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I probably shouldn't post this, but I couldn't resist.

There once was a woman. She had two children, a son and a daughter.

One day she was told that her son was dead, and she grieved for him, because he was dead. And she was told that her daughter was dead, and she grieved for her, because she was dead.

Then her son came back home, for he was alive. And a man carried the body of her daughter back home, for she was dead.

The woman buried her daughter. She watched her son grow up. She grieved for her daughter, because she was dead. And she grieved for her son, because she had believed him to be dead. She grieved for them both equally.

Her son got married. He had two children, a son and a daughter, and so the woman got two grandchildren, a grandson and a granddaughter.

One day the woman was told that her grandchildren were dead. She grieved for her grandson, because he was dead. And she grieved for her granddaughter, because she was dead.

Then the woman's son came back to his mother's house. Her grandson walked beside him, because he was alive. But the son carried the body of the woman's granddaughter, because the granddaughter was dead.

The woman and her son buried the granddaughter. The woman watched her grandson grow up. She grieved for her granddaughter, because she was dead. She grieved for her grandson, because she had believed him to be dead. She grieved for them both equally.

Her grandson got married. He had two children, a son and a daughter, and so the woman got two great-grandchildren, a great-grandson and a great-granddaughter.

One day the woman was told that her great-grandchildren were dead. She grieved for her great-grandson, because he was dead. She grieved for her great-granddaughter, because she was dead.

Then the woman's grandson came back to his grandmother's house. The great-grandson walked beside him, because he was alive. But the grandson carried the body of the woman's great-granddaughter, because the great-granddaughter was dead.

The woman and her grandson buried the great-granddaughter. And the woman grieved. She grieved for her daughter, because she was dead, and she grieved for her son, because she had believed him to be dead. She grieved for her granddaughter, because she was dead, and she grieved for her grandson, because she had believed him to be dead. She grieved for her great-granddaughter, because she was dead, and she grieved for her great-grandson, because she had believed him to be dead.

She thought about her children, her grandchildren and her great-grandchildren.

Her son was an old man.



Her daughter had been disintegrating in the churchyard for a long, long time.



Her grandson was a young man.



Her granddaughter had been disintegrating in the churchyard for a long time.



Her great-grandson was a young boy.

[img]http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/7230...F8CB2C360A55B18DDE69F268284831B75F48EF45[/img]

Her great-granddaughter had just recently been put in her grave in the churchyard.



The woman thought about her children, her grandchildren and her great-grandchildren, and she grieved for them all equally.

Because TOGOMs are the same as Lois deathfics.

I'm completely lost.

I suppose I should read this folder more often, lol.

I'm not entirely sure I get your point. Unless it's that this woman has the worst luck ever with female descendants and is surrounded by people who seem to enjoy jumping the gun on pronouncing someone dead before they've seen the body and checked for a pulse.

Lol! That woman was lucky she didn't have a brother!

Always living up to your reputation, Evilena.

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

That's right. Stories which tell of the death of a beloved fictional character are not always appreciated by the masses. Stories which describe the pain and loss like that which this old woman went through are often difficult to read, because death is not a friend but is an enemy. Not evryone likes this class of story, and not everyone wants to read this type of story. After all, the death rate for human beings is 100%, and why would we want to be reminded of that on a constant basis?

But it seems to me that the old woman grieved for the living as much as she did for the dead. Why, I wonder, did she feel pain for those who still lived? They weren't dead. They were alive. Maybe she was selfish and self-centered and only cared about her own feelings. Maybe she didn't give a flip about the feelings of the other people around her who loved those over whom she grieved but who still lived. Maybe she was so caught up in her own pain that she failed to understand that life goes on whether we want it to or not. Maybe she just didn't want to lose anyone else close to her.

And maybe she didn't understand that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Sorry.

Let me do this a little differently.

Just very recently, a lovely deathfic was posted on these boards, where the dead person was not Lois. Suffice it to say that the dead person was male.

Now let's imagine the story differently. The woman in the story does not have a son and a daughter, but she has two sons. She is told that both are dead, and she grieves for both of them. Then she finds out that one is alive, but she continues to grieve for him as much as she grieves for his dead brother. She grieves for her living son as though he was dead like his brother, although he clearly isn't.

The woman buries her dead son and watches the other one grow up. Her surviving son has two sons, so she has two grandsons. She is told that both her grandsons have died, and she grieves for both of them. Then she finds out that one of her grandsons is alive, but she continues to grieve for him as though he was dead like his brother, although he clearly isn't.

The woman buries her dead grandson and watches the other one grow up. Her surviving grandson has two sons, so she has two great-grandsons. She is told that both her great-grandsons are dead, and she grieves for both of them. Then she finds out that one of her great-grandsons is alive, but she continues to grieve for him as though he was dead like his brother, although he clearly isn't.

Conclusions: TOGOMs are the same as any other deathfics.

Okay, this was probably not a lot less cryptic. As probably all of you know, TOGOMs are stories where Lois watches Clark Kent being shot, and because she doesn't know that he is Superman, she believes that he is dead. Therefore she grieves for his as though he was dead. Later she finds out that he is alive, however, and she is overjoyed.

Deathfics, any deathfics, are of course stories where a key character in LnC dies and remains dead.

When I have complained that there are many more Lois deathfics posted on these boards than Clark deathfics, I have several times been told that it is not really necessary to write any more Clark deathfics, because the topic of Clark's death has been thoroughly explored in the TOGOM stories. To this I have always replied that a TOGOM story is not the same thing as a deathfic. If the person who was believed to be dead turns out to be alive and well, then the story isn't a deathfic but something else. And because of that it isn't at all fair to compare a TOGOM story, where Clark is believed to be dead but is always alive, with a Lois deathfic, where Lois always remains dead. In other words, my point is simply this: A TOGOM story is not the same thing as a deathfic, and a woman who grieves for her living child as much as she grieves for her dead child has simply got her priorities wrong. She has concluded that if she once believed that both of her children were dead, then she must continue to grieve for both of them equally as if both of them were dead, even though one of them is clearly alive and well.

My entire post was a refutation of the idea that TOGOMs explore Lois's grief and Clark's death just as well as Lois deathfics explore Clark's grief and Lois's death. Because that is just not true.

On the other hand, grief is an irrational thing. Who can tell his or her heart what it mustn't grieve for? And besides, the woman in my little fic had reason to grieve for her living son, her living grandson and her living great-grandson. After all, all of her three surviving descendants had seen a sibling die, and two of them had seen one of his own children die. Isn't that reason enough for the woman to grieve for her surviving son, for her surviving grandson and for her surviving great-grandson? It most certainly is. But I'm still saying that the woman was wrong to grieve for the living and for the dead equally. Their fates were definitely not the same, and you shouldn't grieve them equally.

Finally, Elena, that was a most perfect comment! Good thing for this woman that she didn't have a brother! Ah, but if she did, she would have been spared all this grieving, wouldn't she?

Ann

I think there's a huge hole in your theory.

Lois stopped grieving after she discovered that Clark was still alive. The fact that he was still alive didn't lessen her grief at all when she *didn't know* that. When she found out he was still alive, she was overjoyed. She didn't spend the rest of the series (or her life) mourning him because she once thought he was dead.

You're correct in saying that a TOGOM story is not the same thing as a deathfic. One explores grief that ends up having a happy ending, because Clark is not dead. Just like 'Don't Tug On Superman's Cape' has a happy ending because LOIS is not dead (as Clark had briefly thought). To the best of my recollection, he didn't spend the rest of the series mourning her almost-death either.

In a true deathfic, yes, the character is dead. But I'd rather think that those stories are written as a way of showing how we cope with such a huge loss, not as a way to wallow in the grief.

She and us both. :rolleyes:

Which is exactly the point I was trying to make here. So... TOGOMs and Lois deathfics are not the same. Which was my point.

Ann

I can only assume you mean my story, Ann. And I really just don't see what it has to do with your whole post/argument/rant/whatever. You bemoan Lois deathfics and death of women fics, right? This was neither. Why on earth is it being used to make (or even introduce) your point? (Also, I'd hesitate to actually label it a "deathfic".) I'm a bit... disappointed? insulted? that my story brought up this whole subject again. Can't a story be just a story? I realize you're not directly attacking my story - you liked it, even - but the mere fact that it's included (and that I suspect it started this whole thread) feels like an attack.

Regardless if it was my story or not (you're so careful not to mention names), bringing up someone else's story in your convoluted arguments is hurtful and insensitive. Flog your dead horse all you want, but please leave others out of it - no matter how indirectly you include them.

Sara (who's not here to argue the subject at all - just here to "defend" my story)

This topic again?!



I'm starting to get bald spots. :p

Rach

Sara, I'm so sorry! I didn't mean to criticize your story in any way. Please believe that I didn't.

The thing is that I haven't been able to fully let go of the previous Lois deathfic debate (which I initiated, I know), and in that thread, it was again suggested that Lois deathfics are pretty much the same as the TOGOMs. I just felt so helpless when people didn't seem able to understand my objections to that suggestion.

So, yesterday, the story of the woman and her children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren just popped into my head, and I felt that this, finally, explains why TOGOMS are not the same as Lois deathfics. I just felt that if this little story doesn't prove my point, nothing will.

But please, please Sara, believe me when I say that this thread has nothing to do with your story. The reason why I brought up your lovely little vignette at all is that I just needed to say, in all fairness, that the latest deathfic posted on these boards was not a Lois deathfic. (But I can't imagine that anyone would ever compare your fic with a TOGOM story.)

Ann

Alternate conclusion: This woman has a mental defect. She is treating her living descendants as if they are dead. That's a horrible way to behave towards anyone, and she should be made aware that her behavior is not just abnormal, it's abberant.

Life is for living, not simply an opportunity to bemoan one's actual or potential losses. She lost a son? It's a terrible thing to happen to any parent, and since it happened to me I feel a bit irked by this example because parents who love their children don't mourn their deaths before they die. They mourn their bad choices, their mistakes, their own griefs and pains, even their long and eventually fatal illnesses, but a parent who finds out that the child he or she thought was dead but is still alive rejoices. The parent does not continue to grieve over a live child. Therefore your parable is invalid.

Ann, please stop trying to be the arbiter of everyone else's tastes. There are some stories you like that I don't, but that's okay because we're different people with different likes and dislikes. If you have actual evidence of some bias towards Lois dying in various horrible ways just because the authors like to kill and torture her, then present it.

But a morbid tale like this one with a mentally unbalanced central character doesn't bolster your case, and in fact it diminishes your case. If someone has to manufacture scenarios to support his or her point of view, that someone's point of view isn't based on reality. And I'd say that about anyone who tries to present any opinion as fact without supporting evidence.

Please don't take this as a flame. I'm only pointing out the illogic of your stated position. And like some others, I'm a bit tired of Alice and her deathfic flamingos by now.

Please , can we be as tolerant of people's right to post their thoughts as we are of people posting different types of fics?

Explaining *why* we disagree is interesting, helps us understand others and maybe even ourselves. But let's not cross into personal attacks. And let's not misconstrue a person's comment as trying to dictate what others *must* think.

what was that saying attributed to Voltaire?
"I disagree with what you've said, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

[loosely quoted, I believe very loosely]

c.

As I've read Ann's posts, I thought her objection was not to the manner in which Lois is killed, but to the fact that there are *more* Lois deathfics out there than Clark dfs. Nor do I recall Ann making the claim that authors' motivation is that they "like to kill and torture" Lois.

Although maybe that should be torture and kill?

Sorry about posting twice in succession - it's too early in the morning.

c.

I fail to see how much more tolerant we can be than we already are, Carol.

By the way, bit rich to talk about tolerance of people posting different types of fics, when anti-deathfic rants keep popping up. :rolleyes:

Elena, it's the pejoratives, (like 'that's a bit rich' , 'rant', etc:) ), that are used to describe Ann's thoughts that upset me, not that people disagree with those thoughts. As soon as that type of language creeps in, the intolerance shows.

I think maybe you've misunderstood or I explained it poorly - more likely the latter.
What I meant by that was this:
-- We should try to apply the same standard of acceptance to fics as we should to non-fic posts. We should try to be consistent. (And I know as soon as I say "should" I'm in trouble:) )

Often, especially in longer non-fic posts, a person puts as much thought and care into what they write as they do into writing a short vignette. So their feelings are as much on the line as fic writers. Some people chose fiction to express their ideas and feelings, some non-fic posts, some music vidoes.

So I repeat my plea for tolerance.

c.

First off... most writers I know write the stories that come to them. It's not a matter of keeping some sort of cosmic balance between stories of Type A and stories of Type B or deaths of Character A and deaths of Character B.

Second... In TOGOM, Clark turns out to be alive. But the story still serves the same function. It allows the writer to explore the theme of his death. It doesn't have to be "the same" as a Lois deathfic because, again, that's not the point. And the fact that TOGOM is there, ready-made, easy to use, and serving that function means that writers inclined to explore that theme will gravitate towards using TOGOM to do it.

Third... There are a lot more points. Logical holes. Mistaken axioms. But you know what? We've been through all that. Several times. Can we take it as read that you don't like this type of story, but that most of us disagree with your reasons?

Finally... There's also a difference between posting what you like and saying things that make others feel like they can't do the same.

You have the right to post whatever stories you like, so long as they follow the forum rules. You have the right to ignore the stories that aren't to your tastes. You have the right to discuss themes and comment on stories, again as long as you follow the forum rules. (Preferably with common courtesy. For example, you can criticize someone's story, but it's better if you make it constructive criticism, and maybe even include some positive comments about other aspects of the story.)

You even have the right to endlessly rehash old arguments, if that's what you want to do. And others have the right to ignore those posts, if that's what suits them.

But when you start posting attacks, that's a different matter. Whether it's against a single story, a whole genre, or one or more individuals. And it's not that big a step from attacking a story to attacking the author(s) or making the author(s) feel as if they're under attack.

And when you make it clear that a story which even begins to touch on a certain theme will immediately result in another general attack on the genre, when you're actively trying to prevent people from posting stories of that type, when you create a hostile atmosphere which could well make authors hesitate before posting their work... Well, personally... I think that crosses the line.

Even free speech has some limits.

I say this gently because I love Paul.

That's a serious charge - how do we ever know what a person's motivation is? It could, of course be that explanation, but it could, instead, be to raise a question, to discuss and explore the topic with others, or it could be as simple as just wanting to express our own thoughts and feelings or....

I would agree with that - I've been told by a three or four people in private e-mails that they will not ever read any story I write. That's been pretty daunting. I posted a story in the fanfic folder a couple of weeks ago and i can tell you I was really scared. As well, I've been dissuaded from posting fdk in the fic thread. So I understand what you mean, here, Paul.

That's a bit of a dismissal, perhaps. Strongly put too.

I'm less certain about forbidding a discussion on genres. That would mean no discussion of kid-fics, or NK fics, etc.

Free speech has limits, although where those limits should be is hugely debatable. All I'm suggesting is we try to be careful in the use of our language as we comment on other people's ideas, as careful as we are when we comment on fics or videos.

Btw, why have there been so few explorations of "Don't Tug" compared to TGOM, I wonder?

One of the few deathfcis I actually liked btw, is Paul's "The Cape of Good Hope".
(quickly adding that this doesn't mean that everyone ought to like only a few deathfcis and/or that one of them should be Paul's

c.

I don't know why you think people don't understand what you're saying. The level of intelligence found on these boards is high enough for me to confidently say, at least the majority gets you perfectly.

What you fail to come to terms with is that they understand, and still disagree. That happens sometimes in life.

In real life, when your friends disagree with you on a certain topic, do you bring it up again and again to try to convince them, numerous times? I bet you don't. We all like to keep our friends. I fail to see how this is different.

There's nothing left of this horse but bloody pulp.

Carol: You say we can't be sure of your or Ann's motivations, and that's fair enough to say. We're not mind readers. But consider that anti-deathfic threads are just that, anti-deathfic, and by definition, are opposed to this genre, thus the goal must be to discourage further posts of fic that falls into this genre. I would have thought this was obvious.

Julie

I'm sorry, maybe I'm missing something but I fail to see how this is an "anti-deathfic" thread.

I thought all Ann was trying to do was explain why she thought TOGOMS and Lois deathfics were different from each other. That is to say, her argument as to why TOGOMS aren't *really* deathfics....

Am I wrong?

What demonic power possesses me to post in this thread?

Ann isn't attacking deathfic, as I see it. (Although it can certainly look otherwise) She's just challenging the assumption brought in a previous thread that TOGOM fics have as much emotional impact on the characters as actual deathfics do. Ann's stance back then was that Clark deathfics and TOGOM fics couldn't be classed together because Clark doesn't really die in TOGOM. We then went on to have a very interesting discussion about our different perceptions of death and grieving, with the majority of posters agreeing that they grieved not for the bereaved but those who were left behind.

But seriously, Ann, this example seems rather confusing and convoluted to me. I wouldn't have known what you were trying to get at if I hadn't been following the other thread.

You weren't just saying TOGOMs and deathfics were different because of the reaction engendered in the reader. It goes without saying that while we'll feel incredibly sorry for Lois as she is left to grieve the partner she thinks is dead, we ourselves don't feel the finality and emotional wallop of death itself, because we KNOW Clark is going to come back to her eventually. However, what you were saying was that it should be different for LOIS, which to my mind, makes no sense at all. Grieving for someone who one believes is dead is the same as grieving for someone who really is dead.

It should be clear to you by now, Ann, that this depends entirely on a person's perception of death. Some of us believe that the dead have gone to a better place free of the fetters of human pain, there to await us upon our own demise. Therefore, we accept it as fate and we grieve only for those who grieve in turn. Some like you, believe that death means a cessation of all things, without continuance of any sort. Those people will pity the dead and find so called 'untimely' deaths akin to robbery and a cheating of life.

However, these perceptions of death and the ways in which we endure them are shaped by our cultures, our times, our preconceptions, upbringing and a myriad of other factors that run far deeper in our consciousness than simple intellect or reason. Therefore, the art through which we express our ideas are accordingly subjective. There is no one standard through which death and its impact may be judged.

You say TOGOMs and deathfics are different for you, Ann, and that's all right. That's what you conceive in your own unique view of death. However, it does not give you the right to try and impose this view on others, nor to judge others' writing as being lacking if they do not share your views on how death should be dealt with.

And you should have figured by now that people have become sensitized to this topic and such a post can only be seen as inflammatory, no matter what your intentions are. In such a case, at the very least you could have started by clarifying your intent - exploring the difference between TOGOM and deathfic, before hurling this parable into out midst like the proverbial gauntlet. In nay other message board but this, you would by now have been inundated by flames, and you would have brought it upon yourself.

And all for what? Because you persist in delving into an inflammatory topic and because you do not take pains to word it diplomatically enough. Is it really worth it to get so many people's backs up for so little reason?

And Carol, I think you're being over-sensitive. When you purposely chuff up the embers of a fire, you must expect to get singed a little. Nobody here has said anything untoward to Ann, except the fact that we don't think she's playing very nice. I think Julie Stars said it best.

Freedom of speech works both ways. Ann can bring up this topic as many times as she likes, never mind that half the members feel attacked every time she does so. However, it also entitles us to say so when we're tired of seeing what we perceive as the same debate again and again.

In closing however, I just want to re-emphasize the fact that, despite appearances, Ann isn't attacking anybody.

Chill out, guys.

For the record, I wasn't trying to attack anybody when I started this thread. I wasn't attacking any particular person or story, and I wasn't attacking the genre of TOGOMs. (I love TOGOMs, as a matter of fact.) I wasn't, per se, attacking deathfics. I wasn't trying to prevent anyone from posting stories.

I wanted to make the point, to the best of my ability, that TOGOMs are not deathfics and should not be compared with deathfics. Because when these two genres are described as fairly equal, then, in my opinion, the idea of the real, actual death of a character, even a fictional character, is belittled.

Oh, and by the way, Paul...

My little fic came to me and demanded to be told. That's what happened. Of course the sudden popping up of it in my head has a lot to do with the fact that I have spent a good deal of time thinking about deathfics and how deathfics are received, but for all of that, the story just came to me.

Ann

And my point, Ann, is that that is just your opinion. Your perception of death cites that death itself is a far weightier matter than the appearnce of death. However, whether thinking otherwise 'belittles' the deathfic genre as a whole, is purely dependent on the perception of the individual.

In other words, you can't impose your belief on others in this way. You can state it, but you can't impose it, and you surely can't demean the views of others.

Julie, I'm not certain the one logically follows the other. All such a post does is say what a person thinks about deathfic - who knows what that person's motivation is in posting? Just as we can't assume what a writer's motivation is when s/he writes a fic about a particular subject. So, no I don't see that the connection is obvious.

Hassini rightly reminds us that Ann was writing about TOGOM fics, rather than deathfic.

Bt the time I read this thread this morning it had veered away from the TOGOM topic. Because I read it all at once, I was struck by the amount of negativity that ran through. (not all from all posters, I should make clear.) That's why I posted my plea for tolerance.

By 'chuffing the embers' I take it you mean I've posted too much.
My goal was not to chuff embers. So no, it wasn't done "purposely" at all but instead to make a point about the acceptance of the right for people to express a range of ideas without having them written off as 'rants' and even worse.

In that I've failed.

Over-sensitive? I don't know. Who ever does know that sort of thing? Was Sara over-sensitive when she posted? I can't know that for certain, either - but I was dismayed by how upset she was.

Ann, included "In my opinion" in her statement, so beats me how that is 'imposing her belief on others or that she was demeaning the beliefs of others'.

Anyway, I take your hint, Hassini - I'd better stop posting.

c.

Come on, people now. Smile on your brother.

I wasn't intending to enter into this discussion, because I've long since become bored with the endless repetition of it and, to be blunt, I have far more entertaining ways to spend my free time.

But, after reading the entire thread, I did want to just post briefly to say how proud I am of this community and the people who have posted here. Your intelligence, your tolerance, your ability to debate a subject that is contentious and frustrating to so many of you without resorting to flames and, on occasion, with enormous good humour is a huge part of why this forum has the atmosphere it does and why it is such a wonderful place to hang out in.

Hasini - the demons may have prodded you to post, but I applaud you for doing it. Your post is a perfect example of what I'm talking about here - balanced, fair, and able to intelligently make your point without resorting to insults.

You know, I've been asked more than once why I continue to hang out here when I have less interest in LNC than I once did. This is why. Because the people here have more intelligence and respect for each other than on any forum I've ever known. And I'm proud to spend time with you.

Which reminds me, I have fanfic to catch up with...

LabRat

I know I said I had taken Hasini's hint, but Labrat, your post hurts. I felt that Hasini had insulted me by saying that I was "purposely chuffing the embers".

But I do think that elsewhere Hasini has often pointed out things that help in these discusions, and that here she was right to remind us of what Ann had originally posted to start this thread.

Will try harder to take Hasini's hint.

c.

Can't resist posting this.

This boy is called Darin:



A few years ago, he came second in the first season of Swedish Idol. (No one can remember who won.) Since his breakthrough, Darin has been the biggest idol among Swedish teenaged girls.

As a teacher, I just received a number of texts that my students have to read, and then they have to write an essay about one or two of these texts. One of the texts was about the fact that thousands of Swedish girls write Darinfics. In most of these fics, the young girls themselves meet and fall in love with Darin, and he falls in love with them, of course.

A popular subgenre is the Darin deathfics. The most common theme in these fics is that Darin and the girl who wrote the story are prevented from being together, so they commit suicide together. In other stories, the girl dies for one reason or another, and Darin grieves terribly for her. Often he commits suicide so that he can be reunited in death with his loved one.

My point? Uh... I don't know if I have one. But judging from the Darinfics, it is popular among young Swedish girls to fantasize about their own death and what their death would do to Darin if he loved them. And they seem to love to imagine that Darin would kill himself for their sake.

You know what the Bible says? The Lord disciplines those whom he loves (Hebrews 12:6). Maybe in fanfics we should talk about the "Lords" (or Ladies) of their own fanfic worlds, the writers, who sometimes kill those whom they love. And sometimes they drive those whom they love almost crazy with grief by killing the woman their loved one loves. (I'm talking about the Darinfic writers, of course. )

Ann

I hope this will be my last post in this thread. I'm very sorry that I caused some of you grief by talking about dead children, seeing that at least one person here has indeed lost a child.

Finally, I didn't want to make the woman in my story "justified" in any way. I thoroughly agree with you that she is crazy. Really off her rocker.

And a part of her craziness is that she would indeed agree that TOGOMs and deathfics are the same thing.

(However... yes, Hasini, we all view death differently, and I accept that some views will make death an ephemeral thing, a simple passing through of something, and if you hold that view you may indeed think that TOGOMs and deathfics are pretty much the same thing. But you still wouldn't grieve for a living child as if he or she was dead, I'm sure. And it wouldn't be the same thing for Clark to lose Lois for the rest of his life as it would be for Lois get Clark back safe and sound after she had believed that he was dead. And this is true no matter what your views on death are.)

Ann

<sigh>

Hasini can correct me if I've misunderstood her point, but to me that comment wasn't even aimed at you, Carol. I interpreted it as being Ann who 'chuffed the embers'. Which is, imo, an entirely fair comment considering that Ann began her post with 'I probably shouldn't post this, but...' Which seems to me a clear indication that she knew when she started the thread that she was embarking on yet another contentious discussion about a subject that she knows is going to provoke people.

That's her right, but - as Hasini points out - neither she nor you can then expect to not provoke a predictable response or complain when it occurs. There have been enough threads on this one over the years for it to be no surprise whatsoever as to what that response will be.

Secondly, that you have been hurt by a post of mine which had no other intention than to praise this community for its tolerance and positive spirit, simply makes me agree with Hasini that you seem to be somewhat over-sensitive on this subject. So perhaps it is a good time for you to call a halt and you're correct about that decision. For your own wellbeing, if nothing else. If it's reached the stage where you're finding insult in such a general post, then something's gone wrong somewhere, I think, and you have to ask yourself if it's worth staying in the discussion and getting yourself upset to this extent.

Anyway, this is my last post on this one.

LabRat

Well, if you consider crazy someone who thinks TOGOMs and deathfics are the same thing, I wonder what you'd think if I told you I dislike deathfics that have a happy end. I just feel cheated. You killed them? Leave them dead, for heaven's sake!

Okay this is OT, I'm sorry. I'm always fascinated by fic discussions--this has nothing to do with deathfic, TOGOM

I'm with Elena...

I know!!! Oftentimes, I feel like a happy ending cheapens what happened before it because suddenly all the bad stuff vanishes just like that. I think it's really hard to end fics that have a lot of trauma in them, it's really easy for them to seem contrived. So actually it isn't that I'm sadistic and want the charas to suffer, but that in terms of narrative an easy fix sometimes doesn't satisfy. My own opinion, in any case.

alcyone

So it wasn't my last post. Sorry.

LabRat, you said this to Carol:

Since Carol often agrees with me, it's easy for me to take her side, of course. But since I tend to pay attention to what Carol posts and what kind of responses she gets, I know that some pretty hurtful things have been said to her.

Carol is a very talented writer and member of these boards, with some pretty terrific stories under her belt. She cares deeply about the "soulmate-ship" of Lois and Clark. She insists that the show told us that Lois and Clark were indeed soulmates. She likes to make the point that since these boards are dedicated to the show, the best stories posted here reflect the "unique soulmate-ship" between Lois and Clark that was established on the show.

Not everyone agrees with Carol. And it is, of course, everyone's right to disagree with her.

But I know that Carol is deeply hurt when she is attacked personally. I know that she takes it particularly hard when people tell her that she is just plain wrong or that she might as well stop posting. She has already stopped posting on fanfics, which to me is a deep loss. So please don't tell her to stop posting in other threads as well!!! Please?

Ann

I am posting for Hasini who has been locked out by the DNS error thingie

Let me say that again.

Hasini wrote this.
(I would never want to take credit for her very valid and well reasoned arguments. I'll be rendering it in italics to make sure that it's even more set apart--it might be annoying, but bear with us)

Now on to the post...

--start Hasini's post--


I'm sorry, WHAT? That just came out of left field.



Firstly, I didn't mean you at all, Carol. I merely meant that Ann knew this topic wouldn't be received too kindly especially as the furor created by the previous deathfic thread has barely died down. Yet, she posted it, anyway.



(I think I understand how that misunderstanding came about. I used 'you' in the second sentence not in reference to you, but as a general pronoun. Like, 'one', you know. Of course, there was no way you could have known that. My apologies. )



Secondly, give me a little credit. I hope I've never come across as being so boorish as to stop anybody from posting anything they wanted to say. Quite the contrary. In fact, the saying you cited, "I disagree with what you've said, but I will defend to the death your right to say it," is one of my own life's credos.



But I don't think you need to defend Ann's right to post, Carol. Everyone here knows and loves Ann, and we listen to her and give anything she says due consideration. Saying that we find something that she insinuates as offensive, is not an attack on her; it's a defense of ourselves. Give us a little credit, on that count.



And just now, you basically said, Ann, that if we equate Lois's grief over Clark's supposed death with Clark's grief over Lois's actual death, it is degrading an entire genre. Maybe it's just me, but I feel like my view point was pretty demeaned. Just saying "in my opinion" does not make it inoffensive. If you apply that logic, some of the members of these boards could well say, "In my opinion, anybody who posts soft core pornography about a family-oriented TV show is perverted. I'm not saying that everybody should think so, but I just think it's perverted." Somehow, I don't see us nfic writers and readers feeling placated by that, can you?



As for over-sensitivity, I simply meant that you shouldn't be so quick to take offense when somebody takes a defensive tone about such an inflammatory subject. Sara felt like her story was being attacked. Nobody has ever attacked anything I've written, but I imagine I would feel quite as threatened if I thought somebody was trying to do so. It's a bit like a mother defending her child. I just think that instead of automatically perceiving that defensiveness as intolerance, you should understand why people feel defensive about this subject, and then lay their fears to rest.



And if even that fails, I'll just say "that's just my opinion" and abandon that line of discussion.



I agree with you whole heartedly, Labbie. That's the main reason I came up with the idea for a "hug" thread in the OT folder, just so we could all give this place the open appreciation it deserves.



Thanks a lot, Labbie! We're really all just following your lead.

--end Hasini's post--

Ann said:

This is a chronic misreading of Labrat's post that attributes a harshness I did not see present. Labrat simply paraphrased something right out of "The Peacekeeping Mission of Debate,
Discussion & Critique in a Public Forum"...

and I quote:

Found in Critiquing L&C Fanfic

To go back to Ann's post:

The implication in the statement above is that Labrat has personally attacked Carol, given the ordering of the sentences (thesis followed by support) and the final plea.

Ann's insinuation is extremely (and dare I add, outrageously) inconsistent with what we know of Labrat as an active participant of this forum.

alcyone

Hasini had written:

I assumed that the pronoun in the second sentence referred to me since my name was mentioned in the preceding sentence. As well, those two sentences were isolated in a separate paragraph from what followed. I don't think I was being either illogical or over-sensitive to assume that "you" referred back to "Carol".. Rules of grammar and all that. I also assumed that Labrat (and others for that matter ) would take that sentence's meaning from its grammatical structure.
I had no idea that Labrat would not, so when she congratulated people on not insulting anyone, I wondered why she had ignored what Hasini had written about me and frankly felt "hurt" that she'd overlooked that.

I certainly can't feel hurt when someone lauds tolerance, however:) I would have thought that, given that tolerance was what I had been stressing throughout my posts, that Labrat would have not thought that I *would* be hurt by her reference to it. As well, I cited in that post the part that had bothered me, and so I assumed that Labrat would understand that that particular quote was what I was addressing. But she didn't, and that's my fault perhaps for not beginning with a repeat of my plea for tolerance.

Yes, indeed. I guess that's what we were all doing, a bit of self-defense It's a two-way street. Although, it's beginning to seem like a round-about.

But, Hasini, I appreciate your clarification of what you really intended.: ) Not many people here have done that.

Alcyone wrote:

Perhaps it's for me to say whether I felt personally attacked by Labrat's saying I should stop posting, and also for Labrat to say whether she intended to attack me or not, and for Ann to say what she was "implying"

But thanks, Ann.

c.

I have no interest in figuring out what this statement is really saying, because I have a feeling that it will only trigger more unpleasantness.

I will, however, add (as I have changed my original post) that I am providing an interpretation on what is written and nothing else.

alcyone

Amen! Not just this thread, but every thread I've seen in the past year and half that refers to deathfic.

I reread your post, Alcyone, but couldn't figure out what you'd changed. It seemed the same but I must have forgotten something. (which wouldn't surprise me )

What I meant by my statement was that I really didn't think a third party could decide whether I would feel like I had been personally attacked or what Labrat's motivation was. No one could know either of those things with certainty. That's a bit blunter and I was trying to avoid that.

And thanks, Sue. It's good to know there's one thing I've said that someone besides Ann agrees with.

c.

I got that much Carol, there really was no need to clarify further.

alcyone

Sorry, Alcyone. I thought that what you meant by the above was that I'd been unclear.

c.

Ann, let me try. I think the reason you become so distressed by deathfic is that you view death as something final, a negation of all value. But a lot of people don’t view death like this.

Presently I’m reading Pressfields “Gates of Fire”. This is a book about the Spartans and Thermopyle and is very much about death, but the focus is not on gloom but on man’s ability transcend fear and death. And that there is a beauty in sacrifice, in overcoming the insurmountable.

Here Leonidas explains to his men why they will stay and die even though everyone urge them to retreat with the rest of the allies, once the Persians are able to surround them.

"If we had withdrawn from these Gates today, brothers, no matter what prodigies of valor we had performed up till now, this battle would have been perceived as a defeat. A defeat which would have confirmed for all Greece that which the enemy most wishes her to believe: the futility of resistance to the Persian and his millions. If we had saved our skins today, one by one the separate cities would have caved in behind us, until the whole of Hellas had fallen."
"But by our deaths here with honor, in the face of these insuperable odds, we transform vanquishment into victory. With our lives we sow courage in the hearts of our allies and the brothers of our armies left behind. They are the ones who will ultimately produce victory, not us. It was never in the stars for us. Our role today is what we all knew it was when we embraced our wives and children and turned our feet upon the march-out: to stand and die.

I don’t know about you but these kind of things send shivers down my spine. And I get elated rather then distressed.

When I started reading L&C fanfic it was for the same reason as watching the show, the feel good factor, I remember reading Sara’s stuff and thinking it was pity such a talented author put so much angst into her story. but gradually I have come to appreciate more of it. Superman is a fascinating figure as much for his values as his powers. Fics that test his mettle has such an appeal. Like Symbolic Angel wrote a fic were Lois gets MS and the couples reaction to it that I found very touching. Or C_A shorty Time enough another fic that technically is a Lois deathfic but to me really is a about the triumph of life and love over oblivion. Much like Leonidas and Dienekes in “Gates of Fire”.
It’s easy to love someone when that love is never tested, and you never really know the value of something until you are asked to pay for it. This is what angst and death is about. At least for me.

Alcyone, thanks so much for posting for me. This DNS error schtick is getting so old.

*reads thread and goes slightly cross-eyed* Nope, am not going to step into this quagmire.

Why on earth would I grieve for a living child at all?

Well, not for us readers, because we already know he's not dead. That's what I meant when I said TOGOM doesn't pack the same emotional wallop as deathfics do. WE know it's a false death and that the people who grieve now will not be mourning much longer. But the characters' grief is as real to them as an actual death. If you're talking from Lois' POV, well then how on earth would she know her partner wasn't really dead?

Maybe it's just my state of befuddled morning pre-caffeination.

Regarding the fact that I asked LabRat to please not ask Carol to stop posting here, I can now see that LabRat was simply paraphrasing some rules that these boards have. I hadn't read those rules (my bad) and I'm sorry if what I said came out as an attack, LabRat.

Hasini, real death is a permanent thing. It may not be permanent for the deceased person, who may move on to other worlds, other existences, but it is permanent for those left behind on the earth, because the person who has died is taken away from them.

She couldn't. But she is going to find out that he isn't. He is going to come back to her. And then his supposed death is going to dissolve like mist in the morning, being replaced by the solid reality of his warm and living body and his eyes smiling at her and his arms encircling her.

Being told that a loved one is dead creates a horrible moment. But it's not the moment that's the worst thing. The worst thing is waking up the next morning and remembering: he is dead. And waking up the morning after that, and remembering: he is dead. And waking up the third morning and remembering... and the fourth... and the fifth... and the sixth... and the one thousand three hundred and fortieth.... That is not the same thing as being told that a loved one is dead, experiencing a horrible moment, and waking up for perhaps quite a few mornings and remembering that he is dead, but then finding out that, no indeed, he isn't. He is alive and well and he has come back to me.

The little fic about the woman and her children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren came to me precisely because this woman couldn't tell the difference between the moment of death and the ongoing reality of death. To her the moment of death is so permanent that having her loved ones back after they have been presumed dead, touching their warm bodies, seeing them live their lives, doesn't change her perception that they are dead. Because she has once been told that they are dead, and then they stay dead to her forever.

Another possible twist on the story of the woman who couldn't tell the difference between the moment of (supposed) death and the permanence of real death is the woman who is told that her children are dead, but since she got one of her children back, she firmly believes that the other one is alive, too. Seeing and touching the cold, stiff body of her dead child isn't going to change that. Burying her dead child isn't going to change that. If she can't see her dead child, she is going to make herself a lifesize doll representing her dead child, and then she is going to treat the doll exactly like she treats her living child: feed it, bathe it, potty-train it, carry it outside so it can play, enroll it in school (and home-scool it if her application is turned down), etcetra.



Because the woman who came to me in this story couldn't tell the difference between the moment of supposed death and the unrelenting permanence of actual death. And it seems to me that such a view of (at least fictional) death underlies the idea that TOGOMs and deathfics are the same.

Ann

I'm sure I'm going to get kicked upside the head for saying this, but *please*, Ann, if you don't like deathfics, stop reading them.

And please, please, let us - who for whatever reason may decide to read them - enjoy them in peace.

It gets tiresome to see another really long morality thread every time someone posts a deathfic -- every single time, you come and tell us that you don't like them. We get it. Seriously, we do.

We respect your right to not be subjected to something that you may not want to read by putting a warning on our fics. Please respect our rights to write and enjoy them in return by not posting yet another masked complaint...

Ann, I didn't believe you were criticizing my story. You have the right to do that anyway, if you want; I can take it with the best of them. What concerns and disheartens me is that, to my knowledge, every time someone's posted a deathfic or something close to it on the boards, yet another thread is started - usually by you. Lara probably said it best above about "morality threads" and "masked complaints" and that we get it. We understand your dislike and your feeling's of injustice; we've heard them and we respect them, even if we don't agree. Yes, you have a right to post a subject for discussion, within certain limits, of course. But, with this subject, you're toeing a fine line. I'll bet that every author out there has a debate with him/herself before s/he posts anything that might be construed as a "deathfic". I know I did. I wondered, "Is this going to set Ann off again? Should I even bother posting this story that I'm really proud of and want to share? Is it worth all the drama it might cause?" I'm glad I posted my story, but I'm not sure it's worth all the drama.

You see, you've created an environment in which authors may very well be intimidated against posting fic. And that is what's disheartening. I'd hate to think we're missing out on wonderful fics and possible new authors. You're not explicitly telling people what not to write or post, but your repeated treatment of this subject is certainly accomplishing something very similar - discouragement of posting deathfic.

What's worse is that some of the people who do feel intimidated just won't post - their stories or their thoughts. And that's a very sad thing. I'd like to think we're still a community that fosters tolerance.

Sara (who's only a little amused that Ann's muse felt the need to write a fic that included the death of so many women )

Lara - No kicks upside the head from me, but something to consider... If the solution for Ann is to stop reading deathfics (which I think is a good one), then perhaps the solution for you and others is to stop reading these threads. We're here for entertainment. There's no obligation to read everything. If you don't like it... ignore it. It can't affect you if you don't choose to read it.

Moving on to my turn to get kicked upside the head (with, perhaps, more justification)...

Ann, who has said "TOGOM = Lois deathfic"? Can you show me that? Can you post a quote or two where someone makes the point that a TOGOM fic is exactly the same as a Lois deathfic?

My memory isn't so good, and it's been a while, and, to be honest, the issue isn't as important to me as it clearly is to you. So maybe I'm wrong here. But it seems to me that you're just about the only one who cares about this balance, who is trying to equate one type of story with another. (Actually, I think a lot of authors would be insulted by an attempt to judge the relative value or weight of one of their stories.)

It seems to me that you're so stuck on your point (which I understand is a critical one to you) that you've missed the fact that it's not a point that's really relevant to the rest of us. We're not concerned with the balance. We don't care if one kind of story is "equal" to another. We simply don't think in those terms.

You've gone to all this trouble to tell us that TOGOM isn't the same as a Lois deathfic, but you've missed the key thing... We know that. It's just not a distinction that concerns us.

Paul

No one has said that a TOGOM story is exactly the same thing as a Lois deathfic. However, it has been suggested several times that the surplus of Lois deathfics compared with Clark deathfics may be there because Clark's "death" (and Lois's grief) has already been explored in all the TOGOMs posted here. Therefore, there may be a need for the opposite side of the coin, i.e. there may be a need for stories about Clark's grief over Lois's death, never mind that these stories deal with Lois's actual death. In spite of the fact that TOGOMs and Lois deathfics end so differently, it has been argued that the Lois deathfics could still be seen as companion pieces to the TOGOMs. The first one who suggested this was Wendy. In the latest deathfic discussion before this, it was brought up like this:

And Sara, the reason why I killed all those girls in the first version of my little fic was precisely because I wanted to say that if the Lois deathfics can be compared with the TOGOMs, then the death of a woman can be compared with the survival of a man.

Paul, I have a suggestion. Why not create a deathfic folder, just like there is an nfic folder? I promise I won't even go near it. In fact, you administrators could deny me access to it!

Ann

Sorry, but you seem to have missed my point entirely.

That's not the way I see that conversation. What I recall is that you raised the question of why there were more Lois deathfics than Clark deathfics, and one of the answers you got was that TOGOM is a way for the author to explore that theme.

Again, not saying that TOGOM = Deathfic. Not saying that there's any comparative value. And explicitly not saying that authors are writing to fill a void or maintain some kind of balance.

There is no "need" for more stories of Type A. There is no comparison that stories of Type A are better than stories of Type B, or that there must be at least n% of Type A stories in relation to Type B stories. That entire approach is completely alien to me, and, I expect, to a good number of authors here.

Saying that TOGOM serves the function and allows the exploration of the theme means exactly that. You can use that existing set-up to explore the theme. It doesn't mean that TOGOM stories need to balance other stories, or that other stories need to be written to balance out TOGOM stories or anything of the sort.

And, if that's what people are doing, then why has no one mentioned the one character who (I believe) has died the most? Lex Luthor. (Only the good die young, but only the evil die often...)

Nfic is a special case. Those stories are segregated for being over the PG-13 limit of the general boards.

The problems with a separate deathfic folder:

1. It would mean mandatory labeling of fics. While labels are encouraged in certain cases, the right of the author to forgo those labels is also important. Whether it's because doing so would spoil the story, because the author objects to labels on principle (understandable, since most of us don't like to be labeled ourselves), or for whatever other reason.

2. If we did it for deathfic, we'd have to do it for every type of story. Which would cause clutter and confusion. And mess things up when a story combined multiple genres.

3. We can't always agree on what constitutes a deathfic. Sometimes, it's obvious. Sometimes... not so much. Does TOGOM count, for example?

4. There just aren't that many deathfics to begin with.

Again... If you don't like them, don't read them. All you have to do is ignore them. No one's forcing you to read them, even if they are lumped into the same forum with everything else.

Going a bit OT here:

Since the question of policy has been brought up a couple of times in this thread, and I know that a lot of board members are reading/commenting here, I just want to remind everyone that the boards moderator/admin team is always ready to listen to suggestions for policy changes, new ideas for the boards and even complaints if you feel there's a problem. And, you know, sometimes a quick email to the moderators might prevent a long thread where frustrations get vented all over the place

I'm certainly not suggesting that everyone should email us whenever some little thing niggles, but just bear in mind that we are out there, we don't always have time to read all threads, and we're very open to listening to comments, suggestions and concerns.

If you don't know how to contact us, mods at lcfanfic dot com will do it - or just click on any of the names that appear beside a forum name on the front page, and that mod will make sure the team gets the message.


Wendy
Boards Admin and Moderation Team

Been reading this posts (and the others) for awhile now and decided I'd stop hesitating and say something:

Ann, you said:
There's still a cultural/religious/call it what you will difference here. Some of us don't feel that way about death. My mother passed away 15 years ago. While, yes, it was a horrible moment for me in some ways (most of them selfish), I am happy for her, because I do believe in something beyond death. Had I not believed this, yes, I'd still be waking up on day #5,000-something miserable. But instead I choose to focus on the "happier" aspects of her death: she's no longer in pain, and she's with her God and I'll see her again. So to me, death is not final; nor is it an event to make me miserable every day when I awake as you suggest.

And I'll admit that in comparison to TOGOM, I felt "cheated" in DToSC because we only see a very brief view of Clark's grief, as opposed to what we see of Lois' in TOGOM.

Just my 2 cents.

Jo

So maybe he really wouldn't grieve for Lois as much as many people perhaps think that he would.

Ann

<cough> Bullsh--! <cough>

I know you view Superman as being distant from Lois because of your comics background, but the Clark on LnC:TNAOS definitely was anything but. Like Jo said, I felt cheated that we didn't get to see much of his grief either. Because I *know* he felt it.

Here, here!!! *Our* Clark was so full of emotion, so full of feeling. Lois hurt him quite frequently by things she said and did... he often pouted... he was torn apart when they sentenced her to death in the 4th season.

No... Clark didn't show his feelings "on the show" when she supposedly died, because he was in his 'Superman' guise and 'Superman' did not show feelings... not like that. They didn't show us Clark - they didn't take us back to his apartment and let us see him cry.

We got cheated.

-- DJ <who will always ardently defend her emotional Superman :p >

I wasn't going to post anything on this either, but I had to stick my nose in and say that I completely and totally agree with Sue and DJ. The Clark that we all know and love from the series was a very emotional character. He loved deeply, and I know that he would grieve deeply if anything ever happened to anyone he cared about--especially to Lois. Even Mayson's death upset him, and he wasn't in love with her.

Totally straying off topic...

OMG, did we ever get cheated! This was why, during and after watching Superman Returns, I squeed endlessly when he cried! Ask Brucie just how long I went on about it - we saw it together. Man, if only we could have gotten some tears on the show. *sigh* (Hmm... maybe *that's* why we like showing Clark's grief so much more than Lois's...)

Btw, love the new icon, DJ!

Sara (who might need to watch the end of SR again just for that moment )

As many have stated, this thread, as many emotion-filled posts as there are, is still somewhat of a shining example of how deeply we can respect each other and debate with dignity.

A suggestion for Ann, if I may make it. If you aren't sure about a fic, and have any suspicions that it may be a deathfic, I would PM the author requesting confirmation one way or the other.

I choose not to get involved in this discussion because I would likely ending up saying something which seemed innocuous to me but could hurt someone. I just don't recognize those things very well.