Lois & Clark Forums Forums General Discussion Lois & Clark Lucky Leon Episode Discussion Thread

The last couple of episodes didn’t do too much to move Lois and Clark’s relationship forward from the point where Clark asked Lois out in “The Phoenix.” Fortunately, we got a big development in this episode with Lois and Clark actually going out on their first “official” date.

There was a lot that I loved about this episode. Lois and Clark preparing for their date was a humorous scene. I loved the effect of Clark spinning in and out of different outfits. The date itself was really enjoyable to watch, even if it ended with Lois trying to push Clark away at the end. Also, the kiss at the end of the episode is one of my favorite kisses between Lois and Clark, if not my very favorite kiss.

Mayson’s death at the end of the episode is one of the saddest moments of the whole series for me. It was the first time in this series where even Clark was too slow to save someone.

Which he couldn't be feeling at all guilty about in "Resurrection", now could he? If that wasn't a pull of conscience, I don't know what is. He wanted to be fully focused on Lois, but because he was, Mayson died. How many more people would die because of his love for Lois? <<Clark's thoughts, not mine.>> This is another reason why I thought Lois giving Dan in "Resurrection" the time of day was soooooooooooooooooooooo wrong. Clark is clearly going through stuff dealing with Mayson's death and Lois holds it against him. Lois should have been more kind to Clark and give him more time, for what he must be going through. She doesn't and I think she's cruel because of it.

I don't know. I know I'm in the minority, but the date felt staged. They already knew each other. They just put on pretty clothes and went out to a fancy restaurant and told different stories. I don't know how they could pretend NOT to know each other as well as they do, or what the point of it was. But then again, it's like putting on a big white dress and walking down the aisle to get married -- it's a symbol that their relationship has changed, a rite of passage. I know I always felt uncomfortable and fake, going out to a fancy place when there was no reason to do so, which is probably why they showed the end of the date at the restaurant and not when they first got there. They did have time to get comfortable. I've never been Lois's shoes and I have trouble understanding why Clark keeps trying to impress Lois with big expensive dates, when she already knows him (this date and the expensive concert tickets from before, which I could never see either of them at BTW). If you already know someone that should give you the freedom to be yourself and not act to impress.

After all that, I have to agree with LLF in that it was very adorable, and romantic, the preparation through to the slamming door end. I do give Clark bonus points for not leaving to go on a Superman rescue, but that comes back to bite him, now doesn't it?

I love the whole Lois freaking out and slamming the door. And Perry calming her down the next day.

A-Plot wise, we see Lois being used to trick Superman into stealing from the good guys to give to the bad guys, which probably doesn't help Clark's fragile ego any.

There's a huge, huge difference (I think) between hanging out as friends/coworkers and going on a date. I've dated coworkers before and, even when you're already good friends, you're seeing them in a new light. There's something deeply flattering and wonderful about the transformation that takes place when a friend you want as more than a friend gets dressed up and takes you somewhere "nice". They never pretended not to know each other, they simply told new stories to each other. I found it sweet and believable that Lois would confide something formative and painful about her adolescence to Clark. That's really the essence of the kind of freedom that you'd feel around a good friend (and not a first date). I found it sexy beyond belief when Clark fed her cake and was obviously affected by her moan of delight. It was fun to see Lois get flustered when she realized that she'd said "or make love" out loud. After waiting so long to see them drop the barriers and move forward with the relationship, I was delighted and charmed by their first date.

I agree with Virginia completely that having them go to a Pearl Jam concert was ridiculous. They were not the target audience for that band and it felt (then and now) like a lame attempt to make them "hip" or something. :rolleyes:

As for the kiss? That was awesome, but I always have to make sure I bump it to start past the part where Clark asks why she came back for him because she was "running into a nuclear explosion". Really? Really?!? If it's a nuclear explosion, it's not going to matter if she's 20 feet away or 20 miles. She's toast! I can usually overlook the "science" on the show, but that one drives me right around the bend.

And, finally, RIP Mayson Drake. I still mourn you, you poor deluded creature.

ETA: I also like that Clark states that Jimmy is still trying to get him to wear an earring. It's a nice nod to the couch scene in The Prankster when he contemplates being a "wild man" like Mel Gibson in 'Lethal Weapon'.

Part of the reason that the date felt "staged" to me was that they were already in a relationship before they went back and had this first date. That semi-first date / stake-out in "The Phoenix" and the fact that Lois chose to stay with Jimmy in the "Return of the Prankster" showed that their relationship had moved past friendship and past the "first date" stage. True, they didn't get their first real kiss until this episode, until after this "date" but they both knew there was something between them. It was one of the reasons why Diana kissing Superman (or Superman allowing Diana to kiss him) in "Top Copy" was so horrible. I felt like he had already moved into the "relationship" stage with Lois (and why poor Mayson probably thought she and Clark had already moved into that stage enough to ask him away for the weekend), and in a way, he deserved what he got from kissing Diana. Reap what ye sow, big guy.

In my LnC stories, Lois and Clark always develop their relationship out of friendship, instead of from "dating" per se, this is mostly because I've never been on a date (you're so lucky to have that experience to draw from, Sue). I married my college sweetheart and every relationship I've ever had developed from hanging out. Every dance I attended in high school, I invited the guy or we were already in a relationship. The one guy who actually DID call me to invite me out I wasn't interested in being more than friends with, and I was so painfully shy I didn't know how to act with him after telling him 'no'. Hence my comment of never having been in Lois's shoes.

If Lex hadn't been resurrected, and Lois and Clark had had *this* date back in "The Phoenix" how would it have been different than it was having it delayed until this point? (I'm just going to ignore the concert date, because I believe that was poorly planned on Clark's part, especially since a concert would not have any of Lois's criteria, which she listed, for a first date, and therefore, would have been an unmitigated disaster.)

Actually I have to wonder if it makes sense that Lois gets all scared at the end of the date. I mean, they have been about to go on a date for a while. It might have made sense if they had gone on the date back when first planned when she was all "you said hi, oh no".

However they did the chess game at the end of "top copy", and then went through all the various interactions in "Return of the Prankster" in an "almost dating" situation. It seems a bit odd she then panicks.

Lois' basically forcing Clark to go to lunch with Mason the next day seems even worse.

The kiss brings things back into the right way. However spring Mason's murder on us with the kiss was probably more than neccessary.

Totally unrelated to the date thing, but there's the bit where Superman gets confused about who he should take the nuclear warhead away from.

I think it was Bobbart who had a fic (I can't remember which one) where Clark was uncharacteristically smart and didn't fall for the con game. The quote in the fic was something to the effect that Lucky Leon's plan depended on Superman being gullible enough to take a warhead away from some people just based on some other people's say-so. "That was probably why Lucky Leon was in (gadgets or whatever) instead of operations for the KGB." I wish I could remember this fic and quote because it's much more amusing than I'm making it sound.

I think that sounds like a fun story.

In fan fic for this edpisode there is Bob Bart's "After a Door Slams".

John, thanks for reminding me. Somehow I had forgotten to make some fanfic recommendations for fics based on this episode. Of course the first one that came to mind is Bobbart's fine After A Door Slams , followed by The Morning After A Door Slams and The Evening After A Door Slams .

Pam Jernigan continues the theme of Clark not giving up so easily (like he did in canon) in her Lucky Lois , as does Nitemar in Love And Secrets .

What if things had been turned around, and it was Clark who told Lois that he could never see her again? Well, Missy Gallant talks about this in Lucky Lunkhead , where more things happen, including a revelation.

Sheer B-plot WAFF carries Kaethel's Magical Night , where the author asks, "Going home from her first date with Clark is a frightening moment for Lois, but will the temptation to find out where their relationship could lead be stronger than the urge to slam the door in his face?"

Carol M tells us what happened after L&C's kiss at the end of the episode in Torn, Dirty Shirt . Let's just say that Mayson isn't the only one who finds out what Clark has been hiding. Sarah C. explores the same theme in Her Choice .

You're right, Virginia, it should give you that freedom. But, like they discussed earlier in the episode, there are expectations when you go on a date. I had to laugh when you said I was lucky to have dating experience to draw from. If you'd been there for some of those dates, you'd realize how gloriously lucky you were NOT to have to gone through that "ritual".

It always made sense to me that Clark wanted to impress Lois with a date. This is the woman who nearly married Lex Luthor, so there is some little piece of her that can be charmed by flash. She's a Metropolis girl, after all. Clark's playing in the big leagues now and he wants to be able to pull it off. I think it means a lot to him to be able to woo Lois without having to use a single superpower. That has always made perfect sense to me. Pre-Clark, Lois hasn't had a good track record with men and dating. After that many disasters and poor choices, she has to feel like she's a magnet for psychopaths and jerks. She also has the example of her parents' marriage to draw on. So once everything is going so well, so smoothly, with Clark, there has to be some doubt for her on whether he's secretly a psycho. Even worse -- what if he's not? Like she tells Perry the next morning, she's panicked because has absolutely no idea what to do now.

That, for me, is what makes it so sweet and special when she tells Clark that slamming the door in his face the night before was a mistake. But this time, instead of freaking out, she takes that risky second chance and they kiss. <sigh>

I wish they had had somewhere where Clark learns that Lois chose him over Lex, and it was not Perry barging in that stopped the marriage.

Although I have to agree either way Clark would still feel a need to try and impress Lois.

One question, how did Clark manage to avoid having to run off during this 5 hour plus date (I think he picks up Lois at 7:00, and they return to her place about midnight)?

Hmm, maybe I should write a story that addresses that issue.

I revive this stale post because I need help from the native English speakers here to understand a piece of dialogue between Lois and Clark.

The exchange is the famous one at Lois' doorway, at the end of the date. From the transcript:

Lois: No, I mean a _really_ nice time. Maybe the best time I ever had. It wasn't the funniest. Or the wildest. or the --
Clark: Don't knock yourself out, Lois.

I just can't get it: what are they meaning? Is she trying to downplay how well the date went? Is he ironic?

Lois is telling Clark(non-sarcastically) that she had the best time imaginable on their date (even though it wasn't the funniest or the wildest... it was still very, very good) and she's worried that it was the high point, that it can't get any better (hence the "I can never see you again" and the slamming of the door in his face).

Clark is worried that her words mean that she didn't have a good, that he was boring. What he means by "don't knock yourself out" (which, by the way, IS sarcastic)... in other words "don't compliment me *too* much". Although, he's teasing her because he knows that ISN'T what she means. He just wants her to realize that she's not picking her words carefully and it sounds as if she's insulting him. Perhaps a part of him says this because he IS worried that plain old Clark Kent is too boring compared to Superman.

Have I made it more clear, or just muddied the waters more?

What Virginia said. I'll add that her body language says she is really falling in love with Clark and she is afraid that it is too much. She feels threatened by the intensity of the feelings she is having. Clark realizes what she is *not* saying and accepts her fear. He is, after all, a very patient man.
Hope this helps too.
regards
Artemis
P.S. feel free to ask these questions anytime
P.S. 2 I blame the mistakes in Lucky Leon by the fact they had a host of writers who changed things as they wanted it.

Game, set, match.

Thank you both for taking the time to answer! Now it's clearer. Although I realize it was more a matter of reading between the lines... Gosh, these two are pretty complicated! :P

Hi all. Long time L&C fan, first post on these boards.

I'm curious what you think Clark was going to say to Mason at lunch before being interrupted by the phone call...

I've just watched this again and it goes something like:

"
Clark, this isn't easy but, I'm sure by the way I've been throwing myself at you that it's obvious I have feelings for you. This is where your supposed to say 'I have feelings for you too Mason'.

Well, I do.

That was enthusiastic.

Mason I care for you, and I think about you, a lot.

Then what's the problem?

How do I say this?

Look Clark, I'm a lawyer, I can tell you're hiding something, and it's keeping us apart. What is it? I can handle it.

It's not that simple.

If it's Lois, just say.

Mason, I care for you, and I care for Lois...

"

My impression from his wishing to avoid Mason's date requests (the play, lunch) and wishing to avoid Mason all together back in Top Copy (when he doesn't want to ask her for information on the assassin), is that he knows he doesn't feel the same way about Mason as he does about Lois. Lois has agreed to try a date with him, to think about him in that way, and he wants to pursue that. But here he makes Mason and Lois sound equal before the interruption, so what was he about to say next? Was there a "but" coming?

I'm also dying to know, when he says about the secret keeping them apart "how do I say this?!", is he wondering how to say it's Lois, or is he thinking the problem is superman?

And what does he mean "I think about you a lot"???!

Hello Quelly! Welcome on the boards! *waves*


Yep. That's it.



Thing is, Clark is a (very) nice guy, and he's somehow intrigued by the fact that Mayson prefers his "real" persona to the superhero. In my experience, nice guys don't like to openly reject a girl they care for (even if not in a a romantic way), because that will make them look as jerks. Trying not to hurt the girl, they beat about the bush. Add to the mix that Clark's relationship with Lois is still an undefined work in progress (so he can't really say there's something going on with her), and that all will result in a pathetic babbling
(And yes, there was definitely a "but" coming)



My two cents: Lois is certainly a (big) part of the question, but in this case I think there's also a reference to the Superman question: the "I don't know how to say this" line could mean that while Clark doesn't want to reveal his secret to Mayson (because otherwise it would make me very mad! He's telling it to her and not to Lois?!?), he's still trying to explain that there's a big part of him (the superhero) that she can't appreciate, and that in itself would make a big obstacle in building a relationship between the two of them.
One thing is for sure: that call for help occurred at a very convenient timing

Hi. Yes I thought the same, the most honest way to sort it all out would be to say there's another side to me you don't know about and I know you won't like it. But Mason would pursue what that is. And if it were me I'd be pretty irritated at being told what I think by someone else, so yes that conversation route is pretty messy. He can't tell her more than Lois!

Actually I think it is a bit of a assumption on Clatk's that Mason couldn't accept superman if she really understood who he is. We see as she is dying at the end of the episode that she entrusts him with her clue, after discovering his secret.

Coming across as quite the Mason fan, which I'm not really, but every time I watch the middle of session 2 it annoys me how Clark strings her along and doesn't put her out of her misery. He clearly never wants to go on any of the dates she invites him on.

I think Clark makes the assumption because he isn't interested in Mayson enough to give her the benefit of the doubt.


Having been in Mayson's shoes more that once in real life I can't but wholeheartedly agree. And while I enjoy the romance between Lois and Clark, I feel for the poor lawyer every time I watch those episodes...

Welcome to the boards, Quelly!

I agree Clark, being the nice guy, strings along Mayson (who clearly will only take a strong "No" for an answer), which shows he's not quite the nice a guy as he'd like to be. Apparently, he has trouble with telling strong women (cough... Lana) "no"... perhaps it's any woman. Is he stringing Mayson along because he wants to see what happens with Lois first, and if it doesn't work with Lois, then Mayson is his fall-back? (A jerky thing to do.) Or does he not know how to say "It's not you; it's me" (i.e. Superman), which he knows will make him sound like a jerk? Because it IS a jerky thing to say, because it's telling the woman that she can't make that determination for herself (cough... Contact breakup). I'm sure that Clark has thought a lot about Mayson, but not in the way that Mayson has thought about him. He should just be honest with her about his feelings with Lois and stop stringing Mayson along, if he doesn't want to come across as a jerk. Honesty (not necessarily revealing honesty) is always the best policy. A woman will respect him more for being honest with her than for being "nice" to her ("nice" in quote since it really isn't nice to string a woman along without giving her a definite answer).

Clark's not perfect and that's a good thing. Perfect men (or women) don't exist and are less believable as characters. Unlike many people on these boards, I like both Mayson and Dan Scardino as characters, just not as romantic interests for Clark and Lois. (Hey, at least Scardino is better man for Lois than Lex, right?)

I like Scardino too! Well, sort of... In the WWW episode he's the one to give Superman the name of the only irreproachable lawyer on the market: I guess this testifies that he has a value system of his own

Hello, Quelly. Welcome to the boards and thanks for starting this discussion.

I had always had the impression that he has a hard time saying, "No," regardless of the circumstances. If Ralph had wanted to pal around with him by going to a football game, for example, I think Clark would have even had a hard time declining that offer. IMHO, it has nothing to do with the other person's gender; it has everything to do with not wanting to hurt another person's feelings.

And I agree with you about characters needing weaknesses. Not only are such characters more believable, they are also easier to relate to, and therefore (all else being equal) much more likable.

HiddenMoon, I, too, like Scardino and Mayson as characters. Scardino may be a bit brash, but his heart is generally in the right place. And while I don't want Mayson to be with Clark, I would have liked to have seen her find happiness with someone else (maybe Scardino? Two birds with one stone).

Joy,
Lynn

Joy,
Lynn

Welcome Quelly ...

Lynn posted:


Clark is a really nice guy--a guy who has never had a lot of friends. No one he could be himself around, or really relate to (until Lois). Feeling different sometimes makes you feel like you are on the outside--watching everything 'else' (people relating to other people) play out in front of you. To be included--to be needed/to be wanted--to have others asking to spend time with you, is special...especially when it hasn't happened much in your life.

IMO, with Clark and Mason, Clark was just being his 'nice by default' self. I don't think he meant to lead her on with intent. He just appreciates people, their friendships, and does not--in any way--want to hurt them. He's felt pain socially, and he does not want to inflict it onto others.

And--totally IMO again --I think Mason was a bit too pushy regarding Clark.

The combination of their personalities led to a lot of unnecessary back and forth...

Laura

(And sticking to the same train of thought, when Clark did meet Lois, when he was able to immediately understand her--how she was hiding herself, creating walls of protection--and actually see himself in her, THAT, I've always thought, is what sealed the deal for Clark that Lois was 'The One' for him. He finally--after his whole life feeling different--felt like he could belong).

And to sidebar a sidebar (hey, why not? ), that is totally so much why this show clicked with me. When you grow up shy, wonder day to day about fitting in, seeing these awesome characters figure that whole process out is pretty reassuring .

Laura, I agree with every single word you wrote. At first glance, the only thing Clark and Lois have in common is that they are both journalists for the Daily Planet, but did a little deeper and you see two peas in a pod.

And you described perfectly one of the main draws of the show for me, as well. The only difference is that instead of wondering day to day about fitting in, I just plain concluded as a child that I never would fit in. (There's a reason why Mr. Spock was one of my all-time favourite characters.)

Joy,
Lynn

It's always interesting to see how everyone interprets the same fictional situations differently depending on their experiences...


You know, I was thinking about that just a few days ago... Mayson and Scardino together! If I were a writer, I think it would make a fun story to tell: they're two characters with very different personalities and a lot of potential

P.S.: Celebrating my 100th post! Feels good to be a hack from Nowheresville...

I agree with Lynn. Well argued, Laura!

While Clark admits to Lois in OB that he still communicates with his friends from college, you actually never see him with any of his other so-called friends (or see him talking to them). I'm betting that they are more like acquaintances (like Rachel), whom he's friendly with, but not really close to.

Virginia posted:


Completely agree with you, Virginia .

Lines like that from Clark--and I believe there is another example somewhere where Clark says sorta the same type of thing (totally blank as to when though), have always kind of thrown me. There's really not a lot of 'proof' that these friends are still in his life (and what has always amused me is that Lois--who admits to not having a 'best friend'/etc before Clark--seems to have them come out in spades...Linda, Molly, the 'tiny-sized' group who get shrunk in IASWAA).

What I've come to conclude, IMO, is pretty much where you went, too. I don't think Clark has ever, really, been completely close--as in best friend type of close--with anyone prior to Lois.

I think he became emotionally connected to Rachel, to Lana, a bit (drew overall closer to them as compared to males) because relationships, in nature, sometimes lead to more of an emotional investment. But then Lana ended bad, therefore, they fell apart from each other--lost contact. Rachel and Clark walked away from whatever they were relationship-wise still in a good place. They remained, as you said, acquaintances. Rachel, maybe, being his closest acquaintance from his past? (but I've always gotten from GGGOH that they weren't horribly up to date on each other).

Guy-wise, I never really believed Clark had long-lasting, quality friendships prior to starting at the Planet. We never heard about them, no proof of them. And IMO, that probably had a ton to do with what all was happening to him growing up...the powers, the strength, the flying. How confusing that timeframe--his teenage years--must have been for him. How startling. How lonely. 'The Fortress of Solitude' says a lot, you know?

Whatever friendships Clark had when he was really young, a kid, playing at friend's houses, etc., I'd assume faded away through his teenage years. I can see Clark distancing himself from them, from everyone, as he tried to figure himself out. Make sense out of what was happening to him.

We know he went to college--we don't know really what that time truely was like for him. I'd guess better (because by then he is a bit older, a bit more adjusted to all the changes to himself), but probably, still pretty lonely.

We do know that as soon as the 'pre-planned' parts of life (high school/college) were over, Clark ran. Moved place to place. Tried to figure out how to be himself. Tried to figure out where he fit in. And we know that those years were still quite lonely (by him telling Lois that he never fit in prior to meeting her).

I think Clark's version of 'friendship' was very much like our version of 'acquaintance' pre-Lois. He hadn't ever really had anything closer (than an acquaintance), to know what a true friend was.

Lynn posted:


Going off of what you said, Lynn, and also, off of why I related to these characters--doubting myself, not letting myself be truely 'me' around others (still currently wrestle with this, btw--I think I need to conclude what you did as a child, Lynn ), I think meeting Lois would have been completely life-affirming for Clark. Personally, when I have really connected with someone (the small amount of times when this has truely and deeply happened) it was HUGE. Amazing. Validating. Clark--having never had this....can you imagine how great it would feel? How exciting? Top it off with being very physically attracted to the person. Top it off again with professionaly admiring and respecting this person.

Lightning bolts! Stars! Fireworks! I don't think Clark truely even noticed another woman after the day he layed eyes on Lois .


When you feel all alone, when you've felt that way for so much of your life, suddenly not feeling alone is quite the big deal.


What dreams are made of, actually .
Laura

(Wow--just went back and reread this post...quite the 'kick' I was on. Eek ).

Laura, I do believe you've got Clark's character down. Perhaps it's your turn to put pen to paper (or fingers to keyboard) and write! (Please adjourn to the Challenge thread for details. )