Clark's feelings of unbridled passion towards her; after all, they were not really brother and sister at all. Yet she, knowing that she was Clark's counterpart from another universe, realized how wrong it would be to requite his love. No, it would be better if he remained ignorant of the warped reality of their existence and continue to believe they were sister and brother.

"The story would be too long to tell," she demurred, her voice lowering to an octave that sent shivers down Clark's spine. "But I have come to help you in your battle for truth, justice, and better fashion sense. "

She paused for a moment, wondering if she ought to mention her amazing spiritual powers, powers that only a female Kryptonian could possess. But with her typical modesty, she decided to remain silent. Why make Clark feel insecure? She would only demonstrate her awesome abilities, so far beyond Clark's own, if circumstances demanded a deus ex machina on her part. The opportunity would most likely arise some time in the very near future, anyway.

"I will be honored to have you on my side," Clark said, humbly and huskily. "But tell me, please -- what is your name?"

"I?" Her smile once again flashed in the starlight. "I am Haz-El."
peep

Hazel, who has read some truly appalling Mary Sue Tolkien fics, and some truly hysterical parodies of such fics as well


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Hm, thanks everyone! This gives me a lot to keep in mind whenever I start writing again...in case there's a need for an OC.

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Jen


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Reading this thread makes me shiver when I realise just how close Lee in 'Firestorm' got to being a total Mary Sue character! Wow!

I had no idea about what a Mary Sue was when I started writing.

Irene
who probably wouldn't have written Firestorm if she'd read about Mary Sues first.


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Hazel, I didn't know whether to laugh or be nauseated at your parody! It's brilliant, and utterly stomach churning. smile

Irene, thank goodness you didn't know about Mary Sues! Fandom would be all the poorer without Lee.

Chris

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Ohohohohoh!!!!!!

I'm sitting here howling, Hazel, this was just too, too... AGH!!!!

I'm speechless....

clap under her Rock)


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Actually, this whole Mary Sue discussion is both enlightening and entertaining. I not only laugh ed at Hazel's parody, I followed all the links that were posted and rotflol ed lots more!


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Irene
who probably wouldn't have written Firestorm if she'd read about Mary Sues first
I'm with Chris. I'm glad you didn't know, Irene. Lee is one of the most non-Mary Sues I've ever read. Good OCs *are* possible; they're just harder to write than fanfic. I suppose you can say that any fiction writer is creating OCs, and its the good authors that avoid the Mary Sue syndrome.

Come to think of it, if one of us was Siegel or Schuster creating Clark Kent, wouldn't we be guilty of creating a Gary Stu? I mean, think about it. He's bright, he's the ultimate good guy, he's good-looking, he's nice to old ladies and kittens, he has these amazing powers... Good grief! goofy

I'm glad people seem to enjoy the parody. Yes, it's okay to laugh about it, because you know I didn't take it seriously. Believe it or not, there are people who actually write that kind of claptrap and *mean* it. eek

Since Rivka said she enjoyed reading the links, I thought I'd add these for any Tolkien fans out there who have read even a fraction of the awful "modern girl falls into Middle-earth and joins the fellowship" Mary Sue fics that are so prevalent. Try this (although I would add a bit of a language warning, at least for me wink ) and also this one (follow the link to the actual story in the middle of the page), which takes the tiresome summary "falls into Middle-earth" quite literally. laugh Mary Sue parodies are great fun, when they're not mean-spirited.

Hazel


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Well,

looking at the poll, I was surprised to see that most seem to find villians really hard to write. Strange, that. laugh I, myself find characters like Jimmy harder to write, 'cause they're not there for much. wink In this, I agree with Tank...

BF


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Weirdly, I put Lois and Clark. I spend a lot of time agonising about their characterisation, because I think I have a tendency to make both of them too soft and squishy. With Lois, I can occasionally overcompensate and make her too hard, so I'm constantly trying to hit that ideal middle ground between the two extremes.

Villains are great fun to write - I don't have a problem with them. M&J are also fun and usually give me a nice warm feeling inside when I'm writing them. smile Jimmy's okay; never tried Cat for more than a sentence or too so I don't know if she's difficult or not. Perry has a tendency to become a characature of himself if I'm not careful, and ditto Dr Klein - although the character is pretty cartoon-like anyway!

Original characters aren't too scary to write, although I haven't done that much. They were easiest in Purity, because they were all villains <g>. You can really let rip with your 'bad' side when you're writing original villains - I'm sure EvilEl understands where I'm coming from here. wink

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Hazel, that was fantastic! I'm still laughing so much that I almost can't type! thumbsup

Now for an attempt at keeping this even remotely on topic. I haven't written any L&C fic (though I did make an attempt the other day...) but I have written a couple of pieces for Farscape. However I find it very difficult to write a plot driven fic, so anything I write tends to be introspection/POV for (one of) the main characters, and even then, its usually an episode addition. So I don't usually have to worry about Mary Sue.

At the moment I wouldn't consider writting about the supporting cast as I struggle to flesh out characters without a lot of help from the show, thus leaving only the main characters. The same goes for OC's too. Especially them, since I'm aware of Mary Sue!

Loriel


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Originally posted by Loriel Eris:
However I find it very difficult to write a plot driven fic, so anything I write tends to be introspection/POV for (one of) the main characters,
I have the opposite problem. I don't like writing a bunch of thoughts, I feel like it bogs down the story, so I tend to only write plot-driven stuff. I usually get right to the point and then am told that my stories are too short or not waffy enough. huh


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That's a good point -- writing a-plots and b-plots are similar but not identical skills... I think most of us tend to favor one or the other, though nothing's set in stone. When I first started writing (lo these many moons ago) I was *terrified* of writing a-plot. I teamed up with a co-author so that he could write the a-plot for me <g> A few years later, I was writing one of the early eps for Season 6 and realized it was almost all a-plot. It worked out okay, though, because the writer of the ep before mine had mostly written b-plot, so it wasn't too difficult to blend them together.

Um, I think I had a point to make... probably wanted to say that even if you're not good at/comfortable with a certain aspect of writing right now, doesn't mean you're doomed forever wink

PJ


"You told me you weren't like other men," she said, shaking her head at him when the storm of laughter had passed.
He grinned at her - a goofy, Clark Kent kind of a grin. "I have a gift for understatement."
"You can say that again," she told him.
"I have a...."
"Oh, shut up."

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My trouble wth a-plot is trying to think up an actual plot! And even if I do get an actual glimmer of a plot, I can't seem to expand it. I think I'll blame my science type mind here - you're supposed to be concise, plus I was never very good a t just 'waffling' when it came to English essays. So I think I find POV easier becuse they story is already there.

Quote
Um, I think I had a point to make... probably wanted to say that even if you're not good at/comfortable with a certain aspect of writing right now, doesn't mean you're doomed forever
Thank goodness for that! laugh That means I may get back to my 'epic' at some point in my lifetime!

Loriel


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Yeah, thanks for that, Pam smile I'm having a *really* hard time coming up with a plausible plot for one of my WIPs right now - but hopefully with a little, erm, *encouragement*... yeah, that's it... smile the muse will get it right...

Melisma (ducking under her Rock to work on said WIP)


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Um, I think I had a point to make... probably wanted to say that even if you're not good at/comfortable with a certain aspect of writing right now, doesn't mean you're doomed forever
Couldn't agree more with this. I've changed so many of my writing habits since getting involved with FoLCdom.

Two in particular. I used to write in a non-linear fashion - until I started online brainstorming with my beta, Kaethel. Then it became much handier to write linear because it was less confusing for her and made it easier to note where the scene or moment being brainstormed came in context with the larger story. Which in turn, made a solution to my current problem easier to find. These days I write in linear almost without thinking about it and just never think to do anything else.

Secondly, for some unknown reason, when I started writing Masques I began writing it in single pov. Up till then, I'd mostly, if not entirely, favoured omni pov. Now, I find omni looks terribly weird (in my own stories and in the context of writing, I don't have any problems with it, curiously enough, when it's used by other authors and in the context of reading) and I've had to go through my old files changing them from omni to single before I can even get started on finishing them.

Seems no matter how long you've been at this game, you can still learn something new. Which is, of course, half the fun. jump

LabRat smile



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These days I write in linear almost without thinking about it and just never think to do anything else.
So do I, which means that if I get stuck at a certain bit I can't just leave it for later and write the next scene, which, in turn, means that the whole fic grinds to a halt...

Loriel


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Yes, that is a hazard... but I'm always worried about one of two things...

When I first started writing, in my teens, I'd imagine lots of details, maybe make some notes, and even write out pivotal scenes in these imaginary stories. Never wrote a story start-to-finish. So I'm worried that once I've written up the main scene I wanted to see with the story, I'll not go back and write the boring set-up & interaction along the way to *get* there -- although that's less of a temptation now than it used to be; can't get FDK without working a little harder than that goofy

Also, I find writing ahead to be risky, because you never know what surprises L&C will pull on you while you're writing earlier sections; it could mean substantial editing (in which case, why not save myself the bother and wait til I get there to write it) or that L&C will be trying to go one way, but I'll be forcing them back into line. There was a spot in Hearts Divided that had been the starting image for me to write the story -- but once I got there, Lois *insisted* that things change quite a lot. So I never did get to write the proto-scene... anyway, I like to have the flexibility to change things as I go...

But that's just me and as I haven't written much of anything in the last year... large grains of salt may be required. wink

PJ


"You told me you weren't like other men," she said, shaking her head at him when the storm of laughter had passed.
He grinned at her - a goofy, Clark Kent kind of a grin. "I have a gift for understatement."
"You can say that again," she told him.
"I have a...."
"Oh, shut up."

--Stardust, Caroline K
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I went for Martha and Jonathan...mostly because I never gave it a try...writing them I mean.

the other character would be Myrtle Birch...and now that I think about it, it's also because I never gave it a try!

You know what Seneque said "it's not because it's difficult that we don't do things, it's because we don't do it that it's difficult".

Carole

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Originally posted by Melisma:
but hopefully with a little, erm, *encouragement*... yeah, that's it... smile the muse will get it right...

With my muse, the only thing that works is bribes...lots and lots of chocolate. My hubby is worried that I'm going to develop diabetes 'cause he thinks I'm the one who's eating all those M & M's... :rolleyes:


Anne >^,,^<

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rotflol , Anne! And never thought of that one! Must remember it the next time Stuart tells me I can't have X, Y and Z because it's not good for my blood pressure....

LabRat (who senses that her Muse is about to develop a serious liking for Chinese takeout...)



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