Lois & Clark Forums Forums General Discussion Lois & Clark I have question?

Don't forget the countless times Clark "spied" on Lois' phone calls with super hearing.

The question is, because of his super abilities, is listening with his full capacity any different from someone overhearing something by listening at their full capacity?

DS,
That could be it and that was a very beatiful piece, I think it’s not unusual that you just suddenly find yourself at the home or school of your love interest just to soak up the feeling and nothing more. Clark simply move in three dimensions. Glad we can acquit Clark on the charge of stalking.
Now I’m starting to feel hypocritical on Brandon Routh’s behalf. And I agree being deeply and passionately in love doesn’t excuse eavesdropping per se, a stalker certainly care both deeply and passionately about the victim. I suspect it depends on the circumstances and who is asking. If the right person is obsessively in love with you, it’s not creepy it’s just very romantic.
If you go to S4 I got the impression that Clark’s love for Lois was deeper then what was really healthy.

Oh, I didn’t think he thought she was in any immediate danger, Luthor had certainly demonstrated that he cared a great del for Lois. To me, he was watching for a sign that she was vacillating. Some reason for why he should come clean with her and trust her. Accepting Luthors proposal just wasn’t it. I saw the eavesdropping as an expression of how desperate he was in finding a solution. It wasn’t simply knowing that Lois was engaged but how she acted during the proposal.

You see he could have been digging up the dirt on Luthor instead, but ultimately that didn’t matter. Whoever, whatever Luthor was it was Lois feelings that was the linchpin. Everything else he could control or overpower at his leisure.

Sure, the scriptwriters didn’t need to show Clark peeping but it was a rather effective narrative IMO and I didn’t feel it was out of a desperate Clarks character and consider myself rather sensitive on OCC issues, the show has a million of them.

See, that's why I enjoy conversations like this: I would never have read the scene that way in a million bazillion years, but...yeah, that makes sense.

I've always kind of thought that Clark had already given up at that point, but yes, if he was still considering whether to trust her, that would explain his presence there far, far better than anything I'd been imagining. I still don't really think the spying is ethically right (obviously, this stalking/spying thing is just an issue with me) but it does make it seem far less OOC for Clark. So, thank you for giving me an interpretation I can live with.

Betcha can't do it with the Pilot scene, though .

C.

I’m not sure that it gets more praise. Does it really? I think a lot of the popularity is because it is more geared toward teens and young adults, whereas, that wasn’t so with LnC. I like Smallville, but I sometimes find it so far away from any Superman canon as to be unbelievable. I mean, with all that Clark has done on that show and as many people who know about him, how is he ever going to be expected to really have a secret identity?

I also think that some of the networks are starting to see the value of keeping shows around longer because the fans want it that way. I read or saw a Tom Welling interview where he said he doubted that the show would go into a 5th season (or it could have been ‘beyond’ a 5th season) because everything had already been done. Well, now they are in the 6th season.

And weren’t the producers of Smallville somehow involved in Look Up in the Sky?

I think that most of the Superman fans who don’t like Routh’s portrayal (or Dean Cain’s for that matter) of Superman are the fanboys who think the Christopher Reeve reigns supreme. (And I don’t want this to sound rude or mean, but until he had the accident, a lot of people thought his Superman wasn’t all that great, either.)


I think that’s because a lot of people haven’t given it a chance. I mean it originally ran on Sunday nights (not the best time slot) and the reruns here in the States were in the early, early morning. There couldn’t be a huge amount of folks out there who have had the chance to watch and learn to love LnC. I kept hoping that with the movie, LnC would once again go into reruns, but that doesn’t seem as if it will happen. Of course, the Smallville folks might be doing something to block LnC reruns.


No great loss with them glossing over that series. Sure John Haymes Newton and Gerard Christopher were pretty to look at, but the series was bizarre. (Or at least I thought it was.)


Hmm… I didn’t particularly think the movie was that dark. But Dean Cain’s version is definitely more endearing. But the idea of having a kid out of wedlock or having an affair type of thing is not completely out of line from the comics. I mean, good grief, Superman had an affair with Wonderwoman in the comics (and wasn’t he involved with Lois when it happened?) Mind you, I’m not saying I like it. I think some of the things that happened in SR showed a more human side of the character. (And the kid out of wedlock was set up in Superman II, and that came out in 1980.)


Yep, he sure did.


Oh, I didn’t think this at all. I thought he was full of sorrow because he was no longer really a part of her life. I never saw any huge indication that he was trying to wreck her relationship with Richard. He just gave into his desire (and maybe he shouldn’t have) to see her.


Clark also said this in LnC. In the pilot he told Lois: I’ll be around.


That just goes to show that all of us (even Clark) sometime do things that are out of character. I never thought that he was watching her to be creepy or stalker like. I just took it that he was worried and concerned about her. And hey, if any of us were worried about someone, and could take a little peak, I’d bet a lot of us would do it. Of course, there is peaking and then there is peaking if you get my drift and I don’t think Clark did any of the last type. He always turns away before he sees anything that he really shouldn’t.


No, he doesn’t bother me either because he’s not doing it for nefarious reasons.


Because Clark didn’t have it on tape and he wasn’t doing it for the evil reason that Luthor was.


Yes, that is probably true.


I can see this for sure. Dean Cain had to win me over. When I first found out he was playing Clark Kent / Superman, I was mortified. Superman was supposed to be bigger and he was supposed to have pretty blue eyes that you could drown in. (But he did win me over - in the first episode, and I think he is the best of all the people who have played Superman / Clark Kent.) I didn’t particularly think much of Teri Hatcher’s Lois Lane, either, and it took a lot longer for her to win me over - especially since the Lois Lane character was so darn mean to Clark in the first season. (But that all said, I still loved the show from the beginning, and I never missed an episode.)


Exactly. LnC Clark is real. He makes mistakes. He gets hurt. He has feelings.


Lois made a science out of spying.


Yes, she did some stupid stuff. But I really had a hard time getting over the way Lois treated Clark in the first season. She didn’t even give him the courtesy of treating him like a co-worker. She treated him like a doormat - like dirt under her feet.


Might make an interesting story if he had flown in and offered himself to her as Superman.


Squicky? What’s that mean?


Yes, I agree. He was desperate.

Which makes it in-character for her. Though in her defense, I don't think she's all that guilty in the two instances named. When she spied on the Mayson kiss, she had approached the door for an innocent reason and almost couldn't help seeing what she saw. She didn't go there for the purpose of spying on Clark. And when she followed him to the jewelry store, he was in public. Granted, she'd have probably spied on him in private if she could have found a way, but watching someone walk down a street isn't quite the same as hovering outside his windows.

Still, I agree that Lois had fewer scruples than Clark when it came to spying, so I'm not jarred by it when she does something like that. It's far more in-character for her.

With Clark, in the pilot at least, it just isn't to me. He didn't know either Lois or Luthor well enough to be sick with worry over their date, and there is no reasonable explanation for him to be hanging around outside her third/fifth story window eavesdropping on her conversation with her sister. I can't find it in me to romanticize that, and I can't find it in-character for Clark, either.

"Squick" is fanspeak, I'm afraid - one of those terms that has, for better or for worse, made its way into my vocabulary. I believe it's a combination of the words "squirm" and "ick". If something squicks you, it makes you uncomfortable or repulses you. Squicky is the adjective form...and apparently I find peeping toms squicky!

Caroline

Tzigone,
But AFIAK, LNC is pretty true to the comics, the difference seem to be that LnC elevate the love story from a B to an A-plot. But even in the comics he is married to Lois, right?
And compared with Smallville where Clark has teenage rebellions and substance abuse and whatnot that isn’t much of a difference.


DJ,
Well, yes, as real as someone that wield nearly limitless power could be. When I see the classical Superman, the kryptonian, I just wonder why is he so good? Why would this guy care about humans? He doesn’t really seem to want to be human, he is just very comfortable in his powers and identity. Clark Kent seems asocial and an act, I never really get his purpose. I’ve heard said that Superman use him to wind down, but I don’t get why playing a nerd is so relaxing. Also I don’t get the aloofness, why keep his distance emotionally from humans if he cares so much?

Since you never really get to know what makes him tick you never get to know what constitute a difficult decision for him.

In contrast a lot of traits flows out of Clarks upbringing and powers the post-crisis version.
For example, Clark stand up for what he believes in but he isn’t particularly assertive, he likes to do a good job but don’t seem to care about money, status etc, which make sense, if you can do anything, it’s completely pointless to keep score. The equanimity and a cheerfulness which he took Lois scorn confounded her, but the viewer knows why.

No, but she isn’t Superman. Superman is supposed to have extraordinarily high moral standards. Los is an inconsiderate and ruthless girl. Ripping out pages of phonebooks?, Stealing a story from a rookie that just started at the job etc.

Nancy,
Really he hits on her every chance he gets, fully aware that she lives in a family like relationship. And he isn’t exactly subtle about it.
How about the best line the movie:

Lois: Richard takes me flying all the time.
Superman;”(slyly) Not like this.


In contrast to the L&C superman this guy is perfectly comfortable with Lois choosing him for his powers. Not so strange perhaps, after all he left her for five years without saying goodbye, after knocking her up, I guess some shallowness is in character.


Yeah, but he wasn’t the father of her child either.

With bigger I assume you mean taller? Because Cain certainly looked pumped to me, he even moves like a wrestler or footballer a sure indication of serious muscle mass.
Even Reeves didn’t seem that massive to me.

Caroline,
You are most welcome, I’m happy if could have offered you something in return for the hours of entertainment you have provided me.

Yes, I suppose I mean taller and even more built (think the comics). But yes, Dean Cain is at least, if not more, built that Chris Reeve was. I always wanted to shake Clark on LnC and say, "You are Superman! Hold your shoulders back. Quit slumping." I think if he had done that then he would have come across as bigger. (But then Chris Reeve also slumped.)

Yes there are times when Superman spied on Lois in LnC because he was worried for her safety. But I often wondered if at other times he went to her apartment to visit as Superman just to get some positive attention from her but then didn't because it just reinforced her crush. I just didn't find it creepy.

I love LnC because of Dean's take on the characters he played. Though Reeves is hailed the greatest Superman/Clark I don't agree. Clark was played as a bumbling oaf while Superman came off as a "god". Dean's Clark was more real and what I would expect of him being raise by Martha and Jon. Someone deperately wanting to fit in, hating his differences but then finally finding a way to "fit in" by becoming Superman. Then Dean's Superman was more of a hero in my book because he just wanted to help. He had doubts but didn't let others see them, except for his parents and eventually Lois. He did the best he could as a man with these incredible abilities.

I just saw SR and couldn't believe the similarity to Superman I. Most of Superman's dialog was right out of the movie - in SI after saving Lois and the copter he says about flying being the safest, then Lois faints. In SR they use the same line then Lois faints. The blowing out her lighter was taken from an episode of LnC. Lois and Clark are getting on the elevators in the Planet and he keeps blowing out a lighter or match of some guy trying to light a cigarette who is also planning on getting on the same elevator.

As to the comment of it being dark - maybe a little but I mostly found it to be a set up for SRII. Luthor was used as the reason to have Superman flying around saving the day but everything else seemed to be a set-up for a larger story between Lois and Clark/Superman.

As for Superman trying to sabotage Richard and didn't see that. Was he upset that Richard was in her life - yes he wants her back. The only thing I saw as trying to undermine Richard was the almost kiss. Big deal. She is not married nor does she seem so committed if she can't commit to a wedding date. She says he's a good man, not that she loves him. She to me is using Richard as a substitute for Superman because he left.

And of course this is just my humble opinion.

If someone is outside my window I hope to hell it is Clark.

Nancy,

Something like this?

The Rock is Superman

kmar,

This is exactly as I see it.
In the original superman movie, when asked about his goals he deliver the classic truth, justice, american way spiel, Lois laugh at him since it sounds so pretentious,
But Superman quickly takes her down with “I mean every word.” The trouble is that this mission statement sounds like something coming out of political pamphlet, like someone who really doesn’t have a clue how the ordinary human thinks. In LnC, Superman simply say “to help” it’s Lois that adds the sound bite. I love his deliberation where he slowly thinks loud -truth ..justice, that sounds good, you can use that. He isn’t so much a crusader, as someone that can stand by and see people suffer anymore, which makes him more real to me.

I thought that one was a really cool homage. But yeah, that the plot, villain, scenery, mannerism, in general was recycled made it get pretty thin in the end.

I remember that the next time I wonder whether a girl is available.

Which doesn’t really make me root for her. Richard obviously cares a great deal, but she is simply living with him until something better comes along.

What makes Superman Returns great to me is Brandon's Superman and the special effects. I found KB not only to be horribly miscast as Lois (she looks all of 16 years old!), I just don't like the choices she's made IRT Richard. I've discussed this with other people and the only explanations for her actions I can see are the following:

1) The mindwipe kiss at the end of SII made her forget everything and when Supes left she felt rejected and got involved with Richard. Since she didn't remember her relationship with Superman, I can see how she would be able to move on that quickly. Then, when she found herself pregnant, she assumed it was Richard's and so did Richard. In that case, though, I find the ending very dissatisfying. In my mind, Lois would never let Superman just fly off like that without confronting him about Jason.

2) She knew Jason was Superman's and she let Richard believe he was his. In which case I would find her behavior despicable and in my eyes there would be no excuse for it. Talk about destroying a character.

3) Richard knows Jason is not his son, but he does not know that Superman is Jason's father. In which case Lois must've told him she doesn't know who the father is. Either she lied, or maybe she really didn't know, given the mindwipe kiss. However, see option 1 for why the ending doesn't work for me, then.

Maybe there's another explanation I haven't thought of, so please feel free to enlighten me. But all the ones listed just aren't satisfying to me, because either Lois is a liar who's using Richard, or she's just really passive after finding out Jason is Superman's son, which is so far OOC for her that no fanwank could make me accept it. I would expect her to confront him and slap him. Hard. Not let him get away with that "I'm always around" crap.

So, to make a long post short, I like SR because of Brandon's Superman and the FX, certainly not because of Lois. And I love L&C because of Lois and Clark and how they work so well together. Now, if we had gotten LACTNAOS in combination with SR's effects I could have died a happy FoLC .

I don't think that Superman's line was meant to wreck her relationship with Richard.

More, it seemed to me that Lois is very confused at this point--up until that day and for the last five years, she'd thought that Richard was the only man in her life.

Then out of the blue (no pun intended), her "boyfriend's" back, whom she loved (despite what she told Richard at the house to stop him asking her about Superman) deeply and who left her alone for five years.

I think Lois's line above was more to try and gain back some equilibrium, because Superman was taking her flying, and she--stubborn woman that Lois Lane is--was sticking to her guns about Richard at the time.

Superman's reply was merely an observation about the difference between Richard's flying capabilities and his--I didn't hear anything malicious in it at all.

I don't think she was either. I think she's still confused, and she, Richard, and Superman have a lot of issues to work out.

But I do think, from his "speech" to the sleeping Jason, that Superman will at least want to be around--specifically around Lois's house and Jason--more often, now that he knows he's a father. I caught quite a bit of awe in Superman's delivery of that speech (which, granted, was copied from Jor-El's speech to him, but didn't lose any emotion in the re-telling), like he was awed to be a father, that he actually had a SON . . . someone LIVING who he could call his own flesh and blood.

And now, since we're definitely getting a sequel to SR, we'll be able to see what goes on in that regard too.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, DSDragon. No amount of confusion on Lois' part would make me buy the ending. Sorry.

I guess I'm also kind of pissed that there were so many questions raised and left unanswered. I hate not knowing what's going on. And I don't care if there's a sequel, because the way they handled it definitely lessened my enjoyment of the movie. No sequel will be able to fix that.

Just as an aside, I never particularly cared for the Jason plotline anyway. I don't want to see L&C as parents. That's just not something I find interesting.

hat hair. Sorry, DJ, couldn't resist.

There is a great story addressing this by MLT, Midnight Gambit. Although it's not at the point of proposal, instead it's right before the wedding.

It always irritated me that Clark didn't take those extra steps in the show. Either have Superman tell Lois his suspicions about Luthor or just come clean about his identity. Either one probably would have been effective in stopping the wedding, so the fact that he did neither says to me that his love for Lois had limits. He was willing to allow her to marry Luthor instead of exposing himself. But when Lois decided she loved Clark, her love had no limits. She risked her very life to save his parents. To me, that is a very interesting and telling contrast.

Yes, but in the movies I always get the impression that he views himself as Superman first and CK second instead of the other way around. That irritates me to no end, but it does make this understandable. His powers are who he is.

I agree.

Well, I didn't hear malicious, but I did hear sly. And I can't blame the guy for pointing out certain advantages.

I guess the only thing that bothered me about SR and Jason was that Clark didn't come clean with Lois at the end. If he is going to be a father, then his Clark persona is going to have to come into play. But, as I mentioned above, part of the problem is that he doesn't view Clark as his real self, which leads to a very unsatisfying situation for me. This would not have been a problem in L&C, which is why I loved the show. Clark was Clark. Superman was an outfit.

I dont know about Superman's love having limits, but he was kinda wasted on the floor of a glowing green cage as the wedding went on above him.

Yes, and it is true that we don't know what he would have done at the wedding if he had been able to, although I have a hard time seeing Superman running in to stop a wedding at the last minute! But my point is that it didn't have to get that far to begin with.

DSD,
She has been living with a guy, raising a kid together for five years and needs to get back her equilibrium when her former lover turns up. You consider Lois stubborn for not immediately ditching her loser boyfriend?

If guy starts to explain why his car or… equipment etc are superior to your boyfriend’s, I think you better assume he is hitting on you.

MM,
We don’t know what he would have done. And Clark’s secret isn’t his alone. If she had ended up as Luthor’s wife, she would hardly been the best person to know it.

Which makes the love story uninteresting to me, why shouldn’t Superman be able to get the girl? Not caring whether he is loved for what he can do instead for who he is, makes him amazingly shallow IMO.

I think you can, if you go out of your way to wreck a family. Not that Lois needed much encouragement to start cheating on her boyfriend.

But if he had, the suspense for a sequel might not be so great (for some, anyway). I think that's the single reason that Smallville has been so successful--it's like watching a soap opera. They never give you what you want, and if they do, they find a way to take it back. If LnC had drawn out the revelation and relationship longer, who knows how long the series might have lasted? That's always been my thought anyway.

I think the things that bother us the most are often ploys to keep us coming back for more.