Lois & Clark Forums Forums General Discussion Off Topic Civil Rights movement comes of age

I think you might have missed the point here, Captivated2. You've made it glaringly obvious how you feel about Obama, but I really don't feel that this is the place for it. There is a number of other threads where that sort of discussion might fit better.

The first line in this entire thread was

and I continued reading because it was a positive discussion where, I assumed, we could put aside our differences and agree that we have experienced a truly historic event.

Of course it's your right to post your opinion here, but like I said before, I feel like there are some more fitting threads for those opinions.

I congratulate our new president-elect for making history. Now that the people have spoken, it's time to support our new president and to wish him well. Even though people know what I think of his policies, I hope he succeeds in improving the country and in improving relations between the two parties.

In Australia, we have to vote because if we don't we get fined albeit a small amount but a fine all the same. My opinion of politicians in general is not high I believe they are all alike regardless of what party they are from.

No system of government is perfect. There is always going to be disagreement I mean we don't live in a perfect world. Given the state of the economy right now I wasn't surprised that people wanted change. In my opinion the Republican handling of the war in Iraq and the state of the economy was what sealed the deal for them. Bush's rescue package came a little too late to save the Republican campaign.

I'd like to think that we could put aside our personal views of Obama as a politician to acknowledge the fact that for a race that had largely been opressed for many years by slavery and segregation that they have achieved the highest office in America. One can say the same for that of Nelson Mandela after his release from prison that he too became South Africa's first black president.

When first heard that Obama had designs on the presidency, my initial thought was that the party nomination would go to Hilary because I didn't believe that America would vote for a black president before a woman was in office. Well I was wrong on that count, but his achievement means that we can see a woman in the running for the presidency in the next eleection. Voting a woman into office would now not be just a dream, but can be a reality because electing a minority group is an even bigger hurdle to overcome.

I'll end with this quote by Clarence Darrow in 1926: 'I would like to see a time when man loves his fellow man, and forgets his colour or his creed. We will never be civilised until that time comes.'

Yeah, CapeFetish, that's exactly what this thread is about, as I saw it when I started it: a celebration of a milestone in history, the same kind of milestone as in the UK in 1979 when Margaret Thatcher was elected prime minister. I still have little time for most of what Thatcher stood for, but I could and can still acknowledge her great achievement.

Stephnachia said:
Absolutely - but in order for that to happen, there has to be a first. Once you've had a black president, another black candidate running for president would be treated as any other candidate, black or white. If Hillary Clinton had been the nominee this year, the story would have been about the first woman potential president. It's now perfectly normal to have black and female senators and governors, but I still remember a time when that was considered something to comment on, far more than the person's policies or character.

It'll happen, and in our lifetime too. For now, as far as I'm concerned history was made last night and I'll always remember where I was the night Barack Obama was elected - and, too, I'll remember both candidates' speeches, McCain's gracious and honourable concession speech and Obama's inspirational and inclusive victory one.

Oh, and Terry: your post brought a lump to my throat, just as Obama's story of the 106-year-old voter last night did. These things were true in our lifetimes, just as apartheid in South Africa was, and we're seeing prejudice overcome and major milestones to equality achieved right before our eyes. There may be plenty more to be done, but steps such as these are a privilege to witness.


Wendy

No, sadly, It's still a dream, even more remote than I would have thought, even last year. There has been so much more sexism in the msm and also the internet coverage than I would have expected at this point. I now have no expectation that I will see a woman as President of the US in my life time because until those groups have accepted women as equals no Presidential election can be won.

Yet this is an historically significant time for the US, a first, a surmounting of what has been an oppressive yoke on the American psyche, an anvil on its soul. We must all hope for the future.

c.

I agree, Wendy. There has to be a first, just like, once upon a time, there was a first Democrat and a first Republican. And while Obama was not my choice candidate, it was an amazing realization that this man was able to bring down the race barrier and do something that many people thought wouldn't happen in our lifetime.

I admit that the flawed logic about black people voting for Obama only because he is black made me raise my eyebrows. I'm not black -- nor am I white, so does that mean I didn't vote because there wasn't a candidate up there waving an Indian flag? I don't think so. I voted for McCain, and wait ... let me check ... :::flips over to CNN::: Yep, he's still white.

I'd say that is an ignorant statement. This election has had more coverage than any other, starting long before the primaries. It was a rare night to not sit down for dinner or having morning coffee without John, Barack or Hillary.

Newspapers spent pages and pages going over the issues, covering the primaries, giving voters information. Web sites provided detailed information about state initiatives, as well as candidates.

Then again, some people just want someone to blame.

Unfortunately, there were probably some who voted for Obama primarily because he is black. Just as there were some who did NOT vote for him for the same reason. Ignorant viewpoints, both of those, in my opinion. But if people chose to squander their votes without making a reasoned decision, they have to live with the consequences, and with their own consciences.

Kathy

Please delete.

I can't resist, I've got to post this picture:



Have you noticed how much Barack Obama resembles his maternal grandfather? In this picture, the older man is white and the younger man is brown, and the young man has typically African frizzy hair, but otherwise they are so similar.

My colleague says that we are all Africans. He says that humanity arose in Africa, and then one group of African humans left Africa and spread across the rest of the globe. According to my colleague, almost each and every one of us are descendants of this group of Africans who left Africa. Those who can't trace their ancestry back to these African emigrants are several groups who remained in Africa. According to my colleague, the ethnic diversity in Africa is greater than the ethnic diversity in all of the rest of the world put together. In other words, people in Europe, India and China are more closely related to each other than people in various parts of Africa.

Sorry for going a bit off topic in this off topic thread, but I love that picture of Obama and his maternal grandparents.

Ann

Personally, I can't stand the guy. I still say if Obama was white, Clinton would have been the nominee (not that I think she is any better) Voting for someone because of their minority status is every bit as prejudiced as voting against them. I used to think we had come a long way, now I'm not so sure.

As was noted above, this thread was intended to mark a historic occasion. If you don't like Barack Obama, that's your right, but here we're talking about the historic significance of an African-American being elected president - and that does not imply that anyone voted for or against him because of his colour.


Wendy

Okay, I think I'm calling time here. We don't normally do this, but...

There are at least four or five political threads where you can register your disquiet, disgust or generally vent your frustration on the fact that your candidate didn't win. In fact, there's a ready-made thread for doing so in the 'pity party' thread. Or, you can even start a brand new thread to do so if you wish.

Ann/Carol - you might want to take the last option and start a new topic on women candidates and sexism. It might turn into an interesting conversation.

However, I'm declaring this thread to be solely for the purpose of celebrating Obama's win and I would appreciate that anyone posting here stays on topic and sticks to that alone, nothing else.

Don't be selfish - give us this one thread to be positive in. The rest of them you can have all to yourselves.

Thanks for your co-operation.

LabRat
Board Admins Team

Labrat, in my only post in this thread I was responding to earlier comments from others about hopes for a woman President, not introducing a new topic into the discussion.

As well, the final comment in my post was positive and spoke to the election of Barack Obama.

Ann, too, has been quite enthusiastic about Obama's win.

"Civil rights" is such a huge topic

c.

Carol, please re-read my earlier post. At no point did I say that you introduced the thread. What I said was that if you and Ann want to continue that discussion, please take it elsewhere.

Let me be clear on this. You and Ann were included in my earlier post not because you'd done anything wrong with your posts, but simply because between you, you'd embarked on a whole new topic of discussion that could easily blossom and take over the thread and I thought you might want to continue it elsewhere as you both seemed to find it an interesting topic all on its own.

It was an invitation to continue, not an admonition to stop. If I inadvertently hurt any feelings by that inclusion, or anyone misunderstood my intent there then I'm sorry about that. Nor was it an order to continue. If, as it turns out, neither of you are as interested in the subject as it seemed, there's no onus on either of you to discuss it any further. Entirely up to you guys!

Yes, the subject can be broad-ranging. But this thread is not intended to be a broad-ranging discussion on civil rights, nor was it Wendy's intent to make it so. I thought that Wendy had made that fairly clear. So, to pin this down completely, all I'm saying is, if you want to discuss another aspect of that subject, beyond Obama's win, please start a new thread for it or use one of the existing political threads.

I know that we don't normally insist on topics being kept on topic, so it may have come as a bit of a shock to be asked to do it this time around. And that's why no one in this thread did anything wrong by not keeping on topic, because you're not likely to expect it. It's just not usually something we are particularly concerned with on this forum. Unlike others who can bounce on you from a large height if you so much as include a sentence that might waver a little from the topic.

But in this case, I think it's justified.

Thanks.

LabRat

Not following your logic, there, Labrat.

Wendy actually indicated by referring to her hope for a woman President someday that she saw that as a legitimate part of a "civil rights" post.
c.

Well, I'm not sure that was her intent, Carol, I think this was:

Veering the thread onto a discussion about sexism in American politics seems to me to be off topic for the thread. I thought at the time I was doing you and Ann a favour, encouraging you to continue, making it clear I wasn't shutting you down. Ah well...no good deed and all that.

Anyway, I trust this finally makes my position and intent clear.

LabRat

Sorry, Labrat - I took your suggestion as a form of censorship, which I'm now less certain it was. Note, however, that my initial post did not address just the issue of sexism but also the positive aspect of the election. I thought that was an equally important part of my post, although you haven't commented on it.

Note, too, that my initial response was not specifically a reply to Wendy's "starter" post but to a different post. (although clearly I share Wendy's hope )

As for whether Wendy intended her post to be limited only to the narrower definition of civil rights only she can say for sure. All readers can do is consider a whole post and interpret it as they see it. Btw, you've cited Wendy, but that comment was made *after* my initial post so could not have affected how I interpreted her first post.

Perhaps there's an easy way out of this issue in the future? People starting a thread could indicate that they wish to limit discussion to one part only of their post. e.g. Wendy could have said she wanted people to comment *only* on the importance of Obama's election for the Civil Rights Movement. ?

c.

I am proud to have been able to participate in this election, especially since I am 23, so this is only the second time I have been able to cast a vote for our nation's president. I think that, whether you voted for McCain, Obama or one of the independents, we should all be proud to have voted in this election. For the first time we had a female vice presidential candidate and an african american presidential candidate as the prime contenders in our bi-partisan system. And whether or not you agree with his ideals, Obama's victory is something to be celebrated especially in the name of the people who did not vote for or against him based on the color of his skin but on their faith, or lack thereof, in his goals.

<sigh>

Okay, now I'm baffled. I cannot see how you could think it was censorship, Carol, at any point, since I made it perfectly clear from the outset that those who were wanting to post on subjects other than Obama's win had several other threads on the forum where they could do that. It takes a very strange brand of logic to hear censorship out of "you're very welcome to talk about this elsewhere on the forum, just not here...".

They could do. If they particularly wanted to. Or thought that some members might have a problem recognising what the thread topic was. Entirely up to them, I guess. Once again, though, Wendy seems to have made it entirely clear what her intentions were:

I won't quibble with you over what you interpreted her intentions to be or when you read her various clarifications of her intentions...or whatever. I'm not sure why you feel these are important points to nail down. They make no difference to me, nor have any bearing on my point which was pinning the topic of the thread down and eliminating those elements not on topic. What is important is that you respect her intentions now that you know what they were.

Now, I'm extremely busy with Archive stuff today, so this will be my last post on this one. I think I've made my position clear and I just don't have time to go around in ever decreasing circles on the subject.

LabRat

Labrat, I said a "form of censorship".

In that you were limiting the parts of the original post which could be commented on in this thread (and after the fact at that) it was a form of censorship. As well, I would interpret your suggestion to 'take it elsewhere' as a polite way of limiting comment, especially in the context on these mbs where threads have often gone quite impressively (and frequently entertaininly ) onto things not even mentioned in the original post. Like being asked to leave the room, so to speak.

Had the topic not been touched on in the original post, however, I don't think "censorship" could be used.

I mentioned the other part of my post in an effort to show there was more to my post than just that one aspect, just like Wendy's original post. I was not trying to highjack a thread. But rather to suggest that as important as this election was, there's more to be done.

Well, I'm absolutely convinced, Labrat, that you and I will never agree on anything. Time to let it go.

Maybe we should both be writing fanfic instead. (and this last comment is hugely OT.

c.