Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Related Types of love and "L & C: tNaoS"

Just a couple comments to Ann's response to my post.

Yes, there are separate folders for both Dean and Teri over at Zoom's boards. And not everyone who posts there are primarily L&C fans, although some are. Certainly a number have stated that they're not interested in fanfic, although that doesn't preclude them from being a fan of the show and its characters.

But people who aren't primarily interested in L&C probably aren't posting over here.

You are rather unique here in that your background is steeped in the comics and the movies. Conversely I have never read any comics, and although I've seen the movies, I do not interchange movieverse with L&C-verse. The fact that Superman gave Lois that awful amnesia-kiss has no relevance at all - for me - to what happens here. I cannot combine those visions of Clark/Superman in my head. You cannot separate your cumulative knowledge of the characters in your head.

I understand your fears for Clark's constancy to Lois, but I cannot begin to share them. And so I never start any story with that fear in my head. The Clark in Lois & Clark had some romantic relationships before coming to Metropolis, but apparently nothing very serious for him either emotionally or physically. But one look at Lois and he fell for her instantly. The thought of another woman never seriously entered his head once that happened. If there is a Elseworld story being posted where Clark is seriously involved with someone before he even meets Lois, I still don't worry. I recognize it as an Elseworld (or an Alt-universe), but I don't question whether or not he's going to fall for Lois; since this is L&C I automatically assume that at some point he will.

There are rare exceptions to this - Ray's story for one, as you pointed out. But an occasional story that differs from the norm is not suddenly going to release a floodgate of other stories all written along similar lines. I truly believe, based on everything I've seen on these boards over the years, that most L&C readers would not be interested in a steady diet of Clark w/o Lois or Lois w/o Clark stories.

So our interpretations of how we view the characters may be different, as has been reiterated in this thread and in many others before that. But I personally don't see conclusive evidence contradicting my belief that underneath we all have the same desire - to want Lois and Clark together, no matter what.

Kathy

EDIT: There was something I forgot. Ann, you pointed out that perhaps I had never seen you venting about Lois's decision to marry Lex. Well, I had, and although I asked you the question, I knew that you didn't support that. But yet you didn't seem to feel it an extraordinary thing to assume that there must be L&C fans who are there primarily for "Dean" and who don't care whether or not he is with Lois? I still don't understand why you would assume this. Is it just because some people are saying that he could potentially find love with someone else? Do you think that anyone who believes in this possibility (and the same for Lois, of course) is *not* part of the majority who believe in the epic, soulmates-type of love as you mention for the first group? And, maybe, isn't even a "true" fan?

This was my impression from your post - let me apologize now in advance if I did misinterpret you.

Gee, and I though I was the only one with that issue around here.

My take - unless it's a straight novelization of the show (what went on the screen with background, if any from the original writers) it's an alt-universe. In the show, Lois and Clark are defined as soul-mates. But soul mates don't always end up together in a particular lifetime. The the canon alt-verse, Clark didn't even realize the possibility that he had a soul-mate until Tempus and Wells got involved. Was that Clark in love with that Lana - he would have said so until he met Lois. If he and Lana had been married when Lois arrived, would he have regretted his decision? Maybe, but he wouldn't have acted on it - that's not how the character is written. Clark his honest and honorable.

If Lana had died before Clark met Lois could they get together - possibly, once he realized he didn't want to spend his life alone. Would that diminish his feelings for his first wife? No more than for any other widowed person who finds a new partner.

Conversely - if Clark had never arrived in Metropolis, would Lois have found someone else? Maybe, maybe not - she has always been written as a woman who needed a man who was her equal - and she has no equal, until Superman shows up.

Maybe a key point is hiding here - Lois knows she has no equal and her experience tells her not to settle for less, until she meets Superman.

Clark knows he has no equal (he is, after all, able to fly) but may be willing to consider what's available - until he meets Lois.

My 2-cents worth.

I'm not so sure, if I may disagree and I hasten to add that this is just my opinion. I'm not so sure that Lois was so egotistical that she would feel that she had no equal. I do believe she was confident about both her skill and talent as a reporter but that same confidence didn't come across in her personal life at all. Not sure, either, that she would think she had no equal as a reporter.

lol - That makes Clark sound so predatory.

like your website, btw.

c.

I have no good answer to that, Kathy. I do think you are wrong when you say

where you imply (or so I think) that many LnC fans truly believe that Lois might find (real) love with someone else. Just like I never saw that as a possibility when I read the comics as a kid, so I've never seen it as a possibility in the LnC fics I've read on these boards. Where has Lois ever moved on, except in Becky Bain's Ad Astra, Per Aspera where she was rather cruelly abandoned by Clark and married another man many, many years later and found a sort of quiet peace with him? Okay, there are also two Terry-fics where Clark either died or divorced Lois, and Lois remarried afterwards. But she was so unhappy that her new husbands had to go back in time and change history so that Lois could be reunited with Clark. That's not what I call Lois being happy with another man. So, Kathy, I think you are wrong when you suggest that many LnC fans believe that Lois might find happiness with another man (if that is what you really suggested - I might well have misunderstood you). In short, I have seen no signs that there is either a supply of or a demand for Lois-moves-on-and-finds-happiness fics on these boards. But there is a supply - a meagre one, but not a non-existent one - of fics where Clark falls in love with another woman and finds happiness, either for the rest of his life as in Ray's It Might Have Been and Classicalla's A New Hero, or temporarily as in Laura's new fic, where Clark was extremely happy with Lana until she suddenly died. I will also insist that there are more Lois deathfics than Clark deathfics posted here. There is a surplus of stories where Clark is widowed and alone or remarried to another woman and happy, and there is a shortage of stories where Lois is widowed and alone or remarried to another man and happy (not that I want to read such Lois stories).

But as so many other people have pointed out, there are really so few stories posted where Lois dies and/or where Clark moves on. And there are so, so many stories where they are in love and together. Why do I focus on the very few stories where (to me) awful things happen? How can I explain my reaction? I don't have a good or rational explanation, except that the stories that hurt me make me hurt so badly. I can't really explain, but let me try to tell a story:

Imagine a girl who was born to parents who were incredibly patriotic Americans. They named their daughter Georgina Freedom, in honor of George Washington and the freedom you can find in America. When Gerogina grew up, she too became incredibly patriotic, and her number one idol was George Washington. Georgina eventually started a fanclub for George Washington, and the members of this fanclub were encouraged to write stories about George Washington's heroic life. The George stories soon became popular, more and more people started to write them, and eventually they started diverging a little from "canon". After all, not everything was known about George Washington's life, and the fans started to "fill in the holes" with their own stories. Gradually the stories became slightly more fanciful. When someone came up with "a new idea about George", many of the members of the fanclub were grateful and supportive.

But then something happened. One member wrote a "George story" which crossed a line. Never mind how it crossed it. Most members of the fanclub found the story acceptable and were not upset, though the overwhelming majority preferred the "normal" George stories. A few members liked the new story idea so much, however, that they decided to write their own George fics in the same vein. And so a handful of the new George stories circulated on the internet.

Georgina Freedom was absolutely horrified. To her, the new stories were downright sacrilegeous. You'd think that with so many other George stories around, Georgina would be more generous and tolerant of of a few "alt-ideas" about her hero. Not Georgina! After she had read these stories, they burned themselves into her soul like acid, festering and aching as they kept her wondering how anyone could think of George that way. And what, she asked herself, would happen if more and more people got to know those stories and actually started thinking of George that way themselves? It was not as if George was alive and could defend himself.

And that is the end of my story, and the moral is... I don't exactly have one. Except perhaps that when you care too deeply about a hero who is either fictional or dead, seeing him presented in way that is awful to you is going to hurt a lot. And the fact that there are so many other stories that don't hurt you won't make the story that does hurt you hurt you any less. If someone hands you an enormous bunch of flowers and there is just one nettle among them, that nettle is still going to sting you if you are careless enough to touch it.

Is my hyper-sensitivity and downright allergy to some LnC stories reasonable? Is it normal that they can sting me like nettles? Of course not. What can I say? I'm not reasonable when it comes to my preferences about Lois and Clark. Kathy, as you pointed out, I can't fully separate what I know about the comics and movies versions of Lois and Clark from what I see of them on these boards. And because I know that Lois gets short-changed in most of the generic world of Superman, and because that hurts me a lot, seeing her getting short-changed on these boards, too, is going to hurt me even worse. And that is true even if we are only talking about a small number of stories.

But, Kathy, this is a very relevant question:

I had no right to assume that. You are right about what you said about Zoomway's boards. The true Dean fans, who care about Dean rather than about Lois and Clark, will read about the latest Dean gossip on Zoom's boards instead of reading fanfic about about Lois and Clark over here.

And now I don't think I can make myself a lot clearer, no matter how muddy my thought processes have been here.

Ann

I... uhh... hesitate to get involved here. But I did want to respond to just one point.

Actually, that's not exactly true. I just wanted to comment on this, for anyone who might be interested in how one might deal with this problem... (if they want to deal with it at all, of course ).

Well, Demi, in her author's comments to Heaven\'s Prisoners , deals with exactly that sort of problem (by 'primary catalist', I assume she means Clark leaving Lois - although, I should point out that has always just been my assumption of what she didn't think would work in the Lois and Clark universe ).

You might want to check it out. It lets people know right up front that there might be some problems with your basic premise, but that you want to explore how Lois and Clark might have handled it anyway.

I really appreciated that comment the first time I read the story because it allowed me to suspend my disbelief long enough to get to the good parts .

Just a thought for anyone who wants the option. (who only reads Lois and Clark for... well, Lois and Clark - oh, and the nfic. Must not forget the nfic )

Ann, thank you. I appreciate your response. I'm not going to say much because I think I've been entirely too vocal in this thread, but I can't make myself shut up entirely.

No, you didn't misunderstand me.

I am making an assumption here as well, one which others may agree with but some may not. Yes, there are more Lois deathfics than Clark deathfics. Yes, there may be more stories of Clark moving on with some degree of happiness after Lois' death than the reverse. Whether there is a surplus of one and a dearth of another is a relative term, considering the very small sample numbers we are talking about for all the categories. Some FoLCs would avoid stories in any of these categories. Some who would pick and choose, some would probably read all of them.

But you can't read stories if they aren't there. And you can't simply say that the stories aren't there because no one will read them. If a writer's muse is not inspired (for lack of a better word) to write a Lois-happily-moving-on story, how can we read it?

So I have no more hard facts than you do. This is strictly my opinion. But until we get evidence one way or the other, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Kathy (who is thinking of creating a poll, but thinks that maybe this horse is completely flogged at this point...)

So if Nan had not used Lori but Sharon or Teri or Lisa or Helen you could read and enjoy the series?

Terry,

Is this why you are so bothered by Carol's POV? Because by her standard your story isn't L&C?

For the record I loved that story. I felt it was the best Lana I'd ever read. I wish the Smallville folks would have read it and learned from it. But I do read Smallville stuff and some comic based stuff and MovieVerse stuff.

But Terry, if we apply the following POV

"The Road Taken" is not a L&C story. The Clark in the story was only somewhat like "our", your Lana had only a hint of the L&C Lana and Lois, your Lois was the most like our "Lois", but still wasn't our Lois.

It was a delightful story, as I said at the time it first appeared, and I look forward to the sequel. I think after the trauma you put Clark and Lois through that it will only be after decades of angst, if ever, that he could allow himself to feel love for Lois. I am looking forward to a nice long adventure story where Lois & Clark learn to work together and become in time friends. I figure you've got at least four or five stories to write before you can let them them love each other.

I would not have shied away from the story right away if Lori had had another name. But as soon as I found out that Lois was dead and Clark was involved with another woman, albeit one who was said to be an incarnation of Lois, I would have lost interest in the story. Sorry.

And Kathy, I know I should have shut up by now, but...

Well, as far as the demand for Lois-moves-on fics is concerned, there is a folder here where members can post their demands and preferences for new stories, namely the Fanfic Challenge folder. I distinctly remember that someone posted a challenge for a Clark-moves-on fic some time ago. I also remember that Carol replied that such stories already exist on these boards. But as for challenges for Lois-moves-on fics, unless Carol was provoked into posting such a challenge after Ray had written It Might Have Been - did you do that, Carol? - I don't think that anyone has ever posted a challenge for a story where Lois finds happiness with another man. (Just a few days ago Patrick posted a Lois Luthor challenge, but I don't think you were asking for a story where Lois finds wedded bliss with Luthor, were you, Patrick?)

Well, so much for the demand for Lois-moves-on fics. As for the supply side, if not a single writer of LnC fanfic has ever found that his or her muse has been inspired to write a Lois-happily-moving-on story, then that fact means something to me. And if, at the same time, a very small but not non-existent number of writers of LnC fanfic have indeed found that their muses have been inspired to write Clark-happily-moving-on stories, then that fact, too, means something to me. To me, the stories posted reflect the ideas about Lois and Clark that circulate in this community, and the kind of stories that never get posted represent ideas that aren't popular here. And that is pretty much my point. But I can't prove that I'm right about what I take to be the reason for the absence of Lois-happily-moving-on fics, so yes, let's agree to disagree.

Ann

No, never.

No, I've never posted such a challenge, Ann. I did once start a thread asking why there was a dearth of Lois-moves-on fics, however.

I agree with that - my old argument about how our values and attitudes, our culture, the times we live in are subconsciously reflected in what we write no matter how much we may try to avoid that. These things also act as filters for how we perceived the characters. Like Luthor's complaint to Superman about Lois - "She's just a little too independent." Yet we never got the sense that Superman perceived Lois in that way.

Anyway, part of me would like to issue a challenge like that, but then I wouldn't read the story that resulted so it would be hugely hypocritical to issue such a challenge.

I'm also curious why Lois's previous relationships are never portrayed as "love" and as satisfying, and that she's never portrayed as a widow whose had a happy marriage prior to her meeting Clark or as happily married to a good guy when she meets Clark. But I'm not familiar with all the stories here or on the archive, so this type of premise may be out there, and just as often as it is for Clark.

c.

Argh...can't...stay...away....

I want to refute this, but first I want to go back to one of Sara's key points,

Even in LnC (this is me, not Sara btw)it's not _one_ thing that makes "our" Clark but a combination that varies and overlaps from person to person. Thus this "our" Clark is never objective, never one thing alone for everyone. It's always "somewhat" Clark, and in fact even in the series it's "somewhat" Clark as his character's consistency can be debated. The same can be said for "our" Lois and as for Lana-- I believe Terry warned his readers beforehand of that particular change. This is somewhat similar to MLT's strategy, (which is a good strategy for some protection from premise-related negative feedback, but as Terry's example suggests, not fail-safe).

But back to Framework--to make your argument without the qualifiers ("it's not Clark" as fact)-- even based on what Sara states-- you need to prove that we can agree 100% on what are the "characteristics" of Clark and the "characteristics" of Lois that we saw on the show. Then, based on that democratic metric we can judge what is an "objectively" good characterization.

But as I've said, these "characteristics" are themselves subject to interpretation from the moment they were shown to us. There is a way around this however, you can adhere strictly to what was overtly mentioned and requires no interpretation. I'm not sure anyone would actually want to do this though...you wouldn't be left with very much to work with.

alcyone (who is embarrassed for being unable to keep away, poor horsie...)

I can't stay away either...

Ann, I understand the point you're making about demand for Lois-moving-on stories, but I'm afraid I don't look at it quite the way you do (which comes as no surprise). I'm not saying that people are clamoring for such stories, any more than they're clamoring for Clark-moving-on stories. Since I think we're all agreed that the majority of us want L&C together - always - then usually no one would clamor for anything else but that.

However, just because you don't ask for it, doesn't mean that you're not open-minded enough to read it if it's offered to you. I've even read a couple of slash fics set in the L&C universe. They weren't to my tastes, and I would never have put out a challenge, for example, asking someone to write slash, but I was willing enough to read the stories when I found them.

And with the muses...well, I disagree that just because no one has written it yet doesn't mean that no one ever will. Yes, it would not be a popular idea here - but quite frankly, Clark moving on is not popular here either, even though it does exist. And in at least some of those stories, it exists due to tweaks of canon that were introduced in the show: Clark mistakenly believing that Lois has in fact married Lex, Clark's molecular structure leading him to live far beyond when Lois has already lived a long and very fulfilling life with him. Not every Clark-moving-on story falls within those parameters, but one can see where at least some of the ideas came from.

If I understood the process as to how writers come up with some of their premises for stories and then successfully execute them, believe me, you would have seen lots of stories from me over the past six years. Yet there hasn't been one.

Kathy

Okay, against my better judgement, I’m going to add my two cents (which is probably more than my thoughts are worth ).

I have to say that I’m confused. By reading the posts, I get the feeling that we’re not allowed to talk about ‘canon’ anymore. Why? Has it become a dirty word and no one sent me the memo?

I would think that ‘canon’ is sort of an important element to consider when writing any story that claims to be fanfic of Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman - even if the author chooses not to follow it. After all, canon is where our characters come from. So for the remainder of this post, pretend I didn’t get the memo.

In my opinion, canon clearly portrays a number of things while there are certainly other things that aren’t so clear. As has been mentioned above, Clark is clearly the real character in Lois and Clark and Superman is the disguise. I suspect we all agree on that (although I may be wrong).

But still... if we can do anything we want with the characters then why can’t we write stories where Superman is the real character and Clark is simply the disquise - or in other words, Superman Returns fics? Why can’t we write Smallville stories and simply say ‘Hey this is an alternate take on the characters?’ Doesn’t there have to be some sort of standard - however loose - for what we consider Lois and Clark stories? Why, for example, is a George and Lynn story not simply considered an alternate universe version of Lois and Clark?

So... although we might not always agree as to what is or isn’t in character, isn’t it always an important discussion to have? And doesn’t that require that we look back at canon - and work on trying to explain why things are different if we deviate from canon? Or simply admit that our Lois or Clark is acting out of character in a particular story that we write - but that we wanted to explore the premise anyway.

So... on to the topic of this thread. Canon says that Lois and Clark are soulmates: destined to meet and fall in love lifetime after lifetime. Now, in real life, I don’t believe in soulmates. (But then again, in real life, I happen to think that “falling in love” is nothing more than an instinctive animal reaction designed to ensure the propagation of the species.) However, the show clearly portrayed Lois and Clark’s love as ‘the one true love that changes you.’

Now, I don’t have a problem with either Lois or Clark falling in love with someone else before they meet or even after one of them dies. But, in my opinion, there has to be something qualitatively different about those relationships. Not that the relationships can't be good - just different. In the Lois and Clark universe, Lois and Clark are soulmates - and one can’t, to my understanding of the concept, have serial soulmates. To me, that is one of the things that makes a story uniquely Lois and Clark.

Having said that, I think anyone should feel free to write whatever they want - just like I, as a reader, have the right to say that I’m not interested in reading such stories or that I disagree with your take on the characters - just like you’re free to say that you disagree with my take on the characters. Sometimes, I might even look at your comments and realize that you’re right - that I have stepped over the lines of what is or is not a true portrayal of the characters. Maybe at that point, I’ll rethink the story or the characters - and correct the problem. Or maybe I’ll say: “You’re right. But I still want to explore this idea anyway.” Or maybe we’ll agree to disagree about the characters and all go on our merry way.

Now, that doesn’t mean that some of that criticism won’t hurt. I’ve been known to storm around my house for a couple of hours after someone has criticized one of my stories - scaring my dog half to death . I’ve been known to rant and rave - and even cry - because someone told me there was something wrong with my story. Still, once I’ve gotten past that, and had a chance to think about what the person has to say, I often find that I agree with them (not always, of course. And there are people whose criticism I simply ignore - sometimes not even bothering to read it - because I know we are always going to disagree.) Still, some of the most inspired moments in my stories are the result of heeding to constructive criticism. And, yes, some of the criticism has been about ‘characterization.’

Finally, I’d like to address some of the comments Terry leveled at Carol. I thought the comments were unfair. I think Carol is as entitled to her opinion as you are to yours, Terry. I suspect you’d like everyone to see things the way you do - and yet you criticize Carol by saying that she wants everyone to see things the way she does. Truth is, all of us would like to have everyone see everything the way we do. It’s human nature. (I know, after all, I want all of you to agree with me ). And reading through Carol's comments, I certainly didn't see anything I thought was disrespectful. So I think we would all be better served if we just stated our opinions and left the personal attacks out of it.

Anyway, those are my two cents worth (although if you offered me a cent and a half, I’d probably sell them for that)

ML (who will now go back and climb under her rock)

This is just a friendly reminder from one of the board’s moderators.

I have only skimmed some of the comments in this thread and am definitely not stating an opinion on the topic.

I want to remind everyone that we are all entitled to express our opinions on posted topics. You certainly don’t have to agree with everything posted. However, please remember to be courteous and avoid personal attacks when posting. Posters should not feel as if they have been flamed.

Thank you,

Tricia

Hmm. I sense there might be some confusion. To clarify _my own_ canon-related arguments here as they might be easily misinterpreted elsewhere:

1.No two views of LnC canon are 100% alike, but they are both valid and often overlap. How much each are valid and overlap are subject to debate.

2.Since no two views of LnC canon are 100% alike, when I point out a subtle difference (regarding something subject to interpretation, be it in importance or some other way) in an author’s view of LnC canon as reflected in a fic—this is an opinion. Not fact. I do not hold the end-all “definitive” view of LnC canon. (of course many *opinions* say something about the overlap mentioned above and validity with regards to fandom)

Canon is not a dirty word to me, but "your canon" in terms of importance and interpretation of motivations, events, etc is not "my canon."

Topic at hand:
Labrat said--

I think this quote is really useful. For me, this “soul mates” thing--until I see it in narrowly defined in the faq to mark it as *indispensable* element to the LnC fanfic world and thus, necessary to all fic to be here--is an "individual's specific taste." So is Lois and Clark working at the Daily Planet (here I’m thinking of of those yummy NK Elseworld fics), getting together in the first season, or second season, the comedy genre, the drama genre, etc, etc. As far as LnC _fanfiction_ is concerned as a whole. I might read some of those fics and find them to be awesome. But some fics don’t fit into that and, hey, that’s awesome too.

More specifically, this thread, IMO (to be safe), suggests that using canon (let's take the oft mentioned episode) to "prove" to skeptics how "intrinsic"/"essential" soul mate-ness is to LnC fanfic is a shaky project. In this case, it appears to be so because its importance (in light of the whole series) and even the way the notion of 'soul mate' is interpreted varies so much from person to person.

That's a beautiful thing.

alcyone (who will make her exit on this positive note, but adds that should anyone want to debate she's always game--just pm her)

If there is nothing readily identifiable as "L & C" fic then, why the ban on posting Smallville and SR fic? Surely it could be argued that those are just elseworld or alt-fics?

I know ADMIN had said no to that issue, but in the light of both what Alycone has said about the elusiveness of canon and what Labrat has ruled in the quote cited above, I'm puzzled. If canon is in the eyes of the beholder, and in fact may not even exist, then isn't Smallville fic really just "Early Years" L & C, while SR is a variation of NK-fic, while both could be labelled Elsewhere fics?

I'm not requesting Smallville and SR fic be posted here - just bewildered. But I read the thread in this folder that dealt with that request and came away a bit confused by it. Alcyone's post reminded me.

c.

I think there's been some confusion of terminology here. Now, I haven't read the entire thread - in fact, I've read very little of it - so there may be a good reason for why that is and you may be aware of it. Bear with me.

Canon is not open to debate. Canon is a fact established on the show that cannot be open to interpretation by its very nature. It is indisputable.

Canon:

Lois Lane keeps fish.
Perry White has an Elvis obsession.
Clark Kent can fly.

What is open to interpretation is how we view the characters beyond the narrow limits of canon that the show gives us. It's a human truth that no two people will view things in the same way. If they did, there'd be no debates on TV show forums. Everyone would see exactly the same thing. Clearly, this doesn't happen. How many times have you read a forum debate on an episode of your favourite show and found yourself thinking, "Huh? How on earth did you come to that conclusion? Where you watching the same thing I was?" or even "You know...I never thought of that. You're right, he did look guilty..."

So even for a story which adheres to canon, there's an awful lot of wiggle room for character interpretation.

And then, of course, there are stories and authors who toss canon in the bin and leap off into the wild unknown. That's called 'exploring all of the possibilities'. Or 'what if...?'. And that's been a basic of fanfic for the entire three decades I've been involved in fandoms. It's probably the most cited reason why someone begins to write fanfic in the first place. "I was watching TOGOM and I suddenly thought, what if...?", "I always thought it was a shame that the clone died and thought I'd change that..."

Of course there are stories which diverge so wildly from canon and the general consensus of characterisation that they are OOC...but even these can work within the basics of the show if they are handled correctly. I'd personally find a story where Clark murdered someone wildly OOC. But if the author presented a very good, logical reason why he committed murder - and more than one author has successfully done so - then I'll go with it, believe in it, and it won't be OOC at all. It will make perfect sense and still be my Clark.

What constitutes exploration, what if, OOC or Elseworld is of course open to interpretation, too, and will depend on how you see the characters. One reader's OOC is another's Elseworld.

I think the debate here in most recent posts has been about character interpretation - which, as the name suggests is open to interpretation - and not about canon - which isn't.


LabRat

Thanks, for replying, L.

But what about fics where the powers are reversed - it's Lois who has the powers and Clark can't fly? They've been accepted as Elsewhere.

As well, in alt-universe fics, Perry isn't always an Elvis fan.

Not sure about the fish though. Lois either has them or they're not mentioned in fics. And a couple of times, those fish have been the stars of the story

Anyway, I can't think of anything that would prevent a Smallville fic from being considered as An Early Years L & C fic - no canon reasons, given our wide open definition of canon, and our exclusion of character traits from it. Can anyone?

(disclaimer, I'm not at all a Smallville fan!

c.

I think it's the character traits themselves. There are a lot of traits that stick with LCTAOS which aren't necessarily found in the other incarnations, and some that can't be found in the other incarnations. Present to me three fics based on non-canon versions of each show, and I can probably tell you which incarnation they belong to. Such as every time I've seen Smallville (which, I admit, is relatively rare), there is absolutely no way I can see that Clark Kent as the Superman we know and love. And there are so many differences between L&C's Clark Kent and the movieverse's Clark Kent. Don't get me started on that, though, because I never did like the movieverse's version and the Silver Age. The character just didn't make sense to me.

Even with elseworlds and alt-universes, there are so many bits and pieces of the characters that are intrinsic to L&C. And I don't think there is a way I could find them in any other version.

Well, those are examples of the stories contained in the following group mentioned in my last post:

And, yes, they could easily be considered Elseworld or Alt-Universe if they diverge enough from canon. I'm pretty sure that these and similar examples have been.

I'm a little confused as to your reply here, Carol, referencing my post, or what your point above is. I'm getting the impression that in some way you thought that my last post was in some way an answer to your last question about Smallville etc. Just in case and to clarify - it wasn't. I was simply confused when I skimmed over previous posts and found a discussion labelled canon which seemed to me to be more about character interpretation and wanted to point out that they aren't the same thing. I felt the confusion over the terminology might be confusing the debate.

I'm a bit confused as to your point here, too. But if you mean there's some issue over whether Lois keeps fish is canon or not, then the answer is, yes, it's canon. It's an established fact direct from the show. No one is ever going to win an argument which starts out, "Lois Lane hates fish..." because someone is simply going to come along and shoot that one down in flames with "Okay, in episode X, scene Y...could that be an aquarium I spy in Lois's apartment..."

Anyway, it may just be the time of day and the fact that I'm exhausted after spending the weekend babysitting our friend's dog (she's fun to have for a visit, but it is rather like keeping company with two juvenile delinquents when she and Homer get together :rolleyes: )....but I didn't really understand the points you were making in reference to my last post. Apologies if I've misunderstood what your meaning was. (Which, the more I consider it, seems ever more likely... )

LabRat