Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Related Mary Sue?

After reading through some of the Author Introduction thingies, I have to ask a lingo question:

What is a Mary Sue?

And on a side note:

Why do they seem to be so unpopular? (or perhaps that's tied in with the definition...?)

According to Wikipedia :

Mary Sue, sometimes shortened simply to Sue, is a pejorative term used to describe a fictional character, either male or female (male characters are often dubbed "Gary Stu", "Marty Stu", or similar names), that is portrayed in overly idealized and clichéd ways, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as wish-fulfillment fantasies for their authors. While the label "Mary Sue" itself originates from a parody of this type of character, most characters labeled "Mary Sues" by readers are not intended by authors as such.

While the term is generally limited to fan-created characters, and its most common usage today occurs within the fan fiction community or in reference to fan fiction, canon and original fiction characters are also sometimes criticized as being "Mary Sues." Wesley Crusher[1] is probably the best-known example. In play-by-post role-playing games, many original characters are also criticized as being "Mary Sues" if they dominate the spotlight or can miraculously escape a near-impossible predicament, usually with an unlikely and previously unrevealed skill.

Identifying a character as a "Mary Sue" is naturally a subjective matter. Not all characters seemingly exhibiting "Mary Sue" traits would necessarily qualify by everyone's criteria. Indeed, well-known characters like Michael Moorcock's Elric, who is a fairly obvious idealized author surrogate,[2] are loved in spite of, or perhaps even because of, their relative "Sueness".

There's a lot more in the article (see above link), but you get the general idea.

Aha!

Thank you!

Just to add a bit: In fanfic, Mary Sue (or Gary Sue) often becomes romantically involved with the hero (or heroine depending on author gender), taking more "time" in the story than the show's partner but then s/he dies a heroic or tragic death and thus the hero (he/she) returns to the relationship established in the original show/movie on which the fanfic is based.

Bit, sometimes the Mary /Gary Sue is often just a very briefly appearing minor character. I bet a lot of fanfic writers have probably written a "Mary Sue" of this sort at some point, although they may not have realised that at the time. It could be an interesting thread, to have writers 'fess up' about their Mary Sue.

c.

I know I have . . . though not for L&C, thank goodness. My one and only Star Trek fic featured a Mary Sue--and her Gary Stu boyfriend.

Another type of Sue is the Canon Sue. Where the Sue has, it seems, possessed the body of a canon character and acted out the author's fantasies, instead of staying in character. It looks like a canon character, has the name of a canon character, but it does not act--or sometimes, even talk--like a canon character, and especially not like the canon character whose name it claims.

A Mary Sue can also be a self-insert: a way for the author to write herself into the story. Bonus points if her name is the same as or similar to that of the author. <g>

And she will often be perfect in every way and have everyone fall in love with her.

It's an interestingly flexible topic, though. Unless we're talking about an extreme case, often my interpretation of a Sue will be different from someone else's and our judgement of any certain character will be different.

Julie

I've never heard the term 'Canon Sue/Stu' before - but I can see that it does fit.

Julie mentioned the self-insert. I'd always thought that was a key motivation in using a the Mary/Gary. Although, as I said above , I think most writers aren't aware at the time that a specific character has become a Mary/Gary.

I remember Pam once saying that she wrote a female "jimmy" whom she reagarded as a Mary Sue. Can't remember which story but I think it was the one in which Clark is Kal.

I wrote a story a few years ago with a character, Mary Cardinal, in it. I didn't realise it at the time but much later when I reread the story I realised that one aspect of Mary Cardinal was me. Only that one aspect though. and, in my defense, I will say that she was a very minor character

c.

Back in my day, when the phenomena was first coined, that was the sum and entire reason for a Mary Sue. It was just the author - usually a teen female - getting off with the hero and exploring her fantasy of being so beautiful, smart, talented, powerful etc that she was irresistible.

Over the years, and especially since fanfic has gone online, the term seems to have exploded into a wealth of new definitions and sub-definitions that are often quite bewildering!

LabRat

I can't remember if the term was exactly Canon Sue or Canon Stu, but I do know that they had a different term for Sue/Stu-possessed canon characters than they did for regular Sues/Stus in the Buffy fandom. Or at least they did on the boards/sites I used to frequent.

I was very much into Star Trek and Mr Spock about a hundred years ago. There were a lot of Kirk/Spock/Enterprise books published that weren't based on any episodes of the show. Quite a few of those Star Trek books which were written by female authors were rather obvious Mary Sues: there was a strong female character thrown into the mix, who usually ended up saving everybody. Of course, in the next book (which was written by some other woman) the heroic female from the previous book was gone, and instead there was a brand new, strong female character who ended up saving the day... in the next book no one had ever heard of that other amazing heroine (and not of the first one either), but instead there was a third strong female character who ended up saving the day... and in the next book.... :rolleyes:

Ann

I know exactly what you mean, Ann.

Not to mention, the continuity in the Star Trek novel world was horrendous.

Haha, well this is how I describe it as well. I always saw some of the other definitions people gave as just OOC fics and people who didn't know how to keep a character in character when writing. I don't think a lot of young writers are writing themselves into so much as they just haven't learned how important correct characterization is.

Sadly, if they are writing on FF.net it will be a long time coming for them to learn this skill. They all seem to flock to each other's stories and fawn over the very stupid ones leaving the really great ones dusty and in need of love.

Yup. But unfortunately, there are some fandoms for which you can ONLY find fanfic at ffn. Thankfully, ours isn't one of them.

I think the Canon Sue/Stu thing came about in the BtVS fandom because, even beyond a lack of knowledge about how to keep a canon character in character, the authors really DID want to be Buffy (or Angel, or Xander, or Spike...), or at least wanted the character to do what THEY wanted him/her to do, whether or not that particular action/situation/decision was OOC--the author, in these cases just didn't care.

Yeah... I did the Mary Sue thing in my head more than once.. Growing Pains and Saved by the Bell come to mind *cringe*. I have used myself in a fic once that I can think of. Clark was trying to make a point about how if we could change something in our past and we did it would change who we are today [Time and Again which I read last night is a good example of that] and I used his friend 'Carol' from high school as an example [my mom died when I was a kid and as much as I miss her if she'd lived I'd probably never have met my husband etc.] but that's it.

/me avoids ff.net for a reason...
Carol

No, actually that was Tryst . Did I describe her as a Mary Sue? I did keep her in the background. I think Ginny was more a case of me drawing from real-life experience. If she'd been a full-blown Mary Sue, she'd have been stunningly beautiful and exceptionally skilled at running the whole newsroom. She'd have given Perry tips when he was unsure what to do. And, of course, she'd have played a major role, comforting Clark about Lois's "death" but then nobly giving him up when Lois returned...

Did you ever actually read that one, Carol? I know you weren't reading it while I was posting, since, eventual happy ending notwithstanding, you didn't care for me making Lois into a ghost.

The one where Clark was Kal was Hearts Divided , and I'll tell you right now, none of my original characters were Mary Sues.

The closest I ever got to writing Canon Sue, probably, was A Special Child , since that was based on my experiences. But I made a conscious effort to keep Lois in character; she reacted to similar things differently than I had.

PJ
who really should stop posting while on cold meds...

Have you tried the Yuletide archive (I think that's what its called, not so sure)? I heard of it only recently. Apparently it specializes in getting fic from small fandoms and from what I hear, the quality is generally pretty good.

All of this is hearsay though, I haven't had time to trawl through it properly yet.

alcyone

Pam wrote:

You know, in my mind when I made that comment I kept thinking "Tryst". Should have gone with that gut feeling.

And yes I did read Tryst! Even sent you longish feedback when you'd finished it, Pam - I thought it was a lovely story. It especially sticks in my mind not just because it's one of my favourite "Pam" stories but also because at the time I was GEing a story that had a similar premise. Interesting that you only remember my concern about the ghost. Anyway, I'm no good with suspense and so I do tend to wait for those endings.

LOL - so true.

c.

Do Mary Sues have to be the good guys? Or could a person create a character that was evil that was based on oneself? Would that still be a Mary Sue?

[Just curious - cause any character based on me would have to have angel like qualities }]

ML

ML, I took a look through the Wiki article nepenthe suggested, and there was something about evil Sues, you'll have to check it out though because I don't remember much about it.

Just for funsies, I ran a couple of my original characters through a Mary Sue test, and I'm proud to report that neither of them were Mary Sues! However, they did suggest that I wasn't as connected to my protagonist as I should be, which goes to show how those quiz thingies can be so wrong

Sounds like a Scary Sue to me.

JD

I have never used the 'Gary Stu' format in any story. If I wanted to be in a fic, I just put myself, as Tank, in it.

Tank (who figures it's much simpler that way)

It might be simpler Tank, but then again I never saw you put an idealized version of yourself in the story. For example, you never describe Tank as an Adonis with rippling muscles and a mane like Fabio. The girls don't sigh and faint at your feet. Also, Superman rarely asks you for advice on how to deal with the current crisis. Therefore, even when Tank appears in your stories, it isn't a Mary Sue character. (Although you have lived out quite a few hair-cutting fantasies in the pages of your books.)

Elisabeth

Well, don't forget, as someone once calculated, the average reader age on ff.net is eight. Or, at least, it was back then. I haven't been there for a while, so it's possible things have changed.

LabRat

Really? I always thought it was at least twelve. Guess I was being overly optimistic.

Since I'd never visited ff.net, I decided to pop over there and see if there was anything I might like. I found this:

There are five comments posted in response to this message. Two of those are from Laryx, one of the board operators.

I wonder what Laryx and sunspark originally envisioned that site being? Judging from the lack of outcry over the closing, I'd guess that there aren't many people posting to it or reading anything there, unlike this MBS.

Still, it's sad when something that's been around for a while goes away.

Actually, Terry, it looks like that was for another site. Although people often refer to it as ff.net or ffn (for convenience), it is actually www.fanfiction.net

And it is growing constantly. Several of our own best writers post there, either simultaneously or after posting here on the boards/archive. And I believe, on more than one occasion, a new author has posted there, someone here has seen the story and contacted them, and then this new author came and joined our happy band as well.

Right now there is a fascinating story "what-if" story in progress there called "Freedom of the Press", which takes off on TGGGOH and what might have happened if Trask hadn't been killed. I just discovered it yesterday, and devoured all three chapters posted thus far.

I only dabble in a couple of fandoms there, but the place is vast.

Kathy

My apologies, Kathy. I'm glad to hear that fanfiction.net is thriving. In fact, I plan to check it out this week. What the hey, I can sleep next month.

You're right, Terry, definitely not worth losing sleep over.

Truthfully, I would imagine that in many of the fandoms there you would find a lot of garbage, as well as some real gems. Unfortunately, the only way to find out is to wade through it.

Kathy

Getting back to Mary-Sues:

Interesting article on the 150-year history of Mary-Sues
Short but very pointed Harry Potter Mary Sue comic strip
Longer and VERY silly Harry Potter Mary Sue comic strip

That's funny. I put Tank in one, too.

I think I used Knat Nosliw a time or two... I know Missy and I used it in the 'Tank hates Jimmy and Lois needs a haircut' fic we wrote...


Carol

Marcus, I remember reading that history when I was puzzled about what the heck a Mary Sue was, too. <g> It was pretty long, but interesting... and enlightening!

I don't think I've written original Mary Sues, but I'm probably guilty of Sueing a canon character here and there in my early WIPs. (Actually, I did have an original Mary Sue a couple of times, but it was in my indulgent original stories when I was 13-14, heh.)

I can't help thinking that there is a justification for Mary Sues: most main characters in the shows I watched when I was a pre-teen and younger were Mary Sues. A beautiful girl with a tragic past, a huge heart, and courage to top any dashing hero's, who has several men fall for her while she only has eyes for one - sounds familiar. This is what a lot of young teenagers end up thinking a heroine should be like, through no fault of their own. Mostly.

Many canon characters can be argued to fit the profile (certainly many that match the above description), but they're particularly disliked in fanfic, and I think the reason is that when fans (can't speak for everyone, but at least some of us) seek out fanfic, they're mostly looking for stories about the characters already known to them, and don't care for OCs (which can still done well, of course, as in many L&C fics). I'm talking about OCs that take over as main characters, of course, not secondary ones.

Then there's the issue of popular romantic relationships. I'll admit it - I'm a total sucker for romance in fanfic and though I enjoy a well-written fic that doesn't have any, I'll still go back to romance. And I like Lois to end up with Clark. So I would probably not want to read a fic in which Clark meets Winter Sparkle Sunshine, falls in love with her and shoves Lois to the side. Again, to each their own, but this is me, and true for many fans.

If anything here makes less sense than it should, it's because I should be asleep right now. <g>

Julie

This is a really good article on the Mary Sue phenomenon.

I think the closest I've come to a Mary Sue story is probably "Sick Day"... but I didn't put 'myself' in that story (well, not really) I put Sue S. in the story. Hee hee... And it was mainly to cheer her up because she was sick.

Side note -- I only began posting at fanfiction.net because I started writing a Heroes fic and I had absolutely no idea where else to post the story except there. I haven't found any awesome place like we have here... well... anywhere. So I took what I could get.