Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Related Religion in Fiction?

THE ACTIONS of Brown have precipitated in increased fear of a movement of people who are only there because they want to HELP others....

so long as authors are open and honest when they portray any figure of authority as involved in some sort of conspiracy theory their works would undoubtedly become a valuable to the community for their literary worth... but if they act in the way Brown did and use the controversy behind the lies as a method of free publicity (Brown made an fortune from the interviews and other media coverage that dealt with his works, saved millions on publicity adverts and made millions from the sales of the books bought by people who were interested in "finding out what the controversy is all about ....and why people are talking")

For me, a symbolic condemning of religion (specifics or in general) is bringing religious content into a story. Bringing it in in negative fashion, but still definitely including it.

Wonderful post beethoven

I've seen this debate so many times--it's used a lot to talk about why large groups of people do horrible things. I've seen it used in trying to explain why the Nazi state happened. Were the people just automatons or did they want a genocidal, fascist regime? I can see how if one's affiliations are brought into play (as in your case) it can leave one feeling attacked no matter how one looks at it.

You also said:

So then I gather that it's a matter of research and finding a figure/organization which is already questionable to avoid damaging their reputation and creating the situation Brown created for the real life members of Opus Dei.

I guess my question (purely speculative) would be then--in the abscence of such a figure (not specifically referring to the RCC but more generally), is how much more ethical would it have been to "make up" (in the Dan Brown case) an organization if one gets the 'background' of the religion right?

And no, I also don't think authors should steer clear of controversy and I agree with those that say that someone will always be offended especially when dealing with some heavy topic. But this is all theoretical. The practice of sitting at your desk and writing something just to wait for the shoe to drop is probably something else entirely.

alcyone

Tell me, Beethoven. As far as I know, the Pope says that "artificial contraceptives" (condoms, the pill, the Dutch cap etcetra) are absolutely forbidden and extremely sinful. Now imagine a married couple who can't make "safe periods" work. They either use artificial contraceptives and doom their immortal souls, or they abstain from sex, or they have perhaps ten babies even though they don't want to. Do you agree with the Pope that they mustn't use contraceptives, because that is a mortal sin, because the Pope says so? If you agree with him, then it seems to me that you really are saying that a married woman who is really fertile has no choice but to have ten babies if she can't persuade her husband to sleep on the couch, and if she doesn't want to commit a mortal sin by using birth control.

Of course, if you don't agree with the Pope that contraceptives are sinful, then the poor super-fertile woman's problems have nothing to do with you.

Ann

Uh, guys? Remember that nice rule about religious and political debate on the internet?

Let us not forget that *all* religion essentially boils down to an individual's own beliefs and actions. Some Catholics hang on the Pope's every word (I imagine) and others just tell him to shove it (in a matter of speaking). The same is true for every other group under the sun.

So if a woman has 10 kids, it's not Beet's fault regardless of response.

One last plea, before this thread becomes a controversy in its own right:
PLEASE Limit Discussion To "Depiction of Religion In Fiction".

Anyone who wishes to air views on relion itself in ideals and practices can write their thoughts down on a piece of paper and file it in the circular bin. Thank you.

Thank you QC...
I never intended my post to be an invitation to discuss any of these details here because frankly they HAVE been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere, and I think they are particularly irrelevant to the majority of stories posted on this site....

even though the RCC openly preaches to all who will listen about the "evils" of artificial contraception, the Church NEVER openly condemns each and every individual... She has moved a long way from stoning the prostitute....


My posts were originally intended to merely point out to you guys the dangers that come from misinterpretations of commonly known (or not so commonly known) teachings ... I intended to point out to you guys that not all followers of the Church's teachings are ignorant slaves to some autocratic male dominated hierarchy that there are millions of people in Western nations who CONSCIOUSLY CHOSE to follow the Church and that we too are thinking individuals who were under no duress when we made our decisions....


so Ann please don't persecute me, however I for one want to point out that it is reactions such as yours which I object to... reactions which make it feel like I am an ignorant and gullible sheep because this makes me feel at one level insulted, but at a deeper level (I guess) I feel saddened that you think so little of my abilities to choose for myself that you have militarised your own life in order to "Protect me" from the "Evil Pope


by the way QC...
here in Australia a QC (Queen's Counsel) is (was) a high-ranking title given to barristers, sort of an honorary title given by the states to honour their achievements in courts of Law.... (It has been replaced by something else - I think SC or State's counsel- recently because of the whole republic debate...)

so congrats on earning your silks (silk robes are bestowed onto QC's or SC's)

Oooooh, silks!
Thanks, Beet!

--QC (Technically half Catholic, half Protestant, half Messianic, and half Other, so I sympathize. )

Now, who wants omelettes?
Or better yet, who thinks that it makes a significant difference which character is the practitioner of the religion-in-question, even if the story does not say if that person is right or wrong?

WOW, almost as bad as me
Out of 4 Grandparents


Mum's parents
D=Polish-Jew (Born in Poland-Emigrated during WW2)
M=Irish/Australian-Born in Oz, from Irish decent
they met here in Sydney....

My Father's Parents:
D=had a Polish mother and Greek Father-he was born in Poland

M-was born in Poland, had three polish grandparents
+ her maternal Grandfather who was from a town in the Alps somewhere on the Swiss-Italian boarder (pretty well half the town was Protestant and half Catholic- and it all had to do with the surname....the town had four surnames in total
A, B, A-B and BA...and you could basically tell the religion by the surname, only my ancestor was the wrong one apparently....


My Dad's parents met in Ghana of all places,
G'pa was running some family business (Polish airmen based in Canada used Ghana as a stop-over on the way from Canada to fight in Europe... thus his father set up some business there), and G'ma was working as Doctor, after moving to Scotland during the war and studying medicine in London after)
... they met in the emergency ward after G'pa had some motorbike accident or something...D was born there and they eventually came here after the changeover from colonial to African rule...

My parents met here in Sydney, and all of my G'parents have spent our entire lives instilling in us the importance of our heritage

Beethoven wrote:
I never read Ann's points as persecuting you at all, but rather as counters to the points which you had origiinally raised. As such they struck me as no more than part of the discussion.
And an interesting discussion it has been.

Btw, I've read The Da Vinci Code - a really good trash novel. Never violates the formual - keep your sentences short, your paragraphs not much longer, no chapter longer than 3 pages (at the very most!) and a cliffhanger wherever and whenever possible, plus a conspiracy theory involving a sensational topic - e.g. *the* Church, the Mafia. the American or Russian presidency. Also, a car chase would be nice.

I couldn't put it down .

Like many works of fiction, it takes bits of history as well as facts about current institutions and organizations and weaves a fictional tale through them. I don't think anyone believes that every novel she reads is totally fact.

As for the RC thing, well as someone who is married to a lapsed RC (of the Polish heritage variety:) ) and whose sister-in-law is stil a Believer (although of the birth control practising sort ) I've been in the middle of a few of these, uh, discussions Even I, debate-lover that I am, cringe in the corner.

Still it is an interesting question about Lois and Clark's religion. I'd never really thought about it until QC raised the topic.

But clearly Clark was willing to marry (the first non-wedding) in a church and so he must have been okay with the belief system behind it. As the guy who stands for "Truth, J + tAW" it would strike me as OoC for him to swear his marriage vows in a church, otherwise.

Which is a surprising conclusion - I think I rather vaguely thought he was an agnostic. I remember being surprised by that church (and such a grand one!) when we first saw it because of what it implied.

But as was suggested above I can see that Martha (and Jonathan) would have been a church goer - but perhaps for small-town community related reasons as much for religious ones. At any rate, were that the case, Clark would have gone to church as a kid with them.

I guess stories of comic book superheroes are really just contemporary myths and myths were often (always?) stories with religious sub-texts.

To tie this in with L & C fanfic - are there any fics that portray either Lois or Clark as church-goers or as being adherents of a religion?

c.

I seem to remember a Christmas fic that portrayed Clark as a church-goer... maybe Methodist? Something pretty common for Kansas. Couldn't tell you what it was, however. And it may not have been a Christmas short story, I just remember that Lois was in Kansas for Christmas and went to church with the Kents (and it was implied that they were real believers and regular church-goers, not just that they went for Christmas and Easter).

I'm not sure if this is because of my religious background, but unlike what seems to be the general consensus here, I've always thought of Clark as a Christian and a regular church-goer. Probably a mainstream Protestant, based on where he grew up (and I always forget the differences between the mainstream denominations). No, it's true that we don't see him go to church, but we wouldn't, necessarily, unless it was part of the story. And I certainly see his behavior and beliefs as consistent with Christianity, even though he doesn't state them outright. His stance for truth and justice, his willingness to sacrifice for others, his attitude about his powers and his choice to use them to help others, are consistent with what a Christian should do.

Would Clark being a Christian make him less of a symbol for the world? I don't know that I've ever seen him as a symbol for the world, per se, but for America. He was created as an American superhero, after all (speaking of the comic to some degree here). And a majority of Americans are Christian, or at least say they are, even if many of them aren't really practicing. In fact, something like a third of the world is Christian, more than any other religion, so if Clark was going to be something, I suppose it would be more representative.

Of course, I'd also *like* Clark to be Christian, so it's probably not shocking that I'm able to see that. Somebody who wants him to be agnostic or even atheist could surely see that in him as well, as long as his religion isn't clearly defined.

I thought the question "does it make a difference which character is religious" was interesting, because it certainly does. It would make much more of a difference, I think, Clark being portrayed such, than, say, Cat being apparently a lapsed Catholic (basing this on the fact that she went to a Catholic church for confession when she thought the world was about to end, but she may have just wanted to "confess"). While we see quite a few TV shows with a Christian (usually Catholic?) character or two, it's rarely the main or central character, unless that's what the show's about. I suppose it's less obtrusive in one character among a large cast or a supporting character.

(Gee, bet you didn't know meerkats were so long-winded, did you?)

/me jumps in and pounces the meerkat!

Hey Sarah!

As I read your post, I realized I agree with you to a degree. Perhaps too, it's how I was raised. Part of me thinks that it's very possible that we just didn't see him going to church etc. But then... they searched for a preacher - would they have had to if Clark in particular already had a home church? The other thing... again this probably has a lot to do with how I was raised, but it was clear that he wasn't necessarily opposed to premarital sex but that they chose to wait for reasons other than religious ones. It's not considered OOC for them to have sex before marriage - usually in the context of a loving committed relationship. There are others - such as Family Hour - where they have a one night stand, but it's not considered OOC. A one night stand isn't necessarily considered OOC for Lois, but generally is for Clark [generally, unless it's Lois].

Again - maybe it's just how I was raised b/c I know a lot of regular churchgoers who don't consider premarital sex a big deal anymore, but I do. They seem to see it as more of a social/emotional issue especially for girls rather than a religious one - if that makes sense? Be careful about having sex before marriage because it's more emotional for girls, don't want to get hurt, seen as loose, etc., rather than don't do it because the Bible says sex outside of marriage is wrong.

Anyway - I have to go take Christopher to the doctor b/c he lost 6oz this week and is back down under 8lbs at 3 months old...
Carol [who pounces the meerkat again for good measure]

Hmm, you make some good points about them searching for a preacher. I guess I was thinking more in terms of him having a home church in Smallville, but of course if he really was strong in his faith he'd have a church in Metropolis, too. There goes that theory. <grin>

I didn't know you had a new little one--congrats! Mine's at the early walking stage and getting in to *everything* now. It's great fun.

But the marrage marrage took place on a hill side, no church,pews, preacher, flower girl, or bride's maid in sight.Was that legit?
BW, Lois and Clark had a one night stand and I missed it?

A 'church' wedding does not require being in a building, it's a matter of who the officiant is, what church he/she is a member of and the service used. Outdoor weddings are done all the time.

But in the case of the hilltop wedding, Look at the license:

According to this, the wedding was a civil ceremony that took place at city hall and Mike signed himself as a 'Divine Representor'.

To me, this means that the ceremony was strictly non-denomational. (But then, Mike is obviously a supernatural being, possibly an angel.)

Here's a link to a larger picture: License

Check out Mike's signature at the bottom. The letters after it are 'ANG'. I always took that to indicate that he was indeed an angel. And doesn't he indicate at some point that he's Lois's guardian angel? Clark's? Sorry, haven't watched the episode in way too long, but I have a distinct memory of the term guardian angel being used early on. I could be making that up as I go along though.

That was one of the elements that I really didn't like about the whole concept of the wedding and that particular episode. The show had been nicely ambivalent about religion throughout and then suddenly we have God lending a hand to make sure Lois and Clark get married and guardian angels being sent down to smooth the way. Urgh. Sorry, but the entire concept wasn't for me.

Give me a nice, traditional wedding without the religious kinks any day of the week.

LabRat

I meant in fanfic. It's not considered OOC for Lois to have the occasional one night stand [though usually his choice not hers, ex: Claude, not like she's just being a 'player' or whatever]. It is generally considered OOC for Clark to have a one night stand, with the possible exception of Lois when they meet as late teens early twenties etc. Our Clark at least - a very different Alt/Else could maybe get away with it...

Yes - Sarah - new little guy is 3mos old! See post in OT for more info *sigh*.
Carol

I think he was everyone's guardian angel. I'm pretty sure Jimmy recognized him, too.

I didn't really care for the angel thing there, either. I don't care whether or not there's a religious aspect to any given show, just didn't think it really contributed anything. Plus, the angel didn't even bother to tell them they couldn't consummate the marriage - and you'd think he'd know about their souls.

I've read a few essays where people have delved into the that realm of thought. Enjoyable reads, however I can't remember any of it. I think Ann mentioned some of it.

I'm not religious and do feel uncomfortable with religion. However, I do find it interesting to study in an academic setting. I was Anglican for a few years ending at 4 or 5yrs. I guess I can't be 'undone' so I guess I shouldn't say "was".

Despite feeling uncomfortable with religion, I wouldn't in fiction. However I am so unaccustomed to having religion discussed or followed (beyond the few shots and mentions in LnC) so that would feel weird having it introduced more into the normal flow of the show.

If a story was posted where it didn’t follow canon (I’m never sure if I’m using that word correctly…actually I’ve never used it before) then it would be more believable to me.

Mike was cute I guess...but irritating. I never 'clued in' on the whole religion aspect though when it first aired. Me silly. I didn't mind the episode, but wasn't fond of Mike.

Gee I think I said that right….sorry tired.

As everyone probably knows, I'm not at all religious, but at the same time I find religion endlessly interesting to discuss. And even I admit that it isn't all bad!

In principle, I would be okay with an Elseworlds story which treats Clark as religious. (Obviously it would be in accordance with the rules of these boards to merge religion and LnC in an Elseworlds setting!) How I really would react to such a story would depend on what it actually had to say about religious Clark. Bottom line, would it turn Clark into the kind of character that kept showing up in the stories that my religious relatives gave me when I was a kid?

Let me describe a typical story that I was raised on. This one was about a boy and a girl, both around sixteen years old. One day the girl found Jesus and was born again, and she joyfully told the boy about it, asking him to open his heart to Jesus, too. The boy scoffed at her, in a way that rang totally false to me ("I don't believe in Our Lord Jesus Christ, Our Redeemer and Saviour!"). Having thus rejected Jesus, the boy instantly became a juvenile delinquent, starting to mug pensioners right away. He was soon caught and put in jail. But the girl pleaded with the judge to let her see the boy and pray with him. The judge relented, the girl got to see the boy, they prayed together, the boy cried and repented, the judge let him out, and the boy and the girl walked off into the sunset, singing and praying as the angels gathered in the sky above them. The End. I have to tell you that I didn't like this story, and if anyone writes an LnC fic which in any way resembles it, I'm not going to like that one, either! But still, it would clearly be within the rules to write such a story and post it here as an Elseworlds tale.

But the religious theme could be explored in more interesting ways in an LnC setting. You could explore ways in which Clark might try to cure his existential loneliness by trying to find a haven in religion. For example, he could become a regular church-goer and a loyal member of his congregation mostly so that he could feel that he was one of these people, that he belonged with them:



Look at this picture. Doesn't the dark-haired guy who can be seen pretty much in the middle of the picture look a lot like Clark? For someone like him, an orphan from another planet, it might feel very good and soothing to be surrounded by so many people and feel that he belonged there.

What if Clark was trying to find a spiritual haven and an explanation for why he is here at all, and an answer to what his mission on the Earth might be? He might become a spiritual seeker, seeking out different religions to see if there was one which could give him the answers he craved. When I was looking for an image to illustrate such a spritual quest, I came across this one:



As you can see, this is the cover of a book written by a man called Imam 'Abdallah Ibn 'Alawi Al-Haddad. That is an Arabic name, and the author is almost certainly a Muslim. I find it far more likely that Clark would try to find his answers within the Christian tradition than in any other religions, but still, it certainly is possible that he might turn to other religions for answers.

Let's consider another possibility:



What if Jonathan and Martha Kent had been stern, strict religious people? If Clark had been raised in such a home, that would certainly have affected his outlook on the world.

It seems to me that Americans often see their religiousness as a part of their patriotism. In comic book canon and in the Superman mythos in general, Superman has often been depicted waving the American flag.



What if he was shown holding the Bible as well as the flag? And in what ways would that change him and the role he played on the earth?



One possibility is that Superman could become a new prophet and a founder of his own religion. He could display his own strength and claim that God had given it to him, because he was God's chosen prophet.



This picture shows Samson using his God-given strength to defeat a thousand Philistines. Superman could show off his strength in a similar way and claim that God had given him his power, so that he, Superman, could show people the way to God.

To summarize, there are many different ways that religion might affect Clark Kent, and surely these questions could be discussed in fanfiction.

Ann

I sincerely hope that I will not be found guilty of hypocrisy over my last couple of posts......I certainly did not intend to sound hypocritical in any way

however, I admit that I suffer insistently from a serious case of what is known around here as the LANE BABBLE GENE....


Please Ann, forgive me for the vitriol, it was not you in person, nor your views that you expressed which I was objecting to


All I tried to do in these last posts was to point out the dangers of misrepresenting the other side....


I too, you may be surprised, enjoy a good suspense thriller....
Did you know before L&CTNAS my favourite TV show was the X-files.....

And while Brown may not be my favourite author, this is mainly due to his ethics as I have never read his works...
And yet I do have to give him some credit for his ingenious marketing strategies and abilities in creating a fast buck on a work which is arguable over his rights to intellectual property (re: the British law suit over breach of copy rights that he won, but it is still undeniable how similar the books are: Davinci Code and "The Search for the Holy Grail"


BACK TO THE TOPIC NOW

I had previously always thought of Lois as Episcopalian... not Catholic (re the super-heroes religions site...) because of her admittance that she had slept with Claude...
But I suppose that despite her contradictory nature when it came to being so riske' with her life and conservative with her body (do you understand that?) I felt the conservative nature of her treatment of sex in seasons 1-2 was more due to her relationship issues with her parents and claude etc. than her religious conservativeness, hence since the qualms she had had no bearings on religious angst, I thought she could not be Catholic as she would have had the whole "NO SEX OUTSIDE OF MARRIAGE" thing drilled into her from birth, and so she would be feeling a religious doubt as well???????


does that make sense as to my reasoning????