Lois & Clark Forums Forums General Discussion Lois & Clark I have question?

I have just seen the Look, up in the sky!: The Amazing story of SUPERMAN! c/o of my 7 yr. old niece
who loves LnC. She discovered them through my DVDs.

I was wondering if it was my imagination or they did not have a whole lot on the LnC Series. They mentioned it. Dean himself partakes in it the documentary/bts. But, there is not a alot of footage of him as Superman as there is as Smallville footage. I mean I know that Smallville is still on the air,but, it seemed more positive towards Smallville. I may just must be bias. But, I do not think so.

And, I think, I am not sure, that the director of the Superman Returns movie said: that one of the reasons why Dean Cain was successful as Supes was because, he had a lot of charm. But, that was really all he commented about the series. I do not know about anyone else. But I think Lois and Clark is much more successful than it just being a "charming" show?

What do you guys think?
Granted. I did tune in to see Superman (he is hot in the suit) but, the show has spunk and still holds up now!!! I just finally got to actually see all four seasons completely!!! When they were on first aired the kept pre-empting them (ABC) and showing re-runs that I did not get to see them all in order.

You aren't alone in your observations elflinn. LNC seems to be somewhat of the red-headed step-child of the Superman franchise.

Why, exactly, is difficult to explain.

There are a lot of theories out there - some say it's due to the marriage - some say it's due to the show's lack of "extreme" popularity (because let's face it - the show was popular, we're all proof of that, just not as popular as the "execs" would have liked).

I've never personally understood why "Smallville" receives more praise than LNC. It doesn't even prominently feature "Superman" - Tom Welling has yet to wear the suit. <g> And it has only been on, what, 2 more years than LNC? LNC had 4 - isn't Smallville up to 6? It's not like LNC only lasted for a season and then went on into obscurity...

But anyway, I'll step back down off of my soapbox now, and let someone else have a turn. <g>

-- DJ

Oh, and "welcome" - btw - I see this is your 2nd post and you registered in Dec. So I just wanted to say a little welcome to the boards.

I’m very curious about this too.

Take Superman returns, I film I’ve seen heavily criticised by Superman fans.
The average critic seems not have liked it because it wasn’t true too the comics and because Superman’s moral compass was out of whack, peeping, home wrecking etc. I mostly didn’t like SR because it wasn’t L&C, but I seem virtually alone in that. These people don’t like Smallville either because Clark isn’t the upstanding guy he I supposed too be, but at least that series is mentioned in the context. L&C doesn’t exist. Teri Hatcher was a good Lois Lane, that about as much recognition I’ve seen the series receive.
I believe Singer said something about making SR a romance movie to reel in the ladies so it wouldn’t be all explosions and heroics. Presumable this dark brooding Superman and the unrequited love in the story is that.
Now I’m a guy, so I don’t know if it works but I just find the love story tedious in SR. and in contrast, I do I find the romance in L&C really touching, evidently there are some ladies that think so too. So why couldn’t they use they use the L&C concept? It’s Byrne comics after all, it’s not like it was invented for the show.

Many Superman fans doesn’t seem to have liked Caine’s portrayal of Superman. He lacks the kind of grace and majesty that Reeves had. Instead Cain projects a kind of gentle giant persona with charm and a great deal of warmth he seem to radiate an unpretentious goodness. People seem to expect Superman to do a lot of flexing, showing that he is the top dog, but really why? If he possessed such immense powers what would be the point? Instead Clark in L&C wants to be appreciated for who he is not what he can do. Which is what makes the concept work for me.

I don’t find any other Superman incarnation particularly interesting. even the iconic Reeves is boring. L&C has a depth and believability that I just haven’t encountered in the superman mythos. I find it strange that not more people think like me. Ah well.

That DVD was just wacky. The Smallville segment just seemed to go on and on. Well, at least it seemed to take me a great deal of time to FF through it...

I could be wrong, but I think L&C got slightly more time & attention on the DVD than Superman III or IV did. (I should HOPE so!) But my point is, those were important movies, and they were just sort of glossed over, too... as was the Superboy series. (And was Superfriends mentioned at all?? I know the 1996 animated series was, as was Justice League, but I don't recall the DVD mentioning Superfriends... I could be wrong.)

The DVD seemed to be more of a promotion for Superman Returns than anything else... for the non-fan rather than the avid Superman fan (who would probably already know most of the information presented) to make them see that Superman is cool. What better way to pound that into them than to say "Superman is on TV *right now*! See? He's hip, he's current!! And here's a show on the WB to prove it! Woohoo."

At least, that's one of my theories. My other theory is that the people who made that DVD need to have their heads examined.

i totally agree with awran. The superman returns movie, seems very dark. All supermans values seem to have disapeared. Spying on lois in her house, having a child out of wedlock etc. Dean cains version of superman was much more endearing. He was portraying an alien with extrodinary abilities, just trying to be an average guy and live a normal (as much as possible) life with the love of his life lois. I definately think that smallville had way too much air time in this dvd.

Okay, I love Lois and Clark. It is my favorite of all the Superman incarnations. But...

I do have to say something about Caincrazy's remark about Superman Returns being dark and morally unsteady...

I will agree with you that I didn't like the whole premise of Superman having a kid out of wedlock. However, to be honest, Superman II did set up that story line quite legitimately (wince). Actually if I were to get irritated with one of the Superman movies it would have been the 2nd one when Superman "slept" with Lois on a whim and out of wedlock. That is what led to the child out of wedlock.

But anyway, I digress, that's not actually what I was going to comment on. <g> What I was really going to comment on was the "Spying on lois in her house" part. Let's not forget that our gorgeous, sweet, "endearing" Dean Cain/Clark Kent, did the exact same thing in the LNC series. In fact, he did it right off the bat in the Pilot episode...first hanging around her apartment building watching her get back from her date with Luthor and then floating up to hover outside her window and listen in on her conversation with Lucy.

And all before Clark Kent and Lois Lane could even be called "good friends". At least the Clark Kent in SR had had a long-time relationship with Lois Lane before he went to her house and spied on her. <g>

Anyway, I just love to play devil's advocate from time to time and had to remind everyone of our very own "stalker Clark".

-- DJ

Well you got me there DJ I didn't think about that. Then again I got the feeling that he wanted to make sure she had gotten home safe from her date with Luthor, not really that he wanted to check out her private conversation. Maybe it's because it's written darker but in SR he seemed just like the creepy ex-boyfriend. Especially since he does his level best to wreck her relationship with Richard.
Or maybe I'm just biased.

To me it's not so much that he got a kid out of wedlock either, we have plenty of fic were that happened, (think Sue's FB).
But I would expect fatherhood to mean the world to him. In SR it doesn't seem to be a big deal, all he says is that "he is always around" For what? Nothing about shared caretaking, coming clean with Lois etc.

Anyway, the pre crisis superman concept, where Clark is the disguise feels so two-dimensional. I never really got why Superman is so nice to people, he just is. I would think that is blatantly obvious when you put the post and pre crisis concept side by side.

But evidently not. I would have thought those who liked the comic books would have liked LCTNAOS, but they hardly mention it. OTOH, they don't slag it either, like smallville.

DJ, I loathe this scene with an absolute passion, and I totally agree that it was creepy and stalker-like and completely out of character for L&C's Clark. I've excused it only because it was the pilot, and often the characters aren't really well-established in the pilot.

But then in one of the "Stardust" FDK threads, C_A reminded me that he also spies on her when she accepts Luthor's proposal, and I realized that I don't much like that scene either, even though it's just slightly more understandable that he wouldn't be able to resist the temptation under those circumstances. But stalker!Clark just doesn't ring true to me in terms of his overall character, and I wish they'd never included either of those scenes.

Caroline

He watches her apartment in WWW, too.

Hee hee - see I knew there were other "spying" scenes... I was just too lazy to go look them up. <g>

I'm sure I'm probably the minority on this one - but - stalkerClark doesn't bother me... and further more, he doesn't feel out of character for me either. Well, okay, a little out of character in the pilot - since he didn't know Lois that well yet.

But the rest of the times we've seen him do it - no. Clark was deeply and completely in love with Lois... and he was constantly looking out for her - whether that was physically or otherwise. So I could totally see him being possessive like this. I actually don't think of it as a "stalker" at all. Just a loving friend checking up on her... that's all.

I've actually used the "stalker" side of him (either actually watching her or just "thinking" about watching her) in several of my stories. Which we saw Clark *tempted* to watch her also, in the series (HIM for example).

I'm sure I'll catch a lot of flack for those comments, but, oh well. <g>

DJ, that's exactly the way I saw those particular scenes. I thought they had a sort of "what light through yonder window breaks?"-type quality to them. Y'know?

No flak from me, DJ...but I don't agree with you, either . I didn't mean to put words in your mouth, though, and apologize if I did. It sounds like we're coming at stalker!Clark from different directions.

I don't think being in love with someone excuses spying or eavesdropping. How is Clark using his abilities to listen in on Lois's conversations any different from Luthor recording her conversations in BatP/HoL? Luthor claimed to love her deeply and passionately, too, and he probably believed he was looking out for her best interests, but I don't think that makes his eavesdropping right or excusable.

Yes, if Clark had reason to believe that Lois was in immediate physical danger, I would think he'd be excused for spying, but that doesn't seem to be at all the case in the pilot - he was just being nosy there - nor does it seem to be the case in BatP. Which leaves me not liking it much.

At the same time, it's these little things that keep Clark from being too good to be true, and that's not all a bad thing.

Caroline

I think it's perfectly logical and reasonable that Smallville got a lot more screentime than LnC. It's still on the air - which means it has more (active) fans, and if you devote time to it, then you'll get more of those Smallville fans buying your DVD. The current incarnation will almost always get the bulk of screentime.

LnC is often dismissed with the greater Superman family. It's not the same as other Superman fandoms. A lot of comic fans hate LnC (a lot hate Smallville, too, but it's got lots of non-comic fans - though I'd expect most will forget about it once it's off the air). LnC is a very non-traditional Superman and a lot of people don't find LnC's Superman tough enough or have a problem with his physical appearance. And, and I hope I don't get too much flack for this, LnC's Superman isn't that great. I love LnC's Lois and LnC's Clark - my favorite Lois and my favorite Clark, ever. But Dean as Superman has no "oomph" to me, inspires no awe, has no majesty, doesn't evoke that feeling I get inside me that some other Supermans do. LnC is about Lois and Clark more than Superman (hence the title) and is my favorite of all the Superman series, but when you're doing something about Superman through the ages, it's more about Superman, particularly Superman-the-icon, than it is about Clark-the-man.

<DJ puts on her best innocent face>

Because he's Clark.

I'm kidding!!! I do see your point Caroline - even if I choose (stubbornly) to continue to look at Clark's actions differently.

So true Caroline and I think that statement brings us full circle back to the point that Arawn was trying to make. From the things I've seen Arawn post, he feels like the reason he's attracted to LNC rather than other incarnations of Superman is because in LNC, Clark is "real". He is a real guy, with real feelings, emotions, and... issues.

A lot of times we excuse them, because, well... he is *super* after all. But they are the things that make him feel so real.

It's the same way with Lois - I excuse her for some of the idiotic things she did - because they made her seem like a real person. Real people make mistakes and do stupid stuff. Oh, and just to open another can... Lois wasn't above spying on people either. Remember the Mayson/Clark kiss that she spied on? Oh, and then there was the time she followed him to the jewelry store to spy on him robbing it.

I'm sure there are others - any takers?

-- DJ

THANKS FOR WELCOME METRORHODES!!

I agree with DSDragon about the stalker scenes in LNC. They are not my favorite ones but, to me they
were not as eerie as the ones in SR. Also, somewhere in that bts Richard Donner comments about S2. Something to effect that he would not have Lois and Clark sleep together without them married. I could
be wrong. Which I agree should have taken place. Why
Clark/Superman have to be so nice? Atleast in LNC there are one or two times that he stood up to Lois.
In SR he did not.He just stood like a doormat. The movie itself was to dark to me. I thought the director and writers should have lighten up some.Yes, I am very partial to LNC but, I have always loved Superman. I guess because the interviews etc. I have seen or whatever Teri Hatcher and Dean Cain seem to actually be sincere when you hear them reflect on the series. Very gracious to me. But, enough of that. I really wanted to comment on the stalker moments. To me, Clark/Superman did not have a lot meaningful dialog in SR as did in LNC. That is what I love about LNC series. It was not just oh, there is a world threatening dilema and Superman has to fly off to save the day It let you in on the person not the just the action.

Caroline,

Really? Clark knows that Luthor is a murderous megalomanic sociopath and have every reason to believe that the marriage is something that Lois would bitterly regret. Should he really respect their privacy to that degree if he loves her? Sure he has a personal stake, but to me he seemed to look for a way out as much for Lois as himself. Remember that he knows that Lois his for the taking, if he is willing to pay the price. He didn’t hang outside the window when she was seeing Scardino did he?

And in WWW he had tried to get in touch with Lois all night, saw Scardino, didn’t want to show himself and left. I’ never saw that as stalkerish in the least. Rather the opposite in fact.

The pilot scene is difficult to defend though, even if he wanted to see that she had gotten home safely, it doesn't seem like he needed to hang outside her window. Well, it didn’t look like he was peering through the wall at least. :p

Elflinn - you're welcome.

Arawn -

Ha ha ha! Too funny - especially since I was "considering" having him do that very thing in a fic I'm writing right now (involving Dan Scardino, no less).

I just love discussion threads like this one. It really gets the creative juices flowing. <g>

That's almost exactly what I was trying to say.

Well, he hadn't known her that long, and didn't realize he was in love with her yet. I think, in the beginning, Clark felt drawn to Lois--though he didn't know why. That's what I think the scene outside the window in the Pilot was about.

It's like the song Freddy sings in My Fair Lady, "The Street Where You Live:"

When she mentioned how her aunt bit off the spoon,
She completely done me in.
And my heart went on a journey to the moon,
When she told about her father and the gin.
And I never saw a more enchanting farce
Than that moment when she shouted
"move your bloomin' "....

Eliza had committed a faux pas at the races, and Freddy was drawn to that--drawn to her lack of polite veneer. In the same vein, Clark had just spent a day being razzed and put down by Lois.

I have often walked down this street before;
But the pavement always stayed beneath my feet before.
All at once am I Several stories high.
Knowing I'm on the street where you live.
Are there lilac trees in the heart of town?
Can you hear a lark in any other part of town?
Does enchantment pour Out of ev'ry door?
No, it's just on the street where you live!
And oh! The towering feeling
Just to know somehow you are near.
The overpowering feeling
That any second you may suddenly appear!
People stop and stare. They don't bother me.
For there's no where else on earth that I would rather be.
Let the time go by, I won't care if I
Can be here on the street where you live.

Sure, Freddy knows he's in love with Eliza at the time, but I think it's the same type of thing--Clark was drawn to Lois, and felt he had to see where she lived, what she did when she wasn't being her reporter self, etc.

And has been said before, at least Clark wasn't looking through the wall--although he could have. But I got the impression that until Lois walked to the window, he was looking inside it.

Me too, Darcy. <g>

Arawn, I'm not convinced we're on the same page.

DJ said:

And my response to that was that if being "deeply and passionately in love" was a valid excuse for eavesdropping, then we would have to excuse Luthor as well*. He tapes Lois's conversation with Clark - and probably other conversations too - and we the viewers see it as a terrible invasion of her privacy. But when Clark does it, we give him a pass because he's a nice guy who looks darn good in those tights. It's still an invasion of her privacy, though.

(*Though actually, I never got the feeling in first season that Luthor "loved" Lois so much as wanted to possess her, but the writers later showed - most tiresomely - that he was quite obsessively in love with her - or at least as 'in love' as he knew how to be. Whatever.)

You said: Short answer: yes, in my opinion.

Long answer: Certainly, Clark knew that Luthor was dangerous. But was that really why he watched their engagement? If so, if he was really concerned for her safety, why didn't he just swoop in there and get her out? Why didn't he offer her Superman, as you pointed out? Instead, he flies off and yells at glaciers, which made a touching scene for the viewers but didn't do one blessed thing to keep Lois safe from the murderous megalomaniac sociopath.

Nor was it necessary for him to actually watch the engagement to find out it had come to pass. Even if he and Lois were no longer on speaking terms, he'd have heard about the engagement through the grapevine or through the media, which would have been all over it the minute it was announced. There was no reason - other than the writers doing it for their own convenience and for the drama of the thing - for Clark to be hanging about outside that window. Lots and lots of other ways it could have been handled that would have been less squicky and more in character, in my opinion.

I do agree with you about the scene in WWW, though. I'd forgotten it until Lisa mentioned it, but I don't see that one as being a deliberate invasion of Lois's privacy.

Caroline