Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Related Hijacking a fdk thread

I like what alcyonearia0205 said:

You are so right. Look at all the things that have been written about Superman since the 1930's?

Almost any story line should be okay to write about as long as it is well written. Even if it's not something you would like, there is always going to be someone who likes it.

What does IMHO mean??

In My Humble Opinion. You'll also see imo (In My Opinion).

LabRat

Prety much everything I would have said has been said at some point, but this caught my attention...

My only thought was, RL, anyone? I don't know about everyone else, but 2006 completely turned me into a gusher! I used to not like giving feedback unless I could make some specific comments, but now I'm just brain-dead at the end of the day. I haven't noticed if there's an increase or not, but I am starting to notice the token people that I can always count on to write some interesting detailed feedback...

Jen...

KathyM wrote:

Speaking of thread drift...but I just couldn't leave this alone!

Kathy, this is a very nice sentiment, but it strikes me as excessively cautious. It sounds like your comments have pretty consistently been thoughtful and well-intentioned and probably helpful as well. It seems a great shame for you to put a lid on them just because someone sometime might overreact. If that were to happen, I really believe the overreaction would be the author's fault, not yours.

I've already said that as a reader I prefer to offer most criticism privately, via e-mail, and yes, that's partly because I've seen some overreactions to constructive criticism. (Interestingly, nine times out of ten, the overreactions have come from the author's *friends* rather than from the author herself.) It's also because it's easier to have an actual dialogue with the author without the world looking on and commenting, and because my comments often take the form of fiddly nitpicks about grammar and such that don't make for interesting discussion anyway.

As a writer, however, I fully believe that if I post in a public forum, thus tacitly asking for reviews of my work, I need to be prepared to suck it up and graciously deal with whatever criticism comes my way. I absolutely refuse to be an author who relishes the squees and then melts into a heap at the first breath of criticism. If I post it, the readers are welcome to say anything they want to about it. Anything. And no, I don't advertise that, though perhaps I should, but to me it just seems incredibly obvious. If I'm not feeling strong enough to take criticism - yes, even of my beloved paragraph that I labored over for hours - then I'll keep my work tucked safely away on my hard drive where no one can say mean things about it.

I've had this discussion enough times to know that there are strong opinions on the other side of this argument. Please know that I am not condoning flames or blatantly hurtful comments to any author. You're right that it takes guts to put a story out there for public consumption, and I've always tried to respect that and to balance criticism with praise. But I just hate to see a thoughtful reader and reviewer unnecessarily silenced. I think most writers are tougher than you're giving them credit for being and would welcome your comments

Best,

Caroline

Most of the things I want to say have been said. I'm just going to elaborate on what I consider acceptable and what not in a fdk thread:

As CC said, discussing the pros and cons of a fic is great. But the problem, as Rivka points out, is that discussing whether deathfic should be written or not does not belong to the fic's FDK thread. Why? Because being a deathfic is not a pro, or a con. It's a fact that cannot be subject to interpretation, but is only a matter of taste.

Linguistic aspects, such as grammar, syntax and vocabulary, are things a reader can comment on - offer a better alternative for a word, point out unclear sentences, stuff like that. As a whole, educated people tend to agree on linguistic aspects (well, for the most part) and that's why we can accept feedback and criticism on it.

Aspects like characterization, plot consistency etc. can be subject to interpretation. Readers can offer their views on them, and give an opinion of whether it's been done well or not. These aspects quite subjective, but they are aspects one can justify their opinion on, by bringing up examples from the actual show or what have you, depending on what we are discussing. Therefore, feedback and criticism on it is also acceptable.

Now, discussion of the actual nature of the fic is something I think one cannot discuss in a fdk folder. Why? Because it is completely subjective, and, in addition, is not something that should be corrected.

Imagine a comment: "I didn't like this story because it was too WAFFy. There should be a little more angst in it to balance it out."

If you put some more angst, it's not the same story anymore. Not to mention, the change serves no purpose at all. A comment on grammar helps the story be more readable. A comment on characterization helps the story be more believable. But a comment on content... what, it helps the story be more likeable? That's not a good goal to aim for. Whether or not someone likes a story is completely a matter of taste, and when you change it to suit someone's tastes, it stops suiting someone else's tastes. So you just find yourself in a vicious circle.

The comments on content I can accept are only those who suggest things like "more descriptive imagery" or "less sidetracking in the dialogues". These are comments on content, and yet they don't change the story in itself, but merely help shape it up, which is good.

Just my two cents.

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

I agree and don't agree. I remember getting papers back from Profs with many comments and felt just overwhelmed *or* awesome b/c I had something to build of off. Sometimes I'd want it, sometimes I wouldn't. I hated it when I get an A and there were no comments. Othertimes I glazed over it and didn't want to know how badly I messed up.

On these boards sometimes I just write quick little bits because I am not a writer and I am not good at expressing my opinion/feelings or rather not awake or brave enough - whether it being bad or good! I know I won’t be happy with this post. I can never get my feelings across correctly. I sometimes get a bit intimidated by the in-depth comments. That can make me I feel a bit...pathetic writing just a bit or something lengthy for the stupid fear that someone may go "that was lame" or "what was she talking about?". Some people are just pros at that! Oh and RL can be like sticky gum on the bottom of one’s shoe and cannot allow longer thoughtful posting. I have tried to save it for later or even starting up a word file with the hopes of adding and posting later - it never works for me.

I know that is dumb (the whole part about being intimidated by A+ posts), but I can't help what I feel at time after I've had a long day. At the moment I am hyper as I had a grande caramel macchiato from Starbucks and an awesome huge chocolate chunk cookie from the Safeway bakery. Oooooh sugar and caffeine after midnight. I’m going to regret this tomorrow!!!

I wish I could write insightful documentary, but for a non-writer and more of a person that is better at expressing their creativity/thoughts/feelings brought on by a work of fiction through other methods of expression that do not include writing. Yes I’ve tried to post a photograph of something I’ve done in reaction to a fic, but it didn’t work out or I was to shy to.

Once I wrote a post on another board about a story. Nothing mean at all! I then received an e-mail from the author who was not happy with my comments despite other people asking me to help them with their story after I posted the ... post :p So I guess that means I'm a little shy now too. Gee one knock on my head and I’m down for the rest of the fight. Good grief.

I agree.

I really enjoy your stories ccmalo. If I see your name next to a new fic up, I jump at it. I’ll be a little hesitant to leave FDK now though. If I do leave something for you, I’ll try to leave something insightful. I often just read fiction and let it drag me along. I don’t think or feel unless it provokes it and even if I feel something I go "okay Roo now think of SOMETHING to say...c'mon!!!! <silence from the brain>"

I know you said “Now I do agree that no comment should be all "cons". Of course! “ but ugh…

If a story left me empty or confused, I wouldn’t leave a comment expressing that as I think it would just be me who felt that way Just look at how scrambled this post is! My friends tell me I need to make up my mind and form an opinion; I’m too all over the place.

As for the whole death fic thing , it made me split into two. Well of course not physically, but such a physical splitting does try to occur when I come home at lunch (from work) to read a fic and then have to leave to go back. My hands grip the screen, but my legs are getting ready to scamper away. Advil soon reaches my hands soon after this fight. *cough* Eek tangent - okay what was I going on about? Oh yeah. Sometimes I love to watch the opinions and comments bounce off of the posters. Other times I got a bit sad and intimidated and quickly leave the thread. I’ve avoided it lately because it makes me sad. I think I’m just a bit sensitive at the moment. *groan* But it’s cool that people feel so strongly about something and feel safe enough to express their opinion. I would hate a board that didn’t allow that.

Sometimes I wish it wasn't in the FDK thread to a real indepth level. But whatever. I'm regressing to my pathetic teenage days of the last decade, whatever.

Sometimes when I see the issue brought up again I just groan and leave, but I know there is always someone new and would like to rehash it. I know I have embarassingly brought up old stuff.

I like death -fics, waffy ones, etc! The more stories that come out the more these boards will stay alive. I welcome all. Some may disturb me or make me giddy due to its waffiness. Move me, make me feel, make me think or just make me have fuzzies in my heart. Sometimes I read to escape the world, sometimes I come here to make up for what it lacks or rather what I lack. RL is too scary sometimes. Fic may parallel it and make me sad whether I like it or not who knows! Sometimes it can be a therapy. Thanks to those who stories helped me through the rough spots. I think I like the wide range b/c I don’t get excitement in my life. Is there a place where I can sign up for one?

Go get ‘em writers. Keep going!!! Keep posting all!!!!

hmmm, but take care of your creations and grow off of them.

I still feel like a newbie and can’t believe I’m still writing this. I actually ate two big chocolate chunk cookies, so I’m really hyper. I’m lucky I took a holiday day tomorrow. Is anyone still with me? I think I hear groaning.

EDIT - Man, I didn't describe the vibe I'm feeling very well. Stepping away from the keyboard and sticking with the mouse.

cc said:
And Caroline responded:
Despite Caroline's logic, I do identify with CC's remark. But it's not because I don't understand that these are fictional characters. I generally (in my whopping one month of residence in FoLC-land) don't read deathfic because I can too easily imagine what it would be like to suffer that myself. I did read Terry's fic and I enjoyed it, but it did bring me "down" because I couldn't help but picture myself in a similar situation (causing my husband's death) and therefore feel just a faint brushing of the emotions associated with that. I know there are some people who can distance themselves from the emotion in a story, and I admire that. But I can't, and so I appreciate warnings on deathfic that allow me to choose whether to read it based on how I am feeling that day. Also, as someone else said, fanfic is a fun escape, and those emotions aren't fun for me. But that's just me. I think it would be a great loss to all of us if our authors stopped posting stories with so many diverse plotlines, including deathfic. This would be a boring place to visit if all the stories were the same. I hope no one here feels that they should only post their story if it is WAFFy.

Constructive criticsm is great and definitely more interesting for an author to read in a FDK thread. But if all anyone wants to say about my story is "cute, I liked it," I would rather them say that then nothing at all. That's mostly the type of responses I got on my story, and it made me feel good to know people enjoyed it enough to bother commenting even if it didn't provoke an insightful response.

Agreed.

Of course, the original point of this particular thread was whether or not conversation just like this is appropriate in a FDK thread. The answer is no. However, I imagine that the person who starts the drift probably doesn't do it intentionally. And then another finds it interesting and responds. I suppose each of us should take responsibility for standing up, for lack of a better phrase, before it gets out of hand and starting a new thread for that conversation in this forum so the FDK can actually be an FDK. But if no one does that then it's kind of difficult to go back later and complain about it.

By the way, on the point of newbies asking questions, what does RL mean?

RL is Real Life.

I just got caught up on this interesting discussion. I don't have much to add, but it certains warms the cockles of my Moderator's heart to see things being discussed so cordially and pleasantly.

Yvonne

Bonjour

I agree with YConnell, but I guess after having a too long of a night with my family I feel a bit sad that my little comments are not that great. By y'all.

Roo!

Don't make me come over there and smack you! All comments are great. Lengthy ones are nice, but as someone else pointed out, it's wonderful just to know that someone is reading the story and cared enough to hit "post reply".

I've never thought you were a one-liner kind of poster. It seems to me like you always have something noteworthy to point out.

So I hope you're just being ironic and not serious.

A question. I sometimes (well fairly often ) get into discussions that only has the fic as a starting point so I just wonder do authors find this irritating? (Speaking for myself I would be happy if something I wrote sparked a discussion of say morality or the nature of love, but perhaps this isn't how most authors sees it?)

To me thread drift becomes a nuisiance when it starts to span several pages but that is seldom a danger here.

Arawn, since the feedback thread which was "hijacked" was mine, I think I can give you my two cents worth. I don't mind discussion of the themes of my stories, as long as the discussion begins with the story and not with some poster's opinion of whether or not the story should have ever been written, especially if the poster hasn't even bothered to read the story. I don't mind if folks read a deathfic warning and tell me that they won't read this particular story, because that means they at least opened the post despite seeing my name on it. Not everyone likes sad stories, and that's perfectly okay. I don't like certain kinds of stories either, but others do. Does that make me right and the others wrong? No. It means we're different. And that's not only okay, that's really great. It means we have a whole palette of excellent stories to choose from.

I also don't mind if the discussion grows beyond a single page, as long as the discussion is about the story or the theme or some variation of what's been written. The thing that bugs me is when a poster makes some statement about the story that comes not from what's been posted, but comes from his/her own particular way of looking at Lois and Clark and the mythos that's grown up around them. For example, there have been stories about the fallout from Clark "killing" Johnny Corbin as Metallo. Not everyone agrees with the conclusions drawn in those stories, but that doesn't mean the authors are wrong to present them, as long as everybody remembers that opionions are like armpits and everybody has a couple of them.

(Slight thread hijacking here.)

The problem that I have with assigning Clark the blame for Corbin's death is two-fold. One, Corbin was still alive after Clark melted his legs. He was immobile and malfunctioning, yes, but not dead. He didn't actually die until Vale pulled the Kryptonite out of his chest.

And that brings me to my second point. Johnny Corbin had been mortally wounded and already would have been dead had he not been transplanted (without his consent, mind you) into that robotic body. At that point, he was no longer fully human, and his brain was existing on life support. No heart, no digestive system, no warmth to his metal skin, nothing but his brain. Lucy quickly realized he wasn't human anymore. Vale's removal of the Kryptonite was little different from someone unplugging a respirator or external heart pump on a quadraplegic patient. It's killing, I agree, but Superman didn't do it. Vale did.

And I'm sure someone will disagree with me, maybe even several someones.

(We now return you to your regularly scheduled feedback.)

Anyway, I'd rather have feedback that's a little off the subject than none at all. If someone cares enough to type out his or her reactions to something I've written, I'm going to read it. I may be thrilled, I may be bummed, I may wonder what that person was tripping on, but I'd still rather have it than not.

Oooh, nicely written Terry! And I wholeheartedly agree (even about the Johnny Corbin thing).

Thanks for sharing and for not being upset about your thread being hijacked.

Just my 2 cents.

P.S. - Loved the armpits comment. I have a saying similiar to that, here goes: "Opinions are like noses, everyone has one, but some are bigger and some smell more than others".

Tee hee.

I see what you're saying and I kind of agree because I think that there's a lot to be said for internal consistensy (what works or doesn't work within a specific fic as opposed to a person's opinion which prejudices them right off the bat). But to play devil's advocate, I don't know how conscious one is of how much one's personal take on LnC and the mythos around them has ingrained itself in the way one reads. It begs the question, for better or worse, to what extent do authors have a say in how their story is read?

Succinctly put, Terry! That's exactly how I feel about it.

It it is nice to know that you've written something that has everyone thinking or even disagreeing.

Unfortunately, you can't control how someone is going to read or interpret your story. Everyone views L/C and the situations they find themselves in through a lens unique to the reader. I guess you could make the argument that, as an author, if you just left no room for interpretation and absolutely stated what the story meant you could "control" people's views. I think half the fun of reading is if the writing is ambiguous enough to allow you to draw your own conclusions. Sometimes I'd rather make my own assumptions and be surprised when, later in the story, I realize how wrong I read it. As long as I can see where the author was always leading me to that point, that is.

And Terry, I never thought Clark killed Johnny. Like you said, he was on life support and Clark wasn't the one who pulled the plug.

Sue

wandering a bit off topic here

Not sure which fics Terry is referring to, but I'm one of those people who has written about this issue, although in a different way from what Terry has described.

What I tired to do was to present the issue from several points of view, imagining how different L & C characters would react to Corbin's death - so Clark, Mayson, Lois, Perry, even the District Attorney, all had a different way of looking at the same event - was there a crime? I tried to have each react and explore the issue in a way that was consistent with his/her character as I thought they were presented in the show (excpet the DA whom we never saw). I don't think any one of the opinions or reactions came across as "right" or "wrong" so to speak. At least I hope not.

Anyway 5 opinions (including a version of Terry's) of one event in one story.

Is this hijacking this thread, btw? If so, apologies.

c.

Carol, if the previous comments are thread hijacking, it's my fault because I started it.

I just re-read "Yesterday Upon The Stair" so I could be completely familiar with it, and I agree that the characters in your story reacted consistently with the characters presented in the series. The only niggle I would have was the execssive self-doubt Clark displayed, but since his self-doubt is almost fanon anyway, we're talking more about a preference than anything else.

And I had forgotten just what a good job you did with all the plot elements in that story. I still believe that Mayson was partly motivated by her dislike of Superman, but as I said before, that's consistent with the series. I'm not sure the "intervening act" argument would have held up in court and against a good defense counsel, but that's also something that would differ between jurisdictions (and between authors). It would have been interesting to read your take on Clark's trial.

Okay, blatant hi-jacking here.
But I wanted to respond to Terry's comment.

Terry, absolutely, that was her motivation. For her, "The Law" was what was most important; Superman didn't follow procedure and as such he undermined the law.

Define "good". Then there's the whole matter of jury selection etc. (have just watched the first episode of "Justice" and am now recalling "Runaway Jury" and well....

Clark's trial: in a way i sort of attempted to do that within the story - Clark's introspection, Perry's defense of Superman, Lois's probing, the phone-in radio show, all the media coverage, etc. But, of course, that's not a real trial. (or is it? )

Mayson wanted to charge Superman with criminal negligence, not with murder. (the 'intervening act' argument here) So why didn't I write the actual trial? Avoidance behaviour - too lazy to research all the details about American court procedure, etc. Also, I'm not sure I had a "take" - it was the issue I wanted to explore, look at it from all sides.

That Superman does not kill has always been part of the Superman mythos (and a controversial one here, I know ). When I first watched the episode, I was horrified both at Corbin's death and by the look on Superman's face -the whole thing seemed, to me, to contradict what Superman was (or believed he was).

Thank-you for taking an interest in my story, Terry

c.