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#156870 10/13/07 12:33 PM
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I reread your post, Alcyone, but couldn't figure out what you'd changed. It seemed the same but I must have forgotten something. (which wouldn't surprise me )

What I meant by my statement was that I really didn't think a third party could decide whether I would feel like I had been personally attacked or what Labrat's motivation was. No one could know either of those things with certainty. That's a bit blunter and I was trying to avoid that.

And thanks, Sue. It's good to know there's one thing I've said that someone besides Ann agrees with. smile

c.

#156871 10/13/07 01:04 PM
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I got that much Carol, there really was no need to clarify further.

alcyone


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#156872 10/13/07 01:06 PM
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I have no interest in figuring out what this statement is really saying,
Sorry, Alcyone. I thought that what you meant by the above was that I'd been unclear.

c.

#156873 10/13/07 01:59 PM
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Ann, let me try. I think the reason you become so distressed by deathfic is that you view death as something final, a negation of all value. But a lot of people don’t view death like this.

Presently I’m reading Pressfields “Gates of Fire”. This is a book about the Spartans and Thermopyle and is very much about death, but the focus is not on gloom but on man’s ability transcend fear and death. And that there is a beauty in sacrifice, in overcoming the insurmountable.

Here Leonidas explains to his men why they will stay and die even though everyone urge them to retreat with the rest of the allies, once the Persians are able to surround them.

"If we had withdrawn from these Gates today, brothers, no matter what prodigies of valor we had performed up till now, this battle would have been perceived as a defeat. A defeat which would have confirmed for all Greece that which the enemy most wishes her to believe: the futility of resistance to the Persian and his millions. If we had saved our skins today, one by one the separate cities would have caved in behind us, until the whole of Hellas had fallen."
"But by our deaths here with honor, in the face of these insuperable odds, we transform vanquishment into victory. With our lives we sow courage in the hearts of our allies and the brothers of our armies left behind. They are the ones who will ultimately produce victory, not us. It was never in the stars for us. Our role today is what we all knew it was when we embraced our wives and children and turned our feet upon the march-out: to stand and die.


I don’t know about you but these kind of things send shivers down my spine. And I get elated rather then distressed.

When I started reading L&C fanfic it was for the same reason as watching the show, the feel good factor, I remember reading Sara’s stuff and thinking it was pity such a talented author put so much angst into her story. but gradually I have come to appreciate more of it. Superman is a fascinating figure as much for his values as his powers. Fics that test his mettle has such an appeal. Like Symbolic Angel wrote a fic were Lois gets MS and the couples reaction to it that I found very touching. Or C_A shorty Time enough another fic that technically is a Lois deathfic but to me really is a about the triumph of life and love over oblivion. Much like Leonidas and Dienekes in “Gates of Fire”.
It’s easy to love someone when that love is never tested, and you never really know the value of something until you are asked to pay for it. This is what angst and death is about. At least for me. smile


I do know you, and I know you wouldn't lie... at least to me...most of the time...
#156874 10/13/07 03:39 PM
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Alcyone, thanks so much for posting for me. This DNS error schtick is getting so old. grumble

*reads thread and goes slightly cross-eyed* Nope, am not going to step into this quagmire.

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But you still wouldn't grieve for a living child as if he or she was dead, I'm sure.
Why on earth would I grieve for a living child at all? confused

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And it wouldn't be the same thing for Clark to lose Lois for the rest of his life as it would be for Lois get Clark back safe and sound after she had believed that he was dead.
Well, not for us readers, because we already know he's not dead. That's what I meant when I said TOGOM doesn't pack the same emotional wallop as deathfics do. WE know it's a false death and that the people who grieve now will not be mourning much longer. But the characters' grief is as real to them as an actual death. If you're talking from Lois' POV, well then how on earth would she know her partner wasn't really dead?

Maybe it's just my state of befuddled morning pre-caffeination. dizzy


“Is he dead, Lois?”

“No! But I was really mad and I wanted to kick him between the legs and pull his nose off and put out his eyes with a freshly sharpened pencil and disembowel him with a dull letter opener and strangle him with his own intestines but I stopped myself just in time!”
- Further Down The Road by Terry Leatherwood.
#156875 10/13/07 06:35 PM
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Regarding the fact that I asked LabRat to please not ask Carol to stop posting here, I can now see that LabRat was simply paraphrasing some rules that these boards have. I hadn't read those rules (my bad) and I'm sorry if what I said came out as an attack, LabRat.

Hasini, real death is a permanent thing. It may not be permanent for the deceased person, who may move on to other worlds, other existences, but it is permanent for those left behind on the earth, because the person who has died is taken away from them.

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If you're talking from Lois' POV, well then how on earth would she know her partner wasn't really dead?
She couldn't. But she is going to find out that he isn't. He is going to come back to her. And then his supposed death is going to dissolve like mist in the morning, being replaced by the solid reality of his warm and living body and his eyes smiling at her and his arms encircling her.

Being told that a loved one is dead creates a horrible moment. But it's not the moment that's the worst thing. The worst thing is waking up the next morning and remembering: he is dead. And waking up the morning after that, and remembering: he is dead. And waking up the third morning and remembering... and the fourth... and the fifth... and the sixth... and the one thousand three hundred and fortieth.... That is not the same thing as being told that a loved one is dead, experiencing a horrible moment, and waking up for perhaps quite a few mornings and remembering that he is dead, but then finding out that, no indeed, he isn't. He is alive and well and he has come back to me.

The little fic about the woman and her children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren came to me precisely because this woman couldn't tell the difference between the moment of death and the ongoing reality of death. To her the moment of death is so permanent that having her loved ones back after they have been presumed dead, touching their warm bodies, seeing them live their lives, doesn't change her perception that they are dead. Because she has once been told that they are dead, and then they stay dead to her forever.

Another possible twist on the story of the woman who couldn't tell the difference between the moment of (supposed) death and the permanence of real death is the woman who is told that her children are dead, but since she got one of her children back, she firmly believes that the other one is alive, too. Seeing and touching the cold, stiff body of her dead child isn't going to change that. Burying her dead child isn't going to change that. If she can't see her dead child, she is going to make herself a lifesize doll representing her dead child, and then she is going to treat the doll exactly like she treats her living child: feed it, bathe it, potty-train it, carry it outside so it can play, enroll it in school (and home-scool it if her application is turned down), etcetra.

[Linked Image]

Because the woman who came to me in this story couldn't tell the difference between the moment of supposed death and the unrelenting permanence of actual death. And it seems to me that such a view of (at least fictional) death underlies the idea that TOGOMs and deathfics are the same.

Ann

#156876 10/13/07 07:33 PM
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I'm sure I'm going to get kicked upside the head for saying this, but *please*, Ann, if you don't like deathfics, stop reading them.

And please, please, let us - who for whatever reason may decide to read them - enjoy them in peace.

It gets tiresome to see another really long morality thread every time someone posts a deathfic -- every single time, you come and tell us that you don't like them. We get it. Seriously, we do.

We respect your right to not be subjected to something that you may not want to read by putting a warning on our fics. Please respect our rights to write and enjoy them in return by not posting yet another masked complaint...


Superman: Why is it that good villains never die?
Batman: Clark, what the hell are good villains?
=> Superman/Batman: Public Enemies
#156877 10/13/07 07:52 PM
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Ann, I didn't believe you were criticizing my story. smile You have the right to do that anyway, if you want; I can take it with the best of them. What concerns and disheartens me is that, to my knowledge, every time someone's posted a deathfic or something close to it on the boards, yet another thread is started - usually by you. Lara probably said it best above about "morality threads" and "masked complaints" and that we get it. We understand your dislike and your feeling's of injustice; we've heard them and we respect them, even if we don't agree. Yes, you have a right to post a subject for discussion, within certain limits, of course. But, with this subject, you're toeing a fine line. I'll bet that every author out there has a debate with him/herself before s/he posts anything that might be construed as a "deathfic". I know I did. I wondered, "Is this going to set Ann off again? Should I even bother posting this story that I'm really proud of and want to share? Is it worth all the drama it might cause?" I'm glad I posted my story, but I'm not sure it's worth all the drama.

You see, you've created an environment in which authors may very well be intimidated against posting fic. And that is what's disheartening. I'd hate to think we're missing out on wonderful fics and possible new authors. You're not explicitly telling people what not to write or post, but your repeated treatment of this subject is certainly accomplishing something very similar - discouragement of posting deathfic.

What's worse is that some of the people who do feel intimidated just won't post - their stories or their thoughts. And that's a very sad thing. I'd like to think we're still a community that fosters tolerance.

Sara (who's only a little amused that Ann's muse felt the need to write a fic that included the death of so many women wink )


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#156878 10/13/07 08:03 PM
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Lara - No kicks upside the head from me, but something to consider... If the solution for Ann is to stop reading deathfics (which I think is a good one), then perhaps the solution for you and others is to stop reading these threads. We're here for entertainment. There's no obligation to read everything. If you don't like it... ignore it. It can't affect you if you don't choose to read it.

Moving on to my turn to get kicked upside the head (with, perhaps, more justification)...

Ann, who has said "TOGOM = Lois deathfic"? Can you show me that? Can you post a quote or two where someone makes the point that a TOGOM fic is exactly the same as a Lois deathfic?

My memory isn't so good, and it's been a while, and, to be honest, the issue isn't as important to me as it clearly is to you. So maybe I'm wrong here. But it seems to me that you're just about the only one who cares about this balance, who is trying to equate one type of story with another. (Actually, I think a lot of authors would be insulted by an attempt to judge the relative value or weight of one of their stories.)

It seems to me that you're so stuck on your point (which I understand is a critical one to you) that you've missed the fact that it's not a point that's really relevant to the rest of us. We're not concerned with the balance. We don't care if one kind of story is "equal" to another. We simply don't think in those terms.

You've gone to all this trouble to tell us that TOGOM isn't the same as a Lois deathfic, but you've missed the key thing... We know that. It's just not a distinction that concerns us.

Paul


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#156879 10/13/07 10:03 PM
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Ann, who has said "TOGOM = Lois deathfic"? Can you show me that? Can you post a quote or two where someone makes the point that a TOGOM fic is exactly the same as a Lois deathfic?
No one has said that a TOGOM story is exactly the same thing as a Lois deathfic. However, it has been suggested several times that the surplus of Lois deathfics compared with Clark deathfics may be there because Clark's "death" (and Lois's grief) has already been explored in all the TOGOMs posted here. Therefore, there may be a need for the opposite side of the coin, i.e. there may be a need for stories about Clark's grief over Lois's death, never mind that these stories deal with Lois's actual death. In spite of the fact that TOGOMs and Lois deathfics end so differently, it has been argued that the Lois deathfics could still be seen as companion pieces to the TOGOMs. The first one who suggested this was Wendy. In the latest deathfic discussion before this, it was brought up like this:

Quote
Concerning the preponderance of Lois deathfics? - A lot of interesting and valid points have been brought up in this thread. But how about the fact that in TOGOM, we've already experienced Lois's grieving. But we don't explore Clark's grief, not even in DToDC. And as the Wedding Destroyer indicated when choosing Lois as her victim, Clark's grief will be the deeper, the more profound. Just a thought.
And Sara, the reason why I killed all those girls in the first version of my little fic was precisely because I wanted to say that if the Lois deathfics can be compared with the TOGOMs, then the death of a woman can be compared with the survival of a man.

Paul, I have a suggestion. Why not create a deathfic folder, just like there is an nfic folder? I promise I won't even go near it. In fact, you administrators could deny me access to it!

Ann

#156880 10/13/07 11:52 PM
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Therefore, there may be a need for the opposite side of the coin, i.e. there may be a need for stories about Clark's grief over Lois's death, never mind that these stories deal with Lois's actual death.
Sorry, but you seem to have missed my point entirely.

That's not the way I see that conversation. What I recall is that you raised the question of why there were more Lois deathfics than Clark deathfics, and one of the answers you got was that TOGOM is a way for the author to explore that theme.

Again, not saying that TOGOM = Deathfic. Not saying that there's any comparative value. And explicitly not saying that authors are writing to fill a void or maintain some kind of balance.

There is no "need" for more stories of Type A. There is no comparison that stories of Type A are better than stories of Type B, or that there must be at least n% of Type A stories in relation to Type B stories. That entire approach is completely alien to me, and, I expect, to a good number of authors here.

Saying that TOGOM serves the function and allows the exploration of the theme means exactly that. You can use that existing set-up to explore the theme. It doesn't mean that TOGOM stories need to balance other stories, or that other stories need to be written to balance out TOGOM stories or anything of the sort.

And, if that's what people are doing, then why has no one mentioned the one character who (I believe) has died the most? Lex Luthor. (Only the good die young, but only the evil die often...)

Quote
I have a suggestion. Why not create a deathfic folder, just like there is an nfic folder? I promise I won't even go near it. In fact, you administrators could deny me access to it!
Nfic is a special case. Those stories are segregated for being over the PG-13 limit of the general boards.

The problems with a separate deathfic folder:

1. It would mean mandatory labeling of fics. While labels are encouraged in certain cases, the right of the author to forgo those labels is also important. Whether it's because doing so would spoil the story, because the author objects to labels on principle (understandable, since most of us don't like to be labeled ourselves), or for whatever other reason.

2. If we did it for deathfic, we'd have to do it for every type of story. Which would cause clutter and confusion. And mess things up when a story combined multiple genres.

3. We can't always agree on what constitutes a deathfic. Sometimes, it's obvious. Sometimes... not so much. Does TOGOM count, for example?

4. There just aren't that many deathfics to begin with.

Again... If you don't like them, don't read them. All you have to do is ignore them. No one's forcing you to read them, even if they are lumped into the same forum with everything else.


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#156881 10/14/07 03:26 AM
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Going a bit OT here:

Since the question of policy has been brought up a couple of times in this thread, and I know that a lot of board members are reading/commenting here, I just want to remind everyone that the boards moderator/admin team is always ready to listen to suggestions for policy changes, new ideas for the boards and even complaints if you feel there's a problem. And, you know, sometimes a quick email to the moderators might prevent a long thread where frustrations get vented all over the place wink

I'm certainly not suggesting that everyone should email us whenever some little thing niggles, goofy but just bear in mind that we are out there, we don't always have time to read all threads, and we're very open to listening to comments, suggestions and concerns.

If you don't know how to contact us, mods at lcfanfic dot com will do it - or just click on any of the names that appear beside a forum name on the front page, and that mod will make sure the team gets the message.


Wendy smile
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#156882 10/15/07 05:44 AM
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Been reading this posts (and the others) for awhile now and decided I'd stop hesitating and say something:

Ann, you said:
Quote
Being told that a loved one is dead creates a horrible moment. But it's not the moment that's the worst thing. The worst thing is waking up the next morning and remembering: he is dead. And waking up the morning after that, and remembering: he is dead. And waking up the third morning and remembering... and the fourth... and the fifth... and the sixth... and the one thousand three hundred and fortieth.... That
There's still a cultural/religious/call it what you will difference here. Some of us don't feel that way about death. My mother passed away 15 years ago. While, yes, it was a horrible moment for me in some ways (most of them selfish), I am happy for her, because I do believe in something beyond death. Had I not believed this, yes, I'd still be waking up on day #5,000-something miserable. But instead I choose to focus on the "happier" aspects of her death: she's no longer in pain, and she's with her God and I'll see her again. So to me, death is not final; nor is it an event to make me miserable every day when I awake as you suggest.

And I'll admit that in comparison to TOGOM, I felt "cheated" in DToSC because we only see a very brief view of Clark's grief, as opposed to what we see of Lois' in TOGOM.

Just my 2 cents.

Jo

#156883 10/15/07 05:59 AM
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And I'll admit that in comparison to TOGOM, I felt "cheated" in DToSC because we only see a very brief view of Clark's grief, as opposed to what we see of Lois' in TOGOM.
So maybe he really wouldn't grieve for Lois as much as many people perhaps think that he would.

Ann

#156884 10/15/07 06:14 AM
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So maybe he really wouldn't grieve for Lois as much as many people perhaps think that he would.
<cough> Bullsh--! <cough>

I know you view Superman as being distant from Lois because of your comics background, but the Clark on LnC:TNAOS definitely was anything but. Like Jo said, I felt cheated that we didn't get to see much of his grief either. Because I *know* he felt it.


Lois: You know, I have a funny feeling that you didn't tell me your biggest secret.

Clark: Well, just to put your little mind at ease, Lois, you're right.
Ides of Metropolis
#156885 10/15/07 06:23 AM
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I know you view Superman as being distant from Lois because of your comics background, but the Clark on LnC:TNAOS definitely was anything but.
Here, here!!! *Our* Clark was so full of emotion, so full of feeling. Lois hurt him quite frequently by things she said and did... he often pouted... he was torn apart when they sentenced her to death in the 4th season.

No... Clark didn't show his feelings "on the show" when she supposedly died, because he was in his 'Superman' guise and 'Superman' did not show feelings... not like that. They didn't show us Clark - they didn't take us back to his apartment and let us see him cry.

We got cheated.

-- DJ <who will always ardently defend her emotional Superman :p >


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#156886 10/15/07 07:00 AM
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I wasn't going to post anything on this either, but I had to stick my nose in and say that I completely and totally agree with Sue and DJ. The Clark that we all know and love from the series was a very emotional character. He loved deeply, and I know that he would grieve deeply if anything ever happened to anyone he cared about--especially to Lois. Even Mayson's death upset him, and he wasn't in love with her.


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#156887 10/15/07 07:27 AM
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Totally straying off topic... goofy

Quote
No... Clark didn't show his feelings "on the show" when she supposedly died, because he was in his 'Superman' guise and 'Superman' did not show feelings... not like that. They didn't show us Clark - they didn't take us back to his apartment and let us see him cry.

We got cheated.
OMG, did we ever get cheated! This was why, during and after watching Superman Returns, I squeed endlessly when he cried! Ask Brucie just how long I went on about it - we saw it together. laugh Man, if only we could have gotten some tears on the show. *sigh* (Hmm... maybe *that's* why we like showing Clark's grief so much more than Lois's...)

Btw, love the new icon, DJ!

Sara (who might need to watch the end of SR again just for that moment wink )


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#156888 10/15/07 11:41 AM
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As many have stated, this thread, as many emotion-filled posts as there are, is still somewhat of a shining example of how deeply we can respect each other and debate with dignity.

A suggestion for Ann, if I may make it. If you aren't sure about a fic, and have any suspicions that it may be a deathfic, I would PM the author requesting confirmation one way or the other.

I choose not to get involved in this discussion because I would likely ending up saying something which seemed innocuous to me but could hurt someone. I just don't recognize those things very well.


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I don't know and I don't care one way or the other.
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