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#156830 10/12/07 09:33 AM
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I probably shouldn't post this, but I couldn't resist.

There once was a woman. She had two children, a son and a daughter.

One day she was told that her son was dead, and she grieved for him, because he was dead. And she was told that her daughter was dead, and she grieved for her, because she was dead.

Then her son came back home, for he was alive. And a man carried the body of her daughter back home, for she was dead.

The woman buried her daughter. She watched her son grow up. She grieved for her daughter, because she was dead. And she grieved for her son, because she had believed him to be dead. She grieved for them both equally.

Her son got married. He had two children, a son and a daughter, and so the woman got two grandchildren, a grandson and a granddaughter.

One day the woman was told that her grandchildren were dead. She grieved for her grandson, because he was dead. And she grieved for her granddaughter, because she was dead.

Then the woman's son came back to his mother's house. Her grandson walked beside him, because he was alive. But the son carried the body of the woman's granddaughter, because the granddaughter was dead.

The woman and her son buried the granddaughter. The woman watched her grandson grow up. She grieved for her granddaughter, because she was dead. She grieved for her grandson, because she had believed him to be dead. She grieved for them both equally.

Her grandson got married. He had two children, a son and a daughter, and so the woman got two great-grandchildren, a great-grandson and a great-granddaughter.

One day the woman was told that her great-grandchildren were dead. She grieved for her great-grandson, because he was dead. She grieved for her great-granddaughter, because she was dead.

Then the woman's grandson came back to his grandmother's house. The great-grandson walked beside him, because he was alive. But the grandson carried the body of the woman's great-granddaughter, because the great-granddaughter was dead.

The woman and her grandson buried the great-granddaughter. And the woman grieved. She grieved for her daughter, because she was dead, and she grieved for her son, because she had believed him to be dead. She grieved for her granddaughter, because she was dead, and she grieved for her grandson, because she had believed him to be dead. She grieved for her great-granddaughter, because she was dead, and she grieved for her great-grandson, because she had believed him to be dead.

She thought about her children, her grandchildren and her great-grandchildren.

Her son was an old man.

[Linked Image]

Her daughter had been disintegrating in the churchyard for a long, long time.

[Linked Image]

Her grandson was a young man.

[Linked Image]

Her granddaughter had been disintegrating in the churchyard for a long time.

[Linked Image]

Her great-grandson was a young boy.

[img]http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/7230...F8CB2C360A55B18DDE69F268284831B75F48EF45[/img]

Her great-granddaughter had just recently been put in her grave in the churchyard.

[Linked Image]

The woman thought about her children, her grandchildren and her great-grandchildren, and she grieved for them all equally.

Because TOGOMs are the same as Lois deathfics.

#156831 10/12/07 09:40 AM
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I'm completely lost.

I suppose I should read this folder more often, lol.


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#156832 10/12/07 09:53 AM
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I'm not entirely sure I get your point. Unless it's that this woman has the worst luck ever with female descendants and is surrounded by people who seem to enjoy jumping the gun on pronouncing someone dead before they've seen the body and checked for a pulse.


Lois: You know, I have a funny feeling that you didn't tell me your biggest secret.

Clark: Well, just to put your little mind at ease, Lois, you're right.
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#156833 10/12/07 10:08 AM
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rotflol Lol! That woman was lucky she didn't have a brother! devil


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#156834 10/12/07 10:34 AM
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Lol! That woman was lucky she didn't have a brother!
Always living up to your reputation, Evilena. devil

See ya,
AnnaBtG. laugh


What we've got here is failure to communicate...
#156835 10/12/07 02:58 PM
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Because TOGOMs are the same as Lois deathfics.
That's right. Stories which tell of the death of a beloved fictional character are not always appreciated by the masses. Stories which describe the pain and loss like that which this old woman went through are often difficult to read, because death is not a friend but is an enemy. Not evryone likes this class of story, and not everyone wants to read this type of story. After all, the death rate for human beings is 100%, and why would we want to be reminded of that on a constant basis?

But it seems to me that the old woman grieved for the living as much as she did for the dead. Why, I wonder, did she feel pain for those who still lived? They weren't dead. They were alive. Maybe she was selfish and self-centered and only cared about her own feelings. Maybe she didn't give a flip about the feelings of the other people around her who loved those over whom she grieved but who still lived. Maybe she was so caught up in her own pain that she failed to understand that life goes on whether we want it to or not. Maybe she just didn't want to lose anyone else close to her.

And maybe she didn't understand that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.


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#156836 10/12/07 06:24 PM
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Sorry.

Let me do this a little differently.

Just very recently, a lovely deathfic was posted on these boards, where the dead person was not Lois. Suffice it to say that the dead person was male.

Now let's imagine the story differently. The woman in the story does not have a son and a daughter, but she has two sons. She is told that both are dead, and she grieves for both of them. Then she finds out that one is alive, but she continues to grieve for him as much as she grieves for his dead brother. She grieves for her living son as though he was dead like his brother, although he clearly isn't.

The woman buries her dead son and watches the other one grow up. Her surviving son has two sons, so she has two grandsons. She is told that both her grandsons have died, and she grieves for both of them. Then she finds out that one of her grandsons is alive, but she continues to grieve for him as though he was dead like his brother, although he clearly isn't.

The woman buries her dead grandson and watches the other one grow up. Her surviving grandson has two sons, so she has two great-grandsons. She is told that both her great-grandsons are dead, and she grieves for both of them. Then she finds out that one of her great-grandsons is alive, but she continues to grieve for him as though he was dead like his brother, although he clearly isn't.

Conclusions: TOGOMs are the same as any other deathfics.

Okay, this was probably not a lot less cryptic. As probably all of you know, TOGOMs are stories where Lois watches Clark Kent being shot, and because she doesn't know that he is Superman, she believes that he is dead. Therefore she grieves for his as though he was dead. Later she finds out that he is alive, however, and she is overjoyed.

Deathfics, any deathfics, are of course stories where a key character in LnC dies and remains dead.

When I have complained that there are many more Lois deathfics posted on these boards than Clark deathfics, I have several times been told that it is not really necessary to write any more Clark deathfics, because the topic of Clark's death has been thoroughly explored in the TOGOM stories. To this I have always replied that a TOGOM story is not the same thing as a deathfic. If the person who was believed to be dead turns out to be alive and well, then the story isn't a deathfic but something else. And because of that it isn't at all fair to compare a TOGOM story, where Clark is believed to be dead but is always alive, with a Lois deathfic, where Lois always remains dead. In other words, my point is simply this: A TOGOM story is not the same thing as a deathfic, and a woman who grieves for her living child as much as she grieves for her dead child has simply got her priorities wrong. She has concluded that if she once believed that both of her children were dead, then she must continue to grieve for both of them equally as if both of them were dead, even though one of them is clearly alive and well.

My entire post was a refutation of the idea that TOGOMs explore Lois's grief and Clark's death just as well as Lois deathfics explore Clark's grief and Lois's death. Because that is just not true.

On the other hand, grief is an irrational thing. Who can tell his or her heart what it mustn't grieve for? And besides, the woman in my little fic had reason to grieve for her living son, her living grandson and her living great-grandson. After all, all of her three surviving descendants had seen a sibling die, and two of them had seen one of his own children die. Isn't that reason enough for the woman to grieve for her surviving son, for her surviving grandson and for her surviving great-grandson? It most certainly is. But I'm still saying that the woman was wrong to grieve for the living and for the dead equally. Their fates were definitely not the same, and you shouldn't grieve them equally.

Finally, Elena, that was a most perfect comment! Good thing for this woman that she didn't have a brother! Ah, but if she did, she would have been spared all this grieving, wouldn't she?

Ann

#156837 10/12/07 06:38 PM
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A TOGOM story is not the same thing as a deathfic, and a woman who grieves for her living child as much as she grieves for her dead child has simply got her priorities wrong.
I think there's a huge hole in your theory.

Lois stopped grieving after she discovered that Clark was still alive. The fact that he was still alive didn't lessen her grief at all when she *didn't know* that. When she found out he was still alive, she was overjoyed. She didn't spend the rest of the series (or her life) mourning him because she once thought he was dead.

You're correct in saying that a TOGOM story is not the same thing as a deathfic. One explores grief that ends up having a happy ending, because Clark is not dead. Just like 'Don't Tug On Superman's Cape' has a happy ending because LOIS is not dead (as Clark had briefly thought). To the best of my recollection, he didn't spend the rest of the series mourning her almost-death either.

In a true deathfic, yes, the character is dead. But I'd rather think that those stories are written as a way of showing how we cope with such a huge loss, not as a way to wallow in the grief.


Lois: You know, I have a funny feeling that you didn't tell me your biggest secret.

Clark: Well, just to put your little mind at ease, Lois, you're right.
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#156838 10/12/07 08:41 PM
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Finally, Elena, that was a most perfect comment! Good thing for this woman that she didn't have a brother! Ah, but if she did, she would have been spared all this grieving, wouldn't she?
She and us both. :rolleyes:


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#156839 10/12/07 08:56 PM
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I think there's a huge hole in your theory.

Lois stopped grieving after she discovered that Clark was still alive. The fact that he was still alive didn't lessen her grief at all when she *didn't know* that. When she found out he was still alive, she was overjoyed. She didn't spend the rest of the series (or her life) mourning him because she once thought he was dead.
Which is exactly the point I was trying to make here. So... TOGOMs and Lois deathfics are not the same. Which was my point.

Ann

#156840 10/12/07 09:05 PM
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Just very recently, a lovely deathfic was posted on these boards, where the dead person was not Lois. Suffice it to say that the dead person was male.
I can only assume you mean my story, Ann. And I really just don't see what it has to do with your whole post/argument/rant/whatever. You bemoan Lois deathfics and death of women fics, right? This was neither. Why on earth is it being used to make (or even introduce) your point? (Also, I'd hesitate to actually label it a "deathfic".) I'm a bit... disappointed? insulted? that my story brought up this whole subject again. Can't a story be just a story? I realize you're not directly attacking my story - you liked it, even - but the mere fact that it's included (and that I suspect it started this whole thread) feels like an attack.

Regardless if it was my story or not (you're so careful not to mention names), bringing up someone else's story in your convoluted arguments is hurtful and insensitive. Flog your dead horse all you want, but please leave others out of it - no matter how indirectly you include them.

Sara (who's not here to argue the subject at all - just here to "defend" my story)


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#156841 10/12/07 09:13 PM
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This topic again?!

dizzy

I'm starting to get bald spots. :p

Rach


Me: what are you looking at *Snatches pic* OMFG! Dean smeared in peanut butter?! WTF?!
Sara: LMAO it was chocolate!! smeared in chocolate!
Me: LMFAO chocolate smeared in chocolate!
Sara: LMAO the *chocolate* isn't smeared in chocolate!
Me: that's the way i read it. was trying to picture chocolate smeared in chocolate
Sara: ROTFLMAO
#156842 10/12/07 10:48 PM
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Sara, I'm so sorry! I didn't mean to criticize your story in any way. Please believe that I didn't.

The thing is that I haven't been able to fully let go of the previous Lois deathfic debate (which I initiated, I know), and in that thread, it was again suggested that Lois deathfics are pretty much the same as the TOGOMs. I just felt so helpless when people didn't seem able to understand my objections to that suggestion.

So, yesterday, the story of the woman and her children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren just popped into my head, and I felt that this, finally, explains why TOGOMS are not the same as Lois deathfics. I just felt that if this little story doesn't prove my point, nothing will.

But please, please Sara, believe me when I say that this thread has nothing to do with your story. The reason why I brought up your lovely little vignette at all is that I just needed to say, in all fairness, that the latest deathfic posted on these boards was not a Lois deathfic. (But I can't imagine that anyone would ever compare your fic with a TOGOM story.)

Ann

#156843 10/12/07 10:54 PM
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Then she finds out that one of her great-grandsons is alive, but she continues to grieve for him as though he was dead like his brother, although he clearly isn't.

Conclusions: TOGOMs are the same as any other deathfics.
Alternate conclusion: This woman has a mental defect. She is treating her living descendants as if they are dead. That's a horrible way to behave towards anyone, and she should be made aware that her behavior is not just abnormal, it's abberant.

Life is for living, not simply an opportunity to bemoan one's actual or potential losses. She lost a son? It's a terrible thing to happen to any parent, and since it happened to me I feel a bit irked by this example because parents who love their children don't mourn their deaths before they die. They mourn their bad choices, their mistakes, their own griefs and pains, even their long and eventually fatal illnesses, but a parent who finds out that the child he or she thought was dead but is still alive rejoices. The parent does not continue to grieve over a live child. Therefore your parable is invalid.

Ann, please stop trying to be the arbiter of everyone else's tastes. There are some stories you like that I don't, but that's okay because we're different people with different likes and dislikes. If you have actual evidence of some bias towards Lois dying in various horrible ways just because the authors like to kill and torture her, then present it.

But a morbid tale like this one with a mentally unbalanced central character doesn't bolster your case, and in fact it diminishes your case. If someone has to manufacture scenarios to support his or her point of view, that someone's point of view isn't based on reality. And I'd say that about anyone who tries to present any opinion as fact without supporting evidence.

Please don't take this as a flame. I'm only pointing out the illogic of your stated position. And like some others, I'm a bit tired of Alice and her deathfic flamingos by now.


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#156844 10/12/07 11:41 PM
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Please , can we be as tolerant of people's right to post their thoughts as we are of people posting different types of fics?

Explaining *why* we disagree is interesting, helps us understand others and maybe even ourselves. But let's not cross into personal attacks. And let's not misconstrue a person's comment as trying to dictate what others *must* think.

what was that saying attributed to Voltaire?
"I disagree with what you've said, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

[loosely quoted, I believe smile very loosely]

c.

#156845 10/12/07 11:53 PM
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If you have actual evidence of some bias towards Lois dying in various horrible ways just because the authors like to kill and torture her, then present it.
As I've read Ann's posts, I thought her objection was not to the manner in which Lois is killed, but to the fact that there are *more* Lois deathfics out there than Clark dfs. Nor do I recall Ann making the claim that authors' motivation is that they "like to kill and torture" Lois.

Although maybe that should be torture and kill? smile

Sorry about posting twice in succession - it's too early in the morning.

c.

#156846 10/13/07 12:06 AM
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Please , can we be as tolerant of people's right to post their thoughts as we are of people posting different types of fics?
I fail to see how much more tolerant we can be than we already are, Carol.

By the way, bit rich to talk about tolerance of people posting different types of fics, when anti-deathfic rants keep popping up. :rolleyes:


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#156847 10/13/07 12:34 AM
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Elena, it's the pejoratives, (like 'that's a bit rich' , 'rant', etc:) ), that are used to describe Ann's thoughts that upset me, not that people disagree with those thoughts. As soon as that type of language creeps in, the intolerance shows.

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By the way, bit rich to talk about tolerance of people posting different types of fics, when anti-deathfic rants keep popping up.
I think maybe you've misunderstood or I explained it poorly - more likely the latter. smile
What I meant by that was this:
-- We should try to apply the same standard of acceptance to fics as we should to non-fic posts. We should try to be consistent. (And I know as soon as I say "should" I'm in trouble:) )

Often, especially in longer non-fic posts, a person puts as much thought and care into what they write as they do into writing a short vignette. So their feelings are as much on the line as fic writers. Some people chose fiction to express their ideas and feelings, some non-fic posts, some music vidoes.

So I repeat my plea for tolerance.

c.

#156848 10/13/07 12:35 AM
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First off... most writers I know write the stories that come to them. It's not a matter of keeping some sort of cosmic balance between stories of Type A and stories of Type B or deaths of Character A and deaths of Character B.

Second... In TOGOM, Clark turns out to be alive. But the story still serves the same function. It allows the writer to explore the theme of his death. It doesn't have to be "the same" as a Lois deathfic because, again, that's not the point. And the fact that TOGOM is there, ready-made, easy to use, and serving that function means that writers inclined to explore that theme will gravitate towards using TOGOM to do it.

Third... There are a lot more points. Logical holes. Mistaken axioms. But you know what? We've been through all that. Several times. Can we take it as read that you don't like this type of story, but that most of us disagree with your reasons?

Finally... There's also a difference between posting what you like and saying things that make others feel like they can't do the same.

You have the right to post whatever stories you like, so long as they follow the forum rules. You have the right to ignore the stories that aren't to your tastes. You have the right to discuss themes and comment on stories, again as long as you follow the forum rules. (Preferably with common courtesy. For example, you can criticize someone's story, but it's better if you make it constructive criticism, and maybe even include some positive comments about other aspects of the story.)

You even have the right to endlessly rehash old arguments, if that's what you want to do. And others have the right to ignore those posts, if that's what suits them.

But when you start posting attacks, that's a different matter. Whether it's against a single story, a whole genre, or one or more individuals. And it's not that big a step from attacking a story to attacking the author(s) or making the author(s) feel as if they're under attack.

And when you make it clear that a story which even begins to touch on a certain theme will immediately result in another general attack on the genre, when you're actively trying to prevent people from posting stories of that type, when you create a hostile atmosphere which could well make authors hesitate before posting their work... Well, personally... I think that crosses the line.

Even free speech has some limits.


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#156849 10/13/07 01:06 AM
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I say this gently because I love Paul. smile

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when you're actively trying to prevent people from posting stories of that type, .
That's a serious charge - how do we ever know what a person's motivation is? It could, of course be that explanation, but it could, instead, be to raise a question, to discuss and explore the topic with others, or it could be as simple as just wanting to express our own thoughts and feelings or....

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when you create a hostile atmosphere which could well make authors hesitate before posting their work... Well, personally... I think that crosses the line.
I would agree with that - I've been told by a three or four people in private e-mails that they will not ever read any story I write. That's been pretty daunting. I posted a story in the fanfic folder a couple of weeks ago and i can tell you I was really scared. As well, I've been dissuaded from posting fdk in the fic thread. So I understand what you mean, here, Paul.

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Can we take it as read that you don't like this type of story, but that most of us disagree with your reasons?
That's a bit of a dismissal, perhaps. Strongly put too. frown

I'm less certain about forbidding a discussion on genres. That would mean no discussion of kid-fics, or NK fics, etc.

Free speech has limits, although where those limits should be is hugely debatable. smile All I'm suggesting is we try to be careful in the use of our language as we comment on other people's ideas, as careful as we are when we comment on fics or videos.

Btw, why have there been so few explorations of "Don't Tug" compared to TGOM, I wonder?

One of the few deathfcis I actually liked btw, is Paul's "The Cape of Good Hope". smile
(quickly adding that this doesn't mean that everyone ought to like only a few deathfcis and/or that one of them should be Paul's laugh

c.

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