Lois & Clark Forums Forums General Discussion Lois & Clark I have question?

I have just seen the Look, up in the sky!: The Amazing story of SUPERMAN! c/o of my 7 yr. old niece
who loves LnC. She discovered them through my DVDs.

I was wondering if it was my imagination or they did not have a whole lot on the LnC Series. They mentioned it. Dean himself partakes in it the documentary/bts. But, there is not a alot of footage of him as Superman as there is as Smallville footage. I mean I know that Smallville is still on the air,but, it seemed more positive towards Smallville. I may just must be bias. But, I do not think so.

And, I think, I am not sure, that the director of the Superman Returns movie said: that one of the reasons why Dean Cain was successful as Supes was because, he had a lot of charm. But, that was really all he commented about the series. I do not know about anyone else. But I think Lois and Clark is much more successful than it just being a "charming" show?

What do you guys think?
Granted. I did tune in to see Superman (he is hot in the suit) but, the show has spunk and still holds up now!!! I just finally got to actually see all four seasons completely!!! When they were on first aired the kept pre-empting them (ABC) and showing re-runs that I did not get to see them all in order.

You aren't alone in your observations elflinn. LNC seems to be somewhat of the red-headed step-child of the Superman franchise.

Why, exactly, is difficult to explain.

There are a lot of theories out there - some say it's due to the marriage - some say it's due to the show's lack of "extreme" popularity (because let's face it - the show was popular, we're all proof of that, just not as popular as the "execs" would have liked).

I've never personally understood why "Smallville" receives more praise than LNC. It doesn't even prominently feature "Superman" - Tom Welling has yet to wear the suit. <g> And it has only been on, what, 2 more years than LNC? LNC had 4 - isn't Smallville up to 6? It's not like LNC only lasted for a season and then went on into obscurity...

But anyway, I'll step back down off of my soapbox now, and let someone else have a turn. <g>

-- DJ

Oh, and "welcome" - btw - I see this is your 2nd post and you registered in Dec. So I just wanted to say a little welcome to the boards.

I’m very curious about this too.

Take Superman returns, I film I’ve seen heavily criticised by Superman fans.
The average critic seems not have liked it because it wasn’t true too the comics and because Superman’s moral compass was out of whack, peeping, home wrecking etc. I mostly didn’t like SR because it wasn’t L&C, but I seem virtually alone in that. These people don’t like Smallville either because Clark isn’t the upstanding guy he I supposed too be, but at least that series is mentioned in the context. L&C doesn’t exist. Teri Hatcher was a good Lois Lane, that about as much recognition I’ve seen the series receive.
I believe Singer said something about making SR a romance movie to reel in the ladies so it wouldn’t be all explosions and heroics. Presumable this dark brooding Superman and the unrequited love in the story is that.
Now I’m a guy, so I don’t know if it works but I just find the love story tedious in SR. and in contrast, I do I find the romance in L&C really touching, evidently there are some ladies that think so too. So why couldn’t they use they use the L&C concept? It’s Byrne comics after all, it’s not like it was invented for the show.

Many Superman fans doesn’t seem to have liked Caine’s portrayal of Superman. He lacks the kind of grace and majesty that Reeves had. Instead Cain projects a kind of gentle giant persona with charm and a great deal of warmth he seem to radiate an unpretentious goodness. People seem to expect Superman to do a lot of flexing, showing that he is the top dog, but really why? If he possessed such immense powers what would be the point? Instead Clark in L&C wants to be appreciated for who he is not what he can do. Which is what makes the concept work for me.

I don’t find any other Superman incarnation particularly interesting. even the iconic Reeves is boring. L&C has a depth and believability that I just haven’t encountered in the superman mythos. I find it strange that not more people think like me. Ah well.

That DVD was just wacky. The Smallville segment just seemed to go on and on. Well, at least it seemed to take me a great deal of time to FF through it...

I could be wrong, but I think L&C got slightly more time & attention on the DVD than Superman III or IV did. (I should HOPE so!) But my point is, those were important movies, and they were just sort of glossed over, too... as was the Superboy series. (And was Superfriends mentioned at all?? I know the 1996 animated series was, as was Justice League, but I don't recall the DVD mentioning Superfriends... I could be wrong.)

The DVD seemed to be more of a promotion for Superman Returns than anything else... for the non-fan rather than the avid Superman fan (who would probably already know most of the information presented) to make them see that Superman is cool. What better way to pound that into them than to say "Superman is on TV *right now*! See? He's hip, he's current!! And here's a show on the WB to prove it! Woohoo."

At least, that's one of my theories. My other theory is that the people who made that DVD need to have their heads examined.

i totally agree with awran. The superman returns movie, seems very dark. All supermans values seem to have disapeared. Spying on lois in her house, having a child out of wedlock etc. Dean cains version of superman was much more endearing. He was portraying an alien with extrodinary abilities, just trying to be an average guy and live a normal (as much as possible) life with the love of his life lois. I definately think that smallville had way too much air time in this dvd.

Okay, I love Lois and Clark. It is my favorite of all the Superman incarnations. But...

I do have to say something about Caincrazy's remark about Superman Returns being dark and morally unsteady...

I will agree with you that I didn't like the whole premise of Superman having a kid out of wedlock. However, to be honest, Superman II did set up that story line quite legitimately (wince). Actually if I were to get irritated with one of the Superman movies it would have been the 2nd one when Superman "slept" with Lois on a whim and out of wedlock. That is what led to the child out of wedlock.

But anyway, I digress, that's not actually what I was going to comment on. <g> What I was really going to comment on was the "Spying on lois in her house" part. Let's not forget that our gorgeous, sweet, "endearing" Dean Cain/Clark Kent, did the exact same thing in the LNC series. In fact, he did it right off the bat in the Pilot episode...first hanging around her apartment building watching her get back from her date with Luthor and then floating up to hover outside her window and listen in on her conversation with Lucy.

And all before Clark Kent and Lois Lane could even be called "good friends". At least the Clark Kent in SR had had a long-time relationship with Lois Lane before he went to her house and spied on her. <g>

Anyway, I just love to play devil's advocate from time to time and had to remind everyone of our very own "stalker Clark".

-- DJ

Well you got me there DJ I didn't think about that. Then again I got the feeling that he wanted to make sure she had gotten home safe from her date with Luthor, not really that he wanted to check out her private conversation. Maybe it's because it's written darker but in SR he seemed just like the creepy ex-boyfriend. Especially since he does his level best to wreck her relationship with Richard.
Or maybe I'm just biased.

To me it's not so much that he got a kid out of wedlock either, we have plenty of fic were that happened, (think Sue's FB).
But I would expect fatherhood to mean the world to him. In SR it doesn't seem to be a big deal, all he says is that "he is always around" For what? Nothing about shared caretaking, coming clean with Lois etc.

Anyway, the pre crisis superman concept, where Clark is the disguise feels so two-dimensional. I never really got why Superman is so nice to people, he just is. I would think that is blatantly obvious when you put the post and pre crisis concept side by side.

But evidently not. I would have thought those who liked the comic books would have liked LCTNAOS, but they hardly mention it. OTOH, they don't slag it either, like smallville.

DJ, I loathe this scene with an absolute passion, and I totally agree that it was creepy and stalker-like and completely out of character for L&C's Clark. I've excused it only because it was the pilot, and often the characters aren't really well-established in the pilot.

But then in one of the "Stardust" FDK threads, C_A reminded me that he also spies on her when she accepts Luthor's proposal, and I realized that I don't much like that scene either, even though it's just slightly more understandable that he wouldn't be able to resist the temptation under those circumstances. But stalker!Clark just doesn't ring true to me in terms of his overall character, and I wish they'd never included either of those scenes.

Caroline

He watches her apartment in WWW, too.

Hee hee - see I knew there were other "spying" scenes... I was just too lazy to go look them up. <g>

I'm sure I'm probably the minority on this one - but - stalkerClark doesn't bother me... and further more, he doesn't feel out of character for me either. Well, okay, a little out of character in the pilot - since he didn't know Lois that well yet.

But the rest of the times we've seen him do it - no. Clark was deeply and completely in love with Lois... and he was constantly looking out for her - whether that was physically or otherwise. So I could totally see him being possessive like this. I actually don't think of it as a "stalker" at all. Just a loving friend checking up on her... that's all.

I've actually used the "stalker" side of him (either actually watching her or just "thinking" about watching her) in several of my stories. Which we saw Clark *tempted* to watch her also, in the series (HIM for example).

I'm sure I'll catch a lot of flack for those comments, but, oh well. <g>

DJ, that's exactly the way I saw those particular scenes. I thought they had a sort of "what light through yonder window breaks?"-type quality to them. Y'know?

No flak from me, DJ...but I don't agree with you, either . I didn't mean to put words in your mouth, though, and apologize if I did. It sounds like we're coming at stalker!Clark from different directions.

I don't think being in love with someone excuses spying or eavesdropping. How is Clark using his abilities to listen in on Lois's conversations any different from Luthor recording her conversations in BatP/HoL? Luthor claimed to love her deeply and passionately, too, and he probably believed he was looking out for her best interests, but I don't think that makes his eavesdropping right or excusable.

Yes, if Clark had reason to believe that Lois was in immediate physical danger, I would think he'd be excused for spying, but that doesn't seem to be at all the case in the pilot - he was just being nosy there - nor does it seem to be the case in BatP. Which leaves me not liking it much.

At the same time, it's these little things that keep Clark from being too good to be true, and that's not all a bad thing.

Caroline

I think it's perfectly logical and reasonable that Smallville got a lot more screentime than LnC. It's still on the air - which means it has more (active) fans, and if you devote time to it, then you'll get more of those Smallville fans buying your DVD. The current incarnation will almost always get the bulk of screentime.

LnC is often dismissed with the greater Superman family. It's not the same as other Superman fandoms. A lot of comic fans hate LnC (a lot hate Smallville, too, but it's got lots of non-comic fans - though I'd expect most will forget about it once it's off the air). LnC is a very non-traditional Superman and a lot of people don't find LnC's Superman tough enough or have a problem with his physical appearance. And, and I hope I don't get too much flack for this, LnC's Superman isn't that great. I love LnC's Lois and LnC's Clark - my favorite Lois and my favorite Clark, ever. But Dean as Superman has no "oomph" to me, inspires no awe, has no majesty, doesn't evoke that feeling I get inside me that some other Supermans do. LnC is about Lois and Clark more than Superman (hence the title) and is my favorite of all the Superman series, but when you're doing something about Superman through the ages, it's more about Superman, particularly Superman-the-icon, than it is about Clark-the-man.

<DJ puts on her best innocent face>

Because he's Clark.

I'm kidding!!! I do see your point Caroline - even if I choose (stubbornly) to continue to look at Clark's actions differently.

So true Caroline and I think that statement brings us full circle back to the point that Arawn was trying to make. From the things I've seen Arawn post, he feels like the reason he's attracted to LNC rather than other incarnations of Superman is because in LNC, Clark is "real". He is a real guy, with real feelings, emotions, and... issues.

A lot of times we excuse them, because, well... he is *super* after all. But they are the things that make him feel so real.

It's the same way with Lois - I excuse her for some of the idiotic things she did - because they made her seem like a real person. Real people make mistakes and do stupid stuff. Oh, and just to open another can... Lois wasn't above spying on people either. Remember the Mayson/Clark kiss that she spied on? Oh, and then there was the time she followed him to the jewelry store to spy on him robbing it.

I'm sure there are others - any takers?

-- DJ

THANKS FOR WELCOME METRORHODES!!

I agree with DSDragon about the stalker scenes in LNC. They are not my favorite ones but, to me they
were not as eerie as the ones in SR. Also, somewhere in that bts Richard Donner comments about S2. Something to effect that he would not have Lois and Clark sleep together without them married. I could
be wrong. Which I agree should have taken place. Why
Clark/Superman have to be so nice? Atleast in LNC there are one or two times that he stood up to Lois.
In SR he did not.He just stood like a doormat. The movie itself was to dark to me. I thought the director and writers should have lighten up some.Yes, I am very partial to LNC but, I have always loved Superman. I guess because the interviews etc. I have seen or whatever Teri Hatcher and Dean Cain seem to actually be sincere when you hear them reflect on the series. Very gracious to me. But, enough of that. I really wanted to comment on the stalker moments. To me, Clark/Superman did not have a lot meaningful dialog in SR as did in LNC. That is what I love about LNC series. It was not just oh, there is a world threatening dilema and Superman has to fly off to save the day It let you in on the person not the just the action.

Caroline,

Really? Clark knows that Luthor is a murderous megalomanic sociopath and have every reason to believe that the marriage is something that Lois would bitterly regret. Should he really respect their privacy to that degree if he loves her? Sure he has a personal stake, but to me he seemed to look for a way out as much for Lois as himself. Remember that he knows that Lois his for the taking, if he is willing to pay the price. He didn’t hang outside the window when she was seeing Scardino did he?

And in WWW he had tried to get in touch with Lois all night, saw Scardino, didn’t want to show himself and left. I’ never saw that as stalkerish in the least. Rather the opposite in fact.

The pilot scene is difficult to defend though, even if he wanted to see that she had gotten home safely, it doesn't seem like he needed to hang outside her window. Well, it didn’t look like he was peering through the wall at least. :p

Elflinn - you're welcome.

Arawn -

Ha ha ha! Too funny - especially since I was "considering" having him do that very thing in a fic I'm writing right now (involving Dan Scardino, no less).

I just love discussion threads like this one. It really gets the creative juices flowing. <g>

That's almost exactly what I was trying to say.

Well, he hadn't known her that long, and didn't realize he was in love with her yet. I think, in the beginning, Clark felt drawn to Lois--though he didn't know why. That's what I think the scene outside the window in the Pilot was about.

It's like the song Freddy sings in My Fair Lady, "The Street Where You Live:"

When she mentioned how her aunt bit off the spoon,
She completely done me in.
And my heart went on a journey to the moon,
When she told about her father and the gin.
And I never saw a more enchanting farce
Than that moment when she shouted
"move your bloomin' "....

Eliza had committed a faux pas at the races, and Freddy was drawn to that--drawn to her lack of polite veneer. In the same vein, Clark had just spent a day being razzed and put down by Lois.

I have often walked down this street before;
But the pavement always stayed beneath my feet before.
All at once am I Several stories high.
Knowing I'm on the street where you live.
Are there lilac trees in the heart of town?
Can you hear a lark in any other part of town?
Does enchantment pour Out of ev'ry door?
No, it's just on the street where you live!
And oh! The towering feeling
Just to know somehow you are near.
The overpowering feeling
That any second you may suddenly appear!
People stop and stare. They don't bother me.
For there's no where else on earth that I would rather be.
Let the time go by, I won't care if I
Can be here on the street where you live.

Sure, Freddy knows he's in love with Eliza at the time, but I think it's the same type of thing--Clark was drawn to Lois, and felt he had to see where she lived, what she did when she wasn't being her reporter self, etc.

And has been said before, at least Clark wasn't looking through the wall--although he could have. But I got the impression that until Lois walked to the window, he was looking inside it.

Me too, Darcy. <g>

Arawn, I'm not convinced we're on the same page.

DJ said:

And my response to that was that if being "deeply and passionately in love" was a valid excuse for eavesdropping, then we would have to excuse Luthor as well*. He tapes Lois's conversation with Clark - and probably other conversations too - and we the viewers see it as a terrible invasion of her privacy. But when Clark does it, we give him a pass because he's a nice guy who looks darn good in those tights. It's still an invasion of her privacy, though.

(*Though actually, I never got the feeling in first season that Luthor "loved" Lois so much as wanted to possess her, but the writers later showed - most tiresomely - that he was quite obsessively in love with her - or at least as 'in love' as he knew how to be. Whatever.)

You said: Short answer: yes, in my opinion.

Long answer: Certainly, Clark knew that Luthor was dangerous. But was that really why he watched their engagement? If so, if he was really concerned for her safety, why didn't he just swoop in there and get her out? Why didn't he offer her Superman, as you pointed out? Instead, he flies off and yells at glaciers, which made a touching scene for the viewers but didn't do one blessed thing to keep Lois safe from the murderous megalomaniac sociopath.

Nor was it necessary for him to actually watch the engagement to find out it had come to pass. Even if he and Lois were no longer on speaking terms, he'd have heard about the engagement through the grapevine or through the media, which would have been all over it the minute it was announced. There was no reason - other than the writers doing it for their own convenience and for the drama of the thing - for Clark to be hanging about outside that window. Lots and lots of other ways it could have been handled that would have been less squicky and more in character, in my opinion.

I do agree with you about the scene in WWW, though. I'd forgotten it until Lisa mentioned it, but I don't see that one as being a deliberate invasion of Lois's privacy.

Caroline

Don't forget the countless times Clark "spied" on Lois' phone calls with super hearing.

The question is, because of his super abilities, is listening with his full capacity any different from someone overhearing something by listening at their full capacity?

DS,
That could be it and that was a very beatiful piece, I think it’s not unusual that you just suddenly find yourself at the home or school of your love interest just to soak up the feeling and nothing more. Clark simply move in three dimensions. Glad we can acquit Clark on the charge of stalking.
Now I’m starting to feel hypocritical on Brandon Routh’s behalf. And I agree being deeply and passionately in love doesn’t excuse eavesdropping per se, a stalker certainly care both deeply and passionately about the victim. I suspect it depends on the circumstances and who is asking. If the right person is obsessively in love with you, it’s not creepy it’s just very romantic.
If you go to S4 I got the impression that Clark’s love for Lois was deeper then what was really healthy.

Oh, I didn’t think he thought she was in any immediate danger, Luthor had certainly demonstrated that he cared a great del for Lois. To me, he was watching for a sign that she was vacillating. Some reason for why he should come clean with her and trust her. Accepting Luthors proposal just wasn’t it. I saw the eavesdropping as an expression of how desperate he was in finding a solution. It wasn’t simply knowing that Lois was engaged but how she acted during the proposal.

You see he could have been digging up the dirt on Luthor instead, but ultimately that didn’t matter. Whoever, whatever Luthor was it was Lois feelings that was the linchpin. Everything else he could control or overpower at his leisure.

Sure, the scriptwriters didn’t need to show Clark peeping but it was a rather effective narrative IMO and I didn’t feel it was out of a desperate Clarks character and consider myself rather sensitive on OCC issues, the show has a million of them.

See, that's why I enjoy conversations like this: I would never have read the scene that way in a million bazillion years, but...yeah, that makes sense.

I've always kind of thought that Clark had already given up at that point, but yes, if he was still considering whether to trust her, that would explain his presence there far, far better than anything I'd been imagining. I still don't really think the spying is ethically right (obviously, this stalking/spying thing is just an issue with me) but it does make it seem far less OOC for Clark. So, thank you for giving me an interpretation I can live with.

Betcha can't do it with the Pilot scene, though .

C.

I’m not sure that it gets more praise. Does it really? I think a lot of the popularity is because it is more geared toward teens and young adults, whereas, that wasn’t so with LnC. I like Smallville, but I sometimes find it so far away from any Superman canon as to be unbelievable. I mean, with all that Clark has done on that show and as many people who know about him, how is he ever going to be expected to really have a secret identity?

I also think that some of the networks are starting to see the value of keeping shows around longer because the fans want it that way. I read or saw a Tom Welling interview where he said he doubted that the show would go into a 5th season (or it could have been ‘beyond’ a 5th season) because everything had already been done. Well, now they are in the 6th season.

And weren’t the producers of Smallville somehow involved in Look Up in the Sky?

I think that most of the Superman fans who don’t like Routh’s portrayal (or Dean Cain’s for that matter) of Superman are the fanboys who think the Christopher Reeve reigns supreme. (And I don’t want this to sound rude or mean, but until he had the accident, a lot of people thought his Superman wasn’t all that great, either.)


I think that’s because a lot of people haven’t given it a chance. I mean it originally ran on Sunday nights (not the best time slot) and the reruns here in the States were in the early, early morning. There couldn’t be a huge amount of folks out there who have had the chance to watch and learn to love LnC. I kept hoping that with the movie, LnC would once again go into reruns, but that doesn’t seem as if it will happen. Of course, the Smallville folks might be doing something to block LnC reruns.


No great loss with them glossing over that series. Sure John Haymes Newton and Gerard Christopher were pretty to look at, but the series was bizarre. (Or at least I thought it was.)


Hmm… I didn’t particularly think the movie was that dark. But Dean Cain’s version is definitely more endearing. But the idea of having a kid out of wedlock or having an affair type of thing is not completely out of line from the comics. I mean, good grief, Superman had an affair with Wonderwoman in the comics (and wasn’t he involved with Lois when it happened?) Mind you, I’m not saying I like it. I think some of the things that happened in SR showed a more human side of the character. (And the kid out of wedlock was set up in Superman II, and that came out in 1980.)


Yep, he sure did.


Oh, I didn’t think this at all. I thought he was full of sorrow because he was no longer really a part of her life. I never saw any huge indication that he was trying to wreck her relationship with Richard. He just gave into his desire (and maybe he shouldn’t have) to see her.


Clark also said this in LnC. In the pilot he told Lois: I’ll be around.


That just goes to show that all of us (even Clark) sometime do things that are out of character. I never thought that he was watching her to be creepy or stalker like. I just took it that he was worried and concerned about her. And hey, if any of us were worried about someone, and could take a little peak, I’d bet a lot of us would do it. Of course, there is peaking and then there is peaking if you get my drift and I don’t think Clark did any of the last type. He always turns away before he sees anything that he really shouldn’t.


No, he doesn’t bother me either because he’s not doing it for nefarious reasons.


Because Clark didn’t have it on tape and he wasn’t doing it for the evil reason that Luthor was.


Yes, that is probably true.


I can see this for sure. Dean Cain had to win me over. When I first found out he was playing Clark Kent / Superman, I was mortified. Superman was supposed to be bigger and he was supposed to have pretty blue eyes that you could drown in. (But he did win me over - in the first episode, and I think he is the best of all the people who have played Superman / Clark Kent.) I didn’t particularly think much of Teri Hatcher’s Lois Lane, either, and it took a lot longer for her to win me over - especially since the Lois Lane character was so darn mean to Clark in the first season. (But that all said, I still loved the show from the beginning, and I never missed an episode.)


Exactly. LnC Clark is real. He makes mistakes. He gets hurt. He has feelings.


Lois made a science out of spying.


Yes, she did some stupid stuff. But I really had a hard time getting over the way Lois treated Clark in the first season. She didn’t even give him the courtesy of treating him like a co-worker. She treated him like a doormat - like dirt under her feet.


Might make an interesting story if he had flown in and offered himself to her as Superman.


Squicky? What’s that mean?


Yes, I agree. He was desperate.

Which makes it in-character for her. Though in her defense, I don't think she's all that guilty in the two instances named. When she spied on the Mayson kiss, she had approached the door for an innocent reason and almost couldn't help seeing what she saw. She didn't go there for the purpose of spying on Clark. And when she followed him to the jewelry store, he was in public. Granted, she'd have probably spied on him in private if she could have found a way, but watching someone walk down a street isn't quite the same as hovering outside his windows.

Still, I agree that Lois had fewer scruples than Clark when it came to spying, so I'm not jarred by it when she does something like that. It's far more in-character for her.

With Clark, in the pilot at least, it just isn't to me. He didn't know either Lois or Luthor well enough to be sick with worry over their date, and there is no reasonable explanation for him to be hanging around outside her third/fifth story window eavesdropping on her conversation with her sister. I can't find it in me to romanticize that, and I can't find it in-character for Clark, either.

"Squick" is fanspeak, I'm afraid - one of those terms that has, for better or for worse, made its way into my vocabulary. I believe it's a combination of the words "squirm" and "ick". If something squicks you, it makes you uncomfortable or repulses you. Squicky is the adjective form...and apparently I find peeping toms squicky!

Caroline

Tzigone,
But AFIAK, LNC is pretty true to the comics, the difference seem to be that LnC elevate the love story from a B to an A-plot. But even in the comics he is married to Lois, right?
And compared with Smallville where Clark has teenage rebellions and substance abuse and whatnot that isn’t much of a difference.


DJ,
Well, yes, as real as someone that wield nearly limitless power could be. When I see the classical Superman, the kryptonian, I just wonder why is he so good? Why would this guy care about humans? He doesn’t really seem to want to be human, he is just very comfortable in his powers and identity. Clark Kent seems asocial and an act, I never really get his purpose. I’ve heard said that Superman use him to wind down, but I don’t get why playing a nerd is so relaxing. Also I don’t get the aloofness, why keep his distance emotionally from humans if he cares so much?

Since you never really get to know what makes him tick you never get to know what constitute a difficult decision for him.

In contrast a lot of traits flows out of Clarks upbringing and powers the post-crisis version.
For example, Clark stand up for what he believes in but he isn’t particularly assertive, he likes to do a good job but don’t seem to care about money, status etc, which make sense, if you can do anything, it’s completely pointless to keep score. The equanimity and a cheerfulness which he took Lois scorn confounded her, but the viewer knows why.

No, but she isn’t Superman. Superman is supposed to have extraordinarily high moral standards. Los is an inconsiderate and ruthless girl. Ripping out pages of phonebooks?, Stealing a story from a rookie that just started at the job etc.

Nancy,
Really he hits on her every chance he gets, fully aware that she lives in a family like relationship. And he isn’t exactly subtle about it.
How about the best line the movie:

Lois: Richard takes me flying all the time.
Superman;”(slyly) Not like this.


In contrast to the L&C superman this guy is perfectly comfortable with Lois choosing him for his powers. Not so strange perhaps, after all he left her for five years without saying goodbye, after knocking her up, I guess some shallowness is in character.


Yeah, but he wasn’t the father of her child either.

With bigger I assume you mean taller? Because Cain certainly looked pumped to me, he even moves like a wrestler or footballer a sure indication of serious muscle mass.
Even Reeves didn’t seem that massive to me.

Caroline,
You are most welcome, I’m happy if could have offered you something in return for the hours of entertainment you have provided me.

Yes, I suppose I mean taller and even more built (think the comics). But yes, Dean Cain is at least, if not more, built that Chris Reeve was. I always wanted to shake Clark on LnC and say, "You are Superman! Hold your shoulders back. Quit slumping." I think if he had done that then he would have come across as bigger. (But then Chris Reeve also slumped.)

Yes there are times when Superman spied on Lois in LnC because he was worried for her safety. But I often wondered if at other times he went to her apartment to visit as Superman just to get some positive attention from her but then didn't because it just reinforced her crush. I just didn't find it creepy.

I love LnC because of Dean's take on the characters he played. Though Reeves is hailed the greatest Superman/Clark I don't agree. Clark was played as a bumbling oaf while Superman came off as a "god". Dean's Clark was more real and what I would expect of him being raise by Martha and Jon. Someone deperately wanting to fit in, hating his differences but then finally finding a way to "fit in" by becoming Superman. Then Dean's Superman was more of a hero in my book because he just wanted to help. He had doubts but didn't let others see them, except for his parents and eventually Lois. He did the best he could as a man with these incredible abilities.

I just saw SR and couldn't believe the similarity to Superman I. Most of Superman's dialog was right out of the movie - in SI after saving Lois and the copter he says about flying being the safest, then Lois faints. In SR they use the same line then Lois faints. The blowing out her lighter was taken from an episode of LnC. Lois and Clark are getting on the elevators in the Planet and he keeps blowing out a lighter or match of some guy trying to light a cigarette who is also planning on getting on the same elevator.

As to the comment of it being dark - maybe a little but I mostly found it to be a set up for SRII. Luthor was used as the reason to have Superman flying around saving the day but everything else seemed to be a set-up for a larger story between Lois and Clark/Superman.

As for Superman trying to sabotage Richard and didn't see that. Was he upset that Richard was in her life - yes he wants her back. The only thing I saw as trying to undermine Richard was the almost kiss. Big deal. She is not married nor does she seem so committed if she can't commit to a wedding date. She says he's a good man, not that she loves him. She to me is using Richard as a substitute for Superman because he left.

And of course this is just my humble opinion.

If someone is outside my window I hope to hell it is Clark.

Nancy,

Something like this?

The Rock is Superman

kmar,

This is exactly as I see it.
In the original superman movie, when asked about his goals he deliver the classic truth, justice, american way spiel, Lois laugh at him since it sounds so pretentious,
But Superman quickly takes her down with “I mean every word.” The trouble is that this mission statement sounds like something coming out of political pamphlet, like someone who really doesn’t have a clue how the ordinary human thinks. In LnC, Superman simply say “to help” it’s Lois that adds the sound bite. I love his deliberation where he slowly thinks loud -truth ..justice, that sounds good, you can use that. He isn’t so much a crusader, as someone that can stand by and see people suffer anymore, which makes him more real to me.

I thought that one was a really cool homage. But yeah, that the plot, villain, scenery, mannerism, in general was recycled made it get pretty thin in the end.

I remember that the next time I wonder whether a girl is available.

Which doesn’t really make me root for her. Richard obviously cares a great deal, but she is simply living with him until something better comes along.

What makes Superman Returns great to me is Brandon's Superman and the special effects. I found KB not only to be horribly miscast as Lois (she looks all of 16 years old!), I just don't like the choices she's made IRT Richard. I've discussed this with other people and the only explanations for her actions I can see are the following:

1) The mindwipe kiss at the end of SII made her forget everything and when Supes left she felt rejected and got involved with Richard. Since she didn't remember her relationship with Superman, I can see how she would be able to move on that quickly. Then, when she found herself pregnant, she assumed it was Richard's and so did Richard. In that case, though, I find the ending very dissatisfying. In my mind, Lois would never let Superman just fly off like that without confronting him about Jason.

2) She knew Jason was Superman's and she let Richard believe he was his. In which case I would find her behavior despicable and in my eyes there would be no excuse for it. Talk about destroying a character.

3) Richard knows Jason is not his son, but he does not know that Superman is Jason's father. In which case Lois must've told him she doesn't know who the father is. Either she lied, or maybe she really didn't know, given the mindwipe kiss. However, see option 1 for why the ending doesn't work for me, then.

Maybe there's another explanation I haven't thought of, so please feel free to enlighten me. But all the ones listed just aren't satisfying to me, because either Lois is a liar who's using Richard, or she's just really passive after finding out Jason is Superman's son, which is so far OOC for her that no fanwank could make me accept it. I would expect her to confront him and slap him. Hard. Not let him get away with that "I'm always around" crap.

So, to make a long post short, I like SR because of Brandon's Superman and the FX, certainly not because of Lois. And I love L&C because of Lois and Clark and how they work so well together. Now, if we had gotten LACTNAOS in combination with SR's effects I could have died a happy FoLC .

I don't think that Superman's line was meant to wreck her relationship with Richard.

More, it seemed to me that Lois is very confused at this point--up until that day and for the last five years, she'd thought that Richard was the only man in her life.

Then out of the blue (no pun intended), her "boyfriend's" back, whom she loved (despite what she told Richard at the house to stop him asking her about Superman) deeply and who left her alone for five years.

I think Lois's line above was more to try and gain back some equilibrium, because Superman was taking her flying, and she--stubborn woman that Lois Lane is--was sticking to her guns about Richard at the time.

Superman's reply was merely an observation about the difference between Richard's flying capabilities and his--I didn't hear anything malicious in it at all.

I don't think she was either. I think she's still confused, and she, Richard, and Superman have a lot of issues to work out.

But I do think, from his "speech" to the sleeping Jason, that Superman will at least want to be around--specifically around Lois's house and Jason--more often, now that he knows he's a father. I caught quite a bit of awe in Superman's delivery of that speech (which, granted, was copied from Jor-El's speech to him, but didn't lose any emotion in the re-telling), like he was awed to be a father, that he actually had a SON . . . someone LIVING who he could call his own flesh and blood.

And now, since we're definitely getting a sequel to SR, we'll be able to see what goes on in that regard too.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, DSDragon. No amount of confusion on Lois' part would make me buy the ending. Sorry.

I guess I'm also kind of pissed that there were so many questions raised and left unanswered. I hate not knowing what's going on. And I don't care if there's a sequel, because the way they handled it definitely lessened my enjoyment of the movie. No sequel will be able to fix that.

Just as an aside, I never particularly cared for the Jason plotline anyway. I don't want to see L&C as parents. That's just not something I find interesting.

hat hair. Sorry, DJ, couldn't resist.

There is a great story addressing this by MLT, Midnight Gambit. Although it's not at the point of proposal, instead it's right before the wedding.

It always irritated me that Clark didn't take those extra steps in the show. Either have Superman tell Lois his suspicions about Luthor or just come clean about his identity. Either one probably would have been effective in stopping the wedding, so the fact that he did neither says to me that his love for Lois had limits. He was willing to allow her to marry Luthor instead of exposing himself. But when Lois decided she loved Clark, her love had no limits. She risked her very life to save his parents. To me, that is a very interesting and telling contrast.

Yes, but in the movies I always get the impression that he views himself as Superman first and CK second instead of the other way around. That irritates me to no end, but it does make this understandable. His powers are who he is.

I agree.

Well, I didn't hear malicious, but I did hear sly. And I can't blame the guy for pointing out certain advantages.

I guess the only thing that bothered me about SR and Jason was that Clark didn't come clean with Lois at the end. If he is going to be a father, then his Clark persona is going to have to come into play. But, as I mentioned above, part of the problem is that he doesn't view Clark as his real self, which leads to a very unsatisfying situation for me. This would not have been a problem in L&C, which is why I loved the show. Clark was Clark. Superman was an outfit.

I dont know about Superman's love having limits, but he was kinda wasted on the floor of a glowing green cage as the wedding went on above him.

Yes, and it is true that we don't know what he would have done at the wedding if he had been able to, although I have a hard time seeing Superman running in to stop a wedding at the last minute! But my point is that it didn't have to get that far to begin with.

DSD,
She has been living with a guy, raising a kid together for five years and needs to get back her equilibrium when her former lover turns up. You consider Lois stubborn for not immediately ditching her loser boyfriend?

If guy starts to explain why his car or… equipment etc are superior to your boyfriend’s, I think you better assume he is hitting on you.

MM,
We don’t know what he would have done. And Clark’s secret isn’t his alone. If she had ended up as Luthor’s wife, she would hardly been the best person to know it.

Which makes the love story uninteresting to me, why shouldn’t Superman be able to get the girl? Not caring whether he is loved for what he can do instead for who he is, makes him amazingly shallow IMO.

I think you can, if you go out of your way to wreck a family. Not that Lois needed much encouragement to start cheating on her boyfriend.

But if he had, the suspense for a sequel might not be so great (for some, anyway). I think that's the single reason that Smallville has been so successful--it's like watching a soap opera. They never give you what you want, and if they do, they find a way to take it back. If LnC had drawn out the revelation and relationship longer, who knows how long the series might have lasted? That's always been my thought anyway.

I think the things that bother us the most are often ploys to keep us coming back for more.