Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Related Online [In Fanfic], R U Really Reading?

Another Interesting Article From the Times

Yeah...I don't think reading online is the same as picking up a book. And this...

...reminds me that the Pit is not exactly a treasure trove of writing to be emulated. (Here I'm moving a bit away from the debate on reading to writing) It's not all bad though, fanfic offers the potential be a good exercise in creativity if anything, and yes, to tweak writing skills. The problem is that the last is only in very limited cases, I don't think the young ones getting online are thinking about this as they write their um...Joker/Mary Sue fic on FF.

Any thoughts? Will teh intarweb (fanfic) eventually kill the writer?

alcyone

Any exercise that encourages creativity and storytelling is a benefit, in my opinion. Just because you pay for a book doesn't make it any better than the stuff you can get for free. It just means the writer was lucky enough to find an agent that was lucky enough to convince a publisher that the idea on paper is mass-marketable. There is utter crap on many of the shelves of your local Borders. Trust me.

I encourage discretion when reading in places like ffnet, because one can certainly get duds, but the fact that ffnet encouraged this girl to write at all is a blessing. Am I going to read it? No. It looks awful to me. But the point is... she was writing, thinking, imagining, and I would never take that experience away from anyone. Beats the heck out of television any day of the week.

I feel I ought to explain myself better here. I haven't read YA in years (obligatory disclaimer), and, I agree that content-wise one would be just as likely to get "elliptical plots" reminiscent of fanfic. Not to mention that perhaps many wouldn't help so much with critical thinking. That's not what I was referring to, when I valued books over fanfic.

I had a content/mechanics division in mind. I would hope that the vocab and grammar usage would generally be better in a book than most of what is self-published by young writers (tweens and early teens) on the Internet in frequented spaces like FF. I would assume that the writers of a published book have a) more experience and b) editors to help polish. This matters to me because I don't underestimate how much someone can get basic writing skills from reading even the most inane books, provided they read a lot.

Don't get me wrong, I applaud fanfic as a writing excercise. Better than tv, to be sure. But there is no comparison with a published book in my view, especially not with the breadth and depth of crap on the 'net.

alcyone

Hmmm...interesting arguments on both side of this issue. I can personally attest to the fact that many teens have abysmal writing skills and illegible handwriting. It would be wonderful if they would voluntarily pick up decent literature and use it to improve their own skills. But except for the rare few, most students just don't seem to do that. In low income areas like around where I work, some kids really don't have access to books. They (and their parents) don't spend money on buying books and libraries are increasingly unavailable. (For example, the local library in our area closed because of mold with no real timetable for when it will reopen.) At least the internet is often accessable to them.

Of course, much of the writing on the internet is not up to the standards of great literature. But at least it's a place to start for kids who otherwise wouldn't read anything. And I've also had some success with encouraging students to write fanfiction as a way of working on their own writing skills. Kids don't need to invent new characters and they already have ideas for stories in their heads, prompted by whatever fandom they're interested in. They don't have to start from ground zero. Sometimes the kids proudly let me read their stories and I have to stop myself from rolling my eyes at how bad the writing often is. But I always find something to praise about it, then point out areas (usually grammar and spelling) that could be improved on.

So anyway, it's far from perfect, but at least it's a start.

I just thank God my mom and I didn't care about the 'net really till almost college. I definitely agree that the 'net is a start for those who are unenthusiastic about reading, but as someone who grew up practically inside a library, the digital kids are just missing out.

JD

I felt I just had to post in response to this debate. There is, of course, a lot of crap on the fan sites, but there are a lot of books in libraries being held up as great litature that is also crap. I won't name authors or books so as not to start an uproar. There were assigned books in high school that we were forced to read as being great books that left me wondering was it me or did the teachers have no taste at all. Other books I've tried reading because they were suppose to be great books that after about 4 pages of describing a painting on the wall I put down because I no longer remembered what the point the author was trying to make.

I've also read books that received no press but were great. Just as there are stories on the fan sites that are well written and professional.
They use inventive and mature language - as opposed to See Spot run. Many a time I've had to open my Merriam-Webster Dictionary/Thesaurus Program to look up a word because it was a new one to me.

I too watch little TV anymore preferring to read books from my library but mainly stories from the internet be in fanfiction or news. I'm currently beta reading for Darth Michael and I have beta for several others, and I have to say it is something I find quite enjoyable. To be a part of someone trying their hand at writing, developing their plots, choosing their words and at times even creating new characters. I have to tell them I envy them because though I have taken writing courses I'm terrible at it. I can admit that and take pleasure from helping others do it. So to all that trying their hand at writing

Limiting storytelling to the printed commercial medium is like saying any musician who's not played on the radio is making bad music.

There is a wide variety of bad writing everywhere you look. I can peruse the romance section of any bookstore and come back with stacks and stacks of utter garbage filled with trite, stock characters, insipid, cliched plots, and horrendous editing. Mass-marketable does not make it good writing.

Writing can only be improved by doing it. And doing it again. And doing it again, and again, and again. Fanfic helps achieve this with an easily approachable medium. The many benefits of writing, such as developing a creative mind, a wider attention span, keener vocabulary, the ability to consume constructive critcism, confidence, or even just catharsis all outweigh, to me, the necessity of knowing where exactly to put a comma.

(lol. Anyone that knows me, knows I have no beef with misplaced commas, it's far worse things than that which make me cringe)

My comments are referring to fanfiction, specifically as a *learning tool* for preteens and young adults. Hence, my mention of Young Adult fiction. This is a crucial distinction for me, which is why confidence and catharsis are not particularly important unless these reasons yield more avid readers. I'm on the fence on that.

I do think however, that your view is too optimistic. I suspect (I could be wrong! I wish I am!) that this population is not (a)developing a better attention span from reading online (I believe the article mentions that and I've read unrelated studies on that as well, I could go on how reading online differs from reading, but that would send me on another tangent) or (b) the ability to consume constructive criticism--I'm not sure how many 12-year-olds, for example, frequent spaces where they are likely to get *constructive* criticism and not just a one word comment (great for confidence, not so educational).

That lies at the heart of my argument. If I knew FF (it's the most pervasive example) offered a community for young writers to seriously critique each other, I would revise my opinion.

Fanfic is an exceptional learning tool when there's an exchange. For instance, my class last semester had an option to do a creative project and a few kids chose to rewrite endings for the texts we studied. They peer reviewed and at the end I graded. It was excellent in both developing critical thinking and polishing mechanics (as well as really fun to read!). This is similar to groobie's example above. Having someone do something other than squee is what takes it from fun to educational (while keeping the fun).

I am hesitant to believe that sort of exchange or beta-work is common online (across all ages, I posted a while back on constructive criticism). Although it would be heartening if it were, I can't say that enough. I'd love to be wrong and I'd love those kids to be in my classes. *crosses fingers*

I'm not limiting storytelling or saying that kids shouldn't write fanfic or that it's useless. What I am saying that a published book is more likely to be a better learning tool.

One simply needs to scale a slightly higher wall to publish than to post. Perhaps some published authors could weigh in.

So yes, I believe that books are still, on the whole, more educational than fanfic, unless writing fanfic involves some exchange other than "good story." YMMV.

I didn't say it did. Nor did I mention *good* writing in any of my posts, but rather the basics, which are still missing for many of the kids today. The quality of something seen by editors is probably better than that being self-published by a young writer online.

Are there 12-year-olds that can write better books by themselves than those mass marketed? Sure!

My question is, how common are they?

If fanfic is getting kids to read when books won't then I'll take it, naturally (and the issue of resources and class is alarming). But I agree with JD, digital kids are missing out.

alcyone

I read the article and I've been following this discussion with interest, but this comment, Alcyone, really made me prick up my ears:

You are so right! One thing I've noticed, especially in my new fandom (and I think I noticed it previously on ff.net), is that many young authors post extremely short chapters or segments, sometimes as few as a couple of hundred words. If people ask for longer chapters, they may go up to around 600 words. In contrast, I tend to post chapters of between 3000-5000 words, which is the norm on these boards.

I've also seen people - and I suspect it's mainly teenagers - comment that they don't like long chapters because it's too much reading: there's the shorter attention span again.

We don't see so much of it on these boards because there's a culture here that longer chapters are preferred and we tend to let newer writers know that if they want feedback they should make longer posts. But in other fandoms that's not so much the norm.

So, while I agree that reading anything is better than reading nothing, I'm certainly not convinced that it's a good alternative to reading good-quality published works and doesn't help promote longer attention spans.


Wendy

Very true. FF.net is not like the L&C community here. It would be wonderful if kids could see the process of writing that adults engage in - the use of beta readers, editors, reasoned debate. No one gets a story perfect on the first draft, and it takes an educated eye to effectively spot areas that can use improvement. Most kids I work with don't want to bother with revisions - it's almost as if "turned in" equals "good enough."

I have to say that as a teacher I don't know a single kid that reads fanfic at all. They are on facebook and itunes and assorted other sites but none of them are reading Gossip Girl fics.

I get that there are many teens writing poorly on Fanfiction.net but I think it is a smaller number than the media believes.

How old are the kids that you teach? I teach 12, 13, 14 year olds and every year I have many kids that read and write their own stories and/or post to fanfiction sites. But I mostly teach GATE students, so maybe that's the difference.

My kids are young teens. What are GATE students? Is it a Gifted and Talented Program?

Yes, the gifted education program. Of course, they do all those other things too, like itunes, myspace, etc.

I think I just place my values differently than you all. Getting a kid to participate in the act of storytelling, even a little, has more benefit to me than anything else. You all seem to be focusing on the tangible, immediate benefits.

Anyway, I think reading a good book is great, but my experience with English classes is that they make you read stuff you hate, which turns you off reading altogether. I'd much rather a kid be reading what he or she likes than reading nothing at all, which is what I think would be happening were it not for outlets such as this.

I agree that while a published book has a good chance of being better than what a 12-year-old could write, it's foolish to disregard fanfic as a useful resource. Storytelling and community are a basis for any society, and fanfic definitely promotes both.

I’d say the internet is very good, it’s not as evil to children as people might think. I will let my children surf at it as they please. And I will certainly not snoop around trying to find out what they’ve been reading. I like the internet so much, and it helped me in the process of learning another language, and also learning to read. So I hope it will do the same good for my children.

Ditto. I have a theory that kids don’t like reading because they see it as some kind of homework, I know I did. Teachers chose certain books they think are the right one for the children to read, perhaps these children find the books very boring. This helps at making kids less acceptable to reading. Reading becomes a chore to them. When I had to write a report on a book, I would read one page, then flip some, then read some more. Then I’d go to the end of the book read the last page. I had some information to write the report, and I always got good grade on them. Do you think this is the right way to make children develop reading skills? Up until I was 17 I used to read aloud pretty badly, and barely make something out of what I read.

But, I used to read fanfictions on-line a lot. I discovered it when I was 15, and it helped to improve my English. And yet, I still thought that reading was boring, especially because my teachers always asked to read books like War and Peace. I only liked fanfiction because I knew I liked the characters.

When I was 18, I went on vacation at my cousin’s house, we would play video games, watch some TV, but he didn’t have a computer, without access to the internet I got bored pretty fast. Then I saw one single book in the middle of his stuff. It was the first Harry Potter of the series. I liked the movies, and I had nothing better to do, so I thought, what the heck?

I read, and I fell completely in love with the book. As soon as I finished it I went out to buy the second one, and also Bridget Jones’ Diary, because I also liked the movie. And from then on I had realized that reading wasn’t as bad as school portrayed.

So, yes, I think educators should review their point of view on the subject.

Since I am 21, and I remember my teen years very well. I can argue with you on that. It’s not like kids don’t bother with revision, it’s just that when you write something, you write what’s on your mind. You don’t want to know if you said it right, you want to know if what you said has touched someone. I remember when I was 14, and my teacher assigned us to write a poem considering rhythms and meter. I got really frustrated because I worked hard at it, to make it say something beautiful, but it didn’t matter. All it matter was that a few people got the rhythm and meter thing down, and I didn’t.

Kids don’t have a concept that we adults have. They don’t work to earn a living, they have no idea what is a company, that you must obey rules, that you have financial problems. But what they do know is that they have feelings, some want to be popular, some want to be accepted, some don’t get along with their parents. That’s why people say they are in between. They have strong feeling and understanding of the word, just like adults have, they just don’t know *how* to live, and make a difference. They don’t want to be right and blend in, live on a society. They don’t understand the immensity of society, their world is their little world. They want to be heard and stand out, but no one listen to them. They don’t go by the rule, they go by their hearts. So revision don’t bother to them, because they don’t know that it is important.