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Hack from Nowheresville
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Hack from Nowheresville
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 124 |
I think the earth just opened up under our feet: Amazon is preparing a marketplace for fanfic writers to publish their work -- and get paid. It's called Kindle Worlds , and so far Amazon says it has secured licensing deals with Warner Bros. (!) for Gossip Girls, Pretty Little Liars and The Vampire Diaries. With Lois & Clark a Warner Bros. property, can it be far behind? There's a FAQ page for writers . If we weren't already living in interesting times, I'm sure we're about to be. Lauren W.
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Pulitzer
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Pulitzer
Joined: Feb 2010
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To say I have mixed feelings regarding this development is a huge understatement. I wonder how this will impact fandom. If authors were to double-post here and on the Amazon site, few people would buy their works from Amazon. (Why should they, when they could get them for free here?) I hope we won't see a migration of fanfic authors from here to Amazon. Also, I wonder whether companies which have hitherto turned a blind eye to sites such as this one will start to go after fanfic writers who have posted their stories here and elsewhere (e.g., fanfic.net). While I would gladly pay to read fanfic written by several of the authors here, I fear that if the authors do decide to sell their works, we may be seeing the end of our "Lois & Clark Fanfic" folder here.  Thanks for letting us know of this development, Lauren. Joy, Lynn
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Kerth
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Kerth
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Amazon have a history of demanding exclusive distribution deals, I'd imagine that'd preclude posting stuff elsewhere. One of several reasons why I don't sell my games through them.
Marcus L. Rowland
Forgotten Futures, The Scientific Romance Role Playing Game
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Pulitzer
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Pulitzer
Joined: Feb 2010
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Right you are, Marchus. I just saw on the Amazon site, "Amazon Publishing will acquire all rights to your new stories, including global publication rights, for the term of copyright."
That might help a bit; authors will now have to choose whether they wish to try to make money or whether they would rather have more people read their works. I'm guessing that many of the FoLCs here will probably choose eyeballs over dollars/Euros/insert-currency-of-choice-here.
I just hope that WB, etc. won't decide to crack down on not-for-profit fanfic postings, though, now that they have an avenue by which they can increase their bottom line via fanfic.
- Lynn
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Boards Chief Administrator Emeritus Nobel Peace Prize Winner
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Boards Chief Administrator Emeritus Nobel Peace Prize Winner
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 9,362 |
From a purely selfish perspective, it seems Amazon are very much persuing the current "in" shows with this. So it's not the case that any fan of any show can publish fanfic on Kindle Worlds.
I imagine that this means LNC is unlikely to be added to their stable. They're not likely to think of chasing down the licence holders. So it's probably not going to greatly affect FoLCdom in the near future.
On the wider scale, it's certainly...interesting. I can't imagine that it will do fandom much good in general. I'm sure there'll be a clause somewhere in that contract that fanfic can't be or previously have been posted elsewhere.
Safe to say, this one will be closely watched.
LabRat :-)
Athos: If you'd told us what you were doing, we might have been able to plan this properly.
Aramis: Yes, sorry.
Athos: No, no, by all means, let's keep things suicidal.
The Musketeers
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Nobel Peace Prize Winner
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Nobel Peace Prize Winner
Joined: Apr 2011
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Being that Superman is only partially owned by Warner's Bros I'm guessing it will never be available on Amazon, because I cannot see DC Comics or the heirs to Siegel and Shuster allowing this.
VirginiaR.
"On the long road, take small steps." -- Jor-el, "The Foundling"
---
"clearly there is a lack of understanding between those two... he speaks Lunkheadanian and she Stubbornanian" -- chelo.
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Beat Reporter
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Beat Reporter
Joined: Apr 2003
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(Wow,I haven't been here in a long time...)
At first I was really intrigued by this idea, but having read all the terms, I find myself feeling pretty meh. For my own personal experience, I don't care about any of these fandoms, and I don't anticipate that any of the fandoms I do care about will ever be included.
But from a larger perspective, I have to wonder whether there is really much of a market for this anyway. I don't read a lot of fanfic these days, but back when I was mainlining fanfic, I went through hundreds of stories a year. I was a college student; I could not have paid a few dollars apiece for them even if I had wanted to. And while L&C has a lot of stories I would say are worth paying for, the vast majority of fandoms I have dabbled in just don't have that level of quality. Is there a huge potential market of fans who are willing to pay for something we are used to getting for free?
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Kerth
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Kerth
Joined: Dec 2008
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Interesting.
I don't think anyone can accurately predict where this will go or what effect it will have on any given fandom.
However, in my experience, money has great capacity to taint things. There will be contracts, deadlines, copyright issues, people complaining because they didn't get what they thought they paid for, disputes over similar ideas, and arguments between writers and BRs over percentages. Much of the fun will be leached out of it.
I love the purity (not the right word, but as close as I can get) of fanfic. I love that writers freely give of their talents, time, and stories. I love that BRs commit to a story that isn't theirs and offer their thoughts to help it be as good as it can be. I love that many others contribute through editing, maintaining the archive, and organising the Kerths. I love that readers show their appreciation through feedback, emails, and voting in Kerths. Everything is done simply because we love Lois and Clark and want to share our enjoyment of those characters with like-minded people.
IMO, getting paid would be a financial gain, but overall, we would lose something worth far more than mere money.
Corrina.
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Pulitzer
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Pulitzer
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Well said, Female Hawk. I agree completely.
- Lynn
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Nobel Peace Prize Winner
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Nobel Peace Prize Winner
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 6,142 Likes: 2 |
Originally posted by Female Hawk:
Interesting.
I don't think anyone can accurately predict where this will go or what effect it will have on any given fandom.
However, in my experience, money has great capacity to taint things. There will be contracts, deadlines, copyright issues, people complaining because they didn't get what they thought they paid for, disputes over similar ideas, and arguments between writers and BRs over percentages. Much of the fun will be leached out of it.
I love the purity (not the right word, but as close as I can get) of fanfic. I love that writers freely give of their talents, time, and stories. I love that BRs commit to a story that isn't theirs and offer their thoughts to help it be as good as it can be. I love that many others contribute through editing, maintaining the archive, and organising the Kerths. I love that readers show their appreciation through feedback, emails, and voting in Kerths. Everything is done simply because we love Lois and Clark and want to share our enjoyment of those characters with like-minded people.
IMO, getting paid would be a financial gain, but overall, we would lose something worth far more than mere money.
Corrina.  Well put.
Battle On,
Deadly Chakram
"Being with you is stronger than me alone." ~ Clark Kent
"One little spark of inspiration is at the heart of all creation." ~ Figment the Dragon
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Pulitzer
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Pulitzer
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 3,658 Likes: 10 |
Corrina:
You put into words what the rest of us were feeling. This is a wonderful fandom. Perhaps not as popular as some, but the writing, gentle encouragement and just pure (yes, I used that word) fun of this fandom is much to be appreciated.
Would I pay money to read some of the best fiction out there? Yes. Would the world of FoLC's be as wonderful. No.
There are more important things in life than money.
Morgana
A writer's job is to think of new plots and create characters who stay with you long after the final page has been read. If that mission is accomplished than we have done what we set out to do, which is to entertain and hopefully educate.
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Top Banana
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Top Banana
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I'm not as uncertain this won't affect our fandom at least a little. The first sentence on the page about Kindle Worlds mentions comics. If they get Warner Brothers to approve comic book fanfiction as a fandom, I can see many of the comics (with some alterations) working in other universes. Specifically the Man of Steel era of comics.
CLARK: No. I'm just worried I'm a jinx.
JONATHAN: A jinx?
CLARK: Yeah. Let's face it, ever since she's known me, Lois's been kidnapped, frozen, pushed off buildings, almost stabbed, poisoned, buried alive and who knows what else, and it's all because of me.
-"Contact" (You're not her jinx, you're her blessing.)
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Joined: Apr 2003
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Boards Chief Administrator Emeritus Nobel Peace Prize Winner
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Boards Chief Administrator Emeritus Nobel Peace Prize Winner
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 9,362 |
Good article on this in The Guardian today: Fanfic has no limits Pretty much says it all. I still don't think that a TV show which has been off air for over a decade and which has a small, niche fandom is the first place Amazon is going to rush to get a licence on. But, I guess the Superman angle might hit us tangentially. LabRat :-)
Athos: If you'd told us what you were doing, we might have been able to plan this properly.
Aramis: Yes, sorry.
Athos: No, no, by all means, let's keep things suicidal.
The Musketeers
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Top Banana
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Top Banana
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It's not likely to affect one section of this board too much. It says very specifically no explicit adult content. It also doesn't affect WHAMs as much from the looks of the faqs. I did scratch my head for a moment with regards to the Guardian article. I'd never, EVER heard of "wing" fic and I've been reading fan fiction for 13 years!
CLARK: No. I'm just worried I'm a jinx.
JONATHAN: A jinx?
CLARK: Yeah. Let's face it, ever since she's known me, Lois's been kidnapped, frozen, pushed off buildings, almost stabbed, poisoned, buried alive and who knows what else, and it's all because of me.
-"Contact" (You're not her jinx, you're her blessing.)
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Joined: Apr 2003
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Boards Chief Administrator Emeritus Nobel Peace Prize Winner
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Boards Chief Administrator Emeritus Nobel Peace Prize Winner
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 9,362 |
LOL. Tell me about it, Christina. Some of what's out there is strange to behold. I recall being quite startled by some of the downright squickie Doctor Who fic out there.  LabRat :-)
Athos: If you'd told us what you were doing, we might have been able to plan this properly.
Aramis: Yes, sorry.
Athos: No, no, by all means, let's keep things suicidal.
The Musketeers
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Pulitzer
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Pulitzer
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I have to agree with those who do not see this as likely to directly include "Lois and Clark" anytime soon, even if it might be fun. I would expect them to include "Smallville" much sooner, although even that is probably unlikely.
John Pack Lambert
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Kerth
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Kerth
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Originally posted by John Lambert:
I have to agree with those who do not see this as likely to directly include "Lois and Clark" anytime soon, even if it might be fun. I would expect them to include "Smallville" much sooner, although even that is probably unlikely. Wouldn't be so sure about that. Smallville is in top 20 of categories with most written stories on ff.net, not to mention the huge fan following its got separately... This is an interesting topic. On the one hand, I'm a broke college student who sure as heck wouldn't mind picking up a few extra bucks for something that I already spend a lot of my time doing. On the other hand... I'm a broke college student. I don't have time and I'm not gonna be able to pay for any stories, so how would anyone else be? Besides, there are many, many different reasons why this plan is no good. Firstly, how would you know you're getting a good story? If you look at ff.net, you get thousands of stories thrown at you, mostly by new writers (which is not the bad part) and they have two sentence summaries that give you no concept of what their writing style will be like (that's the bad part). I've taken a gamble on many a story where the spelling and grammar is just so bad that I can't stick through it-- and I'll usually try to brave them out for a while, out of courtesy. But sometimes, it's just too bad. Would there be some sort of publishing/editing to prevent that? Which in turn would limit the field of writing, and make writing fanfic into something more along the lines of writing an original piece of work, with more competition and less results. This might discourage some people from writing or participating at all in the fandoms, when all it takes a lot of the time is a little guidance and practice. And who knows what impact this would have on the community! Too many implications, too much copyright involved... welcome to the last capitalist takeover of society. Even our likes and dislikes get to be sold for profit. But then again, I'm a terrible pessimist. I'll have to read that article later. I'm curious as to how far this is really gonna go...  <---- me
Nothing spoils a good story like the arrival of an eye witness.
--Mark Twain
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Pulitzer
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Pulitzer
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This article was in the Sunday LA Times "Arts & Books" section, repeated from Wednesday. It made things a little clearer. By Carolyn Kellogg
May 22, 2013, 10:04 a.m.
Amazon has a plan to monetize fan fiction: It's called Kindle Worlds. On Wednesday, Amazon announced a new scheme in which writers of fan fiction can self-publish and sell that writing with the sanction of the original copyright holder.
The idea is that everyone, including Amazon, will profit. The fan fiction authors will get 35% of net revenue for full-length books; Amazon and the original copyright owner will split the other 65%, in terms that the company will not disclose.
Until now, fan fiction has largely been available for free; in the cases where it was not, sales definitely fell into a gray area. Could a fan of Harry Potter write and sell his own adventures of the boy wizard? He shouldn't -- but many did. If not entirely legal, the market for fan fiction was generally thought to be too insignificant to tamp down.
Then came "Fifty Shades of Grey." The erotic novel was the biggest-selling book of 2012 -- and it originated as a work of fan fiction.
Author E.L. James had posted a work of "Twilight" fan fiction online years before. She used -- and sexed up -- the characters in Stephenie Meyer's "Twilight" series in an online serial that eventually became "Fifty Shades." "This did start as 'Twilight' fan fiction" her agent told Deadline, adding, however, "If you read the books, they are nothing like 'Twilight' now."
In James' final version, the characters and setting had departed significantly from Meyers' original work. The question of just how much of "Fifty Shades of Grey" had derived from that original work of fan fiction was raised when the book became a hit.
If Meyer and James had both been part of Kindle Worlds, Meyer would have profited from James' success. As would Amazon, acting as both publisher and retailer of the fan fiction.
However, Meyer hasn't signed on -- nor has J.K. Rowling, who has encouraged Potter fans to explore their own fiction in her Harry Potter-dedicated website, Pottermore. In fact, no single author with a traditional publishing house has joined Amazon for the launch of Kindle Worlds.
Instead, Kindle Worlds is launching with three major properties that are owned by Alloy Entertainment: Gossip Girl, Pretty Little Liars, and Vampire Diaries. Alloy is known for creating and packaging fictions that have the potential for broad popular appeal -- each of the above is also a television show -- and for paying authors on a work-for-hire basis. Whereas in a traditional publishing arrangement, Meyer owns the copyright to Bella and Edward, Alloy owns the rights to "The Vampire Diaries' " Elena, Stefan and Damon.
On her website, "The Vampire Diaries" author L.J. (Lisa Jane) Smith explains her working relationship with the company. "Alloy Entertainment Inc., which owns half the copyright and originally asked Lisa to write 'The Vampire Diaries' in 1990 as 'work for hire' has had the book ['The Vampire Diaries: The Hunters: Phantom'] completely rewritten by an anonymous ghostwriter. The credit on the book will say 'Created by L.J. Smith' Lisa will not be allowed to write further Vampire Diaries, although she has asked both Alloy Entertainment Inc. and HarperTeen to do so. The series is now in the hands of an anonymous ghostwriter."
And in the hands of fans, Alloy and Amazon.
Amazon has said that it will announce further partners in the Amazon Worlds fan fiction project in the future. So it seems they take your baby from you and put it in an orphanage managed by an anonymous person and you can never see it again except in the dark of your own mind. Doesn't sound like a great deal to me.  Artemis
History is easy once you've lived it. - Duncan MacLeod
Writing history is easy once you've lived it. - Artemis
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Pulitzer
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Pulitzer
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Well, the ghost writer part was with the published stories, not the fanfic.
However, it might be telling that this is the type of think that people who started out with non-traditional relationships between creators, ownership and publishing embrace.
We will see where it goes.
John Pack Lambert
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Pulitzer
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Pulitzer
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Well said, Corrina. I wonder if these stories are going to have editors and all that? If they are, wouldn't they be the same as all those Star Trek books (in print)? I mean, basically, those are fan fiction because they certainly have lots of different themes. If they aren't going to be along the lines of a regular book, I can't imagine why Amazon would sell fan fiction. I mean really... We have a great community with great stories, but some of the stuff out there is just crap.
~~Even heroes have the right to dream.~~
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