Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Related Why no "Lois moving on" fics?

This is a very true statement - I know it first hand. <DJ bows and scrapes to the keepers of the archive and boards )

Yes, but you can always get around that (if you so desire) by going to the dark side... err... I mean, nfic side. <g>

Hah! Lucky you, Pam. We got ice last weekend and snow is on its way this weekend. Eeep!

-- DJ

Arawn, what the heck is fanwanking?

My impression has pretty much been that if you call it Elseworld, don't give Lois a kid named Jason, and don't blatantly come out and say that it is based on a different Superman, then you can write whatever you want as long as the basic characters and relationships are there. And I am so glad for that. I am here for L&C's love and their struggle to find their place in the world and with each other, no matter where they live, where they work or in some cases what planet they live on.

Wikipedia. It\'s a beautiful thing.

Yup, that's pretty much it.

Yes, you're right, we did.

IIRC, it was a short story about Superman grieving for the death of Lois and Wonder Woman coming over to comfort him.

My feeling was that while the Superman character didn't have any characteristics that would especially mark him out as the Superman of LNC, he didn't have any characteristics that marked him as not being the Superman of LNC either. The author claimed it was the Superman of LNC and there was nothing to contradict him.

The presence of Wonder Woman didn't especially mark it out as a non-LNC story because, of course, it had been established on the show that Gotham City and Batman existed in LNC's world. So, if they did, why not Wonder Woman? <g>

Also, IIRC it was quite short and was focused on the two characters, so there were no background details that would tell you you were in world of the comics. Or LNC's world either.

So, I figured so long as the readers could imagine him as their Superman and there was nothing to jar them out of that, it was good to go. You're right that it was probably the most borderline story we've hosted.

Lisa more or less has it right, too. Most deviations in characterisations we'd probably put down to Elseworld.

Authors should remember that the Archive hosts stories about the characters from LOIS AND CLARK only and not just stories about any Superman and Lois and try to fit within those parameters. If, for instance, the characters were clearly those of Superman Returns or the comics with no LNC content whatsoever the story would be rejected. Using the characters of other Superman versions, in conjunction with the characters of LNC (crossover)is, of course, fine. But we would like to see a significant LNC content.

But if you're setting out to write about our Lois and our Clark, intending to write a LNC story, then you'd probably have to go off at a very large tangent to not be accepted.

Oh, and just to add - we got snow today, too! Homer is ecstatic. <g> You just have to mention the word snow to him and he grabs for his nearest toy and goes ape. We had to laugh though - our garden is under several inches of snow and we sat there listening to the weatherman tell us there was snow in our area "but it's not settling". Oh yeah?

LabRat

Yes but what is the show in terms of fanfic? I’d say a number of canonical elements, ignore or twist enough of them and sooner or later depending on the reader, he/she wont consider it L&C fanfic anymore.

If someone writes a story about Harry Potter, reuses the plot element of the L&C pilot and wan’ts call it a L&C fanfic, it’s no skin of my nose, but I assume that that such a expression of creativity would be a hard sale to the archive administration.

Yes, speaking as a reader now, I certainly agree that it's a question of degree. We are never all going to see the characters in exactly the same way, so some varation on characterisation is a given and generally accepted.

But there will undoubtedly come a point - unless the story is quite clearly an Elseworld - when I will lose interest if the author's idea of the characters deviates too far from my own. The point at which I deem them to be acting OOC. This, I am sure, holds true for most readers.

However, it's also a given that the point of OCC will vary just as much with readers as it does with authors. Although I do think that there is a majority of general concensus on what the characters should be that generally underpins things and most stories don't deviate too far from that majority concensus.

Having said that, if you're posting a story and 99% of your readers tell you that your characters are OOC for them - maybe they're on to something. Although, it is of course always up to the author as to whether they agree, pay attention or go their own sweet way on it.

I think the Archive benefits from the fact that most of the submitted stories are posted here first. Generally speaking, if your story is acceptable for posting on the mbs (in gfic) then it'll be acceptable to the Archive. So any stories in the past which may have been borderline have probably been changed by their authors in reponse to this forum's fdk responses long before they get submitted.

At any rate, all I can say as EIC of the Archive is that in all the years that the Archive has been in operation, rejections on the grounds of non-LNC content have been very, very rare. Far less than even 1%, I'd calculate. Happens once in a blue moon. I think, generally speaking, that the majority concensus on characterisation is more usually the norm than any gross deviation. We're more together on how we see the characters than apart.

LabRat

But, actually L&C fanfic breaks - or at least tweaks - canon a lot. I'm not sure why you refer to a fervent deference to canon - our writers deviate from canon all the time. How many hundred variations do we have on their first kiss, the big revelation for Lois, first declarations of love, etc. All of those are altering canon from what we saw in the show, but almost everyone loves these variations.

And because the show was so kind as to present us with an alt-Clark, that gives people a whole other universe to play in that a lot of shows don't provide.

I think this is the key. Not so much that people aren't willing to deviate from canon, but that they're less willing to embrace deviation from their vision of the particular characters. Certainly there have been stories posted where I thought Clark was acting OOC, for example, yet many disagreed with me and cited examples from the show to back them up. I was not necessarily convinced, and just have to accept the fact that we each view circumstances a bit differently.

However, you can have stories - here or in any other fandom - where the main characters appear to bear so little resemblance to the show where the writer could attach just about any name to those main characters, because to most people it's no longer Lois and Clark.

Kathy

But canon is regularly cited as the basis of that. That's what I'm referring to. Not simply that people see characters differently, but that they hold canon up before the whole subjective nature of it even gets stated (though to be fair someone eventually brings it up every time). And before I continue I should also make the distinction that by canon I'm referring to the question "would this happen in the series?"

I definitely was not considering rehashings of certain events as not being canon. To consider things like a first kiss or the revelation as a deviation from canon because it didn't happen exactly like in the series is defining "canon" too broadly and what space would such a definition leave for fanfic? No, I'm referring to the subjective views of characters and events which are tied down to canon for legitimacy.

And ultimately, I'm not being prescriptive and pushing for a free-for-all. We as fans obviously have limits and canon maps out these limits (even if hazily at times). That said, my own (I should disclaim) entirely subjective perception is that there is perhaps less benefit of the doubt in this fandom with respect to certain plots or at least a great deal of expressed skepticism. Because of that, it is a tribute to the excellent writing of some daring fanfics that they've managed to be read and loved despite how they walk the line between what is "canon" and what is not (be it in characterization and/or plot).

To go very briefly back on topic, I'm suprised that there aren't that many Lois moves on fics. On the fly, I'm assuming writers think of Superman's physical invincibility first before thinking of Lois' emotional hardiness. The whole "punishing" Lois though kinda disturbs me; the idea of writing a fic with punishment in mind is...curious. It conjures up this idea of a flat view of the characters, where punishment is needed because there is no reason for the wrong comitted. If a writer does the opposite, fleshing out the characters in their good and their bad qualities, why would there be a need for "punishment"? Wouldn't things just take their own logical course?

And now back to unpacking.

Well... if you hold a certain opinion about a character, which you are explaining/defending, and there's a scene from the show that seems to prove your point, why not use it? I think that's mostly what those things are about -- someone saying, "No, I am NOT crazy to think X because the same thing was in episode Y" (Someone will probably come back with how it was totally contradicted in episode Z, but that's the fun of it.)

Most of us aren't trying to impose our opinion on anyone, we just want to make it understandable. The best end to that is everyone saying "Okay, I see what you mean. I still don't see it that way, but I can see how you would."

That's how I see it, anyway. Personally, I think canon is a wonderful starting place, to be altered or ignored at will

And I was thinking the other day about the "Lois moving on" issue -- my mother and grandmother both outlived two husbands. Women in general live longer than men, so that's very common. Women "move on" every day. Superheros, not so much. Maybe we're not so interested in the stuff we know about, but want to explore the stuff we don't know so much about.

Just a thought

PJ

In the past, FoLCdom has certainly been much less tolerant of fanfic outside the box or its comfort zone than most other fandoms. And that box was often a pretty small one.

I don't really know the reasons for that, there are probably many, but I have been delighted to see new authors over the years push the boundaries and expand that box ever more large.

Certainly many of the stories posted here in the last year or two would have been met with furious debate, complaints and even flame wars in the past. It's liberating that that's no longer the case and that stories are allowed to push the envelope, be a little daring or experimental, with more acceptance and tolerance, or at the very least a willingness to follow along with the author and go along for the ride.

We're not all the way into complete tolerance (I suspect there are still subjects and situations which are the norm to write about in other fandoms which would still meet with resistance here - slash for example I can't ever see getting rave reviews in FoLCdom <G>), but we've come a long way, baby. Stories that a few years back were controversial would barely raise the flicker of an eyebrow if posted now.

And it's wonderful to see it happen.

LabRat

Oh, boy... I wonder if anyone ever gave Lois a kid named Jason before SR came out? I remember a lot of Jons, CJs, and Laras, or some play on Martha's name, but no Jasons.


Ah, and the wiki answer... Hmm... Kind of like folks trying to read more into the Beatle's Strawberry Fields and other songs, when they were probably meant to be nothing more than nonsense...


Aw, that's just so cute.


I think that depends on the reader, Arawn. Some people won't tolerate little deviances. Some will tolerate huge deviances.


Somebody tried something similar on Zoom's board. The story was yanked and my understanding is that the original author was pretty miffed. (Thank goodness no one made any money because of the plagiarized story.)


Thank you, LabRat!


Interesting point about OOC. I can see a character doing one thing OOC because we all sometimes do things and wonder what the heck we were thinking because normally we would never have done that. But if everything is OOC then I won't read the story.


Yes, LabRat, I think you're right!!


You said it better than I did, Kathy!


Are there really a lot of writers that do that? I can only think of one story that might have had that in mind. I know writers have been accused of that, but how many have actually done that with that very intent?


Well said, Pam.

Labrat,
What I have seen mentioned when this subject comes up is that L&C has a very defined canonical map,
In most series the ship continuously hinge on the cusp to keep the tension alive giving fans greater opportunity to interpret things as they will.
L&C goes all the way and their love is the fulcrum which everything else turns, Those who want to turn that on it’s head aren’t likely to have been attracted to the show in the first place.
And I believe that is why there is so little controversy in the community no shipwars etc. I can understand those who find this conformism stifling though, I’m actually amazed with myself that I can still find enjoyment in a love story that I’ve read a thousand variants of.

Nancy,

Hmm, I thought that was exactly what I said.


I tried illustrating what happens when you keep the canonical element to the minimum. Plot is an extremely generic concept.
If you simply use that, I expect the consensus would be that your work are not derivate enough for it be called a LnC fanfic.

Ah, I should clarify my earlier comment on this. I think there's a difference between having a character do something OOC - let's say, just for example, having Clark blackmail someone for cash - and having them do something OOC with justification.

I've said previously in the past on other posts that I am a HUGE believer in the fact that you can make your characters do anything, absolutely anything, even something that would normally seem completely abhorant to their character, so long as you provide the motivation for it.

So if an author sets up the action properly, takes time to show me why Clark would blackmail someone, then I'll be happy to go along with it. But if an author just has Clark blackmailing someone without showing me how he got to that decision, what his intentions are, and how he justifies it, then I'm probably not going to buy it and just get annoyed at the character rape.

A good example from the show is probably having Clark breaking into and robbing the jewellery store in ATAI. On the face of it, without expanation or set up, a completely OOC thing for him to do. Something you can't ever imagine him doing. But add in the setup that his parents are being held hostage and threatened with death unless he does...and you can understand his motivation and why he did it. So, it works. (Although I'm pretty sure there are several authors who could find an alternative method for him to rescue Martha and Jonathan without him having to commit a robbery. But, hey, that wasn't what was required for the episode plot and the scriptwriters of ATAI took a different route.)

As you say, Nancy, sometimes people just act OOC. It happens in real life, so there's no reason why it shouldn't happen to our favourite characters. But there's usually a reason for it that seems logical to the person or character at the time, even if the rest of the world can't understand what is motivating them and even if they subsequently change their minds and realise they were acting loony tunes.

So, authors, show me the reason why a character is acting OOC in any given situation and I'll probably go along with the premise quite happily. But I usually do need to know what prompted such unusual or irrational behaviour for it to work for me.

You're right that ship has never been a point of contention in FoLCdom, Arawn. The flame wars and 'intense debates' have usually been about elements of fanfic. For example, there was a time - as I've mentioned previously elsewhere and in the past - where to even mention the word nfic, let alone recommend or discuss nfic stories, was liable to spark off flames. There was a time when a section of FoLCdom virulently objected to angst as a genre. That one provoked many a bitter debate for a time.

And, of course, to someone like myself, who wrote fanfic for some decades before doing so for LNC and so was used to such genres being written and talked about as the norm in other fandoms, where they never provoked even the thought of controversy, that was somewhat restrictive. (Although, as you may have noticed by now, it never stopped me (or several other authors) writing nfic or angst. )


LabRat