Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Related Ultimate Lois Deathfic

gosh no - just use a bit of imagination and it's very, very easy to kill off Superman. So it makes sense to ask why it has been so very rarely done in fanfic here.

Although you guys do have a point, of course about Lois being more vulnerable.

However, I don't think it's just a one variable explantion - that we female readers like to fanatasize about how our lover will mourn us (and I want to add here that is not my fantasy when it comes to Clark Kent but i digress into a bit of an nfic moment there )

Seriously though, I think there are several variables at work here - the ones that Ann has suggested are surely as significant as the necrofantasy thing.

Me - I hate to see Lois Lane reduced to a plot device to show us how beautifully Clark can suffer. She's worth more than that. Isn't she?

So be honest about death, people - show us the horror, the pain, the physical and emotional agony of dyeing. Please don't romanticise it, pretty it up by focusing on the romantic suffering of the man. True it's about the mourners, but most of all it's about the dead.

I have several nfics to my credit but not a single deathfic. And yet, even though my imagination doesn't wander into directions that include Clark's grief, I'm not going to get upset when someone else writes about it. I know there are people on the boards who have no interest in reading nfic, but I'm grateful that they don't start a thread questioning my morals when I post one. No offense, Ann! I said that with a heavy dose of irony, I promise. Maybe we need to start a folder solely for deathfics and WHAMs?

I am sitting here at my desk laughing. I think if someone started one, I think I'd have to say that sadly, I don't think many of us have as good as sex as Lois and Clark do. I certainly don't do anything in the conference room at my newspaper other than go to meetings, nor do I do anything in my kitchen but cook (coughs at Sue) or anything that involves the ceiling.

Sue, I think you've maybe attributed my post to Ann, but I'm not sure.

Anyway, my point about nfic was that my fantasies about Clark Kent did not, by a long shot include fantasies about his mourning a dead Lois Lane (the theory advanced being that's why there's so much more Lois deathfic out there). I was trying to say that's the last thing I fantasize about - that visions of the more active nfic variety are , well - better. I'm not sure at all why you felt your morals were being questioned.

very puzzled

As someone who has read nfic (and beta'd it), I'm not about to question the morality of it. keep wriiing the stuff.

Regardless, that nfic crack was not the point of that post but was an aside. My point was that there are several factors at work in explaining why deathfic here takes the shape it does. We can't be reducing such a complex issue to one factor. Nor should we dismiss the diverse suggestions that have been presented.

c.

Oh, Carol, I was directing my remarks more in general that at anyone in particular. In fact, I'm just being flippant and most of what I say should be ignored as such. I knew it was a throwaway remark that you had made, that's why mine was equally tongue-in-cheek. However... I said "morals" because that would be the most likely objection to nfic. But every time someone writes a deathfic, it seems like we're guaranteed a new debate on the subject, which can only make the authors feel attacked and as if their judgment and imagination were being questioned.

it's such a serious subject - more than any other on the boards. More than any other it has the power to distress and upset. And it's so complex. Hopefully, we can accept the validity of all the points of view that have been expressed here and perhaps even accept that there may be more than one factor explaining why deathfic on these mbs takes the shape it does.

c.

Very well put. And unlike the people who initiate commentary in Off Topic and Fanfic Related, I think most didn't write to begin controversy and debate. Otherwise you wouldn't have so many authors being hurt over how their right to pen something has been questioned (be it implicit or not) through these deathfic debates.

Posting a story is hard. Putting yourself out there is hard. I think this too easy to forget. Just because it isn't said outright in the thread, doesn't mean that the writer won't feel maligned when their work is lumped with something that is presented as morally reprehensible. Especially if they worked hard and really invested themselves in the work.

To me its the equivalent of knowing your coworker is gay and telling them outright you disagree with gay lifestyles and that you believe all gay people are going to hell.

Sure you have a right to voice your opinion (just as they have a right to be gay), BUT the important thing to consider is--would that lead to a positive environment?

As usual it is the writer's freedom that concerns me. My main reason for hangin' out here is to read fic, after all. And if WHAMs don't protect writers from discouraging accusations (be they implicit or explicit) it's beginning to look like nothing will.

alcyone

Hmmm, but that's you're *opinion*, Carol -- the fact that that particular subject is more serious than any other on the boards.

Let me explain...

For example... May I point out that to people who have extremely sensitive consciences and religious beliefs and convictions -- like some of the people on this board (I'm not naming any names) -- the subject of nfic could be quite offensive.

Now, that having been said... it is true that we keep it separated. However, we don't keep it separated solely for the reason of "sparing their feelings" but because it is inappropriate for young readers.

Perhaps a better challenge here for you to make would be that deathfics are inappropriate for young readers? Because really they are the only ones who are so emotionally capable of being scarred that they should be protected from certain genres. The rest of us are all "big boys and girls" and can make educated decisions on what we will, or will not, read.

There are several stories even on the PG side that push the limit as far as PG-13 can go - *ahem* I would know. And I know that even those stories slightly offend certain people on the boards. But... we don't see them starting threads to complain about the "moral injustice" that we are foisting upon our heroes. Because, let's face it, our heroes, Lois & Clark, were pretty chaste in the show: Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman. Sure, they were tempted a few times not to be chaste, but in the end, they waited until after they were married to make love to one another.

So please don't think that your views on deathfics are any more strong or important than others views on nfic or PG fic that blurs the line of morality. Or anything else, for that matter. "Importance" depends very much on someone's "own point of view".

There can be many different things that a person might take offense to in the stories that are available to read. My point is... that you don't see anyone else starting threads to complain about that particular genre.

If there is one thing that I would like to get across in what I've said <and then I'll completely shut up> it's that there are many things that someone could take offense at, depending on their own personal beliefs and opinions. But we don't see any other threads being started to address those other topics -- people just realize that it is the author's right to write about those topics and they don't read them and just leave them alone and life moves on. This is the only genre that continues to be beaten like the dead horse that it is.

-- DJ <who again apologizes for not being able to keep her lip buttoned and her opinions to herself>

Wow, talk about different cultures. I grew up in Naval housing in San Diego, California, USA during the Vietnam war.

I was a teen ager before I ever learned about funerals that did NOT have a flag on the casket.

I did not know ANY, ANY women who had died until I was an adult.

But during my youth, I knew hundreds of men who had died. Wayne's father, Lee's father, Walter's father, Becky's father, and on and on. As I got older it was also friend's brothers who died. The kids who as teenagers helped us in bowling and baseball, that we tried to tag around after.

These were all people I could put a face to, not people I only heard about but people I had MET, talked with, been yelled at by and all those other things that make a person real, not mere statistics

I don't know what you read besides Lois & Clark but I think perhaps the selection is skewed in some way. I never saw "Love Story" and was not fond of the book or it's sequel (required reading for a class in my youth).

I also managed to give Titanic a pass, being married for decades does get you out of some movies, there in the guy dies. But he dies in the approved manner, dying to save others.

Perhaps the problem is you read books aimed at women. Women who often times in our culture are made to feel like interchangeable parts.

We live in a culture where men get bored with old wife and trade her in for new wife because new wife is younger, sexier and much more eager to please the man.

It has been so since bible times;

Malachi 2:14) “. . .On this account, that Jehovah himself has borne witness between you and the wife of your youth, with whom you yourself have dealt treacherously. . .”

Proverbs 5:18) “. . .rejoice with the wife of your youth,”

Many of these stories are likely an attempt to explore just how important the wife is to the husband. To prove to their, largely female, readers that she wasn't some replaceable part off an assembly line.

There are entire genre where the men die "good deaths' and the women only die if the man screws up.

DJ wrote:

Wow, DJ! Why do you say I think that? I wonder if maybe you could please flag the quote that gave you that impression? - I'd like to correct it because it would have been (and is) the furthest thing from my mind. No one who puts an opinion out there is assuming that the opinion will be accepted by everyone

As I understand it, Ann's concern with deathfic, as it manifests itself on these boards, is not the subject matter per se but the pattern it takes: mostly it is the female protagonist that is killed. That's a valid question, one with broader social and cultural implications. The purpose of my second post was to defend the right to explore a topic here on these boards and to present diverse points of views on it.
(my first post was a brief response to Sue's comment about how she reads and the importance of her religion in her life which is proably a tad OT - I mean the post, not Sue's religion )

Now, however, I'm concerned that we're moving towards a position on these mbs that tolerates most types of fiction being posted but only a narrow range of 'non-fiction' ideas being discussed and presented.

I'm not quite sure how the morality of nfic got into this thread, but it seems to have. A few years ago there was quite a heated and prolonged debate on these boards about the morality of nfic . I believe the nfic folder was created as a way to calm the waters at that time (I'm not sure, though, on the time sequence here)

Ah, but we have seen them - there have been threads discussing kiddie-fic (with some particularly contemptuous opinions expressed of that genre), alt-stories and crossovers in particular, and of course the Clark-moves-on fic (this one usually usually entangeld with the dead-Lois fic)
As well we've got into discussions of characterization - personality and character traits. Those too have tended to become theme-related.
Plus there have been many, many disdainful comments about stories with lots of A-plot content that have left writers of those types of fics feeling not great. I could continue with the list.

But it's death that is the most powerful theme, the most emotionally involving, the most devastating. I'm guessing that you would disagree with me on this point, though. At any rate I think that's why it keeps coming up. Then, combine that theme with the pattern we usually see in deathfics here. (now I'm repeating myself - oops

Could be worse - could be taxes. (sorry for that old, old joke))

But it really would be nearly as easy to write Clark death-fics as it would Lois dfs. (imo, easier) So, logically, we should expect to see that difference roughly approximated in the stories we see here. But we don't, so surely it's valid to ask why not?

Each time, we discuss this I learn something new - this time, for me, a few things. But in particular Hasini's idea that links the fact that most of us are women and many of us may like to fantasize about how a lover would react to our deaths.

As I've said before I haven't read the story that triggered this discussion - I had seen the story posted and was going to read it, had read the author's intro - noted it was ambiguous but the title sounded promising so was all set to settle in. Got distracted by some mundane task (can't even remember now what!) . It wasn't until the next day that I became aware of the actual content of the story. Any comments I've made about the genre have nothing to do with that specific story as I hope I made clear earlier.

At any rate I do hope that these mbs will be as open to non-fiction L & C discussions as they are to fiction. A writer who posts a lengthy opinion is putting herself out there as much as is a writer of fiction - to continue with Alcyone's comment.
And to mix in Dj's comment - if discussing this genre is a "dead horse" zone, then isn't writing the genre too?
(playing Devil's Advocate there but had to pick up on the 'dead horse' insult. Absolutely couldn't ignore it )

Ugh. I really promised myself I wasn't going to come back. But, since you specifically asked me, Carol. I at least have to come back to answer your request:

By your own comments here, Carol. I quoted them in my post to illustrate the point I was trying to make:

That is what you said - plain as day. Those words say that you believe it is more serious than any other topic on the boards. I disagree. Just because it is the "dead horse" that keeps being beat... does not mean that it is the most serious. It just means that other people have stated their opinions and have fought their own battles on any other topics... and then have left them alone.

You say that kiddiefic and too heavy a-plot stories have been discussed. Well, I'll admit, I'm not all that active on a lot of discussions here. But I can say that in the time I've been here (since early in 2006) the only topic I've seen debated is "deathfic". I haven't seen anyone else debating any other genres <shrug - sorry, I just haven't seen it> And I personally don't believe the reason is that no one feels strongly about any other topics. I feel that the reason is because most people feel that "once" or maybe "twice" is enough to bring up a topic and then leave it alone. Not to continue bringing up a topic again and again throughout the course of a year. All angles have been explored, IMHO. All continuing to repost and rehash can do is emphasize that you believe everyone should feel as you do.

Now, on the topic of "beating a dead horse". Yes, you are entitled to feel that writing more Lois deathfic is "beating a dead horse", but then really... if that's the way you (or anyone else feels) than this board has outlived its usefulness by that definition. Because that's what ALL of our stories do. They are all just rewrites of the same basic things. 95% of the stories posted are about Lois & Clark romance. Stories of how they get together, fall in love -- so isn't that really "beating a dead horse"? We've seen them fall in love over and over again and in a variety of different ways. The difference is, that most people are not going to complain about reading yet another revelation story, or yet another story about how they could possibly fall in love.

And that same principle can be applied to just about any type of story. I'm currently writing another HoL rewrite. There have been tons of them done - so am I not "beating a dead horse"? What about the TOGOM rewrites - that could be beating a dead horse.

And I'm not saying that "Ann's" beating a dead horse isn't her "right". Obviously it is, or the admins would just shut the thread down. I'm just saying that she's one of the few people who "choose" to do that. Other people have strong views on many other subjects, but they don't continue to try to force people to see their POV. You say they may have in the past, and they may. But that's the point... it's in the past... not every 6 months.

And just so everyone understands. I love Ann to pieces. Her fdk is always so insightful thoughtful and inspiring.

But...

I have been at the receiving end before of some of her harshest criticism and let me tell you, it doesn't feel good. It hurts, to put it bluntly. And you know what? When I received it, I didn't even deserve it. Because I hadn't even written a deathfic. I had only explored in an in-between scene, something that had happened in the series. But Ann hadn't watched the series, so she didn't realize that. But still I got chastised and put through the wringer for what I had written. And that's just not fair, not to me, and not to any other writer. And that's the only reason I allowed myself to be goaded into this discussion... like someone else said... It can be extremely difficult to write something and put it out there for people to read. It makes it even worse if you're crucified for what you write. Makes you not want to write anything else and just slink off into a dark hole somewhere (especially depending on how sensitive you are) and I just don't think that's a healthy thing for these boards. Because these boards are about writing... about fanfiction.

But please, don't feel like I'm trying to persecute anyone here, Carol. I love you and Ann to pieces. I've gotten a lot of private fdk from you in emails, and I always take what you say to heart (even if it is constructive criticism - and I really appreciate those) and Ann is a doll for all the detailed fdk that she leaves for people. I just wish people could see how discouraging it can be for people's creative juices to be disparaged repeatedly, that's all. And I felt I could give an objective opinion because I rarely read deathfic and I even more rarely write it (the two "deathfics" I have written, I don't classify as deathfic. A - because Lois didn't stay dead; or B - because I was working off something from the show as simply an inbetween scene). So the opinion I was expressing wasn't defensive - trying to take up for something I wrote.

Anyway, I really am done now. If anyone wants to ask me to clarify anything that I've written further, feel free to PM me, but I won't post anything further in this thread... and if any such thread gets brought up yet again, I'll make sure to try to keep my own opinions to myself in that thread as well. But thanks for hearing me out.

-- DJ

just to clarify:

Yes, that's true - *I* do, but that doesn't automatically mean that I think *others* ought to, too, or that I think my views are more important than those of others, which is what you said here:
I flagged this statement because I interpreted that as your saying that I think everyone ought to have the same views as I do which honestly I've never ever, said or thought. I've tried to make that clear in so many places.

At any rate, it was that that I was hoping you'd point out to me where I've said that I think my views are more important than those of others. I'm clarifying that here rather than in a PM because I'm a bit concerned about this.

I guess it all comes down to which words we decide are the most important in giving meaning.

As for all the genres of fic that have been discussed in the past - oh yeah, and they were interesting discussions. Perhaps they aren't as prevalent now because people regard those themes as less important? <shrug> (couldn't reisist, abject apology for succombing to temptation. Know I will burn in hell, etc.)

Oh, and btw, I have sent DJ lots of private feedback - constructive criticism as she says - nearly all of it has been very positive. Don't want anyway to think I've been bombarding poor DJ with evil stuff.

So true what DJ said about the redundancy of L & C fanfic, btw, but of course we must remain in denial about that. I certainly intend to (of course that doesn't mean everyone ought to be in denial....

c.

Leaving the main topic alone <g> because I said I would.

But...

That's not true... *ALL* of it has been positive. <g> And very well intended. And I appreciated every word... just as I appreciate Ann's fdk dearly, and hope that she doesn't think that my views on this subject were meant to flame her in any sense of the word. I would miss both of you dearly as readers if I offended you and you left me...

Thanks.

-- DJ

This thread is just like fanfic, Superman and soap opera villains - it just refuses to stay dead. And this time, I'm going to be the reason why. Never did do well at slouching in corners.

Observing all the posts so far, I have to say that the topic at issue and the topic that ended up being discussed were two different things. Ann opened this thread intending to analyze whether the prevalence of Lois deathfic had sinister misogynistic undertones to it. A lot of people thought this was yet another attack on deathfic writers. Though it appeared that way, it was established that it really wasn't. However, several people continued to take offence at this perceived attack and THEN it became a dead horse topic - do deathfic writers deserve the right to post their views unmolested? I am going to channel my inner teeny-bopper and condense about ten posts into the analytical and incisive summary of: "Like, duh! you guys!" :rolleyes: Post-mortem aquinine creatures have rarely received such attention as they have in this thread, I'm sure.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is, Ann brought up a very valid and interesting angle in the exploration of deathfic. Discussing the kinds of angles that deathfic should explore is no more a 'dead horse' than deathfic itself is. (I shall always wonder how in the world that came up. Ah, I see it. Carol made an ill-advised similie. Shall not even go there.)

So if there are no actual dead animals in the vicinity, what's that smell coming from? It is coming from that non-existent issue which I shall refer to henceforth as the "like, duh!" issue. *points up*

Anyway, what I mean to say is this: people, please don't automatically assume the usual suspects are about to begin a bashing session the moment somebody mentions deathfic in a disgruntled sort of way. The members of these boards have way more maturity and tact than that. (Most of them, at least. I think. I believe. I hope. ) So give them some credit. Discussion of deathfic is not a...I would say 'dead horse' again, but I feel like I am severely maligning the aquinine family at this point. Suffice to say that we should be able to explore a myriad of different themes on it, as long as everybody plays nice. A few people didn't do so in this thread.

And Ann, people would have been a lot more open to your topic if you hadn't started out on a rather negative and judgemental note. I love your posts, as they are always so thought-provoking, but that legendary zeal that makes you so dear to us can also unwittingly cause hurt and discord. And I think people should choose their similies a little more diplomatically.

Now if someone hands me a ladder, I can get off this goshdarn soap-box. *looks down consideringly*

ETA: This thread got fifty three posts so far?! *frantically tries to think of ways to incorporate dead horses into the next fic I post.*

On the flip side, another reason for the abundance of Lois death fics that ties in with what Hasini mentioned could be that women don't kill off Clark (leaving behind a grief-stricken Lois) because we'd rather not think of our own husbands/significant others dying. Personally, writing about a grieving woman who is left behind by her husband is a disturbing thought, at least, it is to me.

As for this "dead horse" that everyone talks about, I really don't have a stand on the issue. Reading death fic doesn't really bother me anymore than people discussing it does. But when looking for reasons as to why there is a seemingly larger number of Lois death fics, this idea occurred to me, so I thought I'd throw it out there.

the kiddie-porn thing - no kidding But I did apologise for that one.

the dead-horse ain't mine though <g>

Very nice summary, Hasini. (imo, that is )

Symbolicangel, I hadn't thought about about how difficult it would be to write about the death of your spouse angle. Another piece of the puzzle.

c.

I have - and I think symbolicangel is right. I can't get past Clark's funeral to write the rest of the story.

My apologies, Carol, if you felt my lighthearted remarks were out-of-line. I deal with dark subjects by using dark humor. It's my go-to coping mechanism. I realize belatedly that we're not all wired the same way. Sorry.

Just popping in to say... Ann has anyone explained to you about the Brutal Youth episode as well? I know you haven't seen the show Ann so this may be something you didn't know. Forgive me if I am pointing out something you were aware of.

In the show it is basically stated that Dr. Klein believes that "Superman" is going to live for a very long time.

From the script:

LOIS: Superman won't... age?

DR. KLEIN: Oh, of course he will. He's not immortal.

LOIS: So he _will_ age... but just not like you or... me?

DR. KLEIN: It's all speculation, you understand, but I think it's safe to say that long after you and I are dead and gone, Superman will still be in his prime, fighting for truth, justice --

LOIS: -- and The American Way

A lot of the fics explore this. Obviously even if Clark keeps Lois safe until she is 100 she is going to die from old age if nothing else. You see a lot of fics exploring this and seeing him cope with it. It is obviously something he and Lois have spoken about and worked out together... but still such a hard burden to bear to know that unless something happens to you that you will have a much higher chance of outliving your spouse... and then to actually see it.

It isn't an easy subject to explore but as with every aspect of the show it something that the authors here are going to do. I think the reason Lois may be shown as the one dying so much is just because the show set it up that way. Not to say I don't think we should also explore it the other way around. How will Lois react when she expected to be the one to go first? Only to lose him and not be prepared for that?

It is an interesting concept indeed. I know for you it isn't something you desire to read... but for a few of us it is somewhat comforting and healing to read a story where the characters are trying to work through the death of a love one and to see them come out of it okay. It's somewhat like a light at the end of the tunnel for some of us. To know that if our favorite characters can live through it... we can too. To know that even our favorite heroes (and by this I mean Lois as well) have cracks as well and not everything is perfect.

I don't but I'm rambling now... but I felt I should give you a reason why I personally read them. It isn't often that I will sit down with one... but when I do, it isn't so much as I'm doing it to get some sort of joy out of it but that I'm looking for a comrade who understands my pain.

about the Brutal Youth thing - and now this is OT i think - but at the end Clark trades away part of his life force to Jimmy and so we're left with a very open-ended scenario. Clark, may have in fact traded away so much of his life force that he could have a shorter life span than Lois.

As well, Klein's theory was just that - a hypothesis, not fact.

Tim Minnear, who wrote the script, was on line at some point wih Zoomway or it may have been LAFF , and I gather the question was put to him as to how he saw it. It's my understanding that he saw the transfer at the end as restoring the balance between Lois and Clark. But this is my recollection of what I read on those mbs about a year ago and so it would be better to check it out directly as to what he actually said.

At any rate, Clark's longevity is not carved in stone:)

Apologies for wandering a bit OT here.

And thanks, Sue:) I understand what you mean about writing that funeral.

c.

Ahh crap Carol. I had that in there... but I moved the quote around and erased that bit. and you are absolutely right. It is a very open ended. I had this bit that was supposed to be in there:

"While he does sacrifice some of his life force for Jimmy in that episode... we still don't know how much longer he is going to live than a normal human if he is going to live longer at all. But the doubt is still there."

Oops! Thanks for clearing it up Carol.