Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Related Hijacking a fdk thread

I have to say, I'm rather disappointed to see a fdk thread become yet ANOTHER discussion about death-fics. Seriously, the horse is dead, and has been flogged to tiny shreds. If this conversation must be rehashed again (and I'm not sure why it does, since it seems everyone who has an opinion on the topic (including me, to be sure) has expressed it at least two or three times), a fdk thread is not the place.

Posting a fic like this is extremely brave, given the current environment on this board. (An environment that has made it a place that I personally am far less inclined to visit.) If it were me, I would be a bit nervous about whether I would get much fdk, or whether people would just skip my deathfic. Imagine seeing the number of messages in the thread, and then opening it to find fewer than half of the posts actual fdk.

I thought the warning at the top of the story was extremely respectful of those who have expressed not wanting to read deathfics. It's really a shame that equal respect for the fic's author could not have been shown.

I'm curious as to which story you are speaking.


I'm also curious about this. Do you find the boards hostile? I know folks have not been happy that my current story does not have an alive and well Lois in it, but I really haven't felt hostiliy, per se. Just curious as to your feelings about the environment since you've been on here for a very long time.

I for one will read any well written story. My biggest reason for not reading a story does not involve a character being dead. My biggest reason is that when the writer has so little respect for the readers that they can't even bother to try to double check things like... oh, punctuation. I don't mean minor things. I mean when the punctuation and grammar is so bad that it's like torture trying to read it. I think anyone writing a story with an line like for example /He is going to the store. / that they should have enough good sense to know that /he is goin to te stor / is not correct. I've decided that there are too many other good stories for me to waste my time. If I start reading a story and the first few paragraphs have multiple such examples, I stop reading it. Deathfic or not - if the writer takes the real time to write a story then I will endeavor to read it. Of course, time restraints prevent me from reading them all.

Anyway, you are right. I think readers have guts to post a deathfic and if they can give me their time to give me a story that they have bothered to edit then I will try my utmost to read it.

I do like knowing what I'm getting into though. I just read a story that I really liked but I thought it was mostly comedy - then WHAM! - death right out of the blue without any warnings.

Bravo for your post!

I didn't find the environment of the boards hostile at all, even if I have only been hanging out here for a month. Maybe that also explains why I don't mind the discussion that ensued on deathfic. Perhaps the fdk was not the place for it (and my apologies to the writer--I mentioned in my second post that I'd be willing to delete/move it or basically be understanding of what the mods decide), but all the same it would be a boring board if subjects were dropped just because they had been discussed previously.

Also, I thought people were pretty respectful to the writer, all I read were compliments and general comments on the genre--nothing that could be construed as disrespectful other than not discussing the fic itself in length in some posts (which I mentioned previously). That's the only point I'll concede although I do think that the discussion of the fic as a _type_ of deathfic (aka cc malo's comment) was appropriate and interesting.

A fic is never just a fic, it's never a flat piece of writing that one reacts to for itself. Being 'fan'fiction assumes a previous relationship to it's original story, a relationship of interpretation. The line between what is discussing the fic and discussing the interpretation that ties the fic to its 'origin' is very blurry. If people cross it I don't think it's something that should be considered disrespectful. That's a really strong word to use.

But what really disturbs me is the first part of the original post in this thread. I know that there are many veterans, so to speak, in this board--but does that mean that us newbies (and anyone with an opinion about a much discussed topic) should just keep quiet and stop posting for fear that a topic we might have an opinion has been discussed before? See, it's having to think of questions like that that really makes the environment on the board not so positive. At least for a newbie like me.

No. That would definitely be too strong a word.

The two main types of reactions to fic used to be posts encouraging and kudoing those writers/stories they enjoy, and posts offering constructive feedback on those they think have promise but might be better with certain things fixed, tightened up, etc. And some that did both. And I am happy to say that both those types of posts continue to appear.

However, a tendency I am seeing more and more of (it's rather like a creeping plague) is people using comments about a story they like to make snide remarks about other stories. A fair number of these comments are blatant; others are more subtle.

But more than that, I see people pushing for the kinds of stories they like and ONLY the kinds they like. Until about a year ago (I think), I don't remember seeing too many posts suggesting that certain fics, or types of fics, ought to be less prevalent. (And I am not just talking about the deathfic issue. That sort of suggestion has come up on several other, unrelated topics.) I am sure that this will raise ire -- "Aren't I allowed to express my opinion?"

Of course. But when you use that opinion to bludgeon writers into doing things your way . . . well, it makes this board awfully homogeneous. And I happen to think variety is what this fandom should be about. I think it's wonderful that this fandom can produce tearjerkers that make me sob, and sweet waffy stuff that makes me sigh happily. Angst that puts me on the edge of my seat, and vignettes that make me smile. And plenty of fics that are not to my taste. But that's ok, because they ARE to lots of other people's.

*shrug* While I absolutely think constructive criticism has an important place here, the "social engineering" sickens me. If you dislike a certain type of story, that's fine. It's well-known that Tank dislikes kiddy-fic, for example. And yet, I don't recall him ranting about the evils or kid-fic, and how it ought to be stamped out. (Ok, once or twice, but that was clearly a joke. )

He just doesn't read it.

Let me repeat that. It's very, very simple.

HE JUST DOES NOT READ THE TYPE OF FIC HE DOES NOT ENJOY. That's it.

(And just to be very clear, I am NOT talking about requests for warnings. Those seem perfectly reasonable to me.)

That's a fair question. And I think that most of the time that a topic gets revisited, it's perfectly reasonable. Especially if it has been a while. (There are a couple of polls that have been posted 5 or 6 times over the past 3 years. Almost identically each time. I find it extremely amusing -- and I usually vote each time. )

But the fact is that this particular topic has been discussed (to death, if you'll pardon the pun) repeatedly in the past few months. (I think the last time was probably shortly before you joined, which is why you missed it.) Moreover, while you may have been posting on the topic for the first time, very few of the others can make that claim.

And honestly, if another deathfic thread had been posted here in Fanfic Related, I probably would not have said anything. After all, I simply have the option not to read it, right?

But when a repeatedly contentious topic is dragged into a fdk thread, I find that offensive enough to say something. I apologize if my doing so offended you in turn, or made you feel unwelcome. That was certainly not my intent.

Newbies are wonderful! They are the absolute lifeblood of any board, including this one. (And they taste particularly nice with a good Chianti . . . )

Out of curiosity--can mods move posts from fdk to fanfic related in these situations? Or would it be too much of a pain for them to decide when something is irrevocably off-topic? I'm just wondering how things work in these situations.

I don't find the boards hostile, either Alcy....(Wow! Your name is a mouthful!) I was just wandering about Rivka's comment about not hanging around much anymore:

I had not thought about the first part of the post like this:
I have to agree, but I also really liked Rivka's answer about so many people posting the same thing over and over. I'm also a newbie and evidently joined (or re-joined - I don't even remember what I used to call myself) just before you. Some of the stuff here is not dead-horse stuff to all of us. I got the idea though from Rivka that the statements about the deathfic came about because so many people really get upset when one of the main characters dies or is missing. It took me many years to actually post one of my stories, and the thing I saw right off is that some people were pretty uspet with me because Lois is dead in my story. That didn't bother me, though, because I knew it would be controversial and I just kept right on posting...

I don't think Rivka actually meant that people shouldn't keep discussing certain subjects. I got the idea that she meant that the posts about a fic should not turn into a commentary about whether or not the character should be dead in a particular story. Alcyon..., I haven't read your comments in the other story yet, so I hope I'm not insulting you or anyone.

On another note, there are lots of stuff us newbies totally don't comprehend and people shouldn't assume we know what's going on. I've gotten brave and made posts such as 'I'm clueless as to what you are talking about'. Everyone has been really nice about it and usually apologize for assuming people understand what they are talking about.

Thanks for your answer Rivka about the environment on the boards.

I appreciate your other comments too. I can't wait to see what happens with feedback on my story arc when I have the main character actually having sex with someone 'else'. I'm going to write it anyway and might even make it nfic.

I like this comment:
I personally like some of the cross-over fics, but I can see other people saying, "You have got to be kidding." Yes, we all like different things. Isn't that a wonderful thing?

I liked your mention of Tank - I love his stories and Tank endings. Okay, there have been maybe one or two that were really disgusting, but...


I can see how the lines would get blurred about where to post something:

I guess we need to remember that feedback is feedback and other things should be posted elsewhere. Thanks for reminding me.

The moderators can do the above, but I'm assuming if they do that they make of note of such.

I know I have seen posts by the moderators to remind people that a certain post belongs elsewhere.

Again, Rivka, Bravo for iniating this post.

I'm curious to see what people think of what I said about badly written fics (from a grammatical, spelling, and punctuation standpoint.) If anyone makes a comment about that, I'll post a new thread.

We move out of place threads every day - that's part of the job and no problem. However, moving posts is very definitely much more complicated and really a hassle. It's fiddly and time consuming.

So it's not something we'd do as a matter of course and you can probably forget about moving several posts out of a thread en masse.

I would strongly reiterate other posts. There is no embargo on new members discussing previously debated topics. So don't feel you need to look over your shoulder whenever you post. In fact, we pride ourselves on the fact that we're not a forum which leaps all over newbies and gets snarky about such things.

FoLCdom has always been less tolerant of 'controversial' topics than other fandoms. Nothing new there. In fact, I've been rather pleased to see how well the recent spate of deathfics from new authors has been received here. I was expecting much more negative responses to be honest.

Yes, there are a few FoLcs here and there who feel negatively about deathfic and who will say so, but I was both surprised and delighted to see so many postive responses to something a little more dangerous coming along and, on the whole, I've seen more positivity in the current atmosphere than negativity. I think that currently the majority viewpoint is in fact positive and open to exploring 'new' themes.

I've skimmed the thread in question and although I'd agree that adding some actual fdk to some of the debating posts might have been nice (at least from those who'd read the story), I didn't see anything disrespectful to the author. Strong opinions, yes. A few negative opinions, true. But there's positive fdk in there, too. And I didn't read anything saying 'You shouldn't have posted this here'.

And don't forget that we haven't yet heard from Terry. Perhaps he's been enjoying the debate, for all we know. Or not. Personally, I would have been disappointed that my fdk thread didn't contain more fdk. I do have to say that. And it might be a good idea for readers to remember that although debate and discussion leading on from a story is part of the fun of fdk, referring to the story and commenting on it should also be something to consider including when you post. I think people just got carried away with the debate and forgot that, in the main.

As in all things, it comes down to balance. Debate, discuss, question, gripe (politely) . But do balance it with comment, please. And do remember that if the author indicates that they'd rather not answer your questions or debate an issue with you to respect that decision.

I should hope so, too! We were all newbies once. Something that some posters on internet forums seem to forget. I've never seen the need for jumping all over newbies for not instantly knowing everything. It's one of the things which seriously ires me on another forum I frequent. It's rude and unnecessary imo.

So, yes, please do post and ask if there's something you don't understand. That goes for all newbies. And if you don't understand something but don't want to post here on the forum for fear of looking dumb, just mail me or one of the other mods/admins and we'll be happy to answer any questions privately.

LabRat

I like what you said here LabRat, er RabLat, er LabRab (sorry - couldn't resist - in reference to Zoomway round robin):

I have had mostly very good feedback in my story where Lois is dead. Most of the upset has been because Clark is moving on with his life into a new relationship. I decided to put in a little alternate Tank ending with the love interest dying and haunting everyone who hates her. Everbody thought it was a hoot...

LabRat, were you ever really a newbie on this particular board?

Not on this board, no. By the time it was set up I had been part of FoLCdom for some years. But, certainly I was once a newbie to FoLCdom. Boy, when I think back to some of the 'dumb' questions I had to ask then. I distinctly recall having to email Debby Stark to ask what those funny little symbols people kept putting on posts meant.

LabRat

Interesting thread.

It's always great to see newbies on these boards:) For that reason I'm less certain that we should say lets's not discuss a particular topic anymore because it's been talked about before. (because for newbies, when does "before" start?

Also, to ban discussion of a topic would be a lot like saying don't write a another fic on a topic because it's been done before. If it's valid to write a deathfic, it's valid to discuss deathfic, so to speak.

The other thing I want to say, and I know I will be jumped on for this , is that, increasingly, comments on fanfics have become "gushes" and "kudos" only. I perceive a chill on real discussion (pros and cons) of the ideas contained within the fanfic as well as on other aspects of a story.

Is that what writers truly want? (although I do remember how wonderful a "kudo" is )

Now I know negative comments on a fanfic can be hard to take. (just check out all the negative comments on my fic , "the Fact of the Matter", part 1 ) But you also learn from those comments. That was certainly true for other stories I've written as well.

If all the comments on fics are the same, why bother to read them? And more importantly, why take them seriously, if they're all the same?

Now I do agree that no comment should be all "cons". Of course!

Perhaps writers might post, at the beginning of a fic, whether they only want feedback that is totally positive? ( for example, those who say "be kind, this is my first fic")

Also, deathfics are perhaps different from other genres that people dislike because deathfics are emotionally devastating. I'm not sure that people who don't like other genres have that same reaction. I think it's more likely that it's that they find them (cross-overs, kid-fics, whatever) boring or tedious, neither of which are big emotions.

So it's easy to not read those genres if they're on your "no" list. But deathfics - they're like a trainwreck emotionally - you know you shouldn't look, but....

c

Respectfully disagreeing with your generalization here: I don't find them emotionally devastating at all. I fully understand that some other people do and that in this fandom the consensus is that they need to come with a warning, but to me, they're the same as all other fanfic - made up stories about fictional characters - and I evaluate a deathfic using the same criteria I use to evaluate any other story. Is it well-written? Is the characterization good? Does it extrapolate logically from canon? If it accomplishes these things, then I'll probably think it's a good story.

I reserve emotional devastation for things that happen in real life, not for things that happen in fanfic. This is not to say that I belittle people who have stronger responses to stories than I do - just that I don't seem to have the emotional capacity to get *that* worked up about fictional characters.

On the subject of newbies, I appreciate that this forum is open to new members revisiting old topics, especially since I'm a relatively new poster myself. However, I also am of the opinion that lurking for a while before jumping in with both feet is often the better part of wisdom. Newbies should assume some obligation to know the neighborhood before going in and criticising the landscaping.

And that metaphor didn't really work all that well, did it? Oh, well...

This seems to be a trend in a lot of places, not just here. Even when the author indicates that he or she is open to constructive criticism, many readers are reluctant to voice it for fear of being jumped on either by the author or by the author's bestest friends. Personally, I've elected to go the public praise/private criticism route when offering feedback, and that has so far worked well for me. It's a sure thing that I'm not going to bother with the criticism if I don't feel the story is worthwhile, and most authors seem to understand that. But I admit that this approach doesn't do anything to contribute to the discussion here on the boards, and since I find actual discussions about fics and writing fun, I think that's a shame.

ETA, because I lost my train of thought and failed to make my point: I think what was at issue in this case was that a feedback thread was being used for a general discussion that should have been brought over here from the beginning. It included multiple comments from people who hadn't even read the story and, thus, couldn't possibly be offering feedback on it. That has nothing to do with the author being willing to accept constructive criticism or with overall chilling effects. Seems more like a matter of geography to me. General discussions about the merits of deathfic belong here, and discussions about specific fics belong in the FDK threads. I just don't see how anyone can discuss a story he or she hasn't read. If the posters didn't want to read the story but did want to revisit the deathfic issue (because one person's dead horse is another's trusty steed...) this forum provides a place for that conversation.

Caroline

I'm sorry, Carol, but I missed the part where *anyone* suggested the topic be banned.

The point here is that there are appropriate ways and places to have debates, which are more respectful to everyone.

Is it really "increasingly"? I've been around here for a looooong time, and gushes and kudos have always been plentiful (or else I probably wouldn't still be here ). Which is probably because most of us are writing primarily to have fun & share that fun with others, not to make philosophical points about life.

Constructive criticism can be very useful, I agree -- for those of us who really are looking to improve our skills as writers, it's essential -- but saying "there shouldn't be any fics where Lois is dead" or "Clark should never get serious with anyone who's not Lois" isn't particularly constructive, to my mind.

In general, debate threads fit much better in this section -- Fanfic related. Where they are always welcomed, btw, even if some of us have learned to roll our eyes and ignore the topics we're tired of What's old-hat to some of us is brand new to others of us, and there ought to be plenty of room on these boards for everyone.

When it comes to feedback, FOLCdom has always, as far as I can recall, leaned towards the gush/kudo side. If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all. For every suggestion, give four compliments. Etc. I think there's a FAQ on the archive about it. People might still get their feelings hurt (since that's unavoidable in life) but we want to minimize the chances.

I even think I remember you complaining about it, four or five years back

Authors can, of course, request really detailed critiques. Actually, I think that's my point -- to get lots of that sort of feedback, you generally have to volunteer for it. I learned a *ton* about writing in the year we did Season 5, because we all read & commented on each other's stories before they were posted, in a private email list. Some of it was painful, but I had volunteered for it. Most serious writers want to have serious beta-readers, too. The suggestions and analysis are available -- but they generally won't come out unless the author asks for them.

That's the balance I personally (and as an admin) am comfortable with -- err on the side of kindness, not criticism.

PJ

ccmalo wrote:

While I love all feedback I can't say I love it all equally. It's great to get a kudo and know that someone is enjoying the story. It means even more to me if they comment on some element in the story, even if it's to say "I didn't get this".

I've had a FDK thread that briefly turned into a discussion on Superman II, and while I found it amusing on one level, I kind of wondered what that had to do with the story I was telling. I didn't think anything in my story had really sparked that discussion (but maybe I'm living too close to it to see the bigger picture).

Like cc said, I would love to see a discussion on the pros and the cons of whatever story I'm writing. Does it mean that I'll change my plot to suit people? I sincerely doubt it. But I would like to know if I got somebody thinking. Even if it was just them thinking that Lois/Clark would never do/say that! I think we all have a our own personal vision of what the characters are. If I'm straying far from what everyone else believes, it would be good to know that.

I confess, I haven't been reading other people's stories (except the ones I beta). I don't want to inadvertantly steal someone else's idea or phrasing. Once I finish my current story I'm going to take a huge break from writing and start reading. I'm going to wallow in it. And I'm going to try and leave feedback that's honest and insightful.

I lost my husband in an accident almost seven years ago, and I can't say that I would ever seek out deathfic. I can't say that I would ever want to write deathfic. I may have to make an exception, though, and read Terry's story. Sometimes a little catharsis is a good thing.

A healthy, respectful debate on the finer points of a story is always a good thing. IMHO.

Sue

Yes, I did complain to you on irc about that. (Cry on your shoulder as I uncomfortably recall. ) But notice my reference to that in my post above. But you told me, back then, to tough it out, and consider what was being said. I did, and so I learned from those criticisms, and I hope the story which I ultimately wrote was better than it would have been otherwise.

No one used the word "ban". But I inferred that's what Rivka was getting at with this point:
"I'm rather disappointed to see a fdk thread become yet ANOTHER discussion about death-fics. Seriously, the horse is dead, and has been flogged to tiny shreds. If this conversation must be rehashed again (and I'm not sure why it does, since it seems everyone who has an opinion on the topic (including me, to be sure) has expressed it at least two or three times)."

4 positives for every con, eh. That's a bit daunting and gets us back into that bland "gushes only" territory.
How about one for one? Unless 3 examples for 1 positive would be acceptable as 4? And I repeat my suggestion that authors might mention if if they want only the "kudos".

c.

Well said Sue.

I don't have a lot to add to this discussion. I already said a couple of things trying to maintain a somewhat neutral stance on the issue (I don't like heated debates... makes my blood pressure rise).

But I will say that, while I appreciate all types of fdk - the good, the bad, and, yes, even the ugly... I do appreciate it if the really bad, or ugly, is sent privately via e-mail.

I think it can be embarrassing or discouraging for a writer to get nasty fdk on an open thread... it's bad enough to get it at all, but especially where everyone else has access to see it and read it...

I think constructive critism is a very healthy thing, but sometimes it's better if done in private... and maybe even received better as well. The writer might be more likely to take it to heart if they don't feel like they have to justify themselves in front of everyone on the board.

But back to the issue of deathfics... While I personally will never write a deathfic where either Lois or Clark are killed off permanently, with no hope of rectifying the situation... it is definitely someone else's right to do so. And while I do not seek out deathfics to read, because I like to read as an escape and for fun, I do occasionally take a peek at one... especially if the writer is good and people are posting positive fdk.

When I write a fic and thank the writers of the show I put a little line that says - Thank you to the writers because without them we wouldn't have this wonderful world to play in. And that's what we all are doing. Playing. In a world that we didn't create. So who's to say one idea or one storyline is better than another. It's fanon, not canon.

Okay, I think I've babbled on long enough. I will say that I hope that if I ever write anything that makes someone say "what the heck was she thinking" that they'll tell me. I need to know.

Just stepping into clarify what Carol's pointed out, since it reads a little unclear.

Rivka's entire sentence was this:

I don't think she was inferring that the topic be banned or shunned or anything. She's just suggesting that maybe Terry's fdk thread isn't the place to continue the topic. Unless, of course, it's relevant to his story.

Sara

Hey CC, I wouldn't say all feedback is kudos, etc. I had someone tell me they wanted to vomit. She's still reading though.

I personally want to know what people feel. I just wouldn't want the whole thing turned into a discussion about a related topic. But then if it did, I'd at least know that people were at least looking at my story.

I agree with this comment: But sometimes when you have looked and looked and can't find anything... You get my idea.


Yeah, Chief Pam:
My story has just exactly the above. And some people hate it that part of, but they keep reading. (And thank you very much by the way.)

Constructive criticism is good. Nasty cruel feedback isn't. I haven't had any, but I've seen it.

KSaraSara - I love your signature!

Well, I am one of those who helped hijack Terry's feedback thread. Although my first post did indeed contain specific comments on his story, the second was completely in response to comments by others.

Certainly thread "drift" is nothing new in this fandom or anywhere else. Sue pointed out that she saw some in one of her fdk threads, I know that I've read it in others. I remember one topic (at Zoom's boards) that went off-course and the original starter of the thread come on later to complain about it. I've seen it happen on email lists too - you would think it would be less frequent there because you can change the subject heading, but most people don't bother...

Regarding constructive criticism: in one small fandom that I keep my eye on, there has been a story mailing list active for several years. And usually the feedbacks are short gushes encouraging the author to keep posting. But a few months ago, a new member of the group suggested to the author of a new story that the story would be easier to read if she could put a space between paragraphs.

Sounds simple, right? She said it very politely, just as I've seen it here any number of times. It's not a negative comment on the story, just a suggestion to help clean up presentation. Well, the hullabaloo that rose from this remark. You would think that she had told the author never to post such "drivel" again. Yes, it's constructive criticism in that it's not a gush, but a lot of people on that list took it as an insult and an affront.

It's nothing like that over here, but it did get me thinking. For a couple of stories in the past, I've come right out and said that I thought people were acting out of character, based on my interpretations of these characters from the show (and, admittedly, influenced by reading a lot of fanfic). I was very polite - I had all sorts of "for me" "my opinion" "I feel" all over the place, but I tried to state honestly why something in the story wasn't working for me and why.

Well, the authors were always very receptive to my and any other comments about their story. Did they make changes because of my suggestions? Usually not - nor did I expect them to. Would they have preferred that I raise the point in a private email? I don't know - no one ever said anything about it, but perhaps they were in fact cursing me under their breath and wishing that I wouldn't discuss it publicly.

And if they would have preferred such comments to be made privately, I wouldn't have blamed them. I don't write - as many of you know - so I've never felt the terror of putting my "baby" out there for public display. If I had belabored long and hard over a particular paragraph to get the phrasing just how I wanted it, how would I feel if someone came on and said - no matter how politely - that it didn't work very well for them because of... So now, no matter how careful I would be to word it, I would be much more reluctant to say anything that could be construed as negative.

And maybe that's a good thing, or maybe it's not. Because we have had some wonderful discussions about stories - leading to characterizations, etc. - from feedback comments. Sometimes they've started from one person's "this doesn't work for me because" and someone comes in to say, "well, actually, I thought it did work because of". Two different interpretations of the same line - both, perhaps, equally valid. Because we all do interpret things differently - such as the example in Terry's thread with the different way that Carol and CC each viewed a certain line in the story.

I would hate to see such discussions end. Even if I don't always participate, I always enjoy reading them.

Kathy

This I 100% agree with. I found it strange for instance that people would post opinions without reading the story. Regardless of going off-topic, shouldn't the beginning point always be the story?

Commenting on the structure of a story (anything basically that the writer can't change). It's not even the most interesting kind IMHO. I mean if a story is of a genre that someone doesn't like then chances are the reader won't be paying attention to the story, being too up in arms about the fact that he or she does not consider the genre their cup of tea.

Lastly, I feel that debate shouldn't be about convincing so much as about dialogue. Another reason why comments such as "this wouldn't happen" seem rather asinine to me. What's the point of something like that in a fdk thread? All it does is cause tension for the poor writer.

EDIT: I wasn't referring to plot holes or small inaccuracies which are helpful, I'm referring to when someone attacks a specific premise. If that's the main plot, there's little to gain by complaining to the writer about it. Keyword: constructive. Sorry if I was unclear.

I like what alcyonearia0205 said:

You are so right. Look at all the things that have been written about Superman since the 1930's?

Almost any story line should be okay to write about as long as it is well written. Even if it's not something you would like, there is always going to be someone who likes it.

What does IMHO mean??

In My Humble Opinion. You'll also see imo (In My Opinion).

LabRat

Prety much everything I would have said has been said at some point, but this caught my attention...

My only thought was, RL, anyone? I don't know about everyone else, but 2006 completely turned me into a gusher! I used to not like giving feedback unless I could make some specific comments, but now I'm just brain-dead at the end of the day. I haven't noticed if there's an increase or not, but I am starting to notice the token people that I can always count on to write some interesting detailed feedback...

Jen...

KathyM wrote:

Speaking of thread drift...but I just couldn't leave this alone!

Kathy, this is a very nice sentiment, but it strikes me as excessively cautious. It sounds like your comments have pretty consistently been thoughtful and well-intentioned and probably helpful as well. It seems a great shame for you to put a lid on them just because someone sometime might overreact. If that were to happen, I really believe the overreaction would be the author's fault, not yours.

I've already said that as a reader I prefer to offer most criticism privately, via e-mail, and yes, that's partly because I've seen some overreactions to constructive criticism. (Interestingly, nine times out of ten, the overreactions have come from the author's *friends* rather than from the author herself.) It's also because it's easier to have an actual dialogue with the author without the world looking on and commenting, and because my comments often take the form of fiddly nitpicks about grammar and such that don't make for interesting discussion anyway.

As a writer, however, I fully believe that if I post in a public forum, thus tacitly asking for reviews of my work, I need to be prepared to suck it up and graciously deal with whatever criticism comes my way. I absolutely refuse to be an author who relishes the squees and then melts into a heap at the first breath of criticism. If I post it, the readers are welcome to say anything they want to about it. Anything. And no, I don't advertise that, though perhaps I should, but to me it just seems incredibly obvious. If I'm not feeling strong enough to take criticism - yes, even of my beloved paragraph that I labored over for hours - then I'll keep my work tucked safely away on my hard drive where no one can say mean things about it.

I've had this discussion enough times to know that there are strong opinions on the other side of this argument. Please know that I am not condoning flames or blatantly hurtful comments to any author. You're right that it takes guts to put a story out there for public consumption, and I've always tried to respect that and to balance criticism with praise. But I just hate to see a thoughtful reader and reviewer unnecessarily silenced. I think most writers are tougher than you're giving them credit for being and would welcome your comments

Best,

Caroline

Most of the things I want to say have been said. I'm just going to elaborate on what I consider acceptable and what not in a fdk thread:

As CC said, discussing the pros and cons of a fic is great. But the problem, as Rivka points out, is that discussing whether deathfic should be written or not does not belong to the fic's FDK thread. Why? Because being a deathfic is not a pro, or a con. It's a fact that cannot be subject to interpretation, but is only a matter of taste.

Linguistic aspects, such as grammar, syntax and vocabulary, are things a reader can comment on - offer a better alternative for a word, point out unclear sentences, stuff like that. As a whole, educated people tend to agree on linguistic aspects (well, for the most part) and that's why we can accept feedback and criticism on it.

Aspects like characterization, plot consistency etc. can be subject to interpretation. Readers can offer their views on them, and give an opinion of whether it's been done well or not. These aspects quite subjective, but they are aspects one can justify their opinion on, by bringing up examples from the actual show or what have you, depending on what we are discussing. Therefore, feedback and criticism on it is also acceptable.

Now, discussion of the actual nature of the fic is something I think one cannot discuss in a fdk folder. Why? Because it is completely subjective, and, in addition, is not something that should be corrected.

Imagine a comment: "I didn't like this story because it was too WAFFy. There should be a little more angst in it to balance it out."

If you put some more angst, it's not the same story anymore. Not to mention, the change serves no purpose at all. A comment on grammar helps the story be more readable. A comment on characterization helps the story be more believable. But a comment on content... what, it helps the story be more likeable? That's not a good goal to aim for. Whether or not someone likes a story is completely a matter of taste, and when you change it to suit someone's tastes, it stops suiting someone else's tastes. So you just find yourself in a vicious circle.

The comments on content I can accept are only those who suggest things like "more descriptive imagery" or "less sidetracking in the dialogues". These are comments on content, and yet they don't change the story in itself, but merely help shape it up, which is good.

Just my two cents.

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

I agree and don't agree. I remember getting papers back from Profs with many comments and felt just overwhelmed *or* awesome b/c I had something to build of off. Sometimes I'd want it, sometimes I wouldn't. I hated it when I get an A and there were no comments. Othertimes I glazed over it and didn't want to know how badly I messed up.

On these boards sometimes I just write quick little bits because I am not a writer and I am not good at expressing my opinion/feelings or rather not awake or brave enough - whether it being bad or good! I know I won’t be happy with this post. I can never get my feelings across correctly. I sometimes get a bit intimidated by the in-depth comments. That can make me I feel a bit...pathetic writing just a bit or something lengthy for the stupid fear that someone may go "that was lame" or "what was she talking about?". Some people are just pros at that! Oh and RL can be like sticky gum on the bottom of one’s shoe and cannot allow longer thoughtful posting. I have tried to save it for later or even starting up a word file with the hopes of adding and posting later - it never works for me.

I know that is dumb (the whole part about being intimidated by A+ posts), but I can't help what I feel at time after I've had a long day. At the moment I am hyper as I had a grande caramel macchiato from Starbucks and an awesome huge chocolate chunk cookie from the Safeway bakery. Oooooh sugar and caffeine after midnight. I’m going to regret this tomorrow!!!

I wish I could write insightful documentary, but for a non-writer and more of a person that is better at expressing their creativity/thoughts/feelings brought on by a work of fiction through other methods of expression that do not include writing. Yes I’ve tried to post a photograph of something I’ve done in reaction to a fic, but it didn’t work out or I was to shy to.

Once I wrote a post on another board about a story. Nothing mean at all! I then received an e-mail from the author who was not happy with my comments despite other people asking me to help them with their story after I posted the ... post :p So I guess that means I'm a little shy now too. Gee one knock on my head and I’m down for the rest of the fight. Good grief.

I agree.

I really enjoy your stories ccmalo. If I see your name next to a new fic up, I jump at it. I’ll be a little hesitant to leave FDK now though. If I do leave something for you, I’ll try to leave something insightful. I often just read fiction and let it drag me along. I don’t think or feel unless it provokes it and even if I feel something I go "okay Roo now think of SOMETHING to say...c'mon!!!! <silence from the brain>"

I know you said “Now I do agree that no comment should be all "cons". Of course! “ but ugh…

If a story left me empty or confused, I wouldn’t leave a comment expressing that as I think it would just be me who felt that way Just look at how scrambled this post is! My friends tell me I need to make up my mind and form an opinion; I’m too all over the place.

As for the whole death fic thing , it made me split into two. Well of course not physically, but such a physical splitting does try to occur when I come home at lunch (from work) to read a fic and then have to leave to go back. My hands grip the screen, but my legs are getting ready to scamper away. Advil soon reaches my hands soon after this fight. *cough* Eek tangent - okay what was I going on about? Oh yeah. Sometimes I love to watch the opinions and comments bounce off of the posters. Other times I got a bit sad and intimidated and quickly leave the thread. I’ve avoided it lately because it makes me sad. I think I’m just a bit sensitive at the moment. *groan* But it’s cool that people feel so strongly about something and feel safe enough to express their opinion. I would hate a board that didn’t allow that.

Sometimes I wish it wasn't in the FDK thread to a real indepth level. But whatever. I'm regressing to my pathetic teenage days of the last decade, whatever.

Sometimes when I see the issue brought up again I just groan and leave, but I know there is always someone new and would like to rehash it. I know I have embarassingly brought up old stuff.

I like death -fics, waffy ones, etc! The more stories that come out the more these boards will stay alive. I welcome all. Some may disturb me or make me giddy due to its waffiness. Move me, make me feel, make me think or just make me have fuzzies in my heart. Sometimes I read to escape the world, sometimes I come here to make up for what it lacks or rather what I lack. RL is too scary sometimes. Fic may parallel it and make me sad whether I like it or not who knows! Sometimes it can be a therapy. Thanks to those who stories helped me through the rough spots. I think I like the wide range b/c I don’t get excitement in my life. Is there a place where I can sign up for one?

Go get ‘em writers. Keep going!!! Keep posting all!!!!

hmmm, but take care of your creations and grow off of them.

I still feel like a newbie and can’t believe I’m still writing this. I actually ate two big chocolate chunk cookies, so I’m really hyper. I’m lucky I took a holiday day tomorrow. Is anyone still with me? I think I hear groaning.

EDIT - Man, I didn't describe the vibe I'm feeling very well. Stepping away from the keyboard and sticking with the mouse.

cc said:
And Caroline responded:
Despite Caroline's logic, I do identify with CC's remark. But it's not because I don't understand that these are fictional characters. I generally (in my whopping one month of residence in FoLC-land) don't read deathfic because I can too easily imagine what it would be like to suffer that myself. I did read Terry's fic and I enjoyed it, but it did bring me "down" because I couldn't help but picture myself in a similar situation (causing my husband's death) and therefore feel just a faint brushing of the emotions associated with that. I know there are some people who can distance themselves from the emotion in a story, and I admire that. But I can't, and so I appreciate warnings on deathfic that allow me to choose whether to read it based on how I am feeling that day. Also, as someone else said, fanfic is a fun escape, and those emotions aren't fun for me. But that's just me. I think it would be a great loss to all of us if our authors stopped posting stories with so many diverse plotlines, including deathfic. This would be a boring place to visit if all the stories were the same. I hope no one here feels that they should only post their story if it is WAFFy.

Constructive criticsm is great and definitely more interesting for an author to read in a FDK thread. But if all anyone wants to say about my story is "cute, I liked it," I would rather them say that then nothing at all. That's mostly the type of responses I got on my story, and it made me feel good to know people enjoyed it enough to bother commenting even if it didn't provoke an insightful response.

Agreed.

Of course, the original point of this particular thread was whether or not conversation just like this is appropriate in a FDK thread. The answer is no. However, I imagine that the person who starts the drift probably doesn't do it intentionally. And then another finds it interesting and responds. I suppose each of us should take responsibility for standing up, for lack of a better phrase, before it gets out of hand and starting a new thread for that conversation in this forum so the FDK can actually be an FDK. But if no one does that then it's kind of difficult to go back later and complain about it.

By the way, on the point of newbies asking questions, what does RL mean?

RL is Real Life.

I just got caught up on this interesting discussion. I don't have much to add, but it certains warms the cockles of my Moderator's heart to see things being discussed so cordially and pleasantly.

Yvonne

Bonjour

I agree with YConnell, but I guess after having a too long of a night with my family I feel a bit sad that my little comments are not that great. By y'all.

Roo!

Don't make me come over there and smack you! All comments are great. Lengthy ones are nice, but as someone else pointed out, it's wonderful just to know that someone is reading the story and cared enough to hit "post reply".

I've never thought you were a one-liner kind of poster. It seems to me like you always have something noteworthy to point out.

So I hope you're just being ironic and not serious.

A question. I sometimes (well fairly often ) get into discussions that only has the fic as a starting point so I just wonder do authors find this irritating? (Speaking for myself I would be happy if something I wrote sparked a discussion of say morality or the nature of love, but perhaps this isn't how most authors sees it?)

To me thread drift becomes a nuisiance when it starts to span several pages but that is seldom a danger here.

Arawn, since the feedback thread which was "hijacked" was mine, I think I can give you my two cents worth. I don't mind discussion of the themes of my stories, as long as the discussion begins with the story and not with some poster's opinion of whether or not the story should have ever been written, especially if the poster hasn't even bothered to read the story. I don't mind if folks read a deathfic warning and tell me that they won't read this particular story, because that means they at least opened the post despite seeing my name on it. Not everyone likes sad stories, and that's perfectly okay. I don't like certain kinds of stories either, but others do. Does that make me right and the others wrong? No. It means we're different. And that's not only okay, that's really great. It means we have a whole palette of excellent stories to choose from.

I also don't mind if the discussion grows beyond a single page, as long as the discussion is about the story or the theme or some variation of what's been written. The thing that bugs me is when a poster makes some statement about the story that comes not from what's been posted, but comes from his/her own particular way of looking at Lois and Clark and the mythos that's grown up around them. For example, there have been stories about the fallout from Clark "killing" Johnny Corbin as Metallo. Not everyone agrees with the conclusions drawn in those stories, but that doesn't mean the authors are wrong to present them, as long as everybody remembers that opionions are like armpits and everybody has a couple of them.

(Slight thread hijacking here.)

The problem that I have with assigning Clark the blame for Corbin's death is two-fold. One, Corbin was still alive after Clark melted his legs. He was immobile and malfunctioning, yes, but not dead. He didn't actually die until Vale pulled the Kryptonite out of his chest.

And that brings me to my second point. Johnny Corbin had been mortally wounded and already would have been dead had he not been transplanted (without his consent, mind you) into that robotic body. At that point, he was no longer fully human, and his brain was existing on life support. No heart, no digestive system, no warmth to his metal skin, nothing but his brain. Lucy quickly realized he wasn't human anymore. Vale's removal of the Kryptonite was little different from someone unplugging a respirator or external heart pump on a quadraplegic patient. It's killing, I agree, but Superman didn't do it. Vale did.

And I'm sure someone will disagree with me, maybe even several someones.

(We now return you to your regularly scheduled feedback.)

Anyway, I'd rather have feedback that's a little off the subject than none at all. If someone cares enough to type out his or her reactions to something I've written, I'm going to read it. I may be thrilled, I may be bummed, I may wonder what that person was tripping on, but I'd still rather have it than not.

Oooh, nicely written Terry! And I wholeheartedly agree (even about the Johnny Corbin thing).

Thanks for sharing and for not being upset about your thread being hijacked.

Just my 2 cents.

P.S. - Loved the armpits comment. I have a saying similiar to that, here goes: "Opinions are like noses, everyone has one, but some are bigger and some smell more than others".

Tee hee.

I see what you're saying and I kind of agree because I think that there's a lot to be said for internal consistensy (what works or doesn't work within a specific fic as opposed to a person's opinion which prejudices them right off the bat). But to play devil's advocate, I don't know how conscious one is of how much one's personal take on LnC and the mythos around them has ingrained itself in the way one reads. It begs the question, for better or worse, to what extent do authors have a say in how their story is read?

Succinctly put, Terry! That's exactly how I feel about it.

It it is nice to know that you've written something that has everyone thinking or even disagreeing.

Unfortunately, you can't control how someone is going to read or interpret your story. Everyone views L/C and the situations they find themselves in through a lens unique to the reader. I guess you could make the argument that, as an author, if you just left no room for interpretation and absolutely stated what the story meant you could "control" people's views. I think half the fun of reading is if the writing is ambiguous enough to allow you to draw your own conclusions. Sometimes I'd rather make my own assumptions and be surprised when, later in the story, I realize how wrong I read it. As long as I can see where the author was always leading me to that point, that is.

And Terry, I never thought Clark killed Johnny. Like you said, he was on life support and Clark wasn't the one who pulled the plug.

Sue

wandering a bit off topic here

Not sure which fics Terry is referring to, but I'm one of those people who has written about this issue, although in a different way from what Terry has described.

What I tired to do was to present the issue from several points of view, imagining how different L & C characters would react to Corbin's death - so Clark, Mayson, Lois, Perry, even the District Attorney, all had a different way of looking at the same event - was there a crime? I tried to have each react and explore the issue in a way that was consistent with his/her character as I thought they were presented in the show (excpet the DA whom we never saw). I don't think any one of the opinions or reactions came across as "right" or "wrong" so to speak. At least I hope not.

Anyway 5 opinions (including a version of Terry's) of one event in one story.

Is this hijacking this thread, btw? If so, apologies.

c.

Carol, if the previous comments are thread hijacking, it's my fault because I started it.

I just re-read "Yesterday Upon The Stair" so I could be completely familiar with it, and I agree that the characters in your story reacted consistently with the characters presented in the series. The only niggle I would have was the execssive self-doubt Clark displayed, but since his self-doubt is almost fanon anyway, we're talking more about a preference than anything else.

And I had forgotten just what a good job you did with all the plot elements in that story. I still believe that Mayson was partly motivated by her dislike of Superman, but as I said before, that's consistent with the series. I'm not sure the "intervening act" argument would have held up in court and against a good defense counsel, but that's also something that would differ between jurisdictions (and between authors). It would have been interesting to read your take on Clark's trial.

Okay, blatant hi-jacking here.
But I wanted to respond to Terry's comment.

Terry, absolutely, that was her motivation. For her, "The Law" was what was most important; Superman didn't follow procedure and as such he undermined the law.

Define "good". Then there's the whole matter of jury selection etc. (have just watched the first episode of "Justice" and am now recalling "Runaway Jury" and well....

Clark's trial: in a way i sort of attempted to do that within the story - Clark's introspection, Perry's defense of Superman, Lois's probing, the phone-in radio show, all the media coverage, etc. But, of course, that's not a real trial. (or is it? )

Mayson wanted to charge Superman with criminal negligence, not with murder. (the 'intervening act' argument here) So why didn't I write the actual trial? Avoidance behaviour - too lazy to research all the details about American court procedure, etc. Also, I'm not sure I had a "take" - it was the issue I wanted to explore, look at it from all sides.

That Superman does not kill has always been part of the Superman mythos (and a controversial one here, I know ). When I first watched the episode, I was horrified both at Corbin's death and by the look on Superman's face -the whole thing seemed, to me, to contradict what Superman was (or believed he was).

Thank-you for taking an interest in my story, Terry

c.