Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Related Types of love and "L & C: tNaoS"

No, more likely my fault for explaining my argument so poorly. (never like to blame things on the dog ), L. Also since I'd asked the Smallville question, I thought you were answering it, which I know now was not the case.

What I was trying to suggest, though, was that given the wide-open definition of canon that we've arrived at, that a Smallville fic wouldn't really violate any L & C canon as long as we label it as an Elseworld or Alt-fic or Early Years. Just as we have fics in which Clark can't fly or Perry is not an Elvis fan, etc which may appear to contradict canon, they don't really as long as they are slotted in the appropriate category.

As well, If a well developed argument in a story can justify any premise (as you argued in your second last post, L. ) why wouldn't that also apply to a Smallville or an SR premise whether that premise be about characterisation or about factual details from the series?

As for Lois's fish, I had to mention that point because it reminded me of the delightful fish stories on the archives. (Jana's, and Anna's) But I'm not sure I was trying to prove any argument with that particular point.

Anyway, I used to think I knew the difference between a Smallville fic or a SR fic and an L & C fic, but now, not so sure I can pinpoint the difference and so I was looking for explanations. Am pretty sure it has something to do with canon but....

Also am now very confused about why characterisation isn't also canon. If we can consider behaviour to be OoC (as L mentioned in her second to last post) then we must have some sense of 'canon charcaterisation' to reach that conclusion, otherwise we can't say something is OoC because we have no reference point. I think this perhaps underlies Karen's post (although I may be misreading Karen).

Can anyone explain?

c.

Thanks, Carol. Now, I got you. I should probably have made it clearer that I was making a general point, rather than responding to the last post in the thread.

As for the 'Smallville point' - sorry, but I ain't touching that one. <g> It's one of those things where I instinctively know what the answer is at a personal level, can recognise the differences between the shows and know why Smallville and SR fic aren't LNC fic, but explaining it logically is quite another matter.

Karen makes a good start on it though and some nice points and I'm sure that there will be others equally eloquent and intelligent - this board is frequented by FoLCs after all - who'll take a good stab at it. Hope you get your answer.

LabRat

Now that this thread has calmed down a bit, please let me inject myself once again.

After thinking for a few days about what I wrote, after reviewing some of the comments made after mine, and after reading the private messages I received, I’ve come to a definite conclusion.

Carol, I do owe you a sincere apology. I went over the top with the way I presented myself and my case and I should not have done so. I will endeavor to state my case in more measured tones in the future, and I hope that you will forgive me for my excesses. I had no intention of making you feel as if you’d been flamed, and I am truly sorry for that.

Now that I have stated the most important point, let me respond to a couple of other things. ML wrote:

Earlier, I wrote:

Before that, I wrote:

I also wrote:

And that was just in this thread.

ML, you’re an excellent writer with many wonderful stories on the archive, and I’d be surprised if these were the only ones you’ve written. I respect your opinion on these matters, and I’m a bit taken aback that you’d accuse me of not allowing someone else to hold a different opinion. Of course Carol is entitled to her opinion. Of course Carol (and anyone else) is entitled to state his or her opinion on the boards. What got the burr under my saddle was the bald statement that “X story isn’t L&C” without couching the statement as someone’s opinion and without giving any clear statement as to why it isn't L&C. And Carol is not the only one who’s made that statement, either in this thread or in other places.

If someone writes to me in a feedback folder and says, “Terry, your story ‘Intrigue On the Lusitania’ does not feel like a true L&C story to me. For one thing, it’s set in pre-World War I England. For several other things, Lois only appears in one scene and then gets killed, Lucy is a countess who is the main suspect, and Clark is only a deckhand who tosses the mooring lines from the deck to the ship. He’s not even a crew member!” Such a critique is fine with me, because it’s presented as an opinion with supporting documentation and a reasonable presentation of the reasons for that person’s opinion. I might pout at receiving such a response, but even I can see that this is not only valid but almost certainly correct. It would NOT be an L&C story, even if Jimmy and Cat solve the murder and Perry get promoted to captain. The qualities which would make it an L&C story are simply not present.

To return to the original thought of this thread, how do we know that author A has presented Lois as in love with someone who has supplanted Clark as “the love of her life?” Or vice versa? I think that’s a valid question, despite my insufferable pettiness in asking it earlier. I’d really like to know what people think about this. I’d like to know what to expect when I write my next long story, which pairs – oops. (waves hand in slow circle and types in a soothing voice) These aren’t the spoilers you’re looking for. Move along, move along...

Seriously, can we talk about this calmly? Because it would be nice to know what the readers are looking for and where the boundaries are. Sure, the majority of stories pair Clark and Lois at the end, and yay for that! I prefer to see them together too, at least most of the time. And if there are warning labels to alert the reading public – like a WHAM warning, or an ANGST warning, or a SPLUTTER warning – I’ll start using it if I know about it. I just hate to have coming at me if I don't expect him.

Thanks for reading. I hope you’ll all forgive and understand my tantrum.

Well, Terry, I'm not your average reader who can tell you where the "normal" boundaries are. But I have referred to Becky Bain's Ad Astra Per Aspera at least twice in this thread. I don't like Becky's take on Lois and Clark, but she certainly gave us fair warning. She posted a foreword which began like this:

If you plan to post something similar to Becky Bain's story, a word of warning similar to what she posted might be a good idea.

Ann

Thank-you, Terry, for your apology.

A word about my non-use of 'qualifiers' of the 'this is my opinion' type.
I went to school at a time and in a place where if you didn't pass a rigorous regional exam in grammar, you failed your senior year in high school. (and I might add this was how it should have been!

We were taught that to write "in my opinion", "I think", "I believe", etc. when writing an opinion or argument was redundant because readers should be able to distinguish between fact and opinion when they read.

Consequently, it goes against the grain to use qualifiers (my former English teachers Will! Know!) and so where I've used them in this thread, I've been a bit flippant because of my discomfort.

On the matter of why I didn't perceive TRT as an L&C fic: I had given some reasons in the original TRT fdk thread in explanation and also briefly alluded to a couple of reasons in this thread. I'll e-mail you privately, Terry, with a fuller explanation since this still matters to you. Don't worry, it won't be long:)

As Labrat said above, she knows what an L & C fic is and she knows what a Smallville fic is but she's not going public with the latter perception - I suspect, because, "there be dragons"

By the way, to call something a "Smallville fic" or an SR fic , etc is not an insult, just a descriptor. But then, not having read fanfic other than L & C I don't know what it's like. I would find it difficult to believe that its quality differs from "L & C" fic, though.

I'm sorry, though, that my comments have upset you so much, Terry.

c. (who has decided not to post mbs fdk on stories anymore)

edit: oops, just remembered that I've read a couple of X-files fanfics (not bad ) and I used to read Lou's stories at Pemberley (very good!) and one sitcom fanfic that had been written by a former folc. "L & C" is the only Superman incarnation fanfic I've read though.

This makes me very sad to hear, Carol.

Ann

Your mind powers will not work on me, Terry. I read that and I'm curious.

I wanted to consider this question:

And add my own to it in the discussion as it resembles Terry's: Can Clark/Lois be moderately happy with someone else without it looking as if the person has has supplanted either as “the love of his/her life?” I think this is also an important question, because it's easy to see that not-Lois is not "the love of Clark's life" if a writer has Lois or Clark meet the other person after being in love, or overemphasises not-Lois' faults (or not-Clark's) or includes an obvious huge problem of any sort (domestic abuse, being controlling, cheating, ect).

So, as an example, when Mayson dislikes Superman, then it's easy to see where she and Clark can go wrong (and conversely where he and Lois can go right). It's another matter entirely if Clark and Mayson are "moderately happy" with each other to begin with. But this leads to another question: What makes "moderate happiness" anyway and how can a writer show this?

Going to the series for a guideline-- is there an example to follow of a not-Lois/Clark who doesn't have a huge flag indicating how wrong he/she is as far as our heroes as concerned? Scardino comes to mind (and here I might be way off my rocker, so someone correct me if he's signaled as blatantly not being for Lois the way, say, Mayson was--it's been a while) but the situation is different since by then Lois was already in love with Clark (and vice versa so neither actually had a chance to begin with).

Turning to fic for a sec. A similar situation happens in SQD's excellent When Galaxies Divide. I attach a spoiler warning, mild as it may be. If you (generic "you") haven't read it you should.

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S

Both Clark (as Kal-El) and Lois are involved with other people at different points in the fic. If I recall correctly (and someone please correct me, since I don't want to misrepresent the fic), Kal-El's Zara doesn't have feelings for him (providing the aformentioned "huge problem")and Lois meets Scardino only after she and Kal-El separate and she's already in love with Kal-El. While the fic is fair to Scardino, her already having loved Kal-El and the Zara situation makes it so that there is no question they are each other's "love of a lifetime." How could a writer make this clear, if, say Kal-El had some feeling for Zara or if Lois met Scardino first? That would be a different fic I think.

So the question ends up being: What about when a fic shows not-Lois/Clark already in a "moderately happy" relationship with one of our heroes? In what way can these not-Lois/Clarks be marked as not "the love of a lifetime" without it being obvious (like the overemphasis of faults or a huge problem is)? I want to be clear that I'm not making an argument here, I honestly don't know. I get the sense though that this would be a gut wrenching, tear your heart out type of fic. I suspect that's why good soon-to-be exes get offed so often. Things are cleaner that way.


On the side, I want acknowledge my terminology error. Sorry about that *hand to forehead*. What a dumb mistake! I did take "canon" as the general "what I see in LnC," where characterization was really what I meant (aka interpretable stuff). I think I lost the difference between the two when the 'soul mate' thing came up. Lameness on my part. The sad thing is it probably won't be my last trip up thanks to the ever-increasing cobwebs in my head. Thanks, Labrat, for pointing it out.

alcyone

This bothers me, too. I'd hate to think that I chased someone off, or even contributed to such an outcome. Carol, please don't leave because you and I got so sideways.

And I'm looking forward to reading your e-mail. Seriously.

It's not hard to get sidetracked and turned around on a thread where complex issues are being debated, Alcyone, and when you're trying to organise your thoughts. I've been there myself more than a few times. It's just one of those things.

You seem to have misunderstood my point, Carol.

For clarification: I know in my own mind what the difference is and I'm comfortable with my own opinion on it. But sitting down and explaining it...well, to be brutally honest, I just don't have the curiosity in the question or the interest in any discussion of it to sit down and work it out in my head in a logical enough manner to post on it so that it would make sense to anyone else.

I understand that for you it's a burning question right now. But for me, it's just something I'm not terribly interested in. So it's not worth spending time working out a detailed response on the subject when I have so many other things taking up my time.

Frankly, I'd never have mentioned the subject at all, except that your misunderstanding of my other post forced me to at least allude to it, since it focused your attention towards looking to me for an answer.

LabRat

Labrat posted:
I took your use of 'ain't' and the <g> as a humorous avoidance and so I replied with what I'd hoped was a humorous "there be dragons" acknowledgement. It didn't occur to me to take it as meaning you were just plain bored with the question. Oh well.

To clarify, I was seeking Admin response rather than your personal response which I would not presume to do. As well, I was curious what others thought.

c.

Well, to be comically obvious... if a story has a teenage Clark who's friends (sort-of) with Lex, who has a best pal named Chloe, and a history of dealing with "meteor freaks" then it's probably not L&C.

But it'd be darn near impossible to set down specific guidelines (you can use Lex, you can't have Chloe, etc). So we rely on people's good sense in general, and look at specific cases as they come up. <shrug> Can't really get more specific than that; it's not always black-and-white.

PJ
who, btw, would enjoy a good Smallville Clark&Chloe shipper fic if anyone has any recommendations...